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(Mother Jones)   Prepare to learn why police unions have so much power. Also bring some protective garments knowing that once you read this you could be subjected to a beatdown for knowing   (motherjones.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Police, white police officer, Trade union, help of his union, Constable, Police brutality, Police officer, police department  
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2891 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Aug 2020 at 6:25 PM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-13 10:41:28 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-13 11:39:59 AM  
In before DARRR UNIONS BAD DUHRHURERR
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2020-08-13 3:45:02 PM  
Arbitrators shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that relate to law enforcement powers. Let arbitrators decide questions like whether the beer in the lunch room is cold enough. Let them decide whether a deputy assistant ditch digger should have been promoted to asssitant ditch digger.
 
2020-08-13 5:39:08 PM  

ZAZ: Arbitrators shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that relate to law enforcement powers.


This is the problem. You can criticize police unions all you want, but they're virtually powerless without civilian arbitrators and civilian review boards who constantly reduce or overturn discipline. The levels of appeal in the police disciplinary process once served a valid purpose in preventing politicization of discipline, but it's evolved into a means of protecting bad cops.

You'll never get rid of police unions, but you can pressure city leaders to stop bargaining never ending appeals into police contracts. Alternatively, take to power of discipline out of the hands of civilian arbitrators and review boards. The courts are sufficient to overturn discipline that is illegal or biased.
 
2020-08-13 5:50:44 PM  
If taking a life may be required as part of your job description, you should not have a union

Police should not have unions
 
2020-08-13 5:52:23 PM  

cman: If taking a life may be required as part of your job description, you should not have a union

Police should not have unions


ADDENDUM

FTA

All of which can make officers feel invincible when they commit acts of violence. A forthcoming research paper from the University of Victoria in Canada found that after police officers formed unions-generally between the 1950s and the 1980s-there was a "substantial" increase in police killings of Black and Brown people in the United States. Within a decade of gaining collective bargaining rights, officers killed an additional 60 to 70 civilians of all races per year collectively, compared with previous years, an increase that researchers say may be linked to officers' belief that their unions would protect them from prosecution. A working paper from the University of Chicago found that complaints of violent misconduct by Florida sheriffs' offices jumped 40 percent after deputies there won collective bargaining rights in 2003.

Police unions, like all unions, were designed to protect their own. But unlike other labor unions, they represent workers with the state-sanctioned power to use deadly force. And they have successfully bargained for more job security than what's afforded to most workers, security they can often rely on even after committing acts of violence that would likely get anyone else fired or locked up.

So I will say it once more: POLICE SHOULD NOT HAVE UNIONS
 
2020-08-13 6:28:54 PM  

CruiserTwelve: You'll never get rid of police unions


Challenge farking accepted.

Abolish police unions.  Abolish the farking police.
 
2020-08-13 6:29:11 PM  
Policing in this country is broken and obviously always has been.

If you find you're still not angry enough after reading the linked story, try this:

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/​v​iewcontent.cgi?article=1293&context=mj​rl

It's a pdf. 83 pages, but I recommend reading it. You forget how many of these incidents there have been until you read a listing of them. And I'm guessing this isn't close to all of them, they're just the ones that made the news.
 
2020-08-13 6:29:28 PM  

cman: So I will say it once more: POLICE SHOULD NOT HAVE UNIONS


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2020-08-13 6:31:44 PM  

Shaggy_C: cman: So I will say it once more: POLICE SHOULD NOT HAVE UNIONS

This message brought to you by:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x220]


"You have twenty seconds to comply!"
 
2020-08-13 6:34:00 PM  
Police: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)
Youtube Wf4cea5oObY
 
2020-08-13 6:34:51 PM  

CruiserTwelve: ZAZ: Arbitrators shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that relate to law enforcement powers.

This is the problem. You can criticize police unions all you want, but they're virtually powerless without civilian arbitrators and civilian review boards who constantly reduce or overturn discipline. The levels of appeal in the police disciplinary process once served a valid purpose in preventing politicization of discipline, but it's evolved into a means of protecting bad cops.

You'll never get rid of police unions, but you can pressure city leaders to stop bargaining never ending appeals into police contracts. Alternatively, take to power of discipline out of the hands of civilian arbitrators and review boards. The courts are sufficient to overturn discipline that is illegal or biased.


Actually, it is possible depending on the state.  My town somehow gets away with zero unions for municipal employees.  No worker unions, no police unions, no firefighter unions.  I am not sure how they managed to pull that off.

And of course union contracts are always subject to renewal, at which point both parties can negotiate terms for the next contract.
 
2020-08-13 6:36:01 PM  
Also, until all this shiat went down, I had no idea how farking racist the Minneapolis PD was or why. It's not that I thought they were particularly progressive, but I had no idea how bad they really are. But then, I'm white. I could afford to be clueless like that. I'm a tiny white woman, few cops will ever see me as a threat.
 
2020-08-13 6:39:39 PM  
Has anyone pointed out yet that police unions are not trade unions?
 
2020-08-13 6:40:32 PM  

Shaggy_C: cman: So I will say it once more: POLICE SHOULD NOT HAVE UNIONS

This message brought to you by:
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That logo makes me uncomfortable and a little bit afraid. I'm not sure I want to know if it represents some kind of foundation in support of sexual perversion.
 
2020-08-13 6:41:02 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Also, until all this shiat went down, I had no idea how farking racist the Minneapolis PD was or why. It's not that I thought they were particularly progressive, but I had no idea how bad they really are. But then, I'm white. I could afford to be clueless like that. I'm a tiny white woman, few cops will ever see me as a threat.


It's not just Minneapolis.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents​/​402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infilt​ration.pdf
 
2020-08-13 6:41:29 PM  

Iggie: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Also, until all this shiat went down, I had no idea how farking racist the Minneapolis PD was or why. It's not that I thought they were particularly progressive, but I had no idea how bad they really are. But then, I'm white. I could afford to be clueless like that. I'm a tiny white woman, few cops will ever see me as a threat.

It's not just Minneapolis.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/​402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infilt​ration.pdf


Yes, I know that. Thanks.
 
2020-08-13 6:42:02 PM  
Of course if the article is about the Minneapolis cops, you gotta talk about Michael Sauro.

That man should be in prison, not working as a cop.
 
2020-08-13 6:42:52 PM  

cman: cman: If taking a life may be required as part of your job description, you should not have a union

Police should not have unions

ADDENDUM

FTA

All of which can make officers feel invincible when they commit acts of violence. A forthcoming research paper from the University of Victoria in Canada found that after police officers formed unions-generally between the 1950s and the 1980s-there was a "substantial" increase in police killings of Black and Brown people in the United States. Within a decade of gaining collective bargaining rights, officers killed an additional 60 to 70 civilians of all races per year collectively, compared with previous years, an increase that researchers say may be linked to officers' belief that their unions would protect them from prosecution. A working paper from the University of Chicago found that complaints of violent misconduct by Florida sheriffs' offices jumped 40 percent after deputies there won collective bargaining rights in 2003.

Police unions, like all unions, were designed to protect their own. But unlike other labor unions, they represent workers with the state-sanctioned power to use deadly force. And they have successfully bargained for more job security than what's afforded to most workers, security they can often rely on even after committing acts of violence that would likely get anyone else fired or locked up.

So I will say it once more: POLICE SHOULD NOT HAVE UNIONS


It shouldn't be so black and white. A police union should exist to perform collective bargaining for pay. Policing is definitely one profession where people should be incentivized to "perform" more. In an ideal world, there would naturally be zero crime and zero need for police. So in order to get there, it makes no sense to pay police officers for more arrests. So fair pay and fair working conditions are reasonable union-led agreements.

But police conduct during the job should be spelled out and when misconduct occurs, there should be proper reprisals, up to and including criminal charges, clawback of pensions, prevention from working anywhere else in a similar job or role.

One other thing that can help is remove ALL police input into the hiring process. Sure, they can specify the criteria to hire, insofar as their requirements, which should be only a part of other requirements that the city and perhaps the neighborhood can apply (none of which the police has any say about). When hired, the newly hired is then placed in the precinct that is needed.
 
2020-08-13 6:45:26 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Iggie: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Also, until all this shiat went down, I had no idea how farking racist the Minneapolis PD was or why. It's not that I thought they were particularly progressive, but I had no idea how bad they really are. But then, I'm white. I could afford to be clueless like that. I'm a tiny white woman, few cops will ever see me as a threat.

It's not just Minneapolis.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/​402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infilt​ration.pdf

Yes, I know that. Thanks.


If I came across as one, I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass.  It's just that there are still quite a few people out there that have no idea that the FBI has been trying to warn us about this for over a decade.
 
2020-08-13 6:45:44 PM  
Here's another great one from Minneapolis:

Cops who raided wrong house honored
Eight Minneapolis police officers who raided the wrong house last year have been honored for their valor - and that has outraged a family that was shot at multiple times by the officers.
 
2020-08-13 6:46:47 PM  
The Moral to this story:

They are public employee unions.  They are solely there to fark you, the public.  Disband them all.

It doesn't matter if its cop, teachers or the IRS, Unions are going to Union.  As is screw over there boss for there own gain.  And don't forget who the boss is:

You
 
2020-08-13 6:47:33 PM  
If arbitrators make it impossible to fire problem officers (or force the rehiring of fired ones) cities should take a page from the NYC Dept. of Education. Since it's impossible to fire teachers there, the bad ones get sent to the "rubber room". Eight hours a day, sitting in a waiting room. You can read, but no work of any kind. Until you retire. Or, you can quit anytime you want; there's the door.

Make these cops show up for roll call and then sit in the station house all day doing absolutely nothing.
 
2020-08-13 6:48:16 PM  
 
2020-08-13 6:51:22 PM  

Iggie: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Iggie: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Also, until all this shiat went down, I had no idea how farking racist the Minneapolis PD was or why. It's not that I thought they were particularly progressive, but I had no idea how bad they really are. But then, I'm white. I could afford to be clueless like that. I'm a tiny white woman, few cops will ever see me as a threat.

It's not just Minneapolis.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/​402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infilt​ration.pdf

Yes, I know that. Thanks.

If I came across as one, I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass.  It's just that there are still quite a few people out there that have no idea that the FBI has been trying to warn us about this for over a decade.


No harm, no foul. People have been trying to warn us about it for longer than a decade. Rage Against the Machine came out with "Killing in the Name" in 1992. 28 years ago. And of course, people of color have been talking about police brutality for as long as there have been police here.

And we see how police respond: Much like their hero, President Useless Asshole. Whining about being held accountable and enraged about not being given the respect they think they deserve.
 
2020-08-13 6:52:03 PM  

Flying Vermin: The Moral to this story:

They are public employee unions.  They are solely there to fark you, the public.  Disband them all.

It doesn't matter if its cop, teachers or the IRS, Unions are going to Union.  As is screw over there boss for there own gain.  And don't forget who the boss is:

You


I can only assume that you had no teachers in your immediate family.  I'm not saying teacher's unions don't have their problems, but teachers' lives would be 4000% more hell than they already are without their unions.
 
2020-08-13 6:54:39 PM  

CruiserTwelve: You'll never get rid of police unions


I dunno... has anyone tried a shiat-ton of C4?  That would probably do it.
 
2020-08-13 6:55:24 PM  

austerity101: Flying Vermin: The Moral to this story:

They are public employee unions.  They are solely there to fark you, the public.  Disband them all.

It doesn't matter if its cop, teachers or the IRS, Unions are going to Union.  As is screw over there boss for there own gain.  And don't forget who the boss is:

You

I can only assume that you had no teachers in your immediate family.  I'm not saying teacher's unions don't have their problems, but teachers' lives would be 4000% more hell than they already are without their unions.


AFSCME is pretty good for protecting workers who deal with streets, parks, facilities, and utilities.  Along with office workers at city halls.
 
2020-08-13 6:57:11 PM  

edmo: [Fark user image 250x378]


Obviously false.

Republicans have absolutely no problems with hypocrisy, because they actually believe that Holy Authority should be allowed to play by a different set of rules. One set that protects Holy Authority, one that binds the serfs.
 
2020-08-13 6:57:21 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Policing in this country is broken and obviously always has been.

If you find you're still not angry enough after reading the linked story, try this:

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/v​iewcontent.cgi?article=1293&context=mj​rl

It's a pdf. 83 pages, but I recommend reading it. You forget how many of these incidents there have been until you read a listing of them. And I'm guessing this isn't close to all of them, they're just the ones that made the news.


Here's the first of a 6 part series that goes a long way to explaining how we got here in regards to policing.  I try to keep up with this shiat and was astonished how much was under my radar. They just did a 2 parter on Border Patrol that was....nauseating. 

Behind the Police: Slavery, Mass Murder, and the Birth of American Policing
 
2020-08-13 7:00:11 PM  

CruiserTwelve: ZAZ: Arbitrators shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that relate to law enforcement powers.

This is the problem. You can criticize police unions all you want, but they're virtually powerless without civilian arbitrators and civilian review boards who constantly reduce or overturn discipline. The levels of appeal in the police disciplinary process once served a valid purpose in preventing politicization of discipline, but it's evolved into a means of protecting bad cops.

You'll never get rid of police unions, but you can pressure city leaders to stop bargaining never ending appeals into police contracts. Alternatively, take to power of discipline out of the hands of civilian arbitrators and review boards. The courts are sufficient to overturn discipline that is illegal or biased.


Soldiers don't have a union; why should police?
 
2020-08-13 7:01:30 PM  
Because you wouldn't have weekends without unions, or 40-hour work weeks, and 12-year-olds would be working on the coal mines without unions, and you'd be required to spend your lunch break washing the boss's Mercedes, and ... and... something, something about evil capitalists exploiting the proletariat ...

Now pick up that can and say "Thank you, sir."  We'll have no criticism of unions on Fark.
 
2020-08-13 7:08:08 PM  

austerity101: Flying Vermin: The Moral to this story:

They are public employee unions.  They are solely there to fark you, the public.  Disband them all.

It doesn't matter if its cop, teachers or the IRS, Unions are going to Union.  As is screw over there boss for there own gain.  And don't forget who the boss is:

You

I can only assume that you had no teachers in your immediate family.  I'm not saying teacher's unions don't have their problems, but teachers' lives would be 4000% more hell than they already are without their unions.


Same could be said for Cops.
 
2020-08-13 7:13:14 PM  

gameshowhost: In before DARRR UNIONS BAD DUHRHURERR


Unions aren't bad, people are bad. If you give a group of people the ability to indemnify themselves from all wrong doing, have them oversee who is doing wrong, then throw in the ability to influence any group that would speak out about their abuse; Well then you have the perfect job platform w/ the best medical, dental, and a retirement plan that will be aces. Everyone else gets the shaft, but hey they shoulda joined the police force. Public servant unions are this weird area that keeps growing stronger, while teacher's unions keep are nearly nonexistent.

Now if that shiat ain't reined in, then well I'm sure it will work out. Not like they will get more militant and flagrant in their abuses, expanding their areas of responsibility until they eclipse all other local agencies and finally becoming a money making arm of the local government.

/ Woooo, we dodged a bullet on that one. /s
 
2020-08-13 7:23:44 PM  

cman: If taking a life may be required as part of your job description, you should not have a union

Police should not have unions


Those two statements seem to contradict each other. The very fact that the job requires that police officers be provided so much individual authority is a valid reason for the existence of police unions. Police don't have the luxury of forming committees, holding meetings and doing research before making decisions, so they deserve some protection from the effects of being second guessed after the fact. Yes, there are clearly times when a decision is bad and those times deserve sanctions, but when a cop makes a reasonable effort to to the right thing in a moment's notice he should know that there are protections in place in the event he's later found to be wrong.

The problem isn't the existence of police unions, it's the overly broad powers that some unions have acquired. These unions are often their own worst enemies when they defend bad policing.
 
2020-08-13 7:25:42 PM  
Outlaw unions
 
2020-08-13 7:25:53 PM  
"Hey Will, as soon as we're done beating down this attempt by meat-packing plant workers to organize into a union, wanna go join the police force. They got unions."

You might think I am joking, but I am not. That's the postage stamp-sized history of the police union.
 
2020-08-13 7:26:04 PM  

g.fro: Soldiers don't have a union; why should police?


Police aren't soldiers. You don't want police to be like soldiers.
 
2020-08-13 7:27:52 PM  

CruiserTwelve: cman: If taking a life may be required as part of your job description, you should not have a union

Police should not have unions

Those two statements seem to contradict each other. The very fact that the job requires that police officers be provided so much individual authority is a valid reason for the existence of police unions. Police don't have the luxury of forming committees, holding meetings and doing research before making decisions, so they deserve some protection from the effects of being second guessed after the fact. Yes, there are clearly times when a decision is bad and those times deserve sanctions, but when a cop makes a reasonable effort to to the right thing in a moment's notice he should know that there are protections in place in the event he's later found to be wrong.

The problem isn't the existence of police unions, it's the overly broad powers that some unions have acquired. These unions are often their own worst enemies when they defend bad policing.


All that sounds like a job for a grand jury, or perhaps an independent state commission. Why should a union have any role in the process of investigating the actions of a police officer beyond providing counsel.
 
2020-08-13 7:28:39 PM  
STOP RESISTING!
 
2020-08-13 7:32:20 PM  

CruiserTwelve: g.fro: Soldiers don't have a union; why should police?

Police aren't soldiers. You don't want police to be like soldiers.


But they keep acting like they are, want all the toys, and the respect.

But soldiers are subject to a legal code stricter than civilian law, whereas police seem to be above the law.

I'm not at all saying cops should be anything like soldiers. They've taken the "paramilitary" thing too far as it is. But soldiering is a demanding government job which often involves the application of deadly force. And they don't seem to need a union. So why do cops need a union?
 
2020-08-13 7:37:50 PM  

CruiserTwelve: g.fro: Soldiers don't have a union; why should police?

Police aren't soldiers. You don't want police to be like soldiers.


Yet every former cop I've worked with declares that they are PARA-Military and all too many of them believe that the people they serve are their enemies.
 
2020-08-13 7:39:04 PM  

CruiserTwelve: You'll never get rid of police unions


That's exactly why the movement says "Abolish the police." 

They started by protecting property over life and they haven't changed in over 200 years.

Abolish the police. There are better systems out there.
 
2020-08-13 7:40:49 PM  

Flying Vermin: The Moral to this story:

They are public employee unions.  They are solely there to fark you, the public.  Disband them all.

It doesn't matter if its cop, teachers or the IRS, Unions are going to Union.  As is screw over there boss for there own gain.  And don't forget who the boss is:

You


"Let's pay teachers $13/hr w/o benefits and watch our nation become so much more intelligent and totally competitive with the rest of the world."
 
2020-08-13 7:48:48 PM  
And I forget who said it up there but police *should* be paid more.  Require them to be far more educated, and not just jump out of "maaaan i'm the stupidest kid in my gradutating class and am gonna work for a security firm for 8 months and get hired as a podunk LEO by the time i'm 19 yrs old".

Make them have masters degrees. My freaking h.s. teachers had to have 1-yr masters degrees and that was over 35 yrs ago, so a freakin cop should have to have a 1-yr masters degree too if a h.s. teacher has to have one.

/the nation needs a ton of manual laborers to help out with infrastructure projects, for many years into the future
//uneducated and undereducated cops need to be yeeted and assigned to decent-paying shovel-ready jobs
///as was their birthright lol
//study harder next time around, kid
/thatsashame 5
 
2020-08-13 7:52:18 PM  

Puglio: Here's another great one from Minneapolis:

Cops who raided wrong house honored
Eight Minneapolis police officers who raided the wrong house last year have been honored for their valor - and that has outraged a family that was shot at multiple times by the officers.


It's not just Minneapolis, it's all over the country, has been for decades.  The cop unions have so much power they can even apply huge amounts of pressure on federal courts.   Take the case of Earl Faison, a black man who was murdered by police in the stairwell of the police station in Orange, New Jersey.   Faison's family and community activists doggedly pursued the cops to obtain justice for the victim, eventually getting convictions against the cops involved in Federal court in front of a majority white jury.  On sentencing day none of the cops showed up.   The federal judge took his seat and proceeded to throw out the convictions.  https://imixwhatilike.o​rg/2019/04/11/l​awrence-hamm-peoples-organization-for-​progress-earl-faison/

The Rutherford, NJ cops involved in this case were fired, only to be reinstated with full back pay and promotions.  https://www.eastbaytimes​.com/2005/07/0​7/new-jersey-woman-says-bounty-hunters​-grabbed-her-by-mistake/ I don't have the link about their reinstatement because it no longer turns up on a Google search.

Here's a story about cops out of Hackensack, NJ.    https://www.tapinto.net/towns/​hackensa​ck/sections/business-and-finance/artic​les/judge-s-recommendation-to-reinstat​e-officers-would-cost-city-hundreds-of​-thousands

Here's a story in today's news about a Palisades Park, NJ cop getting his job back after being fired for DUI.  https://www.northjersey.com/sto​ry/news​/bergen/palisades-park/2020/08/13/pali​sades-park-nj-rehires-cop-arrested-dwi​-case-last-july/3356113001/

Stories of cops getting away with crimes or other misbehavior are endless.
 
2020-08-13 8:05:34 PM  

g.fro: All that sounds like a job for a grand jury, or perhaps an independent state commission. Why should a union have any role in the process of investigating the actions of a police officer beyond providing counsel.


That's pretty much just what I said. Unions aren't wrong, they're just, in some cases, too powerful.
 
2020-08-13 8:09:28 PM  

g.fro: But they keep acting like they are, want all the toys, and the respect.


Yeah, some cops are like that. But when you see pictures of all those cops in riot gear and helmets, know that the vast majority of them don't want to be there. They'd rather be home with their families and not standing out in the heat trying to control people that are often beyond control, knowing their every move is being videoed and analyzed and they'll be judged by the actions of the very few cops that act badly.
 
2020-08-13 8:11:07 PM  
gameshowhost:

"Let's pay teachers $13/hr w/o benefits and watch our nation become so much more intelligent and totally competitive with the rest of the world."

Paying teachers more hasn't helped.  Test scores have been flat around the nation, regardless of teacher pay.  So, maybe it doesn't really matter that much.

The education system, much like the law enforcement system, is broken beyond repair.  We need to burn the whole system to the ground, and have a few hard discussions, and start again if there will ever be an improvement.

Unions are the largest obstacle to real change.  They are functionally the same as the medieval guild system: they punish innovation for the benefit of the members at the expense of everyone else.
 
2020-08-13 8:12:48 PM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Yet every former cop I've worked with declares that they are PARA-Military and all too many of them believe that the people they serve are their enemies.


I never liked the "para-military" label. It's supposed to refer to the uniformity and the chain of command that's necessary in police work, but some cops forget the "para" part and think the world is a combat zone. That's too common with ex-military types in police work.
 
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