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(ABC News)   We're running out of doctors   (abcnews.go.com) divider line
    More: Murica, Health care, Health care provider, critical care workforce, majority of states, Patient, field hospitals, Medicine, stark prediction  
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2672 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Aug 2020 at 11:50 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-11 9:39:35 AM  
I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days
 
2020-08-11 9:40:58 AM  
Must be from all the socialism that's reducing people's incentives to become doctors.
 
2020-08-11 9:41:28 AM  
Simple solution: 
Take your pick, Jesus or science.
Pick Jesus, you don't need or get a doctor
Carry a card with your preference.
 
2020-08-11 9:41:36 AM  
Can I get law school loans deferred if I take some first aid?
 
2020-08-11 9:44:13 AM  

vudukungfu: Simple solution: 
Take your pick, Jesus or science.
Pick Jesus, you don't need or get a doctor
Carry a card with your preference.


I like that idea, but the issue is that some children will suffer due to idiotic parents. True, one could argue that this is just part of the natural selection.
 
2020-08-11 10:57:18 AM  

Merltech: vudukungfu: Simple solution: 
Take your pick, Jesus or science.
Pick Jesus, you don't need or get a doctor
Carry a card with your preference.

I like that idea, but the issue is that some children will suffer due to idiotic parents. True, one could argue that this is just part of the natural selection.


they chose the science of eugenics. Praise jesus.
 
2020-08-11 10:58:06 AM  
Yes we are. And not  just because the patients are increasing but because the doctors are decreasing through suicide. This article is depressingly out of date but a good start.

The medical industry needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The current one only chews up people and turns them into money, both patients and doctors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation​a​l/health-science/what-ive-learned-from​-my-tally-of-757-doctor-suicides/2018/​01/12/b0ea9126-eb50-11e7-9f92-10a2203f​6c8d_story.html
 
2020-08-11 11:18:41 AM  

vudukungfu: Merltech: vudukungfu: Simple solution: 
Take your pick, Jesus or science.
Pick Jesus, you don't need or get a doctor
Carry a card with your preference.

I like that idea, but the issue is that some children will suffer due to idiotic parents. True, one could argue that this is just part of the natural selection.

they chose the science of eugenics. Praise jesus.


On the positive note, if you chose the spaghetti religion, you can always throw him\her in the microwave and have some kami.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-11 11:50:41 AM  

TelemonianAjax: Yes we are. And not  just because the patients are increasing but because the doctors are decreasing through suicide. This article is depressingly out of date but a good start.

The medical industry needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The current one only chews up people and turns them into money, both patients and doctors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nationa​l/health-science/what-ive-learned-from​-my-tally-of-757-doctor-suicides/2018/​01/12/b0ea9126-eb50-11e7-9f92-10a2203f​6c8d_story.html


We could say the same thing about most professions in this country. Use the worker, abuse the worker, discard the worker. Then we wonder why so many people are burnt out and why they turn to drugs, alcohol, affairs and other methods to 'switch off'.
 
2020-08-11 11:53:02 AM  
I'm sure limiting/crippling immigration hasn't had any affect on that.
 
2020-08-11 11:53:39 AM  

iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days


I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.
 
2020-08-11 11:54:22 AM  

Bloody William: I'm sure limiting/crippling immigration hasn't had any affect on that.


It was done on purpose in the 90s by limiting med school funding and residency spots to prevent a "doctor glut" to keep salaries high.
 
2020-08-11 11:56:02 AM  
Hospitals are furloughing doctors and nurses left and right since the profitable business of elective surgeries is way down. There's no doctor shortage, for profit hospitals don't see big money in caring for corona patients.
 
2020-08-11 11:56:18 AM  
So, that sounds like COVID19 mortality rates among the infected are about to go up.
 
2020-08-11 11:56:47 AM  
BUT THE ECONOMY
 
2020-08-11 12:03:25 PM  
Wait, you're telling me that if you take a high-stress job, then make it dangerous, then isolate the people doing it from their friends and family, then you actively block any outside factors that might keep these problems from multiplying, and people won't want to do it anymore?
 
2020-08-11 12:04:07 PM  

thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.


I'm glad you were able to make this and "us vs. them" argument.
 
2020-08-11 12:04:38 PM  
Since ABC's presumably automatic link generator is awful, the actual data wasn't immediately apparent.  Here's the rundown from the report they're talking about:

--Inadequate Supply at Any Demand --
LA, MS, SC

--Inadequate Supply at Mean Demand --
SD, MN, MI, IL, IN, OH, NC, MD, DE, TN

--'Adequate Supply at High Demand'--
ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, PA, NJ, ND, WY, WV, AK, HI, DC

--Adequate Supply at Mean Demand --
everyone else

That's just for ICU doctors, the tool itself lets you flip to other related positions like CCN, general MD, etc.
https://www.gwhwi.org/estimator.html
 
2020-08-11 12:04:39 PM  
Remember back in the W days of the Iraq war on terra and the military dropped the standards so it didn't matter if you had a few, several, misdees and shiatty grades or no diploma at all, or were even a furiner, sign up! get a few benjamins signing bonus and there ya go, off to be IED bait.

Well, yeah, bad memory.  But I think we may see med schools dropping entry standards to pump more docs into the system.  Stat!
 
2020-08-11 12:04:49 PM  
Per some people, just transfer patients to another hospital. Ta-da! Fixed.
 
2020-08-11 12:05:21 PM  

abb3w: So, that sounds like COVID19 mortality rates among the infected are about to go up.


Or from some sort of pneumonia that seems to be going around. Wink.
 
2020-08-11 12:05:59 PM  

iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days


*Willing* victims of the pandemic. *Avoidable* victims of the pandemic is the problem.

Otherwise, every one of the docs I know, and I know many, wouldn't hesitate to say yes.  And haven't hesitated to say yes.  And have overwhelming feelings of guilt and selfishness and failure and surrender if they so much as admit to so much as having a moment's pause to think, "why am I risking my family's life?"

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-11 12:06:37 PM  

New Rising Sun: Since ABC's presumably automatic link generator is awful, the actual data wasn't immediately apparent.  Here's the rundown from the report they're talking about:

--Inadequate Supply at Any Demand --
LA, MS, SC

--Inadequate Supply at Mean Demand --
SD, MN, MI, IL, IN, OH, NC, MD, DE, TN

--'Adequate Supply at High Demand'--
ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, PA, NJ, ND, WY, WV, AK, HI, DC

--Adequate Supply at Mean Demand --
everyone else

That's just for ICU doctors, the tool itself lets you flip to other related positions like CCN, general MD, etc.
https://www.gwhwi.org/estimator.html


Goddamit I got labels backward.

--Adequate Supply at Mean Demand --
SD, MN, MI, IL, IN, OH, NC, MD, DE, TN

--Inadequate Supply at Mean Demand --
everyone else
 
2020-08-11 12:06:42 PM  

abb3w: So, that sounds like COVID19 mortality rates among the infected are about to go up.


Way up.  Combined with forcing schools to open, and President Brainless Dickbutt ordering states to test fewer people this shiat is going to get far more out of control than it already is.
 
2020-08-11 12:06:49 PM  

IrateShadow: Wait, you're telling me that if you take a high-stress job, then make it dangerous, then isolate the people doing it from their friends and family, then you actively block any outside factors that might keep these problems from multiplying, and people won't want to do it anymore?


Has anyone tried yelling at them to stop living in fear yet?
 
2020-08-11 12:07:30 PM  

MissFeasance: Can I get law school loans deferred if I take some first aid?


Was the debt of law school a surprise for you
 
2020-08-11 12:07:35 PM  

thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.


So you're underpaid like most of the rest of us working stiffs.
 
2020-08-11 12:07:58 PM  

Iworkformsn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

I'm glad you were able to make this and "us vs. them" argument.


Might be that when i work as a healthcare provider I have PPE and can limit my exposures versus being in a building with hundred of students without proper screening procedures.

And admittedly I'm salty that one of my exes (way back from high school- currently am ICU doc) just got back from a 9 month honeymoon touring the world....
 
2020-08-11 12:08:33 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Per some people, just transfer patients to another hospital. Ta-da! Fixed.


In rural red state America, the investors simply plywood up the hospital and lay off all of the staff.
The majority of people living in those places will vote for Donald Trump a second time.
 
2020-08-11 12:09:06 PM  

Iworkformsn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

I'm glad you were able to make this and "us vs. them" argument.


In the scarcity economy we have - which itself is disgusting given that we're the wealthiest nation on the planet - tribalism and "us vs them" arguments are inevitable.

Maybe we should treat everyone well instead of treating everyone like shiat. I don't know that it will make all that go away but it certainly can't hurt anyone except billionaires.
 
2020-08-11 12:09:22 PM  

Carn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

So you're underpaid like most of the rest of us working stiffs.


Interesting tidbit- they aren't wanting us to buy supplies this year because communal supplies are a no go.
 
2020-08-11 12:10:07 PM  

New Rising Sun: Since ABC's presumably automatic link generator is awful, the actual data wasn't immediately apparent.  Here's the rundown from the report they're talking about:

--Inadequate Supply at Any Demand --
LA, MS, SC

--Inadequate Supply at Mean Demand --
SD, MN, MI, IL, IN, OH, NC, MD, DE, TN

--'Adequate Supply at High Demand'--
ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, PA, NJ, ND, WY, WV, AK, HI, DC

--Adequate Supply at Mean Demand --
everyone else

That's just for ICU doctors, the tool itself lets you flip to other related positions like CCN, general MD, etc.
https://www.gwhwi.org/estimator.html


It's almost like intelligent, well educated people prefer blue states.
 
2020-08-11 12:10:54 PM  
Enjoy The Best Healthcare System in the WorldTM!

Nothing like an exclusively for-profit driven system to make sure the populous of a country are taken care of in case of a pandemic...

When a high percentage of your country's population are out of work, therefore without medical insurance, you are basically sentencing those people to a long and agonizing death.
 
2020-08-11 12:12:52 PM  

Iworkformsn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

I'm glad you were able to make this and "us vs. them" argument.


I wasn't going to pick at the ludicrousness of that comparison, other than to make a similar, but less eloquent, response, "the powers that be will have the oppressed blaming each other for their oppression."

But, if we're gonna get all whatabouty... meanwhile, a dude carrying a clipboard who will never see a meaningful snap in a meaningful game in the NFL is making 10-20x what the head of the ICU is makin -- a WELL-PAID head of ICU, if a hospital even has one --  ...and ** 50-100x ** what the fellow, who is voluntarily pursuing further special education *after* a residency, *after* four years of med school, *after* four years of undergrad is making while actually running the ICU in a world-class institution.

And then there's the resident doing a lot of the work.

And the med school students _paying_ for the privilege of working there.

FOH with that, is what I'm saying.  And that's me being polite about an issue that hits very, very close to home.  Or, rather, hits directly home, and into the homes of most of my friends.
 
2020-08-11 12:13:57 PM  

Northern: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Per some people, just transfer patients to another hospital. Ta-da! Fixed.

In rural red state America, the investors simply plywood up the hospital and lay off all of the staff.
The majority of people living in those places will vote for Donald Trump a second time.


It was that way, now the major metro hospitals are buying up rural hospitals at a loss. It is an investment because eventually those rural patients will get sick enough or require regular specialists visits and they'll move closer to the metros. Then once they've been forced to sell off their legacy, the system can bilk them for the rest and they're already in  the system.
 
2020-08-11 12:14:43 PM  
The doctors and nurses are all dying from rebreathing their exhaled carbon monoxide from being forced to wear masks.

And they're all being counted as COVID-19 deaths, because the government pays the hospital huge bonuses for every reported case.

Study it out.
 
2020-08-11 12:14:49 PM  
We were low in many areas for ICU MDs before this started, and working them 12+ hours a day all the time isn't a useful way of retaining them for long. Ditto ICU RNs
 
2020-08-11 12:15:16 PM  

thehobbes: Carn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

So you're underpaid like most of the rest of us working stiffs.

Interesting tidbit- they aren't wanting us to buy supplies this year because communal supplies are a no go.


Don't get me wrong, I think what we've been and what we are now asking of teachers is beyond ludicrous, without even getting into how vastly underpaid you all are.
 
2020-08-11 12:16:27 PM  

amindtat: IrateShadow: Wait, you're telling me that if you take a high-stress job, then make it dangerous, then isolate the people doing it from their friends and family, then you actively block any outside factors that might keep these problems from multiplying, and people won't want to do it anymore?

Has anyone tried yelling at them to stop living in fear yet?


No, but a whole helluvalot of people think that vindictive lawsuits fueled by ignorance and sadness that land on top of inevitable results sure seem to help.

Wait, did I say, "no, but"?  I meant, "Yes, and."
 
2020-08-11 12:18:36 PM  

Carn: thehobbes: Carn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

So you're underpaid like most of the rest of us working stiffs.

Interesting tidbit- they aren't wanting us to buy supplies this year because communal supplies are a no go.

Don't get me wrong, I think what we've been and what we are now asking of teachers is beyond ludicrous, without even getting into how vastly underpaid you all are.


I hear you, and my school is pretty well compensated, but I also just dropped about $500 on applications to PA school. Another graduate degree that will triple my earnings.

And yes, med school and PA school application costs are insane.
/early 30s
//eternal student
 
2020-08-11 12:19:11 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Iworkformsn: thehobbes: iheartscotch: I mean.....would you want to risk your life treating victims of a pandemic?

/ especially considering the threats healthcare workers are getting these days

I go back into the classroom next week while making  1/8th of what an ICU doc makes and I have a graduate degree.

I'm glad you were able to make this and "us vs. them" argument.

In the scarcity economy we have - which itself is disgusting given that we're the wealthiest nation on the planet - tribalism and "us vs them" arguments are inevitable.

Maybe we should treat everyone well instead of treating everyone like shiat. I don't know that it will make all that go away but it certainly can't hurt anyone except billionaires.


When I was in college, a buddy of mine ended up meeting a woman who lived in Sweden.  He's been a US expat for over 15 years now.  He's got a stable job, two kids, a house, full medical coverage, and he's able to take time off each year to enjoy life.

As a parent, one of the best things you can now do for your kids is to expand their horizons beyond the US, and if they are receptive, encourage them to live abroad and possibly make their lives in a different country that values their citizens.  In many respects, it'll be a much better life, even if they don't fulfill the (mostly false) dream of making it big in the US.
 
2020-08-11 12:21:14 PM  
Seems like this should be bigger news. Well anyway I better get back to Facebook to increase awareness that sex trafficking happens and is much worse than any issue you have going on.
 
2020-08-11 12:22:00 PM  
Funny how I used to give a shiat back wheb I thought healthcare might ever be available to me or anyone I care about.

But since it isn't and never will be, oh well, you guys have fun with your cute little anxiety about society collapsing. It IS collapsing.

Way too late now to do anything at all about it. Learn to live without all. All.
 
2020-08-11 12:22:39 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: We were low in many areas for ICU MDs before this started


People have a lovely, utopian vision of hospitals, thanks to Hollywood, wishful thinking, and a vision of what they _should_ be.

People are horrified when I point out that, thanks to running healthcare for a profit, no, on a sunny Tuesday afternoon this time last year, the best ICU in your state was running at over 80% capacity.  And on a busy Saturday night, most decent ERs were on flyby.

But that's in the catch radius of an actual institution:  God help you if you're more than an hour's drive from a major metropolitan area... you better hope to get lucky and have an actual MD on call at your local "hospital," to which you _might_ get schlepped by a volunteer EMT who might remember to turn on the knob on the oxygen tank, the only treatment, other than pressure on gauze and a gas pedal, that they have available for your transport to the "ER."

Today?  Today, we're so farking boned.
 
2020-08-11 12:22:49 PM  
We are already out of ICU nurses. They are offering us base pay, plus full incentive, plus $30/hr for an ICU shift and we can't fill all shifts. I'm pulling 4 shifts (which is normally our max), but they're allowing 5 shifts now. We are also out of techs and housekeeping. Stress levels are through the roof. Our management teams are having to fill in. TBH, it has reached unsafe levels.
 
2020-08-11 12:26:21 PM  
a shortage of x professionals = we aren't paying x professionals enough
 
2020-08-11 12:26:59 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: We were low in many areas for ICU MDs before this started, and working them 12+ hours a day all the time isn't a useful way of retaining them for long. Ditto ICU RNs


And Trump's various Muslim bans have prevented foreign-born green-card-holders from re-entering the country, including those who'd committed to working in underserved (e.g., rural) areas in exchange for permanent residency, making rural areas' doctor-shortage more acute. I read several articles about rural people who were surprised that their friendly doctor with the accent was stuck outside the U.S.
 
2020-08-11 12:27:16 PM  

valkore: a buddy of mine ended up meeting a woman who lived in Sweden.  He's been a US expat for over 15 years now.


Difficulty:  Winter.

I'd be so gone to Scandinavia if it weren't for winter.

Are there any well-run tropical-climate / closer-to-equatorial-daylight-year-rou​nd socialist economies that are looking for scientists / doctors and haven't shut down their borders to the plague-infested country's immigrants?  Asking for a friend many of the people I know.
 
2020-08-11 12:27:30 PM  

Russ1642: a shortage of x professionals = we aren't paying x professionals enough


Doesn't work that way when you can throttle the supply.
 
2020-08-11 12:29:32 PM  

Russ1642: a shortage of x professionals = we aren't paying x professionals enough


And adding to the disaster that is medicine-as-profit, run-by-MBA-thinking is the somehow overlooked reality that the "maximize productivity / minimize costs / run a widgetfactory" textbook training neglects to mention that it takes _decades_ to "scale up" new hospitals and their required staffing.

Ooooooops.
 
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