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(The Drive)   No big deal, just formations of Chinese fighters violating Taiwan's airspace during the highest-level U.S. visit there in four decades   (thedrive.com) divider line
    More: News, People's Republic of China, Republic of China, Taiwan Strait, arrival of U.S. Health, unprecedented high-level visit, People's Liberation Army Air Force, Diplomacy, South China Sea  
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3271 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2020 at 11:58 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-10 11:07:08 AM  
Yeah, but they're all going really slow with their blinkers on.
 
2020-08-10 11:34:05 AM  
They entered the Air Defense Id Zone not the 12 mile nautical boundary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_def​e​nse_identification_zone#Taiwan


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspac​e​#Horizontal_boundary

Russia does the same to European countries and Alaska all the time, entering the ADIZ is hey we are here, come and annoy us

Entering the 12 nautical miles is asking to be shot down
 
2020-08-10 12:02:11 PM  
At least China respects the unspoken truth that Taiwan is a sovereign country. If they really wanted to make a show, they'd have flown right over 'their' land.
 
2020-08-10 12:02:39 PM  
China going out of its way to make 2020 even more special.
 
2020-08-10 12:03:30 PM  

zedster: They entered the Air Defense Id Zone not the 12 mile nautical boundary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defe​nse_identification_zone#Taiwan


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace​#Horizontal_boundary

Russia does the same to European countries and Alaska all the time, entering the ADIZ is hey we are here, come and annoy us

Entering the 12 nautical miles is asking to be shot down


Thanks for that. It's a big difference.
Still a power play, but not a violation of air space.

Also FTA: "emerged over the channel".
What were they cloaked before? Or did they warp there?
 
2020-08-10 12:06:00 PM  

stuffy: China going out of its way to make 2020 even more special.


StoleMyLine.jpg
I forgot to add this.
As if we need this right now.

/Difficulty: many countries, *cough* start external crap when internal crap reaches a certain threshold.
 
2020-08-10 12:06:05 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-10 12:10:00 PM  
ok.

what do you want to do about it?

serious question.
 
2020-08-10 12:10:42 PM  
This is in no way calling Donnie's bluff, who goes out of his way to tell us how tough on China he is.
 
2020-08-10 12:12:37 PM  
All they wanted was a Pepsi.
 
2020-08-10 12:14:27 PM  
CSB:

I took a tour in China a couple of years ago.  Was talking with one of our city guides and the subject of Taiwan came up.  She was very P.C. in her responses & avoiding giving out potentially offensive opinions as you'd expect, but her choice of words gave a few things away.  In talking about Taiwan, she repeatedly referenced when Taiwan will "re-join" China... blah blah blah.  Over a few conversations, she always referred to Taiwan as if it were just a wayward child and still a province of China, rather than its own country.  That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.
 
2020-08-10 12:17:03 PM  

stuffy: China going out of its way to make 2020 even more special.


Why stop with pandemic? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take!
 
2020-08-10 12:18:37 PM  
The best thing for China is if Trump gets re-elected. Joe Biden won't put up with any of this crap.
 
2020-08-10 12:19:19 PM  
China sees the lay of the political landscape (how much of it they created can be debated separately) ....and it's a great time to act. The US isn't going to act to defend Taiwan (in a meaningful way...unless unstable genius gets unstabler) much less Hong Kong.

The PRC is going to take back what they see as theirs because no one is going to stop them. Just like Russia annexed Crimea...people may talk a good game and threaten sanctions but....they're going to ask forgiveness not permission.

And we'll forgive them.
 
2020-08-10 12:19:56 PM  

zeroflight222: CSB:

I took a tour in China a couple of years ago.  Was talking with one of our city guides and the subject of Taiwan came up.  She was very P.C. in her responses & avoiding giving out potentially offensive opinions as you'd expect, but her choice of words gave a few things away.  In talking about Taiwan, she repeatedly referenced when Taiwan will "re-join" China... blah blah blah.  Over a few conversations, she always referred to Taiwan as if it were just a wayward child and still a province of China, rather than its own country.  That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.


I suspect that only North Korean tour guides are more careful about their language than Chinese ones.

Not that either case precludes actual belief in the opinions, but they're going to make damned sure that they stick strictly to the playbook. Ad-libbing is where problems can happen.
 
2020-08-10 12:20:36 PM  

Clash City Farker: The best thing for China is if Trump gets re-elected. Joe Biden won't put up with any of this crap.


Not sure if serious?
 
2020-08-10 12:25:19 PM  
If you lived through the cold  war, this was a headline every other week. It's all posturing.
 
2020-08-10 12:28:59 PM  

stuhayes2010: If you lived through the cold  war, this was a headline every other week. It's all posturing.


And gathering data like what Taiwan sends up to greet them and from where, what radar signals are detected, yadda.
 
2020-08-10 12:30:37 PM  
Who?
 
2020-08-10 12:31:45 PM  
Pretty sure if Guam or Puerto Rico decided to #yolo the USA and Putin decided to visit, we'd do the exact same shiat.

The pearl-clutching over geopolitical games is just stupid. Taiwan chose to poke the bear and the US decided to support poking the bear, so it's only customary to expect some gamesmanship when making global power plays.
 
2020-08-10 12:42:46 PM  
Damn, that's dangerous.  One of those cheap copycat Sukhoi frankenplanes could fall right out of the sky.
 
2020-08-10 12:45:11 PM  

Clash City Farker: The best thing for China is if Trump gets re-elected. Joe Biden won't put up with any of this crap.


You... Can... Not... Be... Serious...
 
2020-08-10 12:45:34 PM  
Damn. I actually met one of their F-16 pilots while at a previous job. Nice dude and interesting to talk to. I always had it in the back of my mind that this guy may have the unenviable job of trying to repel a Chinese invasion. Ugh.
 
2020-08-10 12:48:53 PM  

zeroflight222: That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.


That basically tracks with every interaction with China I've ever had.  As an example, I helped develop the Leviathans board game for Catalyst Game Labs back in 2009-10.  Leviathans was an alternate-history game (featuring flying battleships) in the pre-WW1 era.  In 1911, Taiwan/Formosa was owned by Japan, who had acquired the island in 1895.  So for our game's world map, dated 1911, we colored Taiwan and Japan the same color, which was different than the color of China.

Woo boy, did the Chinese not like that.  The first print run of the game was set to be shipped out of China to the States when it was inspected, and they noticed.  So, the entire print run of the game was seized as "subversive material" and destroyed, and Catalyst had to reprint the game line at its own expense and at a (much) higher price as a penalty for breaching the "One China" policy, where Taiwan is, was, and always has been part of China, and any material saying otherwise is unacceptable. They are incredibly serious and uptight about this subject, much more so than when talking about, say, product quality control.

/this incident caused a massive delay in the game's printing, which functionally killed the game, and it's only recently that Catalyst has looked at trying to revive the property
// https://monstersinthesky.com/
 
2020-08-10 12:50:17 PM  
In Kaohsiung, Taiwan they have a hotel there that has (had?) a Hello Kitty themed room that came with the use of a Hello Kitty themed rental car.

/make of that what you will with regards to a Chinese invasion
 
2020-08-10 12:50:25 PM  

Resident Muslim: stuffy: China going out of its way to make 2020 even more special.

StoleMyLine.jpg
I forgot to add this.
As if we need this right now.

/Difficulty: many countries, *cough* start external crap when internal crap reaches a certain threshold.


It didn't end well for Argentina.
 
2020-08-10 12:52:29 PM  

emersonbiggins: This is in no way calling Donnie's bluff, who goes out of his way to tell us how tough on China he is.


While still getting his hats from there.
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-10 12:53:29 PM  

FightDirector: zeroflight222: That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.

That basically tracks with every interaction with China I've ever had.  As an example, I helped develop the Leviathans board game for Catalyst Game Labs back in 2009-10.  Leviathans was an alternate-history game (featuring flying battleships) in the pre-WW1 era.  In 1911, Taiwan/Formosa was owned by Japan, who had acquired the island in 1895.  So for our game's world map, dated 1911, we colored Taiwan and Japan the same color, which was different than the color of China.

Woo boy, did the Chinese not like that.  The first print run of the game was set to be shipped out of China to the States when it was inspected, and they noticed.  So, the entire print run of the game was seized as "subversive material" and destroyed, and Catalyst had to reprint the game line at its own expense and at a (much) higher price as a penalty for breaching the "One China" policy, where Taiwan is, was, and always has been part of China, and any material saying otherwise is unacceptable. They are incredibly serious and uptight about this subject, much more so than when talking about, say, product quality control.

/this incident caused a massive delay in the game's printing, which functionally killed the game, and it's only recently that Catalyst has looked at trying to revive the property
// https://monstersinthesky.com/


The correct response is to tell China to go fark themselves with a cactus and sell the game everywhere else
 
2020-08-10 12:55:21 PM  

FightDirector: zeroflight222: That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.

As an example, I helped develop the Leviathans board game for Catalyst Game Labs back in 2009-10.  Leviathans was an alternate-history game (featuring flying battleships) in the pre-WW1 era.


Damn, I'd be interested in that game too.
 
2020-08-10 12:57:06 PM  
It made sense for the US to be concerned and even upset when Soviet planes, ships and missiles were 90 miles off their coast. It also now makes sense for China to be concerned when American planes, ships and missiles are 110 miles off their coast.

I would expect both to act accordingly.
 
2020-08-10 12:57:18 PM  

Not_Todd: Resident Muslim: stuffy: China going out of its way to make 2020 even more special.

StoleMyLine.jpg
I forgot to add this.
As if we need this right now.

/Difficulty: many countries, *cough* start external crap when internal crap reaches a certain threshold.

It didn't end well for Argentina ever


/FTFW
//Every time we help topple a government, we get bitten in the ass
 
2020-08-10 12:57:21 PM  
They entered the unofficial airspace boundary for God sakes.  Somebody do something!
 
2020-08-10 1:01:34 PM  
Poor Thighwan
 
2020-08-10 1:04:43 PM  

Warlordtrooper: FightDirector: zeroflight222: That, to me, spoke volumes about China's view & future aspirations on it.

That basically tracks with every interaction with China I've ever had.  As an example, I helped develop the Leviathans board game for Catalyst Game Labs back in 2009-10.  Leviathans was an alternate-history game (featuring flying battleships) in the pre-WW1 era.  In 1911, Taiwan/Formosa was owned by Japan, who had acquired the island in 1895.  So for our game's world map, dated 1911, we colored Taiwan and Japan the same color, which was different than the color of China.

Woo boy, did the Chinese not like that.  The first print run of the game was set to be shipped out of China to the States when it was inspected, and they noticed.  So, the entire print run of the game was seized as "subversive material" and destroyed, and Catalyst had to reprint the game line at its own expense and at a (much) higher price as a penalty for breaching the "One China" policy, where Taiwan is, was, and always has been part of China, and any material saying otherwise is unacceptable. They are incredibly serious and uptight about this subject, much more so than when talking about, say, product quality control.

/this incident caused a massive delay in the game's printing, which functionally killed the game, and it's only recently that Catalyst has looked at trying to revive the property
// https://monstersinthesky.com/

The correct response is to tell China to go fark themselves with a cactus and sell the game everywhere else


You might want to re-read that.  He was getting a print run of the game FROM China to sell to the US.  The correct correct response is to tell you to tell him to go fark themselves with a cactus and do the print run in another country.
 
2020-08-10 1:05:44 PM  

Sexy Jesus: Damn, that's dangerous.  One of those cheap copycat Sukhoi frankenplanes could fall right out of the sky.


Yeah, I thought that looked strangely familiar to a Su-35...
 
2020-08-10 1:10:03 PM  

Sexy Jesus: Damn, that's dangerous.  One of those cheap copycat Sukhoi frankenplanes could fall right out of the sky.


Strangely enough, the Chinese ones don't seem to fall out of the sky/crash on landing nearly as often as the Ruskie operated ones do. Seems like China's PLAAF learned what the value of the mysterious concept called "proper maintenance" is.
 
2020-08-10 1:10:23 PM  

Resident Muslim: Also FTA: "emerged over the channel".
What were they cloaked before? Or did they warp there?


"How many of those are there?!"

startrek.comView Full Size


"Just the prototype."
 
2020-08-10 1:11:15 PM  

Nadie_AZ: It made sense for the US to be concerned and even upset when Soviet planes, ships and missiles were 90 miles off their coast. It also now makes sense for China to be concerned when American planes, ships and missiles are 110 miles off their coast.

I would expect both to act accordingly.


Nice false equivalence. How many American nuclear weapons are based on Taiwan?
 
2020-08-10 1:13:25 PM  
Honestly, its not our concern. Its always been a stupid internal bickering biatchfight that we only got involved in because "commies are bad" was the stupidity of flavor in the 50s and 60s. We honestly have no business being involved. The rest of the asian peninsula are the ones who should be handling this stuff
 
2020-08-10 1:15:41 PM  

BigNumber12: Nadie_AZ: It made sense for the US to be concerned and even upset when Soviet planes, ships and missiles were 90 miles off their coast. It also now makes sense for China to be concerned when American planes, ships and missiles are 110 miles off their coast.

I would expect both to act accordingly.

Nice false equivalence. How many American nuclear weapons are based on Taiwan?


No, no nuclear weapons in Taiwan that I am aware of. I'm not trying to say 'one side good, another bad', I'm simply pointing out that we are rather nonchalant about having our stuff so close to other nations and act surprised when they react defensively.

Taiwan will eventually be part of China. When? I have no idea. Do I like the idea? It doesn't matter, but I'd like it more if they allowed for more political freedom with their citizens.
 
2020-08-10 1:20:29 PM  

Sasquach: China sees the lay of the political landscape (how much of it they created can be debated separately) ....and it's a great time to act. The US isn't going to act to defend Taiwan (in a meaningful way...unless unstable genius gets unstabler) much less Hong Kong.

The PRC is going to take back what they see as theirs because no one is going to stop them. Just like Russia annexed Crimea...people may talk a good game and threaten sanctions but....they're going to ask forgiveness not permission.

And we'll forgive them.


The PRC coercively expropriating TSMC's tech and fabs doesn't seem like something the US would be very forgiving over, especially since TSMC makes a lot of chips for the US military.
 
2020-08-10 1:21:32 PM  

Nadie_AZ: BigNumber12: Nadie_AZ: It made sense for the US to be concerned and even upset when Soviet planes, ships and missiles were 90 miles off their coast. It also now makes sense for China to be concerned when American planes, ships and missiles are 110 miles off their coast.

I would expect both to act accordingly.

Nice false equivalence. How many American nuclear weapons are based on Taiwan?

No, no nuclear weapons in Taiwan that I am aware of. I'm not trying to say 'one side good, another bad', I'm simply pointing out that we are rather nonchalant about having our stuff so close to other nations and act surprised when they react defensively.

Taiwan will eventually be part of China. When? I have no idea. Do I like the idea? It doesn't matter, but I'd like it more if they allowed for more political freedom with their citizens.


When say our stuff do you mean military stuff the US has sold to Taiwan?
 
2020-08-10 1:21:39 PM  

Comic Book Guy: The correct correct response is to tell you to tell him to go fark themselves with a cactus and do the print run in another country.


Just so we're clear: in 2009, the choice was "produce in China" or "don't produce".  Without going into a great number of details about the box contents and why, with Chinese production prices for color printing and plastic injection molding, we could sell the core boxed set for ~$75.  The next lowest price point, were we to produce anywhere else, would be been north of $160.  Games with core boxes costing more than $100 flatly didn't sell, so it was China or nowhere.  Every place with the production capacity to make the game was more expensive than China, and anywhere with lower costs than China didn't have the production capacity (particularly in terms of making inexpensive injection molding plates from scratch).

For what it's worth, American production costs would have forced an MSRP of about $230.
 
2020-08-10 1:24:00 PM  

FightDirector: Comic Book Guy: The correct correct response is to tell you to tell him to go fark themselves with a cactus and do the print run in another country.

Just so we're clear: in 2009, the choice was "produce in China" or "don't produce".  Without going into a great number of details about the box contents and why, with Chinese production prices for color printing and plastic injection molding, we could sell the core boxed set for ~$75.  The next lowest price point, were we to produce anywhere else, would be been north of $160.  Games with core boxes costing more than $100 flatly didn't sell, so it was China or nowhere.  Every place with the production capacity to make the game was more expensive than China, and anywhere with lower costs than China didn't have the production capacity (particularly in terms of making inexpensive injection molding plates from scratch).

For what it's worth, American production costs would have forced an MSRP of about $230.


That's still pretty much the choice. Nobody is going to buy a $800 iPhone for $3000 because it was made in Cupertino instead of FoxxConn, PRC.

"Made in the USA" is still code for "overpriced crap that underdelivers."
 
2020-08-10 1:24:44 PM  

Clash City Farker: The best thing for China is if Trump gets re-elected. Joe Biden won't put up with any of this crap.


you are one funny M____ F_____.  Joe is practically hand-jobbing the Chinese until his lips are moisturized
 
2020-08-10 1:26:37 PM  
Little doggie continues to bark all day, does not bite.
 
2020-08-10 1:27:33 PM  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: At least China respects the unspoken truth that Taiwan is a sovereign country. If they really wanted to make a show, they'd have flown right over 'their' land.


This behavior meant to frighten Taiwan away from independence is within the same scope of historical diplomacy between the two. The CCP policy toward Taiwan has always been one of delaying full independence until China has a strong enough position to either politically, economically, or militarily force reunification.

This is why up until they were given the opportunity to directly press on others by Donald Trump, China has been satisfied with the de jure situation of Taiwan not being an independent nation and also not falling under the jurisdiction of the CCP. The growing independence movement in Taiwan that now runs on the edge of full blown declaration has enhanced the war hawk nature of China's provocation.
 
2020-08-10 1:33:58 PM  

Nadie_AZ: No, no nuclear weapons in Taiwan that I am aware of. I'm not trying to say 'one side good, another bad', I'm simply pointing out that we are rather nonchalant about having our stuff so close to other nations and act surprised when they react defensively.


So you didn't actually have a real point regarding Cuba - got it.

Nadie_AZ: Taiwan will eventually be part of China. When? I have no idea. Do I like the idea? It doesn't matter, but I'd like it more if they allowed for more political freedom with their citizens.


That's not a given at all. It's not Hong Kong.
 
2020-08-10 1:36:39 PM  
Secretary of Health and Human Services? Are we offering to share Medicare with them, or build substandard cracker-box public housing?
 
2020-08-10 1:36:59 PM  

Heliodorus: frighten Taiwan away from independence


Taiwan is not independent.  They're totally dependent on the USA for military cover.  They have been ever since Chiang Kai Shek bamboozled America into being "his" barbarian.  They will eventually merge with China, however.  That's pretty much a foregone conclusion eventually.
 
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