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(The New Yorker)   An entire edition of the New Yorker in 1946 was dedicated to the atomic bombings of Japan. On the 75th anniversary of the Nagasaki bombing, read this if you haven't yet   (newyorker.com) divider line
    More: Vintage, Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Nuclear weapon, Hiroshima, Doctor, Father Wilhelm Kleinsorge, Dr. Masakazu Fujii, Reverend Mr. Kiyoshi Tanimoto, Mrs. Hatsuyo Nakamura  
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6297 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 09 Aug 2020 at 6:35 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-09 2:36:04 PM  
horrifying.
 
2020-08-09 2:43:23 PM  
I posted this on the Hiroshima Anniversary, but it got redlit. It deserves a greenlight. I also purchased an e-book format of Fallout by Lesley Blume.
 
2020-08-09 3:09:41 PM  
I read this in its book form.  It's incredibly powerful and a landmark in journalism.
 
2020-08-09 3:36:44 PM  
We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.
 
2020-08-09 4:08:50 PM  
A haunting reminder that behind every number in a war casualty tally is a human being.  Sometimes a soldier, sometimes just civilians going about their day.

Never again, I pray.
 
2020-08-09 4:10:47 PM  
I read the book in middle school.  I also would have had one more great uncle but he was tortured to death by the Japanese during the war.
 
2020-08-09 4:12:39 PM  

Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.


Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.
 
2020-08-09 6:27:26 PM  

teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.


Two wrongs...
 
2020-08-09 6:33:03 PM  

teto85: Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.


Too bad Dean Acheson cut off their gasoline supply in 1941.
 
2020-08-09 6:38:41 PM  

luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...


What are the two wrongs?
 
2020-08-09 6:46:33 PM  
With a snap of it's finger, the earth starts to shake

Blacking out the sun, and leaving shadows in it's wake
 
2020-08-09 6:50:53 PM  
In fark revisionist history, we are the only evil ones in WW2...

The Japanese were friendly compared to us...
 
2020-08-09 6:53:34 PM  
When I was a kid my dad (a veteran of the USAAF) gave me a book on planes because I was fascinated by them.  It included stories of the firebombing of Hamburg, the bombing of Berlin, the firebombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think it was his subtle anti-war statement
 
2020-08-09 6:55:30 PM  
The dropping of the atomic bombs were a terrible end to a terrible war.
 
2020-08-09 6:56:38 PM  
I think a week or two after the bombings, the US Army sent peeps in to assess, provide aid, and film (I believe Nagasaki). It must have been whenever Japan surrendered, I guess. The film captured then was declassified in the mid/late 1990s. I was in high school at the time, and my AP US History teacher had us watch it. It was farking horrifying. No censoring. Shadows of people flashed permanently on the walls left standing. Clothing patterns burned into peoples' skin. A classroom with marks where the students had been. So much helplessness and hopelessness on peoples' faces. Our teacher explained that all of the US military peeps that went in died from radiation-related illnesses themselves, on top of all of the Japanese we saw dying.

He had us watch it because he wanted to make damn sure we understood. He never tried to argue it was the wrong call or anything like that. He just said look at this and understand the consequences of war. Why peace is so important to work for and hold onto.

/He also taught us about Tulsa and Black Wall Street, the Black Panthers beyond the fear-mongering, My Lai in Vietnam and the Secret War that happened in Laos, went in-depth about the Korean War instead of the sad two pages the textbook had, and a bunch of other honest takes on our history that I thought everyone learned about and apparently didn't
//My history teacher is a farking hero
 
2020-08-09 6:58:17 PM  
One of the things that's always stuck with me for some reason is the description of the anti aircraft gunners  "their faces were wholly burned, their eye sockets were hollow, the fluid from their melted eyes had run down their cheeks. (They must have had their faces upturned when the bomb went off; perhaps they were anti-aircraft personnel.)"
Horrifying
 
2020-08-09 6:59:04 PM  

Autarky: In fark revisionist history, we are the only evil ones in WW2...

The Japanese were friendly compared to us...


Recognizing our own darkness doesn't deny the darkness in others. But denying our own darkness means it's much easier for us to lose any light we may have.

/Whataboutisming WW2, really?
 
2020-08-09 7:02:22 PM  

ByOwlLight: Autarky: In fark revisionist history, we are the only evil ones in WW2...

The Japanese were friendly compared to us...

Recognizing our own darkness doesn't deny the darkness in others. But denying our own darkness means it's much easier for us to lose any light we may have.

/Whataboutisming WW2, really?


It must be Shiatposter Sunday, based on the last few threads.
 
2020-08-09 7:03:28 PM  

luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...


it was right. This gets argued every year.
 
2020-08-09 7:03:56 PM  
People forget that after Hiroshima, when the Emperor decided to consider surrender, the Samurai class was so enraged they launched a coup d'etat so they could continue the war.   IJA troops fought against the Emperor's Imperial Guard in the palace.  

Again, the is AFTER the first bomb obliterated one of their cities.

When they realize we had more than one, and their armies were ineffectual in defeating the Soviet Red Army which had joined the war as the US navy and bombers beseiged their homeland, they finally surrendered.

Horrific and hopefully will never happen again.

But we are humans, so it definitely will.
 
2020-08-09 7:15:47 PM  
 The bomb(s) has always been among the most difficult ideas to wrestle with. Extremely difficult to address. Glad I wasn't Truman.
 
2020-08-09 7:16:18 PM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...

What are the two wrongs?


Being a dick for 15 years by trying to conquer the whole of Asia, then murdering 100,000 civilians in a second.
 
2020-08-09 7:34:12 PM  
Not dropping the bombs would have probably been worse.  Despite some revisionist claims that the Japanese were on the verge of surrender, there was no evidence at the time that they were willing to surrender especially after losing over 100,000 in the firebombing of Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B​ombing_​of_Tokyo (more casualties than either nuclear blast) and rejected all offers of unconditional surrender.  If the bombs had not been dropped, there would have been an invasion of Japan by the US, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati​o​n_Downfall and Soviet armies costing hundreds of thousands of allied deaths and millions of japanese deaths.  It would have resulted in another divided nation of North and South Japan that could have been another flashpoint for World War III during the cold war.

I wish the nuclear bombs hadn't been necessary and that Japan would have surrendered when the outcome was certain.  It would have saved hundreds of thousands of additional lives on both sides.  It didn't happen.  Thankfully the horrors of those bombs at least showed the power and devastation of the weapons which may have at least resulted in those actions being their only use in conflict (so far).
 
2020-08-09 7:38:52 PM  
Never again. Nothing more to say about it.
 
2020-08-09 7:43:52 PM  
If Civil War II happens, expect this.
 
2020-08-09 7:48:21 PM  
John Hersey? Check. Read it high school. Incidentally, it is possible to read things that are critical of your country, and accept those things as true, without having your patriotism damaged. It may actually make you a person looking forward.
 
2020-08-09 7:49:22 PM  
ugh.  make you a better person looking forward.
 
2020-08-09 7:50:14 PM  

luckyeddie: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...

What are the two wrongs?

Being a dick for 15 years by trying to conquer the whole of Asia, then murdering 100,000 civilians in a second.


And how many civilians would have died if we had gone with a land invasion?  Okinawa was brutal enough.
 
2020-08-09 7:50:51 PM  
When a country starts a war and says they will win or die, you have a choice. Submit or beat them. We didn't start it. We would have accepted their surrender. There was no "good" solution to that war. I, personally, am very glad we did what was necessary to win. There comes a time when good men have to do bad things to bad people.
 
2020-08-09 7:54:30 PM  

Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.


FYI- your fabulous and leisure filled life is that way because your ancestors found a better life by killing and taking the things of others.
 
2020-08-09 7:56:06 PM  

Daedalus27: Not dropping the bombs would have probably been worse.  Despite some revisionist claims that the Japanese were on the verge of surrender, there was no evidence at the time that they were willing to surrender especially after losing over 100,000 in the firebombing of Tokyo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo​mbing_of_Tokyo (more casualties than either nuclear blast) and rejected all offers of unconditional surrender.  If the bombs had not been dropped, there would have been an invasion of Japan by the US, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operatio​n_Downfall and Soviet armies costing hundreds of thousands of allied deaths and millions of japanese deaths.  It would have resulted in another divided nation of North and South Japan that could have been another flashpoint for World War III during the cold war.

I wish the nuclear bombs hadn't been necessary and that Japan would have surrendered when the outcome was certain.  It would have saved hundreds of thousands of additional lives on both sides.  It didn't happen.  Thankfully the horrors of those bombs at least showed the power and devastation of the weapons which may have at least resulted in those actions being their only use in conflict (so far).


Even TFA includes accounts from those survivors of soldiers building foxholes near the city to be used to fight to the death against invasion. Had atomic bombs never been invented it is easily possible the city would have ended up just as destroyed and with just as many civilian deaths.
 
2020-08-09 8:07:22 PM  
It ended a horrible war. Ask the guys who slowly drowned in The USS Arizona how they felt when Japan surrendered. Oh wait, you can't.

Ask the soldiers who would've died because we had to invade the home island if they were glad we dropped it. We didn't have to Invade BECAUSE we dropped it. They'd be able to answer because they weren't buried in some American cemetery in Japan.

You libs are such pearl-clutchrers when it comes to this issue, but if it had been you getting ready to invade some well-fortified Japanese military base, and suddenly didn't have to, you're lying if you say you wouldn't have been thankful for those two bombs.
 
2020-08-09 8:07:23 PM  

The_Sponge: luckyeddie: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...

What are the two wrongs?

Being a dick for 15 years by trying to conquer the whole of Asia, then murdering 100,000 civilians in a second.

And how many civilians would have died if we had gone with a land invasion?  Okinawa was brutal enough.


How many would have died if we completed the blockade and took out the remaining four million Japanese and collaborator soldiers in China and Indochina?  So many what-ifs, and zero answers.

/what if Carthage defeated Rome in the Second Punic War?
 
2020-08-09 8:07:31 PM  
Only about 100k people died in Hiroshima. No worse than the flu.
 
2020-08-09 8:08:00 PM  
Yes, war sucks and there's no depth to which will will sink to degrade our fellow man.

Read this also --

The Rape of Nanking
 
2020-08-09 8:08:49 PM  

ByOwlLight: I think a week or two after the bombings, the US Army sent peeps in to assess, provide aid, and film (I believe Nagasaki). It must have been whenever Japan surrendered, I guess. The film captured then was declassified in the mid/late 1990s. I was in high school at the time, and my AP US History teacher had us watch it. It was farking horrifying. No censoring. Shadows of people flashed permanently on the walls left standing. Clothing patterns burned into peoples' skin. A classroom with marks where the students had been. So much helplessness and hopelessness on peoples' faces. Our teacher explained that all of the US military peeps that went in died from radiation-related illnesses themselves, on top of all of the Japanese we saw dying.

He had us watch it because he wanted to make damn sure we understood. He never tried to argue it was the wrong call or anything like that. He just said look at this and understand the consequences of war. Why peace is so important to work for and hold onto.

/He also taught us about Tulsa and Black Wall Street, the Black Panthers beyond the fear-mongering, My Lai in Vietnam and the Secret War that happened in Laos, went in-depth about the Korean War instead of the sad two pages the textbook had, and a bunch of other honest takes on our history that I thought everyone learned about and apparently didn't
//My history teacher is a farking hero


🖤😭😔
 
2020-08-09 8:12:03 PM  
So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?
 
2020-08-09 8:12:23 PM  
No Chas Addams cartoon?

WTF
 
2020-08-09 8:15:06 PM  

NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?


Yes.
 
2020-08-09 8:15:19 PM  
to which will will sink

to which we will sink
 
2020-08-09 8:17:01 PM  

Algebrat: Only about 100k people died in Hiroshima. No worse than the flu.


The flu killed 50 million in one year.
 
2020-08-09 8:17:41 PM  

NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?


It does indeed excuse them. It made them the best option. You don't see any relation between the two?
 
2020-08-09 8:17:55 PM  

big pig peaches: NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Yes.


An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
 
2020-08-09 8:18:42 PM  

NM Volunteer: The_Sponge: luckyeddie: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: luckyeddie: teto85: Jackal_N: We need to be reminded of what we are capable of doing to each other. Just as in marriage, disagreements on any level of society or civilization should never get to the point of violence. It is about respect and communication. This should be required reading for everyone, every year.
Thanks, Subs.

Too bad the Japanese did not respect the rest of the world or try to communicate in a less than war like fashion from 1931 to 1945.

Two wrongs...

What are the two wrongs?

Being a dick for 15 years by trying to conquer the whole of Asia, then murdering 100,000 civilians in a second.

And how many civilians would have died if we had gone with a land invasion?  Okinawa was brutal enough.

How many would have died if we completed the blockade and took out the remaining four million Japanese and collaborator soldiers in China and Indochina?  So many what-ifs, and zero answers.

/what if Carthage defeated Rome in the Second Punic War?


Also, what if we (US) hadn't used Gunboat diplomacy via Commodore Perry's expedition to forcefully open an isolated Japan that had no desire to engage in relations, striking the tinder on what burned into a massive civil war that toppled the country's governing structure?

And What if the West hadn't flooded China with opium to address trade imbalance, destroying their economy, way of life, and paving the way for the fiercely autocratic Kuomingtang under Kai Shek and eventually their overthrow by the communist party?

The good and the bad guy in most every story is mostly just a combination of point of view and whenever you decide to arbitrarily point at as the start of conflict.
 
2020-08-09 8:19:33 PM  

NM Volunteer: big pig peaches: NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Yes.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.


It wasn't an eye for an eye.  It was a decapitation for an eye.  As was necessary.
 
2020-08-09 8:19:42 PM  
....Keep in mind too that had the two bombs been dropped and the Japanese still not given in, the next 8-15 bombs (the exact number is kinda unclear; IMHO it's probably towards the lower end) were to be dedicated to 'battlefield support' for Operation CORONET - that is, when the Allied forces came up against the 20+ IJA divisions that were believed to be defending Tokyo, we were going to use those bombs to blast our way through the Japanese lines.  Those lines, by the way, would have been reinforced with nearly one million civilian 'volunteers' who would have been mostly armed with melee weapons.

For all the sheer horror of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki dead, imagine for just one moment what the casualties would have been had we laid down multiple nuclear weapons in one of the most densely populated areas on Earth - and then marched our troops through it.
 
2020-08-09 8:20:13 PM  
Which I guess means Sweden and Switzerland will become our new all-seeing masters.
 
2020-08-09 8:20:22 PM  

NM Volunteer: big pig peaches: NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Yes.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.


An eye for an eye is a call for restraint.
 
2020-08-09 8:20:25 PM  

NM Volunteer: big pig peaches: NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Yes.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.


So I guess we should have done nothing after Pearl Harbor, eh?

And BTW, civilian casualties happened in Europe as well.  IIRC, 25,000 died during the firebombing of Dresden.
 
2020-08-09 8:21:31 PM  

NM Volunteer: big pig peaches: NM Volunteer: So what is it with people posting about Japanese war atrocities?  Does that somehow excuse two nuclear bombs and months of firebombings that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Yes.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.


I'll take "Lame sayings that are meant for children" for $1,000, Alex.
 
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