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(BBC)   Racing Point F1 team fined and docked points for designing their car using photographs of a Mercedes and some tracing paper. Ferrari set to appeal because that's their plan for next year   (bbc.co.uk) divider line
    More: Interesting, Formula One, Scuderia Ferrari, Racing Point, principal Mattia Binotto, effective copy of Mercedes, Michael Schumacher, Ferrari team, McLaren  
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235 clicks; posted to Sports » on 07 Aug 2020 at 7:45 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



19 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-08-07 6:49:25 PM  
I read that 3 times, and have no idea what did or will happen. Does sports really need to be that complicated?
 
2020-08-07 8:04:10 PM  

mr_a: I read that 3 times, and have no idea what did or will happen. Does sports really need to be that complicated?


I'll try to explain:

Mercedes and Racing Point have a equipment partnership, which includes RP getting certain parts from Mercedes. One of those parts was brake ducts.

In 2019, RP used the front brake ducts from Mercedes but not the rears because they didn't work with the 2019 car.

At the start of 2020, the rules changed and brake ducts couldn't be shared between teams. Each team had to design their own ducts.

RP is still using the 2019 front ducts, but as part of their copying of the 2019 Mercedes; started using the 2019 rear ducts.

Because the fronts were on last year's RP car, the stewards ruled that those were OK (it was decided they should be grandfathered in as legal). But because the rears are new and those are from Mercedes, that was a violation.

The penalties are where no one is happy.

RP think they shouldn't be penalized at all.

Ferrari, Renault (who filed the original complaint) and McLaren all think the penalties aren't harsh enough and (maybe more importantly) that RP shouldn't be allowed to use those ducts at all, which they're still going to be allowed to do; including this weekend.
 
2020-08-07 8:24:59 PM  
So, opposite of NASCAR.
 
2020-08-07 8:34:42 PM  

desertgeek: mr_a: I read that 3 times, and have no idea what did or will happen. Does sports really need to be that complicated?

I'll try to explain:

Mercedes and Racing Point have a equipment partnership, which includes RP getting certain parts from Mercedes. One of those parts was brake ducts.

In 2019, RP used the front brake ducts from Mercedes but not the rears because they didn't work with the 2019 car.

At the start of 2020, the rules changed and brake ducts couldn't be shared between teams. Each team had to design their own ducts.

RP is still using the 2019 front ducts, but as part of their copying of the 2019 Mercedes; started using the 2019 rear ducts.

Because the fronts were on last year's RP car, the stewards ruled that those were OK (it was decided they should be grandfathered in as legal). But because the rears are new and those are from Mercedes, that was a violation.

The penalties are where no one is happy.

RP think they shouldn't be penalized at all.

Ferrari, Renault (who filed the original complaint) and McLaren all think the penalties aren't harsh enough and (maybe more importantly) that RP shouldn't be allowed to use those ducts at all, which they're still going to be allowed to do; including this weekend.


Thanks. Maybe you should have written the article!
 
2020-08-07 8:35:16 PM  
There's also an interesting fight going on about revenues, with Merc threatening to quit, even though Valtteri's just signed a contract for next year, and McLaren and Williams needing Merc power units.

It's odd to have silly season going on during the actual season.
 
2020-08-07 8:59:23 PM  

mr_a: Thanks. Maybe you should have written the article!


I read the reports this morning and it took me an hour to figure it out. I don't fault anyone for being confused.

Ultimately, I think the stewards tried to make everyone happy with their decision. The problem with that? It never works. All that happens is everyone gets pissed off.
 
2020-08-07 9:17:44 PM  
Renault filed the original complaint because RP isn't French enough

A tactic usually used for LeMans
 
2020-08-07 9:23:41 PM  

iron de havilland: There's also an interesting fight going on about revenues, with Merc threatening to quit, even though Valtteri's just signed a contract for next year, and McLaren and Williams needing Merc power units.

It's odd to have silly season going on during the actual season.


Not sure Merc is thinking their cunning plan all the way through
 
2020-08-07 9:25:54 PM  

baka-san: iron de havilland: There's also an interesting fight going on about revenues, with Merc threatening to quit, even though Valtteri's just signed a contract for next year, and McLaren and Williams needing Merc power units.

It's odd to have silly season going on during the actual season.

Not sure Merc is thinking their cunning plan all the way through


It's surely as serious a threat as when Ferrari threaten to quit as a negotiating tool.
 
2020-08-07 9:40:46 PM  
And somehow, through all this Guenther Steiner still has a job.
 
2020-08-07 9:43:37 PM  

desertgeek: I'll try to explain:

Mercedes and Racing Point have a equipment partnership, which includes RP getting certain parts from Mercedes. One of those parts was brake ducts.

In 2019, RP used the front brake ducts from Mercedes but not the rears because they didn't work with the 2019 car.

At the start of 2020, the rules changed and brake ducts couldn't be shared between teams. Each team had to design their own ducts.

RP is still using the 2019 front ducts, but as part of their copying of the 2019 Mercedes; started using the 2019 rear ducts.

Because the fronts were on last year's RP car, the stewards ruled that those were OK (it was decided they should be grandfathered in as legal). But because the rears are new and those are from Mercedes, that was a violation.


It is rather bizarre that it was legal (then) for Mercedes to share the designs, but illegal (now) for RP to use them. If it was legal to give RP engineers that knowledge you can't exactly order them to forget that knowledge.

But then it is a bit like road cars. Plenty of cars legally sold today would not meet the law if they were introduced today, but are grandafthered in because they went into production years ago. But a manufacturer can't launch a new car today that doesn't meet todays laws and say "But we thought about this car years ago when it was legal! We just didn't actually produce it then!"

F1 is a bit contradictory at times. They insist they are trying to reduce costs for teams, but then say teams cannot buy lots of parts, they must design and make them from scratch. Other parts can be bought in with no problem, and some parts must be the same as everyone else's. Back in the seventies RP could have just bought last years Mercedes, painted it in their colours and gone racing.
 
2020-08-07 9:46:05 PM  

bubba_2ba: And somehow, through all this Guenther Steiner still has a job.


There's probably some sort of rule that requires it.
 
2020-08-07 9:46:59 PM  

desertgeek: mr_a: I read that 3 times, and have no idea what did or will happen. Does sports really need to be that complicated?

I'll try to explain:

Mercedes and Racing Point have a equipment partnership, which includes RP getting certain parts from Mercedes. One of those parts was brake ducts.

In 2019, RP used the front brake ducts from Mercedes but not the rears because they didn't work with the 2019 car.

At the start of 2020, the rules changed and brake ducts couldn't be shared between teams. Each team had to design their own ducts.

RP is still using the 2019 front ducts, but as part of their copying of the 2019 Mercedes; started using the 2019 rear ducts.

Because the fronts were on last year's RP car, the stewards ruled that those were OK (it was decided they should be grandfathered in as legal). But because the rears are new and those are from Mercedes, that was a violation.

The penalties are where no one is happy.

RP think they shouldn't be penalized at all.

Ferrari, Renault (who filed the original complaint) and McLaren all think the penalties aren't harsh enough and (maybe more importantly) that RP shouldn't be allowed to use those ducts at all, which they're still going to be allowed to do; including this weekend.


Good job. Clear and concise.
 
2020-08-07 9:50:17 PM  

iron de havilland: There's also an interesting fight going on about revenues, with Merc threatening to quit, even though Valtteri's just signed a contract for next year, and McLaren and Williams needing Merc power units.

It's odd to have silly season going on during the actual season.


Mercedes is mad because they're putting spending limits next year, which means that Mercedes (and Ferrari) can't simply throwing 200+ million more dollars at the problem.

Of course if they win, 2021 F1 grid will be two Mercedes cars, two Ferrari cars...and that's it. Because you can run an entire NASCAR season on $15 million, and Indycar on $20M, but Mercedes and Ferrari are spending over $400 million and teams that can't spend that simply cannot win.

And Mercedes is mad that they can't just spend their way to a win anymore after this year.
 
2020-08-07 9:52:20 PM  

baka-san: iron de havilland: There's also an interesting fight going on about revenues, with Merc threatening to quit, even though Valtteri's just signed a contract for next year, and McLaren and Williams needing Merc power units.

It's odd to have silly season going on during the actual season.

Not sure Merc is thinking their cunning plan all the way through


They could quit as a team but carry on as an engine supplier. Given how good that engine is they could probably coast for the next five years with hardly any money spent on development, just selling their engines until the competition becomes too strong and they become uncompetitive. They could even go back to using the Ilmor name. They're the people who actually make the engine.
 
2020-08-07 9:54:54 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Mercedes is mad because they're putting spending limits next year, which means that Mercedes (and Ferrari) can't simply throwing 200+ million more dollars at the problem.


Driver wages are excluded from the spending cap, so they can win by throwing money at the best driver they can find. Luckily for them Lewis is already racing for them.
 
2020-08-07 11:28:25 PM  

desertgeek: mr_a: Thanks. Maybe you should have written the article!

I read the reports this morning and it took me an hour to figure it out. I don't fault anyone for being confused.

Ultimately, I think the stewards tried to make everyone happy with their decision. The problem with that? It never works. All that happens is everyone gets pissed off.


I watched Chain Bear's video on it earlier today.  I thought he did a good job laying everything out in a clear manor, it still took him 9 minutes to do it.  So major kudos to you for managing to do it as concisely as you did.

Why Racing Point broke the rules... and survived! Sort of
Youtube 1TD30oDBpmI
 
2020-08-07 11:49:23 PM  

Polish Hussar: I watched Chain Bear's video on it earlier today.  I thought he did a good job laying everything out in a clear manor, it still took him 9 minutes to do it.  So major kudos to you for managing to do it as concisely as you did.


I saw that earlier too and he helped validate my interpretation of the ruling. The protests are just easier to explain (and if I was a midfield team boss, I think I'd be considering an appeal, too).

bubba_2ba: And somehow, through all this Guenther Steiner still has a job.


I'm convinced Netflix is bribing someone to keep him around.
 
2020-08-08 9:04:30 AM  
Wow. The stewards finally managed to do something unifying across F1. They pissed everyone off.

5 teams set to appeal. Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, and Racing Point themselves! That's half the paddock!

Hell, only Honda teams aren't really represented because they are watching to see how much more they can have the Torro Rosso Alfa CenTauri beg borrow and steal from the big brother team.
 
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