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(Reason Magazine)   Car rental agency: "we obviously didn't know that guy had drugs when we rented him a car." Police: "free car"   (reason.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Asset forfeiture, Supreme Court of the United States, Rohith Mathew, Illegal drug trade, Police, federal civil asset forfeiture law, Manni Munir, federal court  
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5976 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 07 Aug 2020 at 12:53 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-06 8:41:44 PM  
I was hoping it was Hertz or Avis or somebody who had enough influence to fight this nonsense which has been going on for decades.

If he fights hard, he might get his car back but it still won't stop this.
 
2020-08-06 10:52:09 PM  
"If I was Hertz, if I was Avis, they wouldn't try to seize the car," Munir told the Clarion-Ledger.

Which is why Hertz or Avis don't have to fight this nonsense.
 
2020-08-06 11:11:22 PM  
I can only think of one group of people who would support civil forfeiture. Getting rid of it should be a bipartisan issue, even now.
 
2020-08-06 11:57:03 PM  
'Murica.
 
2020-08-07 12:57:13 AM  
This is what defund the police is all about.
 
2020-08-07 1:00:51 AM  
See. Slippery slope isn't a fallacy.
Asset forfeiture is perfectly fine there's no slippery slope that's going to hurt someone else.
Idiots.
 
2020-08-07 1:08:39 AM  
Any government, state or federal that allows such an obvious conflict of interest is as corrupt as any backwards ass banana republic you can imagine.
Things like this and "gravy train" radar traps on interstates are part of the reason people flee the police and risk innocent lives. Just another letter on the gravestone of the publics trust.
The epitaph will be "here lies respectable law enforcement."
 
2020-08-07 1:12:55 AM  

My Sober Alt: I was hoping it was Hertz or Avis or somebody who had enough influence to fight this nonsense which has been going on for decades.

If he fights hard, he might get his car back but it still won't stop this.


Donating money to civil liberties groups, badgering the shiat out of your congressperson, voting and letting new candidates have an earful about it will help, however. Also, social media seems to have an effect on things like this.
 
2020-08-07 1:15:03 AM  
How long before a peer-to-peer car rental/sharing  app gets their own lesson?
 
2020-08-07 1:17:43 AM  
Cops are the biggest crooks.
 
2020-08-07 1:26:07 AM  
If I'm correct, any properties seized in such a way have to be sold at a public auction. However, not all public auctions are that public.

As a courier, I was delivering a package to the local court house and was using the back stairs, when I came upon a little group of people standing there: a judge, a 'witness', a 'second interested party' and the primary bidder along with a lawyer. Right there, they auctioned off to the primary bidder a property worth a couple of million for a fraction of it's cost.

'Public auction' indeed. There has to be an announcement of the auction posted several days in advance for the public to see. There was, down on the boiler room door where the public can go but rarely do.

I walked out of there having an idea how if feels to be raped.
 
2020-08-07 1:27:28 AM  
As Giacomo Bologna reports.

That's fine reportin there, Bologna.
 
2020-08-07 1:35:50 AM  

HempHead: This is what defund the police is all about.


Yeah, but defunding the police will increase the banditry.
 
2020-08-07 1:36:27 AM  
methamphetamine, heroin, MDMA, Adderall, and Xanax, along with three loaded firearms

y.yarn.coView Full Size
 
2020-08-07 1:59:18 AM  
Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?
 
2020-08-07 2:17:42 AM  
Using a rental to smuggle so the police can't seize your assets? That's clever. Bury it away and leave no prints, you have reasonable doubt.
 
2020-08-07 2:38:21 AM  

HempHead: This is what defund the police is all about.


If you defund the police, then civil asset forfeitures will soar.  How else are police supposed to fund their operations when city councils defund them?
 
2020-08-07 2:51:58 AM  

MythDragon: Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?


The morning run on K10 (speed limit 70).... 85 is for the right lane, 95 is the left. That's from the 435 loop out of Kansas City to Lawrence.
 
2020-08-07 3:00:03 AM  

baron von doodle: MythDragon: Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?

The morning run on K10 (speed limit 70).... 85 is for the right lane, 95 is the left. That's from the 435 loop out of Kansas City to Lawrence.


Didn't they make the limit 75 out in the boonies, or was that just 70?

/don't leave town much anymore
 
2020-08-07 3:13:24 AM  
What happens if there still is a loan on the car?
 
2020-08-07 3:13:57 AM  
If he has to prove it in federal court shouldn't the feds get the car, I'm confused.

Why is a confiscation by the state ending up in federal court?

Did I read that right?
 
2020-08-07 3:16:07 AM  
Crossing state lines Maybe?
 
2020-08-07 3:34:18 AM  
Fark illegal property seizures by police.

This is America, not a middle eastern autocracy.
 
2020-08-07 3:47:28 AM  
Back in the 90s the cops did that with a mechanic's car in my hometown and the next day all their cruisers mysteriously had dead batteries and wouldn't take a jump.
 
2020-08-07 4:11:41 AM  
Defund / Abolish the Police.
 
2020-08-07 4:15:30 AM  
media1.tenor.comView Full Size

Bring back Cash Bribes Only
 
2020-08-07 5:57:59 AM  

Animatronik: Fark illegal property seizures by police.

This is America, not a middle eastern autocracy.


This is normal in America, the world's richest police state.
 
2020-08-07 6:09:06 AM  
He needs to call the police every farking day to report that his car was stolen. If they are going to be a pain in the ass about this, then so can he, and he has every right to be.
 
2020-08-07 6:18:51 AM  
POLICE lie to Uber Driver/Attorney
Youtube -UQKkYWDUQ4


Headline reminds me of this gem
 
2020-08-07 6:34:22 AM  

MegaLib: Defund / Abolish the Police.


Username checks out
 
2020-08-07 7:18:56 AM  

Do you know the way to Mordor: He needs to call the police every farking day to report that his car was stolen. If they are going to be a pain in the ass about this, then so can he, and he has every right to be.


That seems like a good way to get arrested for making a false report, wasting police resources, and creatin' a nuisance.
 
2020-08-07 7:28:40 AM  

MythDragon: Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?


People who get "anonymous tips" from the Drug Enforcement Agency's Special Operations Division which takes illegally gotten evidence like unconstitutional warrantless NSA wiretaps and passes it on to state and local police.

They'll say "look for make/model/color/plate vehicle that will pass through your area", and the police will find a reason to stop it, even if they have to invent one.

And no, I'm not making that up.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-de​a​-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-c​over-up-program-used-to-investigate-am​ericans-idUSBRE97409R20130805

A former federal agent in the northeastern United States who received such tips from SOD described the process. "You'd be told only, 'Be at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.' And so we'd alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it," the agent said.
 
2020-08-07 7:30:14 AM  

myth321: What happens if there still is a loan on the car?


You're still on the hook for the loan.
 
2020-08-07 7:37:51 AM  

Animatronik: Fark illegal property seizures by police.

This is America, not a middle eastern autocracy.


Wait, wasn't that Ron RayGun and the republicans that started all this?

Vote.
 
2020-08-07 7:42:37 AM  

dittybopper: myth321: What happens if there still is a loan on the car?

You're still on the hook for the loan.


And you are no longer the owner, which means it is now unsecured and they will want the loan repaid in full immediately or (depending on how state law is worded) you co2ld now technically be a felon, as not maintaining ownership of collateral for a loan is a felony in at least some states. Texas, for example. They might have an exception for police seizure of the collateral. Dunno, it is more fun to speculate that they don't. I'll leave that up to an attorney from Texas to speak up on that.
 
2020-08-07 7:42:50 AM  

1funguy: Animatronik: Fark illegal property seizures by police.

This is America, not a middle eastern autocracy.

Wait, wasn't that Ron RayGun and the republicans that started all this?

Vote.


I believe the Dens controlled congress in the '80s. Your major point stands.
 
2020-08-07 7:44:05 AM  

MythDragon: Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?


Anything outside major cities, you see this all the time. I live in a smallish city (<200k) and have been stopped for less than 10 over many times. Rarely a ticket with most being warnings, which usually means they are fishing for something else. There are towns nearby where you just know that you don't go over the speed limit at all. In my twenties, I was stopped for going 2 over in a little podunk town near my hometown.
 
2020-08-07 7:45:14 AM  
On a Tuesday evening last April, a black 2015 Chevrolet Malibu with Texas plates was traveling west on Interstate 10 in Mississippi when Hancock County Sheriff's Deputy Danny Gilkerson pulled it over, ostensibly for exceeding the speed limit by about eight miles per hour. Based on an alert by a drug-sniffing dog, the cops searched the car

Yep.  Sounds suspiciously like a classic Special Operations Division.... erm..... operation.

This is why, if I'm ever on a jury, and guilt hinges upon the police getting an "anonymous tip" or pulling someone over on some pretext and then doing a search, I'm going to have a real hard time voting "Guilty".  I'm generally a "law and order" kind of guy.  But civil asset forfeiture and *ESPECIALLY* the police violating the Fourth Amendment at the direction of the federal government really pisses me off.
 
2020-08-07 7:47:42 AM  
NSS. Obvious is obvious. The war on drugs is a war on the citizen. Politicians and police are the only ones that "gain" from it. It does not much impact those wealthy enough to be lawyered. Trump's got to love this shiat.
 
2020-08-07 7:52:44 AM  

Sugarmoobs: MythDragon: Pulled over for 8mph over, on the Goddamn interstate?? What the crap? You'll get your ass run over on I95 if you're not doing at least 10 over. Who pulls people over for less than 14 over?

Anything outside major cities, you see this all the time. I live in a smallish city (<200k) and have been stopped for less than 10 over many times. Rarely a ticket with most being warnings, which usually means they are fishing for something else. There are towns nearby where you just know that you don't go over the speed limit at all. In my twenties, I was stopped for going 2 over in a little podunk town near my hometown.


Not on the interstate.  At least, not where I live.  I've blown past many cops doing 5 to 10 MPH over on the highway.  They don't care, not worth their time and trouble.

The only time I've gotten a ticket for speeding since the 1980's was about 4 years ago when I was doing 76 in a 55 zone, which is 21 over.   It's an area where the speed limit drops from 65 to 55.  Just a couple miles back, they wouldn't have bothered to pull me over.

Oh, and despite the fact that my car was full of radios and had an antenna farm on the roof, and I had a Mohawk hairstyle with a long ponytail, cop just gave me the ticket and sent me on my way.

That's probably because the DEA SOD didn't have any intercepts from the NSA saying I was hauling drugs.
 
2020-08-07 7:54:19 AM  

HempHead: This is what defund the police is all about.


Oh... then shouldn't we turn the movement into defund Congress instead?  They are the ones who pass the laws, the police just enforce them.
 
2020-08-07 7:55:17 AM  

waxbeans: See. Slippery slope isn't a fallacy.
Asset forfeiture is perfectly fine there's no slippery slope that's going to hurt someone else.
Idiots.


Slippery slopes are a logical fallacy, but we don't live on the Planet Vulcan.

Slippery slopes do happen in real life, they are a real danger, and the mechanisms by which they work have been described:

https://www2.law.ucla.edu/Volokh/slip​p​eryshorter.pdf
 
2020-08-07 8:01:49 AM  

Spermbot: HempHead: This is what defund the police is all about.

If you defund the police, then civil asset forfeitures will soar.  How else are police supposed to fund their operations when city councils defund them?


Declaw the police. They are a rabid animal hurting anyone who gets within range.

While you are at it defang them and remove their poison glands.

In this case, it means to force them to have the burden of proof that an asset is owned by the criminal and was purchased with illegally obtained money. If that illegal obtaining was by theft then the victim gets the asset.
 
2020-08-07 8:16:11 AM  

Sugarmoobs: I was stopped for going 2 over in a little podunk town near my hometown.


Yep, i was stopped once for 36 in a 35. When the other cops showed up they laughed at him and let me go.
 
2020-08-07 8:19:53 AM  

1funguy: Wait, wasn't that Ron RayGun and the republicans that started all this?


Both sides are bad.  Reagan certainly played his part, but Joe Biden was the guy behind the Comprehensive Forfeiture Act of 1984.
 
2020-08-07 8:21:46 AM  

Spermbot: HempHead: This is what defund the police is all about.

If you defund the police, then civil asset forfeitures will soar.  How else are police supposed to fund their operations when city councils defund them?


Eliminating civil asset forfeiture and eliminating funding of police departments through fines are a key part of defunding the police.
 
2020-08-07 8:52:39 AM  

1funguy: Animatronik: Fark illegal property seizures by police.

This is America, not a middle eastern autocracy.

Wait, wasn't that Ron RayGun and the republicans that started all this?

Vote.


Civil asset forfeiture goes back a ways before the 80s. When the FDA started seizing mislabeled and dangerous drugs, basically the system for freight was that a pallet would go to a warehouse and someone with a pickup number would retrieve it. If nobody showed up to get the shipment, there was no owner. The FDA ended up having to warehouse the stuff indefinitely because they couldn't condemn and destroy property without due process. Civil forfeiture was the process worked out to be able to actually close cases on abandoned, illegal property.

I don't know who weaponized it. I know Nixon created the DEA, it was expected to be wound down by the next guy, which never happened. Reagan sounds right for expanding it but the concept was already there, it just needed to be stretched from a reasonable "abandoned property that needs to be destroyed" to "in association with suspected crimes" and from "to be destroyed" to "to be kept/sold by the government."
 
2020-08-07 8:53:07 AM  

dittybopper: myth321: What happens if there still is a loan on the car?

You're still on the hook for the loan.


And if you don't pay, and the bank reposses, do they just roll up to the cops and take it back? Or are cops exempt from having their shiat repoed?
 
2020-08-07 8:53:22 AM  

Rik01: If I'm correct, any properties seized in such a way have to be sold at a public auction. However, not all public auctions are that public.

As a courier, I was delivering a package to the local court house and was using the back stairs, when I came upon a little group of people standing there: a judge, a 'witness', a 'second interested party' and the primary bidder along with a lawyer. Right there, they auctioned off to the primary bidder a property worth a couple of million for a fraction of it's cost.

'Public auction' indeed. There has to be an announcement of the auction posted several days in advance for the public to see. There was, down on the boiler room door where the public can go but rarely do.

I walked out of there having an idea how if feels to be raped.


On display they were. They were in the basement, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuffed in the back of a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"
 
2020-08-07 8:57:36 AM  

JuggleGeek: 1funguy: Wait, wasn't that Ron RayGun and the republicans that started all this?

Both sides are bad.  Reagan certainly played his part, but Joe Biden was the guy behind the Comprehensive Forfeiture Act of 1984.


What we have today wasn't from the CFA, though, which was a bad piece of legislation but still required the owner to be charged for either civil or criminal forfeiture and left all constitutional rights intact.

This whole era of, "United States vs. Six Small Cardboard Boxes Containing Various Fish Byproducts," end runs around the constitution was created whole cloth by the courts by a mix of Reagan, Clinton, and Bush II appointed judges.
 
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