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(TaxProf)   Common mistakes professors make in online teaching. Does not include falling for students renaming themselves Zoom asking for full computer access   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line
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2558 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Aug 2020 at 10:05 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-05 9:35:56 AM  
1. Take old articles.

2. Put "online" in the title.

3. Profit?
 
2020-08-05 9:40:31 AM  
Do any of these involve or not involve pants?
 
2020-08-05 9:40:31 AM  
No pants.
 
2020-08-05 9:44:40 AM  
 
2020-08-05 10:06:11 AM  
Does it involve a slide carousel or acetate on an overhead projector?
 
2020-08-05 10:07:20 AM  
These are common mistakes in teaching since the dawn of time
 
2020-08-05 10:09:18 AM  

Fano: Does it involve a slide carousel or acetate on an overhead projector?


No.  It involves literally nothing.  Here is the article:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 10:09:37 AM  

pueblonative: Do any of these involve or not involve pants?


https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2009​-05-01
 
2020-08-05 10:10:30 AM  
Just saying, pants is a problem that preceded Zoom.
 
2020-08-05 10:12:27 AM  

Pinche Mateo: 1. Take old articles.

2. Put "online" in the title.

3. Profit?

Tenure

FTFY
 
2020-08-05 10:13:02 AM  
Until I left for the infrastructure side, I helped drive online classes for 20 years.

FTFA - "include over-assigning work, recording lectures that are too lengthy, not engaging in multiple formats of learning, being disorganized, and not engaging with students. "

3 out of 4  ... not bad.

You may be a great lecturer.  But no one is going to watch a 2 hour talking head video as a substitute.

Being disorganized - yes.  I've actually dropped a class where I spent 45 minutes trying to figure out how find out what I should be doing first.  Sad considering I did all the training for that system, both faculty workshops and writing guides for students.

Not engaging students - not sure on that.   I'd argue more for "not being responsive to students".  IE, if I email a question during working hours, I should get a response that day.  If after hours/weekends, I should get a response next business day.   If I turn in something for a grade, and the next thing depends on building on it (programming class,etc) OR it is close to a drop/withdraw deadline,etc. then by god you better get it graded quick.

Other stuff - not keeping students informed of their progress/grade or lack thereof.


Lemme know when the article to biatch about student behavior for classes and online classes gets posted - I have a list for that too.  :)

(And yes, when teaching workshops, faculty make the worst students)
 
2020-08-05 10:18:16 AM  
I'm taking online courses. 11:59 PM yesterday was the due date for a final project. I turned it in midday. [all caps rage mode on]
AT 6 farkING PM THE INSTRUCTOR POSTED A LONG VIDEO EXPLAINING HOW SHE WANTS THE FINAL PROJECT TO LOOK.

Thank goodness the course evaluations are open. I just submitted a rant that makes the Pol tab look like Mr Rodgers has been posting.
 
2020-08-05 10:23:31 AM  

sleze: Fano: Does it involve a slide carousel or acetate on an overhead projector?

No.  It involves literally nothing.  Here is the article:

[Fark user image 808x534]


See the words "Common Mistakes in Online Teaching" in blue?  That's a link to a place where you can download the paper (you need to make an account and maybe pay a fee, though).  This is just an abstract for said paper; not really an "article" in any sense of the word.
 
2020-08-05 10:28:51 AM  

i.r.id10t: recording lectures that are too lengthy


I don't have a problem with that. Instead of sitting through a dull, droning, 3 hour lecture, I can crank up the speed and watch it in two (and can play with my phone when he goes on a tangent).

/even cut the time in half if the instructor is a particularly slow talker.
 
2020-08-05 10:30:24 AM  
There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

What's necessary here is a retooling of the curriculum, not chastising the educators for being ineffective at an impossible task.
 
2020-08-05 10:32:15 AM  

Petite Mel: i.r.id10t: recording lectures that are too lengthy

I don't have a problem with that. Instead of sitting through a dull, droning, 3 hour lecture, I can crank up the speed and watch it in two (and can play with my phone when he goes on a tangent).

/even cut the time in half if the instructor is a particularly slow talker.


Yeah if I can fast forward and reverse at will that's better than the bad old days of having to sit there in person and pretend to pay attention and wishing death on the one dorkus who HAD to ask a useless question that led the boring professor onto an even more boring and useless tangent.
 
2020-08-05 10:34:47 AM  

Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

What's necessary here is a retooling of the curriculum, not chastising the educators for being ineffective at an impossible task.


This. When quarantine started I started a few course cycles on Khan Academy to brush up some programming skills. The content itself was obviously geared toward a much younger audience but it was delivered really, really well with 15-ish minute modules, lots of well designed practice environments, and assessments throughout that allowed you to keep building on the knowledge being acquired.
 
2020-08-05 10:37:41 AM  
I'm so old every time I hear Zoom mentioned, I think of Bernadette doing that arm thingy:

thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 10:43:36 AM  

Petite Mel: i.r.id10t: recording lectures that are too lengthy

I don't have a problem with that. Instead of sitting through a dull, droning, 3 hour lecture, I can crank up the speed and watch it in two (and can play with my phone when he goes on a tangent).

/even cut the time in half if the instructor is a particularly slow talker.


The "right" way to do it is to break it down into 5-10 minute sub-topic based chunks, maybe 15 for something very complex.

1 - easier to do updates. Don't need to re-do the whole video if ONE sub-topic changed.
2 - easier to do things suddenly required, like ADA compliance stuff.
2b - makes splitting the work for making it ADA compliant (98%+ accurate captioning, etc) possible/easier
3 - for students, to review one part as needed for homework/exam prep, they don't need to rewatch the whole thing.  Just the sub-topics they need/want
4 - makes sharing content with other instructors a lot easier.
 
2020-08-05 10:45:35 AM  

dittybopper: I'm so old every time I hear Zoom mentioned, I think of Bernadette doing that arm thingy:

[thumbs.gfycat.com image 475x273] [View Full Size image _x_]


That always freaked me out.
Then she taught us all how to do it on a very special episode.

/the episode was special because she showed us how to do that arm thingy.
 
2020-08-05 10:57:43 AM  

Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.


The problem is that developing an asynchronous online course takes time and skill, and not many faculty have those. As a result, they're doing synchronous teaching which is much more difficult to do well online.
 
2020-08-05 11:00:05 AM  

Petite Mel: dittybopper: I'm so old every time I hear Zoom mentioned, I think of Bernadette doing that arm thingy:

[thumbs.gfycat.com image 475x273] [View Full Size image _x_]

That always freaked me out.
Then she taught us all how to do it on a very special episode.

/the episode was special because she showed us how to do that arm thingy.


I'd hit it:

Bernadette Makes A Tissue Box Guitar - ZOOM Into Action
Youtube UZnD783c8Vs


She's actually a bit older than me, but only by a handful of years.  She looks good for 60.
 
2020-08-05 11:01:03 AM  

i.r.id10t: (And yes, when teaching workshops, faculty make the worst students)


A thousand times this.  Man... I winced just reading that.
 
2020-08-05 11:10:27 AM  
Having the window of the hawt chick maximized when the wife can see the monitor?

Courtney, u can't see you face. Please turn your camera lower. Lower please.  That's good.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 11:18:32 AM  
I can't put much credence into something that refers to the "Socratic" method and then feels required to explain that he was a philosopher in Ancient Greece...

You are writing this for the edification of professors, correct?
 
2020-08-05 11:56:14 AM  

Zevon's Evil Twin: I can't put much credence into something that refers to the "Socratic" method and then feels required to explain that he was a philosopher in Ancient Greece...

You are writing this for the edification of professors, correct?


If you see something in an academic paper that clarifies something a reasonably smart lab monkey understands then it's probably because of a reviewer being an asshole.

Or reviewing a paper so far out of their specialty they legitimately didn't know.
 
2020-08-05 12:12:47 PM  
In March, it took one week for a student to photoshop a TA's comments to look racist, and post it online, getting more than 50,000 angry responses. That shut down the online tutorials in one department real damn fast.

Online learning is pure evil. Students are terrified because of how fast their posts get clipped and shared publicly. It is doomed to fail because of that, basically.
 
2020-08-05 12:24:25 PM  
Pretty much all of the stuff that i.r.id10t and Some Farking Lurker said. Education at all levels, from elementary to university, has simply dabbled in shoehorning a few tech tools into a system that hasn't really changed much for over 100 years (and in the case of universities, far longer). There hasn't been a system-wide rethinking of "how can we take advantage of technology and the various methods to deliver content, and figure out how to match them up with the actual content"?

Even before Covid, they could have laid the foundation. Take freshman-level university courses, for example. There is no good reason to have thousands of Chem101 lecturers across the country standing there delivering the same content to 50-400 students at a time. Hook up with someone like the Green brothers, CGP Grey or the people at Kurzgesagt, turn that content into videos that are going to be far more interesting anyway, and now you can deliver that same basic content to millions. That, in turn, frees up the university staff to focus on labs and other content that are better served in-person. It also builds a body of knowledge that students can go back to, and saves a boatload of time and money for everyone involved.

/Ditto for the K-12 system, or at least 6-12. Instead of using class time to watch the presentation/video/whatever and send the kids home to do the work, flip it around. The homework is to watch the video, and you do the work in class where there is someone around to help.
 
2020-08-05 12:34:36 PM  

BretMavrik: Instead of using class time to watch the presentation/video/whatever and send the kids home to do the work, flip it around. The homework is to watch the video, and you do the work in class where there is someone around to help


Yup, this is the way I teach my Linux classes (basic intro to and then lan/internet services).  You can read all about dnz zone files or how mail servers work.  But when you can't figure out why your domain isn't resolving, having someone very experienced there to actually LOOK at your stuff and walk you through the really sticky part is really kinda critical.
 
2020-08-05 12:35:11 PM  

Fear the Clam: Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

The problem is that developing an asynchronous online course takes time and skill, and not many faculty have those. As a result, they're doing synchronous teaching which is much more difficult to do well online.


That was exactly my point. The curriculum and delivery mechanisms need to be restructured to account for the new reality in which we find ourselves. That's not a faculty task, that's an administration/management task.

This is also not something public educators need to invent. There are already best practices around this - good models that could be leveraged. A mix of platforms already in use for online training, existing home school curriculum systems, and teachers providing online student support would deliver significantly better results than trying to replicate the classroom experience over Zoom.
 
2020-08-05 12:52:27 PM  

Zevon's Evil Twin: I can't put much credence into something that refers to the "Socratic" method and then feels required to explain that he was a philosopher in Ancient Greece...

You are writing this for the edification of professors, correct?


The one thing I learned when working with law school professors is that all of them think they're using the Socratic method and yet none of them have any idea what it actually is. It's like they saw The Paper Chase years ago and that's the only part they remember.

/The worst versions of online education at our university came from the law school.
 
2020-08-05 1:03:28 PM  

Some Farking Lurker: Fear the Clam: Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

The problem is that developing an asynchronous online course takes time and skill, and not many faculty have those. As a result, they're doing synchronous teaching which is much more difficult to do well online.

That was exactly my point. The curriculum and delivery mechanisms need to be restructured to account for the new reality in which we find ourselves. That's not a faculty task, that's an administration/management task.

This is also not something public educators need to invent. There are already best practices around this - good models that could be leveraged. A mix of platforms already in use for online training, existing home school curriculum systems, and teachers providing online student support would deliver significantly better results than trying to replicate the classroom experience over Zoom.


Alas, all those big bucks spent on curriculum specialists and proactive learning policy makers wasn't enough to attract the best and brightest to the profession. Maybe we could just tell the teachers to design and implement such a comprehensive policy from the ground up, and failing that, tell the teachers to focus on the core and they should teach harderer?
 
2020-08-05 1:07:04 PM  

Fear the Clam: Zevon's Evil Twin: I can't put much credence into something that refers to the "Socratic" method and then feels required to explain that he was a philosopher in Ancient Greece...

You are writing this for the edification of professors, correct?

The one thing I learned when working with law school professors is that all of them think they're using the Socratic method and yet none of them have any idea what it actually is. It's like they saw The Paper Chase years ago and that's the only part they remember.

/The worst versions of online education at our university came from the law school.


Wait, is the Socratic Method where you play a gotcha trivia game in class, where random students are called up to guess what you are thinking in a trick question designed to make the answerer look like a fool and the questioner to look like a genius?

Wait. That actually IS how Socrates operated.
 
2020-08-05 1:28:40 PM  

Fear the Clam: Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is delivered and how effective classroom education is delivered. I've taken a lot of good self-directed online technology courses. Generally, the good ones have some common elements - specific learning objectives, supported by short chunks of information delivered by video and supporting material, required self directed information gathering, exercises that allow you to work with the concept, and a knowledge check that reinforces what you're learning rather than penalizing you for not picking up the concept on the first pass.

The education system has failed to make to pivot necessary to successfully deliver in home education. Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

The problem is that developing an asynchronous online course takes time and skill, and not many faculty have those. As a result, they're doing synchronous teaching which is much more difficult to do well online.


Can't speak for all teachers, especially those who have been teaching longer than 10 years, but when I went to school for education in WI I had to take a few instructional technology courses that covered a lot of this stuff. Self-guided explorations and lesson plans, project based assessment, breaking lessons into modules, etc. Developing this kind of content and delivering it requires a different skill set from actually managing a classroom, but some self learning platforms (Khan Academy is one) already has a teacher/classroom mode that allows teachers to monitor their students' progress and milestones and directly evaluate projects and provide feedback. With the resources already out there, there's seriously no excuse for teachers to not be able to "get" how to deliver online instruction.
 
2020-08-05 1:38:56 PM  

Fear the Clam: Some Farking Lurker: There is a big difference between how effective online learning is

Educators are being given video conferencing tools, and are trying to deliver the same content over the internet as though they were in the classroom. The content has not changed. The assignments have not changed. This approach ignores the fundamental reality of the situation.

The problem is that developing an asynchronous online course takes time and skill, and not many faculty have those. As a result, they're doing synchronous teaching which is much more difficult to do well online.



So very much this. I went round and round with traditional faculty from my alma mater, trying to explain to them how to adapt to online format, even offering to help. They ignored it all, recorded their lectures (just them talking away at an empty room), posted multiple guess tests, and were just astonished how poorly everything went. Their follow-up was how awful and stupid online education is.

Academia is a very conservative environment. The military has a radically rapid rate of change by comparison.
 
2020-08-05 1:43:11 PM  
If it's women forgetting to put tops on, I'll take the class
 
2020-08-05 2:55:31 PM  
Some Farking Lurker:
This is also not something public educators need to invent. There are already best practices around this - good models that could be leveraged. A mix of platforms already in use for online training, existing home school curriculum systems, and teachers providing online student support would deliver significantly better results than trying to replicate the classroom experience over Zoom.

I may be teaching a college level physics class online this fall. Can you supply some links?

FTFA - "include over-assigning work, recording lectures that are too lengthy, not engaging in multiple formats of learning, being disorganized, and not engaging with students. "

How do I address multiple formats of learning over video? It's not like I can have them turn to their neighbor and discuss something.

Also, how can I engage with students when they don't have a camera and/or microphone? (Or don't turn them on.)
 
2020-08-05 2:55:45 PM  

dittybopper: I'm so old every time I hear Zoom mentioned, I think of Bernadette doing that arm thingy:

[thumbs.gfycat.com image 475x273] [View Full Size image _x_]


hehe....you're old, like me!

/she sure was cute
 
2020-08-05 3:27:36 PM  

NotARocketScientist: Some Farking Lurker:
This is also not something public educators need to invent. There are already best practices around this - good models that could be leveraged. A mix of platforms already in use for online training, existing home school curriculum systems, and teachers providing online student support would deliver significantly better results than trying to replicate the classroom experience over Zoom.

I may be teaching a college level physics class online this fall. Can you supply some links?

FTFA - "include over-assigning work, recording lectures that are too lengthy, not engaging in multiple formats of learning, being disorganized, and not engaging with students. "

How do I address multiple formats of learning over video? It's not like I can have them turn to their neighbor and discuss something.

Also, how can I engage with students when they don't have a camera and/or microphone? (Or don't turn them on.)


Get thee to Canvas and create an account and course.  Or check with your school to see what they support.  https://canvas.instructure.com

Build around Modules.  Really easy.  Add discussions (graded or not), quizzes, assignment drop boxes, etc.
 
2020-08-05 4:10:22 PM  
My last consulting project was building an online learning platform for an insurance expert that had been teaching classroom style seminars for 40 years. Everything he taught was at least an hour long and sometimes two. He thought I was a lunatic when I told him we had to cut all his material down to 6-8 minute segments if he wanted anyone to actually buy it.

I think we got it down to where the longest was about 15 min though.
 
2020-08-05 10:50:27 PM  

NotARocketScientist: How do I address multiple formats of learning over video? It's not like I can have them turn to their neighbor and discuss something.


Many of the online systems for teaching allow the instructor to split out students into groups.  The problem is if the 1st student drops out mid session, the next time you break it into groups of 3, the groups all have 1/3 different members.

Have another device so you can see your stuff from the students point of view.  Have a helper the 1st time you do this.  A techy kid might be useful and they don't need to understand the subject at all, just the willingness to say things like "your camera is pointing at the ceiling."

If you have never used the system before, do a test run.  The 1st day of class (or before) offer offer an 2nd session where you and students can get used to the system.  Even run at quiz/test if you can. Have the test cover the types of questions (like open ended, multiple choice) , you will be using and use it to provide feedback. Ask a few questions in the practice test and have the students get it wrong, "Answer this incorrectly: blue is 1) green, 2) blue" then you can mark it as wrong "green isn't blue and you should review section X" sort of feedback.  If they need to answer using formulas on an online test, ask them to type in something like  (∇XY)k=Xi(∇iY)k=Xi( (∂Yk/∂xi)+ΓkimYm) and see how readable the answers are to you.  Ask them how long it took them to type it in as well.
 
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