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(Huffington Post)   Yeah, good luck with that, guys, in a day and age when even chicks call each other "Dude"   (huffpost.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Gender, Transgender, gender identity, Gender role, GLSEN's guide, Gender identity, language creeps, gender-neutral language  
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795 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 05 Aug 2020 at 5:48 AM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

 
2020-08-05 7:47:44 AM  
10 votes:

Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.


Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*
 
2020-08-05 2:59:19 AM  
8 votes:
Or we could just keep using it to apply to mixed-gender groups until the generations that considered it a "masculine word" die off.

Sorry if I come across as crotchety, I've actually been feeling rather gay all day.
 
2020-08-05 6:48:53 AM  
5 votes:

HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".


Mostly correct.  I love to see people posting stuff like this on Fark.  I just want to commandeer this post to mention something that people get wrong all the time about gender in languages.

There are two types of gender in language:
- grammatical gender.  This basically means that the nouns in a language can be split into equivalence classes. In this sense, the nouns you list above are gendered.  mann is masculine, as are wermann and wifmannwif, on the other hand, is neuter.  We have two terms for a woman here, and yet neither is grammatically feminine.
- so-called "biological" gender.  Certain words in a language might be used primarily with one "biological" gender.  Such as the examples in the article.  Linguists aren't overly interested in this type of gender (and the presence of this type of gender in a language is not sufficient to call a language gendered) unless it causes some interesting morphological effects.
 
2020-08-05 6:11:03 AM  
5 votes:
media-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 7:00:45 AM  
3 votes:
But, the dude abides.
 
2020-08-05 5:46:18 AM  
3 votes:
Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".
 
2020-08-05 1:10:06 PM  
2 votes:

raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*


Me too, 'guys' is just a handy term for any group. I've never had any issues with anyone getting offended by my use of the word guys. I also call people of any sex or orientation 'dude'. Honestly, guys and dude have become pretty much generic and non-gendered in my neck of the woods, everybody uses them for everybody else.

I do call people by their preferred pronoun if they let me know what it is but I've never had anyone say that guys or dude is offensive to them because they use the words too.
 
2020-08-05 12:17:32 PM  
2 votes:
I can see not using "Hey Guys" when there are some women in the group you are talking to.

However, this made me want to stab somebody:

GLSEN's guide suggested that when you have not been introduced to people and don't know their pronouns or gender identity, use descriptive language such as, "Can you give this paper to the person across the room with the white T-shirt and short brown hair?"

I'm not going to stop using "him" or "her" or "woman" or "man" for people who are pretty obviously one gender or the other.  Fark off.
 
2020-08-05 11:01:14 AM  
2 votes:
external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 10:52:17 AM  
2 votes:
I address mixed groups, "Dudes and Dudettes."

/totally not a dork
//my mom says I'm cool.
 
2020-08-05 8:50:21 AM  
2 votes:

HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".


I'm not sure why someone funnied this because it is essentially correct.

The Old English word mann was grammatically masculine, but referred to any human, male or female.  To refer specifically to a male human, in Old English, you needed to say wer or wermann (both masculine nouns).  To refer specifically to a female human, you needed to say wif (a neuter noun) or wifmann (a masculine noun).

Over time, mann became associated with male humans exclusively (and its spelling changed to just man) and, along with all nouns in the English language, lost any trace of grammatical gender.
 
2020-08-05 8:26:02 AM  
2 votes:

vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.


Dude is inherently a gendered term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude
Dude is American English slang for an individual, typically male.[1] From the 1870s to the 1960s, dude primarily meant a person who dressed in an extremely fashionable manner (a dandy) or a conspicuous citified person who was visiting a rural location, a "city slicker". In the 1960s, dude evolved to mean any male person, a meaning that slipped into mainstream American slang in the 1970s. Current slang retains at least some use of all three of these common meanings.

Maybe you should go with "Dudx".
 
2020-08-05 7:54:09 AM  
2 votes:

vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.


I had a youth group leader who used "People" as their gender neutral term.

Once we were doing a toy drive and had to clean them all so we set up a big line of tables in the church multipurpose room and got to work. Everything was going well until a handgun showed up. "People! We are going outside, NOW!" really sticks into my head.
 
2020-08-05 7:35:03 AM  
2 votes:
I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.
 
2020-08-05 7:29:48 AM  
2 votes:
Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.
 
2020-08-05 7:06:18 PM  
1 vote:
Good Burger--We're All Dudes
Youtube FqMODweN8lQ
 
2020-08-05 6:36:39 PM  
1 vote:

Armored Vomit Doll: There are two types of gender in language:


You are technically correct, which of course is the best type of correct. And all the other corrects, too. And as you surmise, I did indeed mean "gendered" in the sense of "referring to one biological gender". We should probably find a different word for grammatical gender.

I remember being surprised that my German teacher could not explain why "Mädchen" ("little girl") was grammatically neuter; he speculated that perhaps Germans did not think of little girls as being female until they were sexually mature. He had issues. Later I learned that it was because, of course, diminutives in German are always neuter.

And of course, despite common confusion, grammatical gender belongs to words, not objects. I remember when living in France seeing a bumper sticker that said "Ma autre voiture est un diesel". How could the same car be both feminine and masculine? The answer is that grammatical gender is not biological gender, and "diesel" is short for "moteur Diesel", and moteur is masculine.

We should probably find a different word for grammatical gender.
 
2020-08-05 2:56:16 PM  
1 vote:

Armored Vomit Doll: It is explicitly true that Swedish (and related languages) don't have three genders.  Don't affirm the consequent.  It makes you look uneducated.


Listen to me very closely, I understand Swedish because I speak the language most closely related to it.  I use hunkjønn when I speak that language.  Languages related to Swedish have 3 genders, I speak one of them.  I am not certain how many different ways I can say that or how much more clear I can make it.

You are arguing about a language to a person that speaks said language when you do not.  This is the peak of you were wrong on the internet and rather than saying, "my bad" like a normal human being you are digging in to Trumpian levels.
 
2020-08-05 2:30:14 PM  
1 vote:

Armored Vomit Doll: What makes you think that the languages I had in mind were Norwegian and Icelandic?  I didn't say all related languages after all.


Because that is what you said.  It is ok to admit fault, lightning bolts don't fly out of the sky and strike you down. "Swedish (and related languages)" means related languages which includes Norwegian (the language I speak that is so closely related to Swedish as to be mutually intelligible).  Only 1 related language to Swedish, Danish, doesn't have hunkjønn while the other nearest languages do (Norwegian, Icelandic, and German).  So what you said wasn't true.

But your statement is equally false if we want to nitpick. "Scandinavian languages have masculine (hankjøn), feminine (hunkjønn), and neuter (intetkjønn) just like German"Obviously this is untrue, since Swedish and Danish are Scandinavian languages, and, as you admit, they have only two genders.

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute to this discussion at all?


Your nitpicking is about as good as your knowledge of languages related to Swedish.  I'm not wrong, that is how sets work.  Scandinavian languages have hunkjønn, even if Swedish does not, because "Scandinavian languages" is a grouping which contains a feminine language gender.  The logical converse, what you said, is still false.  It is untrue is that North Germanic languages,Swedish (and related languages), don't have 3 language genders.

No worries about me continuing to add to the discussion, I will issue further corrections in the future if needed.
 
2020-08-05 1:10:15 PM  
1 vote:

Petite Mel: [external-content.duckduckgo.com image 300x407]



That is the best laugh I've had all week, seriously.

Thank you for posting it.
 
2020-08-05 12:35:24 PM  
1 vote:
"You guys" has morphed into a gender-neutral term. At my office, even most of the women will use "you guys" when talking to any group of two or more people, whether that group is all men, all women, or a mixture of genders.
 
2020-08-05 12:23:36 PM  
1 vote:
Use "People!" when you want to sound like a hip, '70s female teacher.
Use "Listen up!" when you want to sound like a '70s boys PE teacher.
 
2020-08-05 10:53:30 AM  
1 vote:
64.media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 10:42:44 AM  
1 vote:
He knows about your party.  He is calling you "dude!"

Comfort Eagle
Youtube Q2elSNrRxus
 
2020-08-05 9:36:37 AM  
1 vote:

Bad bit in the bit bucket: Armored Vomit Doll: HugeMistake:

A semi-related question: is this in any way related to the gendered nouns and adjectives in Spanish (or any of the Romance languages)?



I always hit "Add Comment" too soon.

English, as an Indo-European language, used to have gender, the same as the Romance languages and most modern Germanic languages.  Over time gender distinctions were lost in English.

French and Spanish, over time, lost the neuter gender of Latin, ending up with just masculine and feminine.  Romanian had something odd happen, where in some (completely predictable) cases neuter nouns act like masculine nouns, and in all other (also completely predictable) cases they act like feminine nouns.  So Romanian has a "neuter" gender because its old neuter gender didn't neatly collapse into either of the other two genders.  In French, the neuter gender was absorbed by the feminine gender because sound changes in the language made it impossible to tell the genders apart anymore.

Swedish (and related languages), on the other hand, saw the masculine and feminine genders merge into a "common" gender, distinct from a neuter gender.

As a general rule, Indo-European and Semitic languages are gendered (or were in the past).  Many Indigenous languages of North America (including Cree, which I'm somewhat proficient in) also have gender, though they name their noun classes animate and inanimate, rather than masculine and feminine.  Just like above, animate gender doesn't mean animate in reality (butter is animate in Cree, for one thing) and inanimate gender doesn't mean inanimate in reality.
 
2020-08-05 8:28:15 AM  
1 vote:

raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*


A mixed group here is usually 'lads'. My sisters also use this to refer to groups of all female friends a lot. Nobody has ever brought it up as an issue, so it doesn't seem like a big deal.
 
2020-08-05 8:12:07 AM  
1 vote:
Speaking as an arrogant jock in an 80s movie, I always refer to guys as "ladies."  "Sup, ladies!  You ladies ready to lose today?"

And then I cheat, because that's what you do when you're an arrogant jock in an 80s movie.
 
2020-08-05 7:59:17 AM  
1 vote:

vudukungfu: Tr0mBoNe: vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.

I had a youth group leader who used "People" as their gender neutral term.

Once we were doing a toy drive and had to clean them all so we set up a big line of tables in the church multipurpose room and got to work. Everything was going well until a handgun showed up. "People! We are going outside, NOW!" really sticks into my head.

Was the gun ok?


It took a bath in soapy water then one of the parents "took care of it". I expect they are still taking care of it, it was a small hick town.
 
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