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(Huffington Post)   Yeah, good luck with that, guys, in a day and age when even chicks call each other "Dude"   (huffpost.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Gender, Transgender, gender identity, Gender role, GLSEN's guide, Gender identity, language creeps, gender-neutral language  
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787 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 05 Aug 2020 at 5:48 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-08-05 2:59:19 AM  
Or we could just keep using it to apply to mixed-gender groups until the generations that considered it a "masculine word" die off.

Sorry if I come across as crotchety, I've actually been feeling rather gay all day.
 
2020-08-05 3:11:48 AM  
i.imgflip.comView Full Size

We cool?
 
2020-08-05 3:32:19 AM  
Chicks don't like being called broads!!!
 
2020-08-05 5:27:13 AM  
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 5:42:51 AM  
Whatever, dude
 
2020-08-05 5:46:18 AM  
Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".
 
2020-08-05 5:55:14 AM  
My daughter calls me "Dude"!
 
2020-08-05 6:11:03 AM  
media-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 6:18:31 AM  

buckeyebrain: Chicks don't like being called broads!!!


Dames don't like being called chicks.
 
2020-08-05 6:20:06 AM  
media.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 6:48:53 AM  

HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".


Mostly correct.  I love to see people posting stuff like this on Fark.  I just want to commandeer this post to mention something that people get wrong all the time about gender in languages.

There are two types of gender in language:
- grammatical gender.  This basically means that the nouns in a language can be split into equivalence classes. In this sense, the nouns you list above are gendered.  mann is masculine, as are wermann and wifmannwif, on the other hand, is neuter.  We have two terms for a woman here, and yet neither is grammatically feminine.
- so-called "biological" gender.  Certain words in a language might be used primarily with one "biological" gender.  Such as the examples in the article.  Linguists aren't overly interested in this type of gender (and the presence of this type of gender in a language is not sufficient to call a language gendered) unless it causes some interesting morphological effects.
 
2020-08-05 7:00:45 AM  
But, the dude abides.
 
2020-08-05 7:29:48 AM  
Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.
 
2020-08-05 7:35:03 AM  
I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.
 
2020-08-05 7:36:38 AM  
My older daughter has never stopped calling everyone "dude" in a conversational fashion since she saw the Big Lebowski, and that was some time ago.  I think she doesn't care that it makes me twitchy.
 
2020-08-05 7:37:56 AM  

Ker_Thwap: TLDR version. Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term. It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.


I always addressed groups of my employees as "ladies", regardless of gender.  It gets their attention.  They settle down.  They know worse could come.
 
2020-08-05 7:47:44 AM  

Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.


Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*
 
2020-08-05 7:54:09 AM  

vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.


I had a youth group leader who used "People" as their gender neutral term.

Once we were doing a toy drive and had to clean them all so we set up a big line of tables in the church multipurpose room and got to work. Everything was going well until a handgun showed up. "People! We are going outside, NOW!" really sticks into my head.
 
2020-08-05 7:57:05 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.

I had a youth group leader who used "People" as their gender neutral term.

Once we were doing a toy drive and had to clean them all so we set up a big line of tables in the church multipurpose room and got to work. Everything was going well until a handgun showed up. "People! We are going outside, NOW!" really sticks into my head.


Was the gun ok?
 
2020-08-05 7:59:17 AM  

vudukungfu: Tr0mBoNe: vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.

I had a youth group leader who used "People" as their gender neutral term.

Once we were doing a toy drive and had to clean them all so we set up a big line of tables in the church multipurpose room and got to work. Everything was going well until a handgun showed up. "People! We are going outside, NOW!" really sticks into my head.

Was the gun ok?


It took a bath in soapy water then one of the parents "took care of it". I expect they are still taking care of it, it was a small hick town.
 
2020-08-05 8:03:27 AM  
Hey, my dawgs!
 
2020-08-05 8:12:07 AM  
Speaking as an arrogant jock in an 80s movie, I always refer to guys as "ladies."  "Sup, ladies!  You ladies ready to lose today?"

And then I cheat, because that's what you do when you're an arrogant jock in an 80s movie.
 
2020-08-05 8:26:02 AM  

vudukungfu: Used to call my campers dudes.
Explained to those young ladies in the early 70s it was a gender neutral term.
They got it.
It allowed them to actualize themselves as persons while being mentored by a male with out the assignment of gender roles, which would have been inappropriate. I was a teen, and they were not.
Thus, I became a source of information and not a member of a set of people they had previous encounters with.
It worked.


Dude is inherently a gendered term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude
Dude is American English slang for an individual, typically male.[1] From the 1870s to the 1960s, dude primarily meant a person who dressed in an extremely fashionable manner (a dandy) or a conspicuous citified person who was visiting a rural location, a "city slicker". In the 1960s, dude evolved to mean any male person, a meaning that slipped into mainstream American slang in the 1970s. Current slang retains at least some use of all three of these common meanings.

Maybe you should go with "Dudx".
 
2020-08-05 8:28:15 AM  

raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*


A mixed group here is usually 'lads'. My sisters also use this to refer to groups of all female friends a lot. Nobody has ever brought it up as an issue, so it doesn't seem like a big deal.
 
2020-08-05 8:33:32 AM  

raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*


It's a thought exercise.  Think about why you don't address them as "ladies?"

I've been addressed as, and have used the word "guys" my whole life as well, and it doesn't bother me either.  That said, I raised two daughters as a single dad, and started to pay attention to the myriad ways in which language diminishes women.  There are active attempts to do so, and passive attempts as well.

Do what you want, just be aware of why some people might find it annoying.
 
2020-08-05 8:40:13 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 8:42:24 AM  

Ker_Thwap: raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*

It's a thought exercise.  Think about why you don't address them as "ladies?"

I've been addressed as, and have used the word "guys" my whole life as well, and it doesn't bother me either.  That said, I raised two daughters as a single dad, and started to pay attention to the myriad ways in which language diminishes women.  There are active attempts to do so, and passive attempts as well.

Do what you want, just be aware of why some people might find it annoying.


'You guys' is colloquial language, right?  We shorten this to 'yinz' where i come from.  Lol
 
2020-08-05 8:49:47 AM  
I'm female and I address both genders as dudes and guys. I'm also known to refer to my friends as girls and boys even though we are all middle-aged. I might say to Mr Spawn, are your boys coming over to play Battletech?  (Huge table, masks on, etc.)
 
2020-08-05 8:50:21 AM  

HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".


I'm not sure why someone funnied this because it is essentially correct.

The Old English word mann was grammatically masculine, but referred to any human, male or female.  To refer specifically to a male human, in Old English, you needed to say wer or wermann (both masculine nouns).  To refer specifically to a female human, you needed to say wif (a neuter noun) or wifmann (a masculine noun).

Over time, mann became associated with male humans exclusively (and its spelling changed to just man) and, along with all nouns in the English language, lost any trace of grammatical gender.
 
2020-08-05 8:54:45 AM  

raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: raerae1980: Ker_Thwap: I typed out way too much information about flawed languages and stupid customs, then decided to just go with the TLDR version.  You're welcome.

TLDR version.  Try some empathy, think how you'd feel if your female boss called mixed groups ladies, and insisted that it was the proper gender neutral term.  It costs you nothing to address a mixed group in a way that's respectful to everyone.

Im female, and i use "guys" to address mixed groups of folks all the time.  *shrugs*

It's a thought exercise.  Think about why you don't address them as "ladies?"

I've been addressed as, and have used the word "guys" my whole life as well, and it doesn't bother me either.  That said, I raised two daughters as a single dad, and started to pay attention to the myriad ways in which language diminishes women.  There are active attempts to do so, and passive attempts as well.

Do what you want, just be aware of why some people might find it annoying.

'You guys' is colloquial language, right?  We shorten this to 'yinz' where i come from.  Lol


Sure, and colloquial terms go in and out of fashion, language continues to evolve.  Had you called my grandmother a guy, she would have smacked you, because it's not ladylike.  I grew up initially with guys were men, and it was rude to call a mixed group guys.  Then for most of my life it became a common/non insulting term that I was fine with.  Now, I wonder if we should re-examine it, because it's kind of passively insulting.

/She had her own ideas about what was and wasn't ladylike, so smacking was on the table for her.
//She was also mean and racist, so I'm not quoting her as any kind of authority here.
 
2020-08-05 9:13:17 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".

Mostly correct.  I love to see people posting stuff like this on Fark.  I just want to commandeer this post to mention something that people get wrong all the time about gender in languages.

There are two types of gender in language:
- grammatical gender.  This basically means that the nouns in a language can be split into equivalence classes. In this sense, the nouns you list above are gendered.  mann is masculine, as are wermann and wifmann.  wif, on the other hand, is neuter.  We have two terms for a woman here, and yet neither is grammatically feminine.
- so-called "biological" gender.  Certain words in a language might be used primarily with one "biological" gender.  Such as the examples in the article.  Linguists aren't overly interested in this type of gender (and the presence of this type of gender in a language is not sufficient to call a language gendered) unless it causes some interesting morphological effects.


A semi-related question: is this in any way related to the gendered nouns and adjectives in Spanish (or any of the Romance languages)?
 
2020-08-05 9:25:30 AM  

Bad bit in the bit bucket: Armored Vomit Doll: HugeMistake: Fun fact: once upon a time, "man" was not gendered. If you needed to specify female there was "wifman", from which we eventually get both "woman" (you can still hear the deep roots in the unusual pronunciation of "women") and "wife"; and if you needed to specify male there was "werman" or "wyrman" - the same word that's survived in modern English in "werewolf".

Mostly correct.  I love to see people posting stuff like this on Fark.  I just want to commandeer this post to mention something that people get wrong all the time about gender in languages.

There are two types of gender in language:
- grammatical gender.  This basically means that the nouns in a language can be split into equivalence classes. In this sense, the nouns you list above are gendered.  mann is masculine, as are wermann and wifmann.  wif, on the other hand, is neuter.  We have two terms for a woman here, and yet neither is grammatically feminine.
- so-called "biological" gender.  Certain words in a language might be used primarily with one "biological" gender.  Such as the examples in the article.  Linguists aren't overly interested in this type of gender (and the presence of this type of gender in a language is not sufficient to call a language gendered) unless it causes some interesting morphological effects.

A semi-related question: is this in any way related to the gendered nouns and adjectives in Spanish (or any of the Romance languages)?


Those fall under the category of grammatical gender, yes.  They are not examples of "biological" gender, though, as some very feminine things are (grammatically) masculine, and some very masculine things are (grammatically) feminine.

To be super-technical, only nouns can have grammatical gender.  Other word classes (adjectives, verbs, pronouns, etc.) might change due to a noun's gender, but they don't have gender themselves.
 
2020-08-05 9:36:37 AM  

Bad bit in the bit bucket: Armored Vomit Doll: HugeMistake:

A semi-related question: is this in any way related to the gendered nouns and adjectives in Spanish (or any of the Romance languages)?



I always hit "Add Comment" too soon.

English, as an Indo-European language, used to have gender, the same as the Romance languages and most modern Germanic languages.  Over time gender distinctions were lost in English.

French and Spanish, over time, lost the neuter gender of Latin, ending up with just masculine and feminine.  Romanian had something odd happen, where in some (completely predictable) cases neuter nouns act like masculine nouns, and in all other (also completely predictable) cases they act like feminine nouns.  So Romanian has a "neuter" gender because its old neuter gender didn't neatly collapse into either of the other two genders.  In French, the neuter gender was absorbed by the feminine gender because sound changes in the language made it impossible to tell the genders apart anymore.

Swedish (and related languages), on the other hand, saw the masculine and feminine genders merge into a "common" gender, distinct from a neuter gender.

As a general rule, Indo-European and Semitic languages are gendered (or were in the past).  Many Indigenous languages of North America (including Cree, which I'm somewhat proficient in) also have gender, though they name their noun classes animate and inanimate, rather than masculine and feminine.  Just like above, animate gender doesn't mean animate in reality (butter is animate in Cree, for one thing) and inanimate gender doesn't mean inanimate in reality.
 
2020-08-05 9:55:21 AM  
'Sup bros?
 
2020-08-05 10:39:34 AM  
Greetings meat-bags.
 
2020-08-05 10:42:44 AM  
He knows about your party.  He is calling you "dude!"

Comfort Eagle
Youtube Q2elSNrRxus
 
2020-08-05 10:52:17 AM  
I address mixed groups, "Dudes and Dudettes."

/totally not a dork
//my mom says I'm cool.
 
2020-08-05 10:53:30 AM  
64.media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 10:57:04 AM  
"Amy Jeffers, an organizational development specialist in diversity, equity and inclusion..."

Shoot me.
 
2020-08-05 11:01:14 AM  
external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 11:13:40 AM  
My grandma called everybody "fellas". I'd be hanging out with my girlfriends and grandma would say "Hey fellas, what's going in?"
 
2020-08-05 11:46:55 AM  
I tend to be more general.  When I enter a room, I say, "Greetings, Earth Humans."
 
2020-08-05 11:48:22 AM  
Oh, ffs.
 
2020-08-05 12:17:32 PM  
I can see not using "Hey Guys" when there are some women in the group you are talking to.

However, this made me want to stab somebody:

GLSEN's guide suggested that when you have not been introduced to people and don't know their pronouns or gender identity, use descriptive language such as, "Can you give this paper to the person across the room with the white T-shirt and short brown hair?"

I'm not going to stop using "him" or "her" or "woman" or "man" for people who are pretty obviously one gender or the other.  Fark off.
 
2020-08-05 12:23:36 PM  
Use "People!" when you want to sound like a hip, '70s female teacher.
Use "Listen up!" when you want to sound like a '70s boys PE teacher.
 
2020-08-05 12:35:24 PM  
"You guys" has morphed into a gender-neutral term. At my office, even most of the women will use "you guys" when talking to any group of two or more people, whether that group is all men, all women, or a mixture of genders.
 
2020-08-05 12:41:37 PM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Swedish (and related languages), on the other hand, saw the masculine and feminine genders merge into a "common" gender, distinct from a neuter gender.


This is completely false.  Scandinavian languages have masculine (hankjøn), feminine (hunkjønn), and neuter (intetkjønn) just like German.
 
2020-08-05 12:52:12 PM  

Beta Tested: Armored Vomit Doll: Swedish (and related languages), on the other hand, saw the masculine and feminine genders merge into a "common" gender, distinct from a neuter gender.

This is completely false.  Scandinavian languages have masculine (hankjøn), feminine (hunkjønn), and neuter (intetkjønn) just like German.


Nope. Standard Swedish does not have three genders.  It has only ett-nouns (neuter) and en-nouns (common).  Some dialects and idioms might still use older masculine and feminine distinctions, but those are non-standard.

You probably just don't understand what is meant by grammatical gender (despite my describing it above).
 
2020-08-05 1:00:14 PM  

Geotpf: I can see not using "Hey Guys" when there are some women in the group you are talking to.

However, this made me want to stab somebody:

GLSEN's guide suggested that when you have not been introduced to people and don't know their pronouns or gender identity, use descriptive language such as, "Can you give this paper to the person across the room with the white T-shirt and short brown hair?"

I'm not going to stop using "him" or "her" or "woman" or "man" for people who are pretty obviously one gender or the other.  Fark off.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-05 1:01:22 PM  

Beta Tested: Armored Vomit Doll: Swedish (and related languages), on the other hand, saw the masculine and feminine genders merge into a "common" gender, distinct from a neuter gender.

This is completely false.  Scandinavian languages have masculine (hankjøn), feminine (hunkjønn), and neuter (intetkjønn) just like German.


For example, adjectives in Swedish can sometimes decline as "masculine" rather than "common" when referring to male humans.  But that is biological gender, not grammatical gender.  As I explained above, changing the form of something due to its biological properties is not grammatical gender, and adjectives themselves cannot carry gender, only nouns can.

Pronouns in Swedish also can change between masculine and feminine.  But, again, that is biological gender and not grammatical gender as those are pronouns (which cannot carry gender) and not nouns.
 
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