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(Vox)   In the US, police are trained to be warriors. But, the expectation is for them to be social workers   (vox.com) divider line
    More: Murica, Police, police forces, police officers, Constable, popular image of police, police recruitment videos, overwhelming majority of officers, drug use  
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1601 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 01 Aug 2020 at 6:35 AM (2 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2 days ago  
Much like the US Army and Marines from Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan... trainer to kill and break shiat... expected to win the peace and police the occupied lands with no training for that.
 
2 days ago  
Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.
 
2 days ago  
Police aren't trained be behave like warriors, they are trained to behave like cowards.  Protect themselves first and foremost.
 
2 days ago  
Well of course they are subby. How efng social do they have to be to protect our overlords' property or wealth?
 
2 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2 days ago  

Sgygus: Police aren't trained be behave like warriors, they are trained to behave like cowards.  Protect themselves first and foremost.


They behave like a gang with benefits and a pension program.
 
2 days ago  
Golly, the solution is beyond me.  How perplexing.
 
2 days ago  
"old news is so exciting."
 
2 days ago  
They're trained to be military, and then they're given military weapons, all the way up to armored vehicles.  And then we wonder why they look at citizens as enemy combatants.
 
2 days ago  
The problem is they haven't taken the training to its ultimate conclusion.

static01.nyt.comView Full Size
 
2 days ago  
I keep having to explain to my parents that the problem with our police is that they're quite literally trained to shoot first and ask questions later, and they cannot wrap their heads around that.
 
2 days ago  
If we are going to train the police as combatants it should be reasonably expected that they can be taken as POWs by the general population.
 
2 days ago  
One of the most common reasons I have seen bad cops caught and fired is falsification of training, or failure to even bother showing up to training.  It's never the firearms or driving classes they skip.  Everyone shows to those, because that is the fun stuff.  What they skip is the legal stuff, like the mandatory training on new laws, or the mandatory refresher training on dealing with domestic violence investigations, or even the "Don't be a Racist" or "How to Avoid Sexually Assaulting People" training.

This training is not even all that hard.  Most of it, like the sexual harassment and diversity training is the same BS corporate stuff that many of you do at work that is designed to be easy to pass, so that it can be shown that you had the right numbers of training, rather than in preventing anyone from being racist or sexist.  They skip out of it anyways, because to bad cops, anything that involves a bit of patience and thinking is just way too hard.

Which actually proposes a solution.  It's not a silver bullet.  There are no silver bullets that will fix all the problems with policing, but there are a bunch of little solutions that together can go a long way towards fixing the problems.  More training.  Not training the way we do it now, but actual hard, thought engaging training that involves complex problem solving skills.  Something that actually has a failure rate.  I am not cruel and suggesting we force everyone out who fails, but if you don't have a system where everyone fails at least once in their career, and has to repeat the training, then your training is not tough enough.  They already do this with firearms and driving, pushing officers skills until a certain number of them fail each year and have to retake the training.  Why not do it with the social aspects of the job?  Basically, every time a cop trains, he should come away a little smarter at his job, and if he is unwilling or unable to do so, he should be looking for another profession.

Most of the bad cops are just grown up versions of dumb jocks who always skipped class in High School, because the coach would cover for them, and claim they were doing something for him.  Which is another issue where bad habits for bad professionals often start in High School Athletic Programs, but that is a different point.  

Again, I am not saying all cops are bad.  Most are good at their job, and would excel at their job in such an environment.  In fact, they need this more than anyone else.  Bad cops are not just bad for society or black people, they are also bad for the guys who are trying to be good cops, and I am not just talking about the ethical compromises.  Bad cops get good cops killed, When you constantly escalate calls so that they turn violent, you are not just putting the lives of civilians in danger, you are also putting the lives of your fellow officers in danger.  Something all cops need to be reminded of, especially when it comes time to vote for their union rep.
 
2 days ago  
I don't think it is appreciated how many people go from military to law enforcement and take that mentality with them.
 
2 days ago  

revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.


No social worker wants to be in a car with a cop that long.
 
2 days ago  

winedrinkingman: One of the most common reasons I have seen bad cops caught and fired is falsification of training, or failure to even bother showing up to training.  It's never the firearms or driving classes they skip.  Everyone shows to those, because that is the fun stuff.  What they skip is the legal stuff, like the mandatory training on new laws, or the mandatory refresher training on dealing with domestic violence investigations, or even the "Don't be a Racist" or "How to Avoid Sexually Assaulting People" training.

This training is not even all that hard.  Most of it, like the sexual harassment and diversity training is the same BS corporate stuff that many of you do at work that is designed to be easy to pass, so that it can be shown that you had the right numbers of training, rather than in preventing anyone from being racist or sexist.  They skip out of it anyways, because to bad cops, anything that involves a bit of patience and thinking is just way too hard.

Which actually proposes a solution.  It's not a silver bullet.  There are no silver bullets that will fix all the problems with policing, but there are a bunch of little solutions that together can go a long way towards fixing the problems.  More training.  Not training the way we do it now, but actual hard, thought engaging training that involves complex problem solving skills.  Something that actually has a failure rate.  I am not cruel and suggesting we force everyone out who fails, but if you don't have a system where everyone fails at least once in their career, and has to repeat the training, then your training is not tough enough.  They already do this with firearms and driving, pushing officers skills until a certain number of them fail each year and have to retake the training.  Why not do it with the social aspects of the job?  Basically, every time a cop trains, he should come away a little smarter at his job, and if he is unwilling or unable to do so, he should be looking for another profession.

Most of the bad cops are just grown up versions of dumb jocks who always skipped class in High School, because the coach would cover for them, and claim they were doing something for him.  Which is another issue where bad habits for bad professionals often start in High School Athletic Programs, but that is a different point.  

Again, I am not saying all cops are bad.  Most are good at their job, and would excel at their job in such an environment.  In fact, they need this more than anyone else.  Bad cops are not just bad for society or black people, they are also bad for the guys who are trying to be good cops, and I am not just talking about the ethical compromises.  Bad cops get good cops killed, When you constantly escalate calls so that they turn violent, you are not just putting the lives of civilians in danger, you are also putting the lives of your fellow officers in danger.  Something all cops need to be reminded of, especially when it comes time to vote for their union rep.


I'm just quoting this because it's really farking sensible. If my past job at *cellphone company* could dictate that I couldn't take to the sales floor until I passed the necessary training on the new iPhone, we can keep cops off the streets until they're caught up to the new laws on the books.
 
2 days ago  
In January we will begin the process to Defund/ abolish the police.  Once all the departments are all gone, we will replace them with caseworkers and a first rate social welfare state.  We will have the White House, the House and the Senate.  We learned from our mistskes in 2009, and 2010.  When you win, make it count.  Change the world and forget about playing nice with the republicans.  They only want to distract us and run out the clock.
 
2 days ago  
Why can't we train our police to PROVIDE the social services, and AFTER beat the public?  Social warriors!
 
2 days ago  
Yesterday

Fark user imageView Full Size


The day before

Fark user imageView Full Size

North Hollywood  1997

Fark user imageView Full Size


.  What do you think today will bring?
 
2 days ago  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Yesterday

[Fark user image image 259x194]

The day before

[Fark user image image 281x179]
North Hollywood  1997

[Fark user image image 282x178]

.  What do you think today will bring?


Again I ask, was it your intention to come here and show everyone your ass?
 
2 days ago  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Yesterday

[Fark user image 259x194]

The day before

[Fark user image 281x179]
North Hollywood  1997

[Fark user image 282x178]

.  What do you think today will bring?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2 days ago  
Warrior training takes more than a matter of weeks and usually includes some sort of ethos, so no... I wouldn't say they're trained to be warriors.

Thugs, maybe. Goons.
 
2 days ago  

revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.


You think they'd want to do that?
Sit in a patrol car all night just to be there when they need to pull some naked crazy guy from a tree?

I think people have a really high expectation of what social workers will do when deployed to the front.
 
2 days ago  
groovyhistory.comView Full Size
 
2 days ago  
Warriors, subby?  LOL

Police are trained to be prison guards for the many open air prisons that are our inner cities.   They are expected to act like guardians of free citizens, law and order, but instead are murderous gun-wielding militants who like to bully people.

The police aren't confused teenagers.  Cities basically attract and hire bullies to be cops.  These cops know exactly what they are doing and they are loving the feeling of power when they drop an unarmed black kid and keep the shots in a nice spread pattern.
 
2 days ago  
Warriors fight enemies. Social workers help folks in need. Politicians decide how they want the police to work and for whom.
 
2 days ago  
I like printing Vox articles when low on TP, I find their opinions are very absorbent.
 
2 days ago  

way south: revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.

You think they'd want to do that?
Sit in a patrol car all night just to be there when they need to pull some naked crazy guy from a tree?

I think people have a really high expectation of what social workers will do when deployed to the front.


nah. Crazy naked guy is EMS's problem and we have meds for that...

You'd be surprised how many times we take people to the ER for social worker contact
 
2 days ago  
Two examples from a bygone age:

In this scene Dirty Harry is practicing at gun range. Notice how the target zone on people is the intestines, far away rom the organs and no where near the head or heart.
Fark user imageView Full Size


In this scene from Forte Apache: The Bronx, Paul Newman uses patience and a touch of guile rather than force.

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2 days ago  
This article is typical anti-cop propaganda.  It reads as very sensible if you don't actually know anything about policing, but if you actually have experience with the criminal justice system (not as a criminal caught up by the system), then some of this article is just flat out idiotic.

FTFA: "The data overwhelmingly finds that police officers in aggregate spend the vast majority of their time responding to non-criminal calls, traffic-related incidents, and low-level crimes - and only a tiny fraction on violent crimes....The vast majority of calls have nothing to do with crime. Instead, they involve disorderly crowds, domestic disputes, traffic accidents, minor disturbances, and a whole array of "unfounded" calls where the officer arrived on the scene only to discover nothing was happening. "

This argument is particularly stupid, and fundamentally misunderstands why police violence happens.  Police violence happens because people do not want to be arrested.  The type of call is largely irrelevant.  A good proxy for what kind of calls necessitate force is assaults on officers by incident type. The most dangerous calls for police are disturbance calls (family quarrels, bar fights, etc.), where 31% of assaults occur.  The very kind of calls that this writer is dismissing as "having nothing to do with crime."

The mistake Vox is making here is thinking that police violence is punishment for violent crimes.  It's not.  It's a means of forcing compliance with the law.  Violent, dangerous people do not only commit violent crimes.  Sometime they just decided to take a piss on the street (and not like in an alley by a dumpster like a considerate person).  A cop sees them and attempts to cite them for public urination.  They decide they don't want to be cited. It turns into a fight, and the officer is forced to use force to force the street pisser to accept that yes, he does actually have to accept the citation for public urination.

Martin Orr decided to start 2016 by stealing some junk food from a convenience store.  He casually walked out the door without paying, no threats, no violence.  Officer Quincy Smith -- wearing camera glasses he bought himself -- responded to the call, spotted Orr and approached him, asking him to stop.  Orr didn't want to be questioned about the shoplifting.  He had a warrant out for his arrest.  Most people in his position would have run.  Orr pulled out a pistol and shot Officer Smith 4 times at point blank range with a perfectly calm, even expression on his face. He didn't even let it distract him from his cellphone.

Fark user imageView Full Size


My point is not the violence is ever present and that cops have a super dangerous job blah blah blah.  My point is that violent people go grocery shopping.  They do ordinary stuff.  They commit petty crimes.  They commit traffic violations.  People don't get beaten up by the police for petty crimes, they get beaten up by the police because they would rather fight the police than suffer the consequences of their petty crimes.

TL;DR: Police violence is not a punishment for violent crime, it is the result of noncompliance with the law.
 
2 days ago  

Hypnotic Harlequin: This article is typical anti-cop propaganda.  It reads as very sensible if you don't actually know anything about policing, but if you actually have experience with the criminal justice system (not as a criminal caught up by the system), then some of this article is just flat out idiotic.

FTFA: "The data overwhelmingly finds that police officers in aggregate spend the vast majority of their time responding to non-criminal calls, traffic-related incidents, and low-level crimes - and only a tiny fraction on violent crimes....The vast majority of calls have nothing to do with crime. Instead, they involve disorderly crowds, domestic disputes, traffic accidents, minor disturbances, and a whole array of "unfounded" calls where the officer arrived on the scene only to discover nothing was happening. "

This argument is particularly stupid, and fundamentally misunderstands why police violence happens.  Police violence happens because people do not want to be arrested.  The type of call is largely irrelevant.  A good proxy for what kind of calls necessitate force is assaults on officers by incident type. The most dangerous calls for police are disturbance calls (family quarrels, bar fights, etc.), where 31% of assaults occur.  The very kind of calls that this writer is dismissing as "having nothing to do with crime."

The mistake Vox is making here is thinking that police violence is punishment for violent crimes.  It's not.  It's a means of forcing compliance with the law.  Violent, dangerous people do not only commit violent crimes.  Sometime they just decided to take a piss on the street (and not like in an alley by a dumpster like a considerate person).  A cop sees them and attempts to cite them for public urination.  They decide they don't want to be cited. It turns into a fight, and the officer is forced to use force to force the street pisser to accept that yes, he does actually have to accept the citation for public urination.

Martin Orr decided to start 2016 by stealing some junk food from a convenience store.  He casually walked out the door without paying, no threats, no violence.  Officer Quincy Smith -- wearing camera glasses he bought himself -- responded to the call, spotted Orr and approached him, asking him to stop.  Orr didn't want to be questioned about the shoplifting.  He had a warrant out for his arrest.  Most people in his position would have run.  Orr pulled out a pistol and shot Officer Smith 4 times at point blank range with a perfectly calm, even expression on his face. He didn't even let it distract him from his cellphone.

[Fark user image image 768x432]

My point is not the violence is ever present and that cops have a super dangerous job blah blah blah.  My point is that violent people go grocery shopping.  They do ordinary stuff.  They commit petty crimes.  They commit traffic violations.  People don't get beaten up by the police for petty crimes, they get beaten up by the police because they would rather fight the police than suffer the consequences of their petty crimes.

TL;DR: Police violence is not a punishment for violent crime, it is the result of noncompliance with the law.


TLDR; everyone could be a gun toting lunatic, so cops are allowed to treat everyone like dirt.

In 2019, the NYPD lost 6 officers total. 4 were from 9/11 related illness. 2 were shot. Both were friendly fire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_​o​f_New_York_Police_Department_officers_​killed_in_the_line_of_duty

/What flavor shoe polish is your favorite?
 
2 days ago  
There's a lot of police hate in this thread, which is common on Fark. I also despise poor police behavior and want the bad cops punished.

That being said, you would not believe the lies spouted out from the maws of criminals
.
 
2 days ago  

thehobbes: way south: revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.

You think they'd want to do that?
Sit in a patrol car all night just to be there when they need to pull some naked crazy guy from a tree?

I think people have a really high expectation of what social workers will do when deployed to the front.

nah. Crazy naked guy is EMS's problem and we have meds for that...

You'd be surprised how many times we take people to the ER for social worker contact


That just shuffles the restraining problem to EMS/Fire instead of the cops, where such is the policy.  In the end the social worker is not in the field and someone must wrap up the patient and take them to more controlled surroundings.
What was suggested is that the social worker go outside and be the point of contact in the field.

I don't see that happening. Maybe people think the cops need an on scene supervisor telling them how to deal with a potentially violent person, but I don't see a highly paid interventionist being the one that does the grappling.

I see them approaching a crazy/criminal person with a word salad of pleasantries and getting boxed in the jaw, because crazy/criminal types can't always be talked into the back of a patrol car. The job will fall to someone else and we end up with the same problem of suspects sometimes getting killed on arrest.


Manhunt ends with capture of naked man
Youtube iuHGQKEv62U
 
2 days ago  
This article gets a few things right and a few things very wrong.

FTA: "In fact, the overwhelming majority of officers spend only a small fraction of their time responding to violent crime."

The initial classification of a call is not an accurate way to determine if a call is dangerous or not. Cops have encountered violence in even the most routine calls. Hypnotic Harlequin pointed out a cop being shot just trying to talk to a shoplifter. Cops have been killed making traffic stops for minor violations. A friend of mine was murdered trying to make a routine DUI arrest. But when cops try to prepare themselves by training for these unexpected encounters, you get people that think like this:

Sgygus: Police aren't trained be behave like warriors, they are trained to behave like cowards.  Protect themselves first and foremost.


Yes, cops need to protect themselves. But it's not because they're cowards - in fact the opposite is true. It's because cops often encounter violent people at unexpected times and they necessarily have to be prepared to react. The fact that cops routinely respond to these unpredictable situations is the opposite of cowardice. As a result, cops sometimes over-react, and it's surprising the number of unjustified shootings by police isn't higher.

That being said, stop having unrealistic expectations of cops. Stop expecting the police to solve problems that are unsolvable. Here's the most accurate thing in the article:

"The reason I think we need to rethink policing is because I care about police," says Rizer, the former officer and R Street researcher. "I want to make policing prestigious again - not the prestige of power, but the prestige of respect. But in order to do that, we need to stop underfunding everything else and leaving the police holding a bag of shiat."

What he said.
 
2 days ago  

Hypnotic Harlequin: This article is typical anti-cop propaganda.  It reads as very sensible if you don't actually know anything about policing, but if you actually have experience with the criminal justice system (not as a criminal caught up by the system), then some of this article is just flat out idiotic.


Yes, yes... nobody understands. The experts who study the police using data that drives the claims TFA is making (instead of anecdotes that support a convenient conclusion) don't understand. The former cops and criminologists who know more about policing than the average cop on the street (and who have forgotten more about policing than your clownshoes ass will ever know) don't understand. The people who live their entire lives in the kinds of neighborhoods you're too chickenshiat to walk into after dark because Black people live there) don't understand.  Anyone who criticizes police with cogent, fact-based arguments doesn't understand, and anyone who posts bootlicking pro-cop drivel a 5-year-old can see is specious totally gets it.

Nobody can possibly understand policing except the police and police union spokespeople who have continuously fought tooth-and-nail for the last 50 years to ensure that the public can't see or know any of the details under discussion so they can't hold police accountable for their epic failure as an institution to serve the public.

You're full of shiat, and the existence of your account would be an embarrassment to any serious website that pretends it has a moderating team.
 
2 days ago  

Elliot8654: TLDR; everyone could be a gun toting lunatic, so cops are allowed to treat everyone like dirt.


First, cops do not treat everyone like dirt.  In the most recent (2018) survey of on police-public contacts, only 3.3% of police-initiated contacts resulted in the use of force.  96.7% involved no use of force or threats of force.  82% of people who experienced police initiated contacts believed the stop was appropriate, and that police behaved properly in 82% of street stops and 96% of traffic stops.

Police treat most people just fine.  There are racial disparities: blacks are 2.4 times more likely to experience use of force than whites -- 5.2% for blacks vs 2.4% for whites. But still, 94.8% of black Americans who were stopped by the police experienced no use of force.  When you factor in that only 11% of black Americans (and 11% of white Americans) even experience police initiated contact, we're basically saying about 0.5% of black Americans experience any use of force, including threats of force and brandishing.  If you actually break down the numbers, the use of force as in the actual physical laying on of hands is very rare -- occurring in only 1% of police initiated contacts.

Second, no, that is not the point I am making.  The point I am making is anybody could be a gun toting lunatic, not that everybody could be a gun toting lunatic.  The vast majority of people -- even violent criminals! -- respond to the police with compliance.  There's just a small percentage of people, about 2% (mostly men, ages 16-35) who assault police, and who account for more than 60% of instances of police use of force.

These people do not just violently resist being arrested for violent crimes.  They do not just commit violent crimes.  That's my point.  They violently resist because they hate authority figures, rules, and being held responsible for their decisions, thus police can encounter them anywhere.

The Vox writer thinks that because only the red areas on this graph are "violent crimes," these are the only calls where police experience violent resistance:

Fark user imageView Full Size

But in reality, the green area is are the kind of calls where 31% of assaults on police officers occur.  That's why this article is dumb.  The author just doesn't understand how policing works.
 
2 days ago  

CruiserTwelve: he initial classification of a call is not an accurate way to determine if a call is dangerous or not.


The calls are classified post-facto by the responding officers.  Next.

CruiserTwelve: Cops have encountered violence in even the most routine calls.Hypnotic Harlequin pointed out a cop being shot just trying to talk to a shoplifter. Cops have been killed making traffic stops for minor violations. A friend of mine was murdered trying to make a routine DUI arrest.


Anecdotes designed to forward the specious notion that cops are in more danger than they are.  Next.

CruiserTwelve: es, cops need to protect themselves. But it's not because they're cowards - in fact the opposite is true. It's because cops often encounter violent people at unexpected times and they necessarily have to be prepared to react.


Treat every encounter as potentially violent, treat ever suspect as though they are guilty, and open every encounter with aggression and force which you apply unevenly to certain segments of the population in ways which are racist at both the institutional and personal level.  And use your union to ensure that when you cross the line, the public isn't allowed to know, or see the investigation that almost always exonerates you so you don't face any consequences.

"Gee whiz, why are we experiencing so much random unexpected pushback from suspects of minor cirmes?  Guess we aren't acting tough enough and subduing people hard enough."

Nothing in the farking world will convince cops of how incredibly stupid and counterproductive this strategy is, which is why police departments cannot be reformed and must be defunded, dismantled, and rebuilt from scratch.

CruiserTwelve: The fact that cops routinely respond to these unpredictable situations is the opposite of cowardice. As a result, cops sometimes over-react, and it's surprising the number of unjustified shootings by police isn't higher.


Whatever broken thing police have become over the last two generations, the American people (outside of white supremacists, Trumpers, and corporations) don't need it or want it.  Quit.  Do something else that you think is safer.  Your "bravery" isn't helping (and it's a pathetic facade for playing warrior anyway).
 
2 days ago  
Is "Trained Warrior" a common misspelling of "Heavily-armed Asshole"?
 
2 days ago  

way south: revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.

You think they'd want to do that?
Sit in a patrol car all night just to be there when they need to pull some naked crazy guy from a tree?

I think people have a really high expectation of what social workers will do when deployed to the front.


Where is this "front" you speak of being "deployed" to?
Using the language of war to describe our cities, towns, and citizens as a defense of [alleged] peace officers is next-level cognitive dissonance. Most of us realize the issues that cause crime and unrest are complicated, as are the solutions. War-mongering half-wits don't have the skills (or even the capacity to develop those skills) necessary to be part of those solutions. Police have been proven time and time again to be incredibly ineffective at their jobs. Not only do they not prevent crime, they have a shiat track record of solving crimes. There is no logical argument for continuing to support this type of law enforcement. I don't think we should de-fund. We should rip that whole system out and rebuild it from scratch.
 
2 days ago  

Hypnotic Harlequin: But in reality, the green area is are the kind of calls where 31% of assaults on police officers occur.


Because police only know how to apply and escalate violence, and those are situations where people are emotional enough to fight.  Except they aren't just looking to fight anyone... they fight cops because cops are generally blunt instruments that suck ass at anything requiring negotiation or mediation.

That's why this article is dumb.  The author just doesn't understand how policing works.

No, YOU'RE dumb for failing to understand the argument that the single-minded warrior-cop is completely unsuited to handle 96% of the calls they are sent on.  Including the ones you colored green.  The assumption that because police encounter violence on a call, that means that anyone would encounter violence on that call is moronic.

Police are trained and primed to be violent in handling non-violent people, so they cause violence.  Your fumbling attempts to ignore this point is why you're a joke.
 
2 days ago  
Omg fark the whole problem is in the headline. Cops are cops, not warriors.  Different farking job! Thats youre problem right there america.

fark you bush and your war on terror and militarization of the police to fight jihad that....never showed up.

fark Republicans and their overreach.

This, like the refugee issue here in Europe, is all directly attributable to policies Dubya implemented during the wrrr on trrr. And 20 years later we are having the reckoning and having to undo yet another republican shiat show.
 
2 days ago  
Hypnotic Harlequin:  Police violence happens because people do not want to be arrested.

There are thousands of hours of video footage of this summer's protests that prove your point is bullshiat.
 
2 days ago  
I bet the vast majority are trained and expected to pull people over for speeding.
 
2 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I don't think it is appreciated how many people go from military to law enforcement and take that mentality with them.


My personal experience is that it was mostly the biggest jerks from high school, but one of my really cool friends became a really cool police officer.
 
2 days ago  

HakunaMatata: way south: revrendjim: Which is why actual social workers should ride along with the police on those kinds of calls.

You think they'd want to do that?
Sit in a patrol car all night just to be there when they need to pull some naked crazy guy from a tree?

I think people have a really high expectation of what social workers will do when deployed to the front.

Where is this "front" you speak of being "deployed" to?
Using the language of war to describe our cities, towns, and citizens as a defense of [alleged] peace officers is next-level cognitive dissonance. Most of us realize the issues that cause crime and unrest are complicated, as are the solutions. War-mongering half-wits don't have the skills (or even the capacity to develop those skills) necessary to be part of those solutions. Police have been proven time and time again to be incredibly ineffective at their jobs. Not only do they not prevent crime, they have a shiat track record of solving crimes. There is no logical argument for continuing to support this type of law enforcement. I don't think we should de-fund. We should rip that whole system out and rebuild it from scratch.


Don't be daft. Military terminology is used all over our language. It does not change the fact that you want to experiment with trauma-aware gender-affirming non-racism in a profession where you will be called on to deal with people who can turn violent for very little provocation.

Here is a shooting that resulted from someone enforcing mandatory mask wearing.  A stupid argument turned into a stabbing spree And a lethal encounter. Now Put yourself in the officers shoes and do better than her by talking this guy down. Use whatever flavor of Mumbo jumbo you think will work when he's clearly not listening.  (Video NSFW)

man with knife EATS 9 BULLETS before stopping - Eaton police shooting breakdown
Youtube cDA7y63N8r4


/Just because you want something different doesn't mean anyone knows how to make things work differently.
/iterative reform is what got us here, and we know from experience that it's better than starting from scratch.
/but some cities insist on relearning that..
 
2 days ago  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Yesterday

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The day before

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North Hollywood  1997

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.  What do you think today will bring?


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2 days ago  

Z-clipped: Anecdotes designed to forward the specious notion that cops are in more danger than they are.  Next.


No, the anecdotes is intended to dispel the specious notion that violence only occurs when police respond to calls about violent crime.  It's not about how often police are in danger, its about the utter randomness of when police encounter danger.

Z-clipped: Because police only know how to apply and escalate violence, and those are situations where people are emotional enough to fight.  Except they aren't just looking to fight anyone... they fight cops because cops are generally blunt instruments that suck ass at anything requiring negotiation or mediation.


If that's true, then why do police only use force in 3.3% of contacts?  You're not spitting truth here, dude, you're just demonstrating your bias.  The numbers simply do not back up your claims.  The ratio of police-initiated contacts where the civilian rated the officer behavior as proper and professional to police initiated contacts that involved a use of force is 25:1.  Those kinds of numbers are not the result of lunkheads who only know how to apply and escalate violence.

Z-clipped: The assumption that because police encounter violence on a call, that means that anyone would encounter violence on that call is moronic.


No, it's not.  If you send someone with authority to respond to a call, they will provoke resistance from people who have authority issues.  It doesn't matter if you call them police officers, social workers, or some new euphemism.
 
2 days ago  

CruiserTwelve: This article gets a few things right and a few things very wrong.

FTA: "In fact, the overwhelming majority of officers spend only a small fraction of their time responding to violent crime."

The initial classification of a call is not an accurate way to determine if a call is dangerous or not. Cops have encountered violence in even the most routine calls. Hypnotic Harlequin pointed out a cop being shot just trying to talk to a shoplifter. Cops have been killed making traffic stops for minor violations. A friend of mine was murdered trying to make a routine DUI arrest. But when cops try to prepare themselves by training for these unexpected encounters, you get people that think like this:

Sgygus: Police aren't trained be behave like warriors, they are trained to behave like cowards.  Protect themselves first and foremost.

Yes, cops need to protect themselves. But it's not because they're cowards - in fact the opposite is true. It's because cops often encounter violent people at unexpected times and they necessarily have to be prepared to react. The fact that cops routinely respond to these unpredictable situations is the opposite of cowardice. As a result, cops sometimes over-react, and it's surprising the number of unjustified shootings by police isn't higher.

That being said, stop having unrealistic expectations of cops. Stop expecting the police to solve problems that are unsolvable. Here's the most accurate thing in the article:

"The reason I think we need to rethink policing is because I care about police," says Rizer, the former officer and R Street researcher. "I want to make policing prestigious again - not the prestige of power, but the prestige of respect. But in order to do that, we need to stop underfunding everything else and leaving the police holding a bag of shiat."

What he said.


But Taxes Are TheftTM!!!
 
2 days ago  

Bonzo_1116: CruiserTwelve: This article gets a few things right and a few things very wrong.

FTA: "In fact, the overwhelming majority of officers spend only a small fraction of their time responding to violent crime."

The initial classification of a call is not an accurate way to determine if a call is dangerous or not. Cops have encountered violence in even the most routine calls. Hypnotic Harlequin pointed out a cop being shot just trying to talk to a shoplifter. Cops have been killed making traffic stops for minor violations. A friend of mine was murdered trying to make a routine DUI arrest. But when cops try to prepare themselves by training for these unexpected encounters, you get people that think like this:

Sgygus: Police aren't trained be behave like warriors, they are trained to behave like cowards.  Protect themselves first and foremost.

Yes, cops need to protect themselves. But it's not because they're cowards - in fact the opposite is true. It's because cops often encounter violent people at unexpected times and they necessarily have to be prepared to react. The fact that cops routinely respond to these unpredictable situations is the opposite of cowardice. As a result, cops sometimes over-react, and it's surprising the number of unjustified shootings by police isn't higher.

That being said, stop having unrealistic expectations of cops. Stop expecting the police to solve problems that are unsolvable. Here's the most accurate thing in the article:

"The reason I think we need to rethink policing is because I care about police," says Rizer, the former officer and R Street researcher. "I want to make policing prestigious again - not the prestige of power, but the prestige of respect. But in order to do that, we need to stop underfunding everything else and leaving the police holding a bag of shiat."

What he said.

But Taxes Are TheftTM!!!


How many dollars will make police and schools perfect?
 
2 days ago  

Hypnotic Harlequin: anecdotes


ARE NOT DATA YOU DOLT
 
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