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(Refinery29)   Is asking women to wear makeup for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal?   (refinery29.com) divider line
    More: Survey, Discrimination, Gender, Sexism, Woman, Sexual harassment, woman's right, Female, Sex  
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3527 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2020 at 4:05 PM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

 
2020-07-23 2:38:58 PM  
156 votes:
Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.
 
2020-07-23 4:09:30 PM  
92 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?
 
2020-07-23 2:38:10 PM  
80 votes:
I don't know if it is or isn't legal (probably depends on what country or state/province you're in), but I think it is sexist and should be illegal.
 
2020-07-23 2:56:08 PM  
75 votes:
It's sexist.  The women should follow the letter of the policy, and apply Groucho Marx style eyebrows and mustache.   "There.  Policy followed.  Are there any questions?  Would we like to maybe rethink this policy, or shall we attend the next zoom meeting as Pennywise?"
 
2020-07-23 2:39:27 PM  
67 votes:
I care as much about make-up during zoom meetings as I do about pants.
 
2020-07-23 4:08:41 PM  
52 votes:
If anyone asks me to do my hair (I just throw it in a ponytail) or wear makeup, I will personally drive to their house and cover them in spray tan.  "There, farkwad!  How do YOU like wearing a coating of stuff all day just for 1 stupid conference call where you're all on your phones anyway??"
 
2020-07-23 4:28:03 PM  
44 votes:
someone who believes i cannot fulfill my work obligations without putting on lipstick and mascara (unless my career is "make up model") is probably so deeply sexist they don't even realize it's a sexist thing to believe.

if a face of makeup magically turned a human into a better lawyer, or teacher, or investor, or executive, or chemist, or psychiatrist, or whatever, men's makeup lines would have dominated products marketed to women long ago.

asking women, and only women, to "look pretty for the camera" at a virtual (or physical) work meeting is sexist as f*ck.
 
2020-07-23 4:12:37 PM  
44 votes:
Is asking women to wear make-up for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal? Hell yeah. The cosmetics industry should be reconverted into medical equipment/substances.
 
2020-07-23 4:33:18 PM  
30 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


I've counted as "professional" at least a few times in my life, and during none of those times was I wearing makeup.

The lack of makeup did not hinder my ability to look or be professional, or to demonstrate my skills to those present.

Women absolutely DO NOT need to wear makeup.  Thanks.
 
2020-07-23 4:12:48 PM  
29 votes:
There should be no such work requirement in any context. Unless you're a clown.
 
2020-07-23 2:50:55 PM  
29 votes:
Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Probably.
 
2020-07-23 4:21:31 PM  
28 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


unless the employee is a farking clown, facepaint is not part of a professional image.
 
2020-07-23 4:36:16 PM  
27 votes:

Jaws_Victim: How sexist and tone deaf of their CEO.

In the meantime, how about she trade me with my essential job, and she go out in public and expose herself to covid, and I'll stay home and put make up on and sit on my ass on a webcam?

Real tired of white collar people and their "issues" staying home and being safe.


Feminism and equal rights isn't a "white collar" issue.  And I'm sure you'd be pissed off if you were considered lesser at your place of employment if you weren't wearing makeup.

We can't let this crap slide just because the world's on fire.  Now's the time to make changes.
 
2020-07-23 4:16:37 PM  
27 votes:
How sexist and tone deaf of their CEO.

In the meantime, how about she trade me with my essential job, and she go out in public and expose herself to covid, and I'll stay home and put make up on and sit on my ass on a webcam?

Real tired of white collar people and their "issues" staying home and being safe.
 
2020-07-23 4:16:56 PM  
26 votes:
I have never worn makeup.

If you asked me to wear makeup, and probably utterly destroy my skin in the process. I'm going full tilt clown. Pennywise, Bozo? Maybe Deulla Dent?

Also, fun fact, you can use contour makeup to Drag King too. Maybe I'll look up Drag King makeup tutorials and arrive in the Zoom meeting as the man I'd never been until that moment.

/you never know
 
2020-07-23 4:23:12 PM  
25 votes:
If I was a lady and my boss told me that I would show up the next day like King Diamond

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 4:26:09 PM  
24 votes:

Magnanimous_J: A lot of [women] look like Winston Churchill in a wig.


So what? As long as they're clean and kempt, what difference does it make?
 
2020-07-23 4:34:27 PM  
21 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


I'll agree with the caveat that the request be as gender neutral and as common sense as possible.

We've had similar discussions at my workplace, and the consensus boiled down to this: if it's a zoom meeting with a client, do us proud & be presentable. If it's a zoom meeting with coworkers, have basic personal hygiene.

Also, this:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 3:12:36 PM  
20 votes:
Yes.
Next question.
 
2020-07-23 4:36:08 PM  
19 votes:
If a woman wants to wear make-up, that's her choice. There is no circumstance under which a woman should HAVE to wear make-up. None. Zero. Nada.

If I were a woman and someone, especially a man, made a comment that I had to/should wear make-up, I'd like to think the first words out of my mouth would be "where's yours?", closely followed by "fark off".
 
2020-07-23 5:07:04 PM  
17 votes:
The amount of people in this thread who think that wearing make-up is a requirement for women to "look professional" while not also applying that standard to men is just wild.

That line of thinking is sexist, even if it's just subconscious and even if you're big on feminism. That's how deeply pervasive this shiat is in our society. You're exhibiting a taught bias. And that's okay! This learned crap runs deep. Just recognize that it is a bias and work to check yourself in the future.
 
2020-07-23 4:20:42 PM  
17 votes:
I never understood the appeal of makeup. My wife wears none and she's much prettier without it. Why do some women feel the need to dress like clowns? When I was younger and dating, any girl with makeup on was an instant no.
 
2020-07-23 4:19:22 PM  
17 votes:
Unless you require men to wear makeup then yes, asking women to wear it is sexist.
Professional appearance is clothing and coiffure (and hygiene, but hopefully that goes without saying). Women, or men, adding makeup to their look should be strictly voluntary.
 
2020-07-23 4:09:34 PM  
17 votes:

Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.


Done in two.
 
2020-07-23 4:19:08 PM  
16 votes:
This is when it might be convenient for your computer to start experiencing "technical difficulties" with its camera.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
Xai [TotalFark]
2020-07-23 3:07:07 PM  
16 votes:
If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.
 
2020-07-23 4:23:57 PM  
15 votes:

angryjd: No and no.


Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.
 
2020-07-23 5:10:53 PM  
14 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.


Makeup has literally nothing to do with that.
 
2020-07-23 4:57:51 PM  
14 votes:

AmbassadorBooze: Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.

You almost got to the solution.  Make the men wear make up too.  Problem solved.


As you insist:
byrdie.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 4:55:31 PM  
14 votes:

patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.


That's a nice way of justifying sexism.
 
2020-07-23 4:31:22 PM  
14 votes:

angryjd: No and no.


Yes, actually, and discrimination is illegal.

You're welcome.
 
2020-07-23 4:23:10 PM  
13 votes:
The key to this situation is in the first paragraph.

It's a non-profit.

Non-profits are bottomless pits of dysfunction and weird 'management' practices.
 
2020-07-23 4:19:24 PM  
13 votes:
Re: Drag Kings

Fark user imageView Full Size


Fark user imageView Full Size


What, it's even a full face of makeup. Contoured, highlighted.
 
2020-07-23 4:59:59 PM  
12 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


Um no. If men are not asked to come to the party with makeup on to be "professional" then neither should women. Women are also just fine the way are.

Tell everyone to brush their hair and have a neat appearance.

The. End.
 
2020-07-23 4:28:13 PM  
12 votes:
If I was her coworker I would have popped on over the pharmacy (with mask, of course), and purchased some lipstick and blush and would have applied it before the next meeting with the boss. And, Yes, I am a man. And, No, I would not care if I got in trouble for it.
 
2020-07-23 8:03:23 PM  
11 votes:
Farkers I had previously favored as racist are also sexist, no surprise there.
 
2020-07-23 5:51:04 PM  
11 votes:

whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.


"If we let black people stay at our hotel / eat at our restaurant / swim in our pool
Then we will lose all of our white customers" .
This is how segregation was explained to little kids in 1960.
 
2020-07-23 5:36:57 PM  
11 votes:

Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?


Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

It has never affected my ability to do anything in my life. This might shock you, but makeup doesn't suddenly give someone a skill set (beyond the ability to do makeup). It doesn't improve your ability to work.

In my case, it would directly damage me. I have FOUR diagnosed skin conditions. I have to use specialty face cleaners and I'm on a small battery of medication, topical and oral, to try to control my skin.

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.
 
2020-07-23 4:50:52 PM  
11 votes:

Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.


False equivalence much?
 
2020-07-23 4:23:07 PM  
11 votes:
I have been watching the news where the women reporters are not wearing TV makeup. They look fine to me.
 
2020-07-23 8:57:56 PM  
10 votes:
media.musely.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 6:05:12 PM  
10 votes:
Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.


I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.
 
2020-07-23 5:11:04 PM  
10 votes:
I consider this to be the best lipstick application tutorial in the world:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 4:42:00 PM  
10 votes:
I work for the fruity computer company and have been working at home and been participating in meetings via video for the last 6 years.

Our Rules.

1.Your background be neat and orderly.
2.Wear pants
3.Beard or no makeup is fine


They only ask that you be somewhat presentable for the hour and 15 minutes you are on camera, once a week.

No face cream, boxers, nail cutting, etc.
 
2020-07-23 4:19:29 PM  
10 votes:

Devolving_Spud: It's sexist.  The women should follow the letter of the policy, and apply Groucho Marx style eyebrows and mustache.   "There.  Policy followed.  Are there any questions?  Would we like to maybe rethink this policy, or shall we attend the next zoom meeting as Pennywise?"


And all the men should wear makeup in solidarity.
 
2020-07-24 12:21:24 AM  
9 votes:

cew-smoke: Why are men not considered "professional" when they wear makeup?


Because Beau Brummel thought make-up of the 18th century was foppish and unbenefiting a manly appearance, and made the lack of make-up a signature of the Dandy style.  Because Brummel was good friends with the King of England at the height of British Empire, and the King took all of his fashion advice from Brummel, the Dandy style came to define men's fashion for a century, and still defines male professional fashion, with only one slight alteration.

The Dandy style, according to Brummel, was define by several key characteristics:
* Men do not wear make-up.
* Men wear their hair short and are clean-shaven.
* Men wear trousers, a shirt, a jacket and a neck tie.
* The jacket is a dark color, the shirt is white, and the trousers are white.

2.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size

The long tailed tuxedo is the most direct descendant of this look. By the industrial age, the trousers had become dark as well, and the neck tie was defined as the modern tie, with other forms of neckwear falling out of favor.  Suits became less form fitting and boxier until they become the modern business uniform, eventually evolving into this very 1950s look:

s7d4.scene7.comView Full Size


Women never had a Beau Brummell to come along and declare that make-up was no longer cool, hip or stylish, and by the time women started complaining that make-up was oppressive, there no longer existed celebrities with sufficient cachet to affect women's fashion globally the way Geogre IV could as king of a globe spanning empire.
 
2020-07-23 5:14:51 PM  
9 votes:

brizzle365: its a reasonable request to be presentable.

If the men are being asked to be cleanly groomed (shave and at least try to do something with your hair so it doesn't look like you just rolled out of bed), then its fair and reasonable.

But, what do I know, I have a dick.


Funny how one can look groomed without having to put goo on their face.
 
2020-07-23 5:02:37 PM  
9 votes:
If you think the guy that said this has never offered several women employment or a promotion in exchange for sex, you just haven't thought about it yet.  Go ahead.  Think about it.

/ There it is.
 
2020-07-23 10:42:14 PM  
8 votes:
It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.  That's not a dig--I'm just surprised, because Fark seems like such a motley crew of people who love to find ways to bend and break the rules and stand out from the crowd.

Anyway, dress codes and their legal status is complicated and stupid.  Basically, as the laws stand, you can have separate dress codes for men and women provided thatthe burden of appearance is relatively balanced between the sexes.  So you can make women wear makeup, if you make men shave and use product in their hair.  Women can be made to shave/wear stockings, while men are made to wear suits.  It's all very dumb and affords employers and the law very wide latitude in enforcement.

All because the Supreme Court, in their infinite cowardice, has really, really not wanted to wander into that miasma, because they knew if they did, it would throw our entire society's idea of sex and gender into upheaval, and if nothing else, the Supreme Court is careful to a fault about not wanting to upend society if they can help it.  (It's a shame, because they probably have more power than anyone else to change society, and they by and large refuse to flex that power.)

Now, we did just have a Supreme Court ruling that could potentially turn all of these dress codes on their ear, because we now have even more robust opinions regarding employment and discrimination based on sex, so I'm anticipating that people will start to challenge these codes.  Especially since we've been in lockdown for a while and a lot of people are starting to realize just how stupid and pointless so many of these dress code demands really were.   

One thing that rarely gets dissected properly is just what "professionalism" is--we generally just tautologically define it as "that which looks professional," and employee handbooks are kept deliberately vague on this front in order to keep the power concentrated in the corporation.  But it is a fact that our sense of "professionalism" in appearance is absolutely based in white supremacy, hetero-normativity, and patriarchy--that is, our sense of what is and isn't professional is based on what straight, white, cisgender men like and want to see.

(I'm sure some of you are going, "I'm one of those and I don't like it!", and you're missing the point--I'm talking about society, not you, individually.)

We see this most obviously in the way we police Black women's hair:  most notably, employers love to demand that Black women straighten their hair, which they never require of white women, despite the fact that white women can also have kinky and curly hair.  And relaxed hair is expensive and labor-intensive, not to mention painful--yet we're happy to keep making Black women do it so that they can fit ourmold of what we've decided, as a whites-dominated society, is and is not acceptable.  They are having to alter their bodies because we decided that their bodies, as naturally occurring, are unacceptable in the workplace.  That's really messed up.  

But this goes for everything else, too:  besides being washed and clothed in clean clothes, what makes these things "professional"?  Makeup, jewelry?  Suits?  Ties?  Leather shoes?  Heels?  None of these things are inherently professional or unprofessional--we have simply allowed the dominant culture to decide that they are.  Are dashikis professional?  How about Indian-subcontinent or Middle Eastern garb?  Why or why not?

And I haven't even gotten into the monkey wrench that are gender identity and gender expression, which most people don't realize aren't even the same thing--and it's likely that the Supreme Court ruling is going to allow for these gender lines to be blurred even more, because how can you now disallow a man from doing something you'd allow a woman?  The SC ruling was very clear that you cannot do this.  So will that mean if skirts are allowed, will men get to wear them?  I hope so, because men should have been allowed their own gender expression from the beginning, just like women.  And there are people who are neither men nor women--people who are gender non-conforming, gender-fluid, Two Spirit, et cetera.  And then there are people who are neither male nor female, being intersex (whom we used to call "hermaphrodites," but that word is now considered outmoded and offense, like "transsexual" and "Negro")--what are they supposed to wear, since they don't fit into eithercategory?

The whole thing is stupid.  Makeup is stupid.  "Professionalism" is stupid.  Be clean, be relatively friendly, and get your job done.  That's all that really matters.

Oh, and fark your client's bigotry.  You couldn't fire someone for being Black because your clients are racist assholes, and you shouldn't be able to fire a woman for not wearing makeup just because your clients are a bunch of middle-aged chauvinistic farkwads.  Stop leaning on capitalism to justify your bigotry.
 
2020-07-23 5:54:31 PM  
8 votes:

patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.


See bolded part.   That means you're not.
 
2020-07-23 5:11:20 PM  
8 votes:
If every man and woman gets the identical instruction to wear makeup then it is probably legal.

...Though a bit creepy and authoritarian.  Some people just need to learn to mind their own business.


If it is only aimed at women then farking yes it is illegal, sexist, and immoral.  What the fark is wrong with you people?
 
2020-07-23 5:01:50 PM  
8 votes:

patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?


You don't think you're being sexist?
 
2020-07-23 4:39:12 PM  
8 votes:
Any organizational manager who requires video meetings for no good reason should be shot. Voice works fine.
 
2020-07-23 6:38:33 PM  
7 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Nobody in Peculiar: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.

I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.


do they (makeup, shaving)  require  the investment of time, effort, $, and possibly cause health or psychological effects  , for the purpose of transforming one's natural appearance, presumably to the established aesthetic standards of those in power?

then no, they aren't really different.


Perhaps I wasn't clear...
My point was that men can choose to shave or not. The article is about women being told to wear make-up, whether they want to or not. They are 2 different things.

Put yourself in the situation I provided, or one similar. How would you feel if your employer said you had to do something that in no way effected your job performance, but doing that thing made you physically or emotionally uncomfortable? You don't want to do this thing, but if you don't, you could lose your job. Who wants to make that decision?
 
2020-07-23 5:39:44 PM  
7 votes:

whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.


It's the Libertarian way, possible profits are put ahead of what's right.
 
2020-07-23 4:33:37 PM  
7 votes:
That tis has to be even even be talked about reinforces my belief that some people are just around to make life miserable for others. These people need to be purged to make life better.
 
2020-07-23 5:21:51 PM  
6 votes:

NotThatGuyAgain: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

Not to Whidbey they don't, not for any amount.


*the point*

you  ---------->
 
2020-07-23 4:43:56 PM  
6 votes:

Bad Luck Schleprock: The expectations for a Zoom meeting should be the same as those for an in-person meeting. If your employer has a required level of visual expectations for you as a representative of their company, you should be expected to follow those same expectations online.

Why is this even an issue?


I am not a trained psychologist and most of my clients are the imaginary personalities that I have imprinted onto my stuffed animals, but in the course of my training and studies and career, I have determined that the typical individual on Fark Dot Com (and particularly those posting in the Politics Tab) suffers from low self-esteem.

What this means is that because of an inability to develop self-confidence and achieve meaningful life goals, the result of a sheltered middle-class upbringing in which they experienced no adversity, they are offended by everyone and everything.  If they do not have something to be offended by in that particular moment, they will actively search for it.

They now actively seek out life experiences which justify their state of mind, this article (and discussion thread) are one of those moments.  The result is that Farkers will use this thread (and others) on the path to making the world a better place, while openly bemoaning how they will never have children because the world will not be a better place.

They will read this post and they will think about replying, but the sad truth is that even on digital messageboards, they know they are weak and powerless to stop dominant alphas such as myself, the Chads and Stacys who write multiple paragraphs as though they are handing in a one-hundred-word essay to their teacher.

They will cower at the thought of conflict because they lack the self-esteem to confront those who belittle them.  They will politely upvote this post and they will move on, while people such as myself move on to better things, like the next season of that anime where the high school girls find out the teachers are the vampires who roam the night.

Makes you wonder why the vampires hold all the classes at night.  Must have something to do with Japanese culture.
 
2020-07-23 4:38:03 PM  
6 votes:
I love how Fark is often called a cesspit of progressive lunacy, while said Farkers defend the notion that women can't look professional unless they hide their face.
 
2020-07-23 4:36:07 PM  
6 votes:
If I participated in a video meeting (and I'm male) and any comment was made or any request was stated about anyone needing to wear makeup, I would scream, cuss and end the call if I could.  No place for that talk.  I have no idea if it's illegal, but I damn sure won't share bytes with anyone that thinks like that, male or female.  If I was in a position to fire the person who commented, I would then and there in front of everyone on the call.  Then, I would mail them their last check with a gift card to Ulta and a big steaming bag of shiat.
 
2020-07-23 4:07:17 PM  
6 votes:
Yes.
 
2020-07-24 2:57:12 AM  
5 votes:
the money is in the banana stand:

There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up.

Your opinion about their physical attractiveness without make-up isn't relevant to the issue of their professional appearance.
 
2020-07-23 8:34:02 PM  
5 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


Demanding women wear make-up in order to "present a professional image" is, in itself, a sexist position.
 
2020-07-23 8:06:54 PM  
5 votes:
Ah...  no.  Makeup being required or even suggested is purely sexist.  If a women or man doesn't want to wear fricking makeup, they get to not wear makeup.
 
2020-07-23 7:14:59 PM  
5 votes:
If we are going to battle out of date sexist work policies, can we please get rid of the tie (which almost exclusively is inflicted on men). It serves no purpose other than having a convenient noose available to anyone interested.
 
2020-07-23 5:55:15 PM  
5 votes:

NotThatGuyAgain: Good lord, don't feed Whidbey logic.


Actually both of you are avoiding the question:

Do you think you're not sexist?

Logic says you are.
 
2020-07-23 5:12:07 PM  
5 votes:

brizzle365: its a reasonable request to be presentable.

If the men are being asked to be cleanly groomed (shave and at least try to do something with your hair so it doesn't look like you just rolled out of bed), then its fair and reasonable.

But, what do I know, I have a dick.


So wash our face and brush our hair?

I mean most women are clean shaven by default but I'm sure those that aren't can work something out.

Or, I expect to see you James Charles glammed out on the zoom call, your choice.

/37 and have never worn makeup
//my skin would likely destroy itself if I tried
 
2020-07-23 4:25:12 PM  
5 votes:

Marcos P: If I was a lady and my boss told me that I would show up the next day like King Diamond

[Fark user image 425x633]


YOU. I like the cut of your jib.
 
2020-07-23 4:23:04 PM  
5 votes:
Just put on clothes.  The bra decision is up to you but I think keeping nipples off of Zoom calls is probably a good place to draw a line for both workplace decency and etiquette in general... Unless your job is in the high fashion world where it's bad etiquette to NOT accent your nipples somehow.

Also, multiple Zoom videos in multiple houses in your neighborhood kills bandwidth.  You may just be better off killing the video feed altogether.

/Unless Janice from Marketing Communications is showing her nipples again.
 
2020-07-24 5:24:37 AM  
4 votes:

Murkanen: Hypnotic Harlequin:

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.

There's no reason to take it that far though.  If women enjoy it let them wear it, and for those who don't let them forego the hassle of putting it on.  As more decide that they like the convenience of ignoring it more than they like the visual appeal it gives them it will gradually become less popular, or nothing will change, but either way it shouldn't have any bearing on their "professionalism".


Indeed. Most professionals don't use wheelchairs, or hearing aids, or braille, but we don't define professionalism by whether or not someone uses these things. Well, mostly.
 
2020-07-24 5:01:36 AM  
4 votes:
the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.
 
2020-07-24 3:03:05 AM  
4 votes:

Magnanimous_J: Some women can look put together without makeup. A lot of them look like Winston Churchill in a wig.


Even if that were true, what would it have to do with professionalism? Would you chose a heart surgeon based on how much makeup she wore?
 
2020-07-23 11:52:09 PM  
4 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


Your first sentence proves it is sexist. Who is determining that women must wear makeup to be "professional"? Why are men not considered "professional" when they wear makeup? The answer is because of tired expectations of what the sexes must do to meet this arbitrary definition of "professional". So, without realizing it you proved that this is definitively sexist.  Either that or you aren't 100% sure what the word sexist means.  Which to be fair a lot of people don't.  Hint: It has nothing to do with feminism.
 
2020-07-23 10:09:52 PM  
4 votes:

trialpha: If there are any standards pertaining to beards, ie. "must be neat and trim", those standards are thus sexist, since they apply only to men.


Not quite. There's nothing in there about who's allowed (or not allowed) to wear a beard, just that if you wear one, it be neat and trim. If Barb from Accounting wants to wear a beard, and can grow one, it's all good. Just so long as it's neat and trim.
 
2020-07-23 9:33:37 PM  
4 votes:
It's definitely sexist and probably illegal, unless you're asking the guys to put it on too.
 
2020-07-23 8:22:26 PM  
4 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Now, with that said, there are some jobs where literally having facial hair might impede the ability to do work (wearing a chemical exposure mask, for example).


Hi bro! Guess what! My job requires a full face respirator. Guess what you can't have when you wear a full face or even a half face? A farking beard.

Guess what doesn't effect my ability to wear respiratory protection? My not wearing makeup.

There are a LOT of jobs where facial hair is going to be frowned upon FOR GOOD farkING REASON, because it's a god damn safety hazard for various reasons. Guess what isn't. The lack, or presence, of makeup.

THESE ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE WORKPLACE.

Also, just say you want women to be pleasant to look at in your eyes man. There's literally no other reason for you to champion this. It has nothing to do with "looking professional."

I'm wrong you say? Okay. I need you to guy buy several makeup palettes and brush up on skill because what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander buddy boy, and I expect a full farking James Charles glam look ready by the end of this week.
 
2020-07-23 6:05:32 PM  
4 votes:

stray_capts: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.


In Sweden, male train operators started wearing skirts in the summer because the company dress code didn't permit shorts but skirts were allowed:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe​-​22828150
 
2020-07-23 5:05:15 PM  
4 votes:

Leader O'Cola: whidbey: Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

False equivalence much?

Um it's an inconvenient standard of presentation that doesnt improve actual job performance and only is required of one gender....


Yeah uh, I realized I was being a bit triggerhappy there.   I get it.
 
2020-07-23 4:53:49 PM  
4 votes:
It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.
 
2020-07-23 4:30:03 PM  
4 votes:
The expectations for a Zoom meeting should be the same as those for an in-person meeting. If your employer has a required level of visual expectations for you as a representative of their company, you should be expected to follow those same expectations online.

Why is this even an issue?
 
2020-07-23 4:12:19 PM  
4 votes:
They don't ask me to wear pants, so I don't ask them to wear makeup.
 
2020-07-24 12:05:09 AM  
3 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no,


If you are not requiring men to wear makeup to present a professional image but require it from the women then that is sexual discrimination.
 
2020-07-23 9:37:41 PM  
3 votes:

Stands With A Tiny Fist: Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Almost certainly depends on the jurisdiction. Dunno if it's ever been legislated or tested in Canada, but I'm 99% sure I know how our Supreme Court would rule on the matter.


I'm 100% certain that the Supreme Court that just ruled that sex discrimination laws cover transgender folks would also rule that sex discrimination laws cover cisgender folks.
 
2020-07-23 8:29:59 PM  
3 votes:

Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?

Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

It has never affected my ability to do anything in my life. This might shock you, but makeup doesn't suddenly give someone a skill set (beyond the ability to do makeup). It doesn't improve your ability to work.

In my case, it would directly damage me. I have FOUR diagnosed skin conditions. I have to use specialty face cleaners and I'm on a small battery of medication, topical and oral, to try to control my skin.

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.


you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.
 
2020-07-23 8:22:54 PM  
3 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

Makeup has literally nothing to do with that.

how is it any different than shaving your facial hair   (male) ?


One is naturally occurring, and doesn't always come in even so shaving/trimming makes it look a little better, much like a haircut.

Makeup is not naturally occurring and doesn't define professionalism.
Unless the job specifically requires the use of makeup, clowns, mines, people who work under intense lights such as actors or in the news, then makeup is completely up to the woman and yes it's sexist to request one wear it.

/Guy, hates to shave but will clean up if I'm going to the office.
//Would look horrible in makeup
 
2020-07-23 7:30:50 PM  
3 votes:

Daedalus27: If we are going to battle out of date sexist work policies, can we please get rid of the tie (which almost exclusively is inflicted on men). It serves no purpose other than having a convenient noose available to anyone interested.


A tie isn't foreign objects placed directly in proximity of your eyes, nose, and mouth are you stupid?
WTF?
Humans are garbage.
 
2020-07-23 6:19:20 PM  
3 votes:

Nobody in Peculiar: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.

I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.



do they (makeup, shaving)  require  the investment of time, effort, $, and possibly cause health or psychological effects  , for the purpose of transforming one's natural appearance, presumably to the established aesthetic standards of those in power?

then no, they aren't really different.
 
2020-07-23 5:58:53 PM  
3 votes:

NotThatGuyAgain: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.

See bolded part.   That means you're not.

[dumb.com image 414x337]


Deflection noted.
 
2020-07-23 5:30:17 PM  
3 votes:

ViolentEastCoastCity: Jaws_Victim: How sexist and tone deaf of their CEO.

In the meantime, how about she trade me with my essential job, and she go out in public and expose herself to covid, and I'll stay home and put make up on and sit on my ass on a webcam?

Real tired of white collar people and their "issues" staying home and being safe.

Feminism and equal rights isn't a "white collar" issue.  And I'm sure you'd be pissed off if you were considered lesser at your place of employment if you weren't wearing makeup.

We can't let this crap slide just because the world's on fire.  Now's the time to make changes.


You are right
 
2020-07-23 5:02:39 PM  
3 votes:

whidbey: Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

False equivalence much?


Um it's an inconvenient standard of presentation that doesnt improve actual job performance and only is required of one gender....
 
2020-07-23 5:01:06 PM  
3 votes:

whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.


You don't think sex sells?
 
2020-07-23 4:46:41 PM  
3 votes:

Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.


I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.
 
2020-07-23 4:42:44 PM  
3 votes:

Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.


Well, that was easy, and correct.
 
2020-07-23 4:38:03 PM  
3 votes:
How about mandatory Snapchat filters for everyone

/fark all your faces, my fellow employees
 
2020-07-23 4:30:12 PM  
3 votes:
Normally I'd say yes.  Because I was taught that treating someone different due to an immutable characteristic from birth over which they have no control is wrong.  But thankfully I became woke, anti-racist, and anti-sexist.  So NOW the only proper thing is to treat men and women differently, as well as people of different races.  Because that's what a good liberal does.
 
2020-07-23 4:29:49 PM  
3 votes:

Goldensummer: There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.


??

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 4:19:13 PM  
3 votes:

UNC_Samurai: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?


Some women can look put together without makeup. A lot of them look like Winston Churchill in a wig.
 
2020-07-23 4:15:36 PM  
3 votes:
At least wash last night's dried spooge off your face.

/ we're trying to have a civilization here
 
2020-07-24 12:43:51 PM  
2 votes:
We don't need to see your face or the room you're sitting in in order to hear what you're saying.
Anything we all need to see is already in your computer.  Share your screen if you want to talk about a document or a schematic.


In the meetings I attend, I've found that the folks that insist on showing their face in meetings are the same folks I've already identified as narcissists.  Your camera contributes nothing beyond "look at me!".
 
2020-07-24 11:56:48 AM  
2 votes:
the money is in the banana stand:

Look, the same goes true for men.

The same is not true for men.  They are judged on whether they get the job done, not whether they look like Brad Pitt auditioning for Troy.
 
2020-07-24 5:20:11 AM  
2 votes:
Hypnotic Harlequin: It's very chicken vs egg, and it can only really be overcome by a mass movement among women to stop wearing makeup and shame women who do wear makeup, but the world no longer functions in a way where such a thing is feasible, as you essentially cannot shame people anymore.

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.


There is no need to stop women wearing make up. All that's needed is to treat them equally at work regardless of whether they wear makeup or not.
 
2020-07-24 2:59:31 AM  
2 votes:

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


What's "professional" about wearing make-up?
 
2020-07-24 12:23:24 AM  
2 votes:

Mock26: If I was her coworker I would have popped on over the pharmacy (with mask, of course), and purchased some lipstick and blush and would have applied it before the next meeting with the boss. And, Yes, I am a man. And, No, I would not care if I got in trouble for it.


The sad thing? That would actually probably improve your attractiveness by some degree, even to men, and therefore give your words more weight. (As long as you don't flip over to the Boy George feminine side and end up dismissed.) Unless your group's ideal look is "rugged frontiersman", clean-shaven men with well-applied makeup are routinely perceived as more intelligent and competent than the same person merely shaven.

Humans are wired with a lot of stupid unconscious triggers.
 
2020-07-24 12:03:07 AM  
2 votes:

UNC_Samurai: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?


Depends on where.  In Oregon or Washington, no.  In NYC, I got the side-eye from several people when I went to an office building and wasn't made up (and didn't when I was).
 
2020-07-23 10:58:51 PM  
2 votes:

austerity101: It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.


*raises hand* 

Had to get a doctor's note to clear a dress code problem with HR over me refusing to wear a bra.

I surprised AF that a doc in the middle of rural Arkansas was willing to do it for me. Had a much harder time clearing the (female) nurses. They wanted to send me through CT, MRI, xray, long-term pain management, etc. Doc listened to my petition and said, "Seems reasonable to me," and signed the note, no tests ordered.

/still have the note so I can hand it over to other companies
//only been asked for it by one other company
 
2020-07-23 10:39:01 PM  
2 votes:

Idiot Stick Bearer: Please oh please do this and post a pic


Sadly, I do not own makeup at all and I hesitate to try a Drag King look as heavily tempted as I am. I really, really do not want hives.

Ishidan: Coming from you, that's amazing. Put on a full body hazmat suit and dive into the greasy depths of the pipe runs of a power plant? Can do. Maybelline? Maybe go fark yourself.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never have. Mom tried desperately to get me into it but like, I could barely put in the effort to keep my hair in a ponytail when it was long. Then my skin shiat the bed and we were struggling to even find soap I could use so it fell by the wayside. Turns out I don't really like looking feminine. Which works because I don't really have a gender. And now it's a blessing, less stuff on my face to cause chaos.

Shampoo is the actual worst though. Free and clear shampoos are few and far between and don't actually seem to do their job. I have to use cetaphil baby shampoo because cetaphil cannot be arsed to make an adult shampoo. Adult face wash? Of course! Shampoo, why would they do that? Ugh.

Kit Fister: you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.


I have rosacea 1 2 and 4, adult acne, contact dermatitis and psoriasis.

Oh, and by the way, I can't even work if I have any open wounds. So if I break out badly or violently react to something... like, say, makeup... guess what?

Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

/my dermatologists, all to a single one, have breathed sighs of relief when I say I don't wear makeup
//fun fact, women have the same problems when they shave dude, just not on their face. yeah.
 
2020-07-23 8:49:54 PM  
2 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Nobody in Peculiar: Leader O'Cola: Nobody in Peculiar: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.

I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.


do they (makeup, shaving)  require  the investment of time, effort, $, and possibly cause health or psychological effects  , for the purpose of transforming one's natural appearance, presumably to the established aesthetic standards of those in power?

then no, they aren't really different.

Perhaps I wasn't clear...
My point was that men can choose to shave or not. The article is about women being told to wear make-up, whether they want to or not. They are 2 different things.

Put yourself in the situation I provided, or one similar. How would you feel if your employer said you had to do something that in no way effected your job performance, but doing that thing made you physically or emotionally uncomfortable? You don't want to do this thing, but if you don't, you could lose your job. Who wants to make that decision?

They can?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.c​om/platform/amp/the-goods/2018/9/28/17​916056/workplace-beards-facial-hair-bl​ack-men-sikhs-publix-chick-fil-a


I am aware that those policies exist and they probably violate EEOC rules. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those policies have been overturned.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/re​l​igious-garb-and-grooming-workplace-rig​hts-and-responsibilities

Should employers be allowed make a policy that says you must shave even if shaving violates your religious tenets or if it causes skin problems? Of course not. It's discriminatory. Having a policy that says women must wear make-up is just as discriminatory.

I expect there might be jobs where having a beard may be detrimental to one performing that job, like having to wear a well sealed mask to prevent contamination, or similar. Exceptions are allowed. I doubt anyone can point out a case where NOT wearing makeup causes some detrimental effect to the job being performed.

Again, what would your reaction be if your employer told you you have to do something that has no impact on the performance of your job, something you don't want to do for whatever reason?
 
2020-07-23 8:09:32 PM  
2 votes:

Latinwolf: Farkers I had previously favored as racist are also sexist, no surprise there.


It really helps one's dating prospects to be neither racist nor sexist.

media1.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 7:56:46 PM  
2 votes:

Nobody in Peculiar: I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave.


Agreed. Heck, in Canada, no fewer than seven members of the Federal Cabinet are wearing beards in official photos  https://pm.gc.ca/en/cabinet (I count the Prime Minister in this count even though he's shaven in his photo on this page, he's wearing a beard right now, at least as of a few days ago. It varies.)  Two of them will literally never shave for cultural reasons.

/  And then there's ZZTop, who don't shave because they're ZZ Frickin' Top. You can't tell me these guys don't know how to dress sharp. :)
 
2020-07-23 7:32:49 PM  
2 votes:

RussianPotato: Normally I'd say yes.  Because I was taught that treating someone different due to an immutable characteristic from birth over which they have no control is wrong.  But thankfully I became woke, anti-racist, and anti-sexist.  So NOW the only proper thing is to treat men and women differently, as well as people of different races.  Because that's what a good liberal does.


Username checks out.

/again
 
2020-07-23 6:58:23 PM  
2 votes:
Do you work for Maybelline? Cover Girl? Calvin Klein? No? 

Then stfu about makeup.
 
2020-07-23 6:56:33 PM  
2 votes:

AmbassadorBooze: Also, unless actually seeing a face is VITAL to the job, all employee units should be given a Unique identification string and a face mask that makes them faceless drones.  No gender, no name, no personal histories, items of flare.  Just working towards the goal of the company until the time to clock out.  If unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is working on the project and Unit 12546666666589 needs information about the project, they just dial up  unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 on their company comm device, exchange the info, and then disconnect.  No gender needed.  No face needed.  Hell, it may have been that unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 was replaced with a robot last year.  Unless the information exchange REQUIRES meat, why would unit 12546666666589 care if BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is meat or not?


I want to believe that you typed out that entire post in full without using copy and paste at any point.
 
2020-07-23 6:56:16 PM  
2 votes:
We're all wearing masks and some arsehole wants cosmetics as well? Get your priorities straight.
 
2020-07-23 6:43:10 PM  
2 votes:

Leader O'Cola: Nobody in Peculiar: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.

I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.


do they (makeup, shaving)  require  the investment of time, effort, $, and possibly cause health or psychological effects  , for the purpose of transforming one's natural appearance, presumably to the established aesthetic standards of those in power?

then no, they aren't really different.


Yeah at worst would be wearing a suit which is attire.  And its still never "improve your face!".

Theres basic grooming, then theres "but wait theres more".  Looks arnt proffesionalism, thats just personal desire.
 
2020-07-23 6:36:55 PM  
2 votes:
It's sexist to ask, and completely unnecessary.  All you really need to say is to ask for everyone to do their best to look professional in their zoom videos, like they would if they were physically at work, but leave it up to them to decide what that means.  You could use a few examples, like having a professional shirt or blouse on instead of pajamas or a raggedy t-shirt.
 
2020-07-23 5:55:32 PM  
2 votes:

SumoJeb: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

unless the employee is a farking clown, facepaint is not part of a professional image.


Fark user imageView Full Size


Whether this is evidence for or against the quoted statement, I leave as an exercise for the reader.
 
2020-07-23 5:45:49 PM  
2 votes:
If you ask one person you better ask all of them to wear makeup. And try not to look so fat and stupid.
 
2020-07-23 5:39:03 PM  
2 votes:

cwheelie: what next? no calling chicks "babe"?


It ain't me (you're looking for).
 
2020-07-23 5:36:15 PM  
2 votes:

whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?


I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.
 
2020-07-23 5:17:05 PM  
2 votes:

patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?


Not to Whidbey they don't, not for any amount.
 
2020-07-23 5:13:09 PM  
2 votes:

AmbassadorBooze: stray_capts: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.

I am actively writing to my government weasels to have universal standards in the government.  If I get my way, you will all be nameless and faceless.  You won't need makeup, since you should all have identity obscuring masks on anyways.  The government doesn't need your gender or sexuality or any other personal info about you.  You should be doing your job as a drone, and nothing else.  Then you clock out, go home and be an individual there.  Problem solved.


I agree.  Either dresses, skirts and open toed shoes (strappy sandals) are okay or they aren't.  Why does anybody care?
 
2020-07-23 5:00:03 PM  
2 votes:
Who wants to look at some Uggo every day on a zoom meeting?  Ewwww... put on some damn makeup!
 
2020-07-23 4:54:40 PM  
2 votes:

Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.


Or ask all the employees to wear makeup, a suit and tie, and to shave their faces.  Yes even the old ladies with a mustache.  If it is universal, it isn't wrong.
 
2020-07-23 4:46:37 PM  
2 votes:
No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.
 
2020-07-23 4:43:47 PM  
2 votes:
Also, unless actually seeing a face is VITAL to the job, all employee units should be given a Unique identification string and a face mask that makes them faceless drones.  No gender, no name, no personal histories, items of flare.  Just working towards the goal of the company until the time to clock out.  If unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is working on the project and Unit 12546666666589 needs information about the project, they just dial up  unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 on their company comm device, exchange the info, and then disconnect.  No gender needed.  No face needed.  Hell, it may have been that unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 was replaced with a robot last year.  Unless the information exchange REQUIRES meat, why would unit 12546666666589 care if BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is meat or not?
 
2020-07-23 4:41:27 PM  
2 votes:
Depends on the context.

If you are customer facing, even online, then yes, men are shaved, everyone is dressed professionally (for the context), and yes, that usually means the women look presentable too, whether or not that in ludes makeup is up to them.

If it is strictly internal, fark the make up, and fark any condition that the men need to shave.
 
2020-07-23 4:36:51 PM  
2 votes:
Yes it's sexist. Though I also think it's sexist that people ask me when I'm going to start shaving again. It's like, dude, my balls are my business.
 
2020-07-23 4:33:53 PM  
2 votes:
I understand the impulse to call this sexist, since its a double standard based on sex, but I'm not sure that's actually reasonable.  It seems to me this is more of a trap women have caught themselves up in.

Because women in professional settings wear make-up as the norm, they have established that as the norm.  So when they don't wear make-up, they look different and worse, and it's weird and off-putting.  Unprofessional.  But it's not anyone's fault that women have perpetuated these norms except the women who perpetuate these norms. Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth was published 30 years ago.  An entire generation of women have grown up since then, but make-up is still going strong.
 
2020-07-23 4:17:02 PM  
2 votes:
No and no.
 
2020-07-23 4:14:22 PM  
2 votes:
Meh, people on Zoom wants me to get a tramp stamp and wear a thong
/I'm a 42 year old dude
 
2020-07-23 4:11:43 PM  
2 votes:

Nina9: Yes.
Next question.

...and would it kill you to smile a little bit more???

 
2020-07-23 4:10:04 PM  
2 votes:
Well, dress for the job.  Go topless. *shrug*
 
2020-07-24 4:58:56 PM  
1 vote:

AmbassadorBooze: This solution will take longer, but if we only allow the ultra beautiful to breed, eventually we won't need makeup.  Problem solved.  Just eliminate uggos.


I misread that as "eliminate juggs" and thought we were going to have to thrown down!
 
2020-07-24 2:41:57 PM  
1 vote:

the money is in the banana stand: Mock26: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no,

If you are not requiring men to wear makeup to present a professional image but require it from the women then that is sexual discrimination.

So requiring men to wear a suit and tie then is sexual discrimination when women are not told to do the same thing?


It could be. It would depend on whether or not female employees have a similar dress code. It is generally accepted that formal business attire does vary between men and women. Requiring men to wear a suit and tie but not women is not sexual discrimination if women are also required to wear business formal attire. But, if you require men to wear suits and ties (formal business) but let women wear jeans and t-shirts (casual), then yeah, that could be construed as sexual discrimination.
 
2020-07-24 1:03:34 PM  
1 vote:
I'm in the tech field, where dress practices have long been much more variable; if there's a standard it's a black t-shirt from some project you worked on, jeans, optional hair in random colors, optional tattoos.

When the Coronavirus hit, a bunch of friends who were not going to get to have their in-person hacker conventions threw together informal video conventions - "I've got a work Zoom account with 2000 seats, con's at noon Saturday, give a 20-minute talk on something technical and a 20-minute talk on something non-technical." (Yes, that was Leslie's con.)  Non-technical was often cooking or mixing cocktails or something artsy.

A number of the talks were on "how to do makeup and lighting for video calls".  The makeup presentations were often from women who have bright colored hair and like to do more dramatic eye shadow, but it was people aware that a typical laptop camera does not make you look good, and you've probably got it in a room where the lighting isn't the best, and also it's more likely to be pointed up at your chin which is seldom a good look for anybody.

At $DAYJOB, our corporate standard for years has been audio calls with whiteboards for the stuff we're working on, with occasional video presentations from execs who have professional camera crews, lighting, and probably TV-quality makeup.  It's become a bit more common to have desktop video, at least for the execs who are now recording from home.
 
2020-07-24 12:34:17 PM  
1 vote:

Kit Fister: Yo, Dewey Fidalgo, I just wanted to apologize to you again for my being an ass in that other thread. Thanks for setting me straight.


Thank you.   Take care of yourself.  :)
 
2020-07-24 12:18:59 PM  
1 vote:

the money is in the banana stand: orbister: And failure to wear makeup is looking like a slob?

I specifically did not say that. You chose to selectively edit my post. Not all women look the same without makeup. When some do not wear makeup, they have the appearance of being disheveled. You might not like the truth, but that's it.


I have never, ever seen a woman look dishevelled simply because she was not wearing makeup. You come across as very judgemental about women's appearance.
 
2020-07-24 11:52:30 AM  
1 vote:
Yo, Dewey Fidalgo, I just wanted to apologize to you again for my being an ass in that other thread. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
2020-07-24 11:37:31 AM  
1 vote:

the money is in the banana stand: Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.

Look, the same goes true for men. In most professions, "looking professional" means dressing well, grooming yourself, taking care of yourself, and looking attractive. Men or women, it does not matter. People want to naturally do business with attractive people and trust them more. Just human nature. Might not like it, but it is the truth. There are different standards for beauty and what constitutes being attractive and looking professional for men or women, get over it.


You know, a man can buy a suit and a tie and wear it over and over.  Women have to spend a fark ton of money on make-up over the course of their professional lives.   Of course, they could buy the cheap stuff from the Dollar Store, but that comes with inherent health risks.   That tasteful tie can last years.  Foundation, eye shadow, mascara, lipstick adds up.  And the make-up if not used up, also has a shelf-life, also for health reasons. That doesn't even begin to get into hair products and cuts.   On top of having to purchase whatever clothing is the female version of the suit and tie.   Oh yeah, nails, too.
 
2020-07-24 11:29:12 AM  
1 vote:

Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.


Look, the same goes true for men. In most professions, "looking professional" means dressing well, grooming yourself, taking care of yourself, and looking attractive. Men or women, it does not matter. People want to naturally do business with attractive people and trust them more. Just human nature. Might not like it, but it is the truth. There are different standards for beauty and what constitutes being attractive and looking professional for men or women, get over it.
 
2020-07-24 6:35:37 AM  
1 vote:

StandsWithAFist: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

I'll agree with the caveat that the request be as gender neutral and as common sense as possible.

We've had similar discussions at my workplace, and the consensus boiled down to this: if it's a zoom meeting with a client, do us proud & be presentable. If it's a zoom meeting with coworkers, have basic personal hygiene.

Also, this:
[Fark user image image 425x245]


Yeah, if you always wear make-up and then show up without, you'll look paler and 'glossier'. If I showed up at work looking paler and with some shine to the face I usually don't have, people will ask me if I'm sick as well.
 
2020-07-24 5:23:29 AM  
1 vote:

luna1580: Kit Fister: luna1580: someone who believes i cannot fulfill my work obligations without putting on lipstick and mascara (unless my career is "make up model") is probably so deeply sexist they don't even realize it's a sexist thing to believe.

if a face of makeup magically turned a human into a better lawyer, or teacher, or investor, or executive, or chemist, or psychiatrist, or whatever, men's makeup lines would have dominated products marketed to women long ago.

asking women, and only women, to "look pretty for the camera" at a virtual (or physical) work meeting is sexist as f*ck.

I regret I cannot gift you with a year of TF. Where should o send the $50 instead?

thank you! if you're serious:

Center for Biological Diversity


done. $150 donation made.
 
2020-07-24 5:10:25 AM  
1 vote:
Hypnotic Harlequin:

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.

There's no reason to take it that far though.  If women enjoy it let them wear it, and for those who don't let them forego the hassle of putting it on.  As more decide that they like the convenience of ignoring it more than they like the visual appeal it gives them it will gradually become less popular, or nothing will change, but either way it shouldn't have any bearing on their "professionalism".
 
2020-07-24 3:25:36 AM  
1 vote:

the money is in the banana stand: Take that to a court room or virtually any sales position and you just won't be taken seriously if you look like a slob.


And failure to wear makeup is looking like a slob?
 
2020-07-24 3:23:52 AM  
1 vote:

the money is in the banana stand: orbister: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

What's "professional" about wearing make-up?

Like it or not, it is only human for us to make judgements based on someone's appearance.


That's dodging the question. Why it makeup so important to a woman's appearance?
 
2020-07-24 3:08:56 AM  
1 vote:

orbister: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

What's "professional" about wearing make-up?


Like it or not, it is only human for us to make judgements based on someone's appearance. If you look like you DGAF, you are going to be treated that way. Some women can  pull it off and actually look better without make-up, some overdo it and and it makes them look worse, and some look sickly and frail unless they put on some make-up (sorry just the truth). In some industries, it does not matter, but your appearance is taken into account in most and will be judged. You end up being a reflection on the company as well. It is hard to have a vague policy like "Dress professionally" when people take that to mean different things entirely.
 
2020-07-24 3:01:32 AM  
1 vote:

Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up.

Your opinion about their physical attractiveness without make-up isn't relevant to the issue of their professional appearance.


This seems relevant to drop at the moment. 

Dustin Hoffman on the limitations of make up: 

Dustin Hoffman on TOOTSIE and his character Dorothy Michaels
Youtube xPAat-T1uhE
 
2020-07-24 12:06:57 AM  
1 vote:
Duh? Like fark, I can't remember the last time anyone asked me to put on makeup at work. Also can't remember anyone commenting on whether my hair's up or down, how cute my new shirt looks, or told me to go blow the boss for a pay raise.

I mean, good chance that's either because I'm a guy, or I don't work with enough total scumbags. Hopefully both.
 
2020-07-23 11:01:33 PM  
1 vote:

Peki: austerity101: It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.

*raises hand* 

Had to get a doctor's note to clear a dress code problem with HR over me refusing to wear a bra.

I surprised AF that a doc in the middle of rural Arkansas was willing to do it for me. Had a much harder time clearing the (female) nurses. They wanted to send me through CT, MRI, xray, long-term pain management, etc. Doc listened to my petition and said, "Seems reasonable to me," and signed the note, no tests ordered.

/still have the note so I can hand it over to other companies
//only been asked for it by one other company


Cool!  I just figured there'd be more punks and alt-culture types around here used to getting into frictions with laws and rules.  Most of the punks and whatnot I used to roll with were intimately familiar with dress codes and how to skirt or challenge them.  I'm surprised that there isn't more of that type of reputation in this thread, is all.
 
2020-07-23 10:49:22 PM  
1 vote:

Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.


We were asked to at my office....I'd rather not talk about it.
 
2020-07-23 10:14:41 PM  
1 vote:

meanmutton: In the US if they explicitly fire you due to sexism you can sue them. This is Federal law and there are similar laws in every state.


Difficulty: senate packing the courts with hyper-conservative judges.
 
2020-07-23 10:09:33 PM  
1 vote:

Gordon Bennett: AmbassadorBooze: Also, unless actually seeing a face is VITAL to the job, all employee units should be given a Unique identification string and a face mask that makes them faceless drones.  No gender, no name, no personal histories, items of flare.  Just working towards the goal of the company until the time to clock out.  If unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is working on the project and Unit 12546666666589 needs information about the project, they just dial up  unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 on their company comm device, exchange the info, and then disconnect.  No gender needed.  No face needed.  Hell, it may have been that unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 was replaced with a robot last year.  Unless the information exchange REQUIRES meat, why would unit 12546666666589 care if BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is meat or not?

I want to believe that you typed out that entire post in full without using copy and paste at any point.


(Adjusts taped together glasses)
In the later Star Trek 24th century crossover books, the Breen were established as doing just this in order to meld their 5 races together. Make everyone the same and no one can be picked on.
 
2020-07-23 9:48:35 PM  
1 vote:
One mans thoughts after four months of daily video meetings.

My practice area has a meeting every day. The dress code, just about anything goes. Generally I will wear a dress shirt or a nice after work shirt.  Occasionally I will dress down or wear a suit, but I still put thought into it.  I'm the best dressed person, but that's just me, I like playing dress up. Getting dressed up for a daily meeting doesn't work for everyone, and I don't expect it from the others in my practice area.

If I am running an office meeting, dress shirt, sport coat and pocket square.  I don't expect the others to be dressed up, but if there are other presenters, I think they should not look like they just got out of bed.

I have a meeting tomorrow with people in the court system. I will be wearing a suit.  For a lawyer, a certain level of dress is required in certain situations.

/every outfit does include pants
 
2020-07-23 9:27:52 PM  
1 vote:

7th Son of a 7th Son: Sexist? Yes
Illegal? Probably not. You can refuse. You can also get fired for refusing. Gotta love at-will employment.


In the US if they explicitly fire you due to sexism you can sue them. This is Federal law and there are similar laws in every state.
 
2020-07-23 9:24:47 PM  
1 vote:

RussianPotato: Normally I'd say yes.  Because I was taught that treating someone different due to an immutable characteristic from birth over which they have no control is wrong.  But thankfully I became woke, anti-racist, and anti-sexist.  So NOW the only proper thing is to treat men and women differently, as well as people of different races.  Because that's what a good liberal does.


Cool, so now you understand about treating people with respect.  So what's your point?
 
2020-07-23 8:45:50 PM  
1 vote:

Ringshadow: I have never worn makeup.

If you asked me to wear makeup, and probably utterly destroy my skin in the process. I'm going full tilt clown. Pennywise, Bozo? Maybe Deulla Dent?


Coming from you, that's amazing.  Put on a full body hazmat suit and dive into the greasy depths of the pipe runs of a power plant?  Can do.  Maybelline?  Maybe go fark yourself.
 
2020-07-23 8:28:45 PM  
1 vote:
I literally have not shaved or cut my hair since the pandemic lockdown began. I'd be inclined to professionally tell my superiors to fark off if they asked me to shave.

I can sympathize with women who are being told they need to wear makeup.

It's a job, not a modeling gig.
 
2020-07-23 7:46:09 PM  
1 vote:
Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Almost certainly depends on the jurisdiction. Dunno if it's ever been legislated or tested in Canada, but I'm 99% sure I know how our Supreme Court would rule on the matter.
 
2020-07-23 7:39:38 PM  
1 vote:
FARK - WTF? This many posts and not one Homer's make-up gun dot jpeg yet?

I put on that stuff and I feel how Marge looks.
 
2020-07-23 7:30:37 PM  
1 vote:

waxbeans: Be calm and Carry on can EABOSCD.


Ever After Be Originally Super and Chronically Dead?


Legalize drugs, ppl, if u want every one so damn Fu*king calm.
😠


What about meditation?
 
2020-07-23 7:19:42 PM  
1 vote:

Daedalus27: If we are going to battle out of date sexist work policies, can we please get rid of the tie (which almost exclusively is inflicted on men). It serves no purpose other than having a convenient noose available to anyone interested.


I'll go with the tie should be optional. Same with makeup. I actually really like ties. But go ahead and try to find a properly fitting business suit shirt that will accommodate the boobs of a porn star and NOT end up looking like a server at a high-end restaurant.

I like them because it's an acceptable place to express personality and creativity. You can start a lot of really good business conversations over a good tie.

/my dad was a stereotypical middle manager from the 1980s
 
2020-07-23 7:11:24 PM  
1 vote:

khatores: NotThatGuyAgain: [sunbeamwhdh.files.wordpress.com image 775x436]
Is thisa what y'all want?

/Mugshot from a different greenlighted article

That was a missed opportunity for the headline "Chihuahua steals mop".


While this discourse would be inappropriate at any time, it's especially harmful during periods of high anxiety.

"There were some meetings where I didn't even turn on my web camera because I'd been crying, and I didn't want people to see my red, puffy face."

I don't think women should have to wear makeup in any situation unless they want to.

As for the high levels of anxiety right now, things suck but unfortunately it might be something that most or all of us just have to learn to get used to handling. Climate change, greater conflict with China, rising levels of inequality and COVID-19 as well as other diseases probably aren't going away anytime soon.

With so many other factors outside of one's control, anxiety is actually the one thing most people can control. Stop using Facebook/Twitter/etc and focus on doing something productive.


Be calm and Carry on can EABOSCD.
Legalize drugs, ppl, if u want every one so damn Fu*king calm.
😠
 
2020-07-23 7:04:32 PM  
1 vote:

NotThatGuyAgain: [sunbeamwhdh.files.wordpress.com image 775x436]
Is thisa what y'all want?

/Mugshot from a different greenlighted article


That was a missed opportunity for the headline "Chihuahua steals mop".


While this discourse would be inappropriate at any time, it's especially harmful during periods of high anxiety.

"There were some meetings where I didn't even turn on my web camera because I'd been crying, and I didn't want people to see my red, puffy face."


I don't think women should have to wear makeup in any situation unless they want to.

As for the high levels of anxiety right now, things suck but unfortunately it might be something that most or all of us just have to learn to get used to handling. Climate change, greater conflict with China, rising levels of inequality and COVID-19 as well as other diseases probably aren't going away anytime soon.

With so many other factors outside of one's control, anxiety is actually the one thing most people can control. Stop using Facebook/Twitter/etc and focus on doing something productive.
 
2020-07-23 6:32:33 PM  
1 vote:

Magnanimous_J: UNC_Samurai: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?

Some women can look put together without makeup. A lot of them look like Winston Churchill in a wig.


Oh, did Winston Churchill put on makeup before every meeting then? That makes me like him better tbh
 
2020-07-23 6:21:46 PM  
1 vote:

patowen: whidbey: patowen: 

See bolded part.   That means you're not.

Dude.  I don't like capitalism.  I'm being cynical here.  Work with me.

Is this what long ferry lines, windstorms and jet noise do to you?  Maybe you should try Orcas.


You have a point about the jet noise.   God I hate those farkers.
 
2020-07-23 6:20:20 PM  
1 vote:

ByOwlLight: The amount of people in this thread who think that wearing make-up is a requirement for women to "look professional" while not also applying that standard to men is just wild.

That line of thinking is sexist, even if it's just subconscious and even if you're big on feminism. That's how deeply pervasive this shiat is in our society. You're exhibiting a taught bias. And that's okay! This learned crap runs deep. Just recognize that it is a bias and work to check yourself in the future.


This.
 
2020-07-23 6:15:38 PM  
1 vote:

Devolving_Spud: It's sexist.  The women should follow the letter of the policy, and apply Groucho Marx style eyebrows and mustache.   "There.  Policy followed.  Are there any questions?  Would we like to maybe rethink this policy, or shall we attend the next zoom meeting as Pennywise?"


I was thinking more along the lines of KISS or IT.
 
2020-07-23 6:10:27 PM  
1 vote:
Sexist? Yes
Illegal? Probably not. You can refuse. You can also get fired for refusing. Gotta love at-will employment.
 
2020-07-23 5:57:05 PM  
1 vote:

Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?

Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

It has never affected my ability to do anything in my life. This might shock you, but makeup doesn't suddenly give someone a skill set (beyond the ability to do makeup). It doesn't improve your ability to work.

In my case, it would directly damage me. I have FOUR diagnosed skin conditions. I have to use specialty face cleaners and I'm on a small battery of medication, topical and oral, to try to control my skin.

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.



you are completely misreading what I wrote. I didn't say makeup gives someone a skill or ability; quite the contrary.  I did however say it (and shaving/suit/tie) are entrenched standards of visual perception concerning professionalism in many fields.
And you also are apparently oblivious to the medical issues some , particularly those of certain racial backgrounds have with regular facial shaving.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudof​o​lliculitis_barbae  neither shaving nor makeup is "natural" and come with time, $, and possible health or psychological costs to those who either choose, or are required to do it.    If it's good for the gander...     Now, with that said, there are some jobs where literally having facial hair might impede the ability to do work (wearing a chemical exposure mask, for example).  But we're speaking very generally here.
 
2020-07-23 5:56:19 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.

See bolded part.   That means you're not.


dumb.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 5:51:56 PM  
1 vote:

angryjd: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

Do you think that you would win in court? If not, then the answer is no.


Ask Price Waterhouse.
 
2020-07-23 5:38:29 PM  
1 vote:

8tReAsUrEz: Is asking women to wear make-up for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal? Hell yeah. The cosmetics industry should be reconverted into medical equipment/substances.


During the way Revlon and other lipstick makers repurposed their equipment to make bullets. Be careful what you are for. just saying.
 
2020-07-23 5:38:20 PM  
1 vote:

patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.


Good lord, don't feed Whidbey logic.
 
2020-07-23 5:26:36 PM  
1 vote:
I've never done this before but...

brigid_fitch: If anyone asks me to do my hair (I just throw it in a ponytail) or wear makeup, I will personally drive to their house and cover them in spray tan.  "There, farkwad!  How do YOU like wearing a coating of stuff all day just for 1 stupid conference call where you're all on your phones anyway??"


username checks out.  :p

/in agreement with you though
 
2020-07-23 5:24:30 PM  
1 vote:

cwheelie: what next? no calling chicks "babe"?


Broads hate that.
 
2020-07-23 5:22:08 PM  
1 vote:

Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

Makeup has literally nothing to do with that.


how is it any different than shaving your facial hair   (male) ?
 
2020-07-23 5:19:20 PM  
1 vote:
what next? no calling chicks "babe"?
 
2020-07-23 5:01:42 PM  
1 vote:

SirMadness: AmbassadorBooze: Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.

You almost got to the solution.  Make the men wear make up too.  Problem solved.

As you insist:
[byrdie.com image 650x683]


The future will be glorious.
 
2020-07-23 5:01:08 PM  
1 vote:

RodneyToady: I don't know if it is or isn't legal (probably depends on what country or state/province you're in), but I think it is sexist and should be illegal.


Illegal, or not, it's incredibly stupid.

I don't give a fark if she's wearing makeup, I only care if she can do the assigned work.

/exceptions for models and others who do put on makeup for a living
 
2020-07-23 4:57:36 PM  
1 vote:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 4:57:24 PM  
1 vote:

stray_capts: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.


I am actively writing to my government weasels to have universal standards in the government.  If I get my way, you will all be nameless and faceless.  You won't need makeup, since you should all have identity obscuring masks on anyways.  The government doesn't need your gender or sexuality or any other personal info about you.  You should be doing your job as a drone, and nothing else.  Then you clock out, go home and be an individual there.  Problem solved.
 
2020-07-23 4:55:05 PM  
1 vote:

Boo_Guy: Anyone know what happened to the weirdly small waisted Russian girl thread?

It was nuked from existence before I could read it.

/this post will self destruct in 3,2,1..


Here's the source article.  You're welcome, I guess.

https://englishrussia.com/2020/07/23/​r​ussian-girl-with-the-amazingly-slender​-waist
 
2020-07-23 4:40:55 PM  
1 vote:

angryjd: No and no.


Look forward to your new glam makeup look that I'm sure is coming, sis!
 
2020-07-23 4:34:54 PM  
1 vote:
Why you fapblocking, tho?
 
2020-07-23 4:30:59 PM  
1 vote:
I've never felt comfortable around clowns; being forced to look like a clown can't be better.
 
2020-07-23 4:30:24 PM  
1 vote:

Xai: If ... everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no


That's it. If your employer mandates you show up on stream looking like you do in the office, shave the woolly mammoth beard, floss out last night's dinner and put on the makeup.

Some of the situations in the article seem a little one sided. I can't imagine any policy that wouldn't get utterly shredded by HR if they didn't also mention that men should be well groomed and shaved as well and the article doesn't elaborate.

It sucks that the female side of personal care is considerably more involved than the male side, but that's a systemic issue beyond Zoom meetings.
 
2020-07-23 4:27:58 PM  
1 vote:
Is asking them to do them topless okay?
 
2020-07-23 4:21:59 PM  
1 vote:
I never have my camera on for company Zoom meetings, but my company is super chill, soo...
 
2020-07-23 4:18:22 PM  
1 vote:
Anyone know what happened to the weirdly small waisted Russian girl thread?

It was nuked from existence before I could read it.

/this post will self destruct in 3,2,1..
 
2020-07-23 4:18:17 PM  
1 vote:
Is it sexist? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. I think its okay for companies to tell women to wear make up if they are going to be talking to the public or to people from other businesses.  The company should have the right to present a professional image.  However, if it's just a short Zoom meeting between a few co-workers, they shouldn't require it.
 
2020-07-23 4:14:33 PM  
1 vote:
Just smear a little Vaseline on the lens.
 
2020-07-23 4:13:18 PM  
1 vote:

Derp Du Jour: Nina9: Yes.
Next question.

...and would it kill you to smile a little bit more???


*tiny fist*
 
2020-07-23 4:12:41 PM  
1 vote:
Yes, it's sexist.

They should smile more, though.
 
hej
2020-07-23 4:10:08 PM  
1 vote:
Yes, and possibly.
 
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