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(Refinery29)   Is asking women to wear makeup for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal?   (refinery29.com) divider line
    More: Survey, Discrimination, Gender, Sexism, Woman, Sexual harassment, woman's right, Female, Sex  
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3530 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2020 at 4:05 PM (19 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



269 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-07-24 8:53:26 AM  

Ringshadow: Kit Fister: you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.

I have rosacea 1 2 and 4, adult acne, contact dermatitis and psoriasis.

Oh, and by the way, I can't even work if I have any open wounds. So if I break out badly or violently react to something... like, say, makeup... guess what?

Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

/my dermatologists, all to a single one, have breathed sighs of relief when I say I don't wear makeup
//fun fact, women have the same problems when they shave dude, just not on their face. yeah.


Since I realized after the fact that I didn't make it clear...

I can empathize with your situation because of my skin issues. I also disagree with demanding women wear makeup since cosmetics and appearance have nothing to do with performance.  I would argue that, depending on the makeup and the environment, makeup might also pose a hazard as the chemicals could react with something as well, but that's more of a theory than anything.

I generally also disagree with forcing men to shave unless there's a specific reason for it, like what you pointed out.  Forcing it for no good reason is just stupid and for those of us with skin issues, it causes a serious problem.

As an aside, if I worked somewhere that I routinely had to wear a mask, I'd probably buy myself one of those hazmat suits like you see in outbreak movies that has a full helmet/hood. Can't have safety concerns about a beard if you're wearing a full body condom. :D
 
2020-07-24 11:24:37 AM  

orbister: the money is in the banana stand: Take that to a court room or virtually any sales position and you just won't be taken seriously if you look like a slob.

And failure to wear makeup is looking like a slob?


I specifically did not say that. You chose to selectively edit my post. Not all women look the same without makeup. When some do not wear makeup, they have the appearance of being disheveled. You might not like the truth, but that's it.
 
2020-07-24 11:29:12 AM  

Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.


Look, the same goes true for men. In most professions, "looking professional" means dressing well, grooming yourself, taking care of yourself, and looking attractive. Men or women, it does not matter. People want to naturally do business with attractive people and trust them more. Just human nature. Might not like it, but it is the truth. There are different standards for beauty and what constitutes being attractive and looking professional for men or women, get over it.
 
2020-07-24 11:37:31 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.

Look, the same goes true for men. In most professions, "looking professional" means dressing well, grooming yourself, taking care of yourself, and looking attractive. Men or women, it does not matter. People want to naturally do business with attractive people and trust them more. Just human nature. Might not like it, but it is the truth. There are different standards for beauty and what constitutes being attractive and looking professional for men or women, get over it.


You know, a man can buy a suit and a tie and wear it over and over.  Women have to spend a fark ton of money on make-up over the course of their professional lives.   Of course, they could buy the cheap stuff from the Dollar Store, but that comes with inherent health risks.   That tasteful tie can last years.  Foundation, eye shadow, mascara, lipstick adds up.  And the make-up if not used up, also has a shelf-life, also for health reasons. That doesn't even begin to get into hair products and cuts.   On top of having to purchase whatever clothing is the female version of the suit and tie.   Oh yeah, nails, too.
 
2020-07-24 11:52:30 AM  
Yo, Dewey Fidalgo, I just wanted to apologize to you again for my being an ass in that other thread. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
2020-07-24 11:56:48 AM  
the money is in the banana stand:

Look, the same goes true for men.

The same is not true for men.  They are judged on whether they get the job done, not whether they look like Brad Pitt auditioning for Troy.
 
2020-07-24 12:18:59 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: orbister: And failure to wear makeup is looking like a slob?

I specifically did not say that. You chose to selectively edit my post. Not all women look the same without makeup. When some do not wear makeup, they have the appearance of being disheveled. You might not like the truth, but that's it.


I have never, ever seen a woman look dishevelled simply because she was not wearing makeup. You come across as very judgemental about women's appearance.
 
2020-07-24 12:34:17 PM  

Kit Fister: Yo, Dewey Fidalgo, I just wanted to apologize to you again for my being an ass in that other thread. Thanks for setting me straight.


Thank you.   Take care of yourself.  :)
 
2020-07-24 12:43:51 PM  
We don't need to see your face or the room you're sitting in in order to hear what you're saying.
Anything we all need to see is already in your computer.  Share your screen if you want to talk about a document or a schematic.


In the meetings I attend, I've found that the folks that insist on showing their face in meetings are the same folks I've already identified as narcissists.  Your camera contributes nothing beyond "look at me!".
 
2020-07-24 1:03:34 PM  
I'm in the tech field, where dress practices have long been much more variable; if there's a standard it's a black t-shirt from some project you worked on, jeans, optional hair in random colors, optional tattoos.

When the Coronavirus hit, a bunch of friends who were not going to get to have their in-person hacker conventions threw together informal video conventions - "I've got a work Zoom account with 2000 seats, con's at noon Saturday, give a 20-minute talk on something technical and a 20-minute talk on something non-technical." (Yes, that was Leslie's con.)  Non-technical was often cooking or mixing cocktails or something artsy.

A number of the talks were on "how to do makeup and lighting for video calls".  The makeup presentations were often from women who have bright colored hair and like to do more dramatic eye shadow, but it was people aware that a typical laptop camera does not make you look good, and you've probably got it in a room where the lighting isn't the best, and also it's more likely to be pointed up at your chin which is seldom a good look for anybody.

At $DAYJOB, our corporate standard for years has been audio calls with whiteboards for the stuff we're working on, with occasional video presentations from execs who have professional camera crews, lighting, and probably TV-quality makeup.  It's become a bit more common to have desktop video, at least for the execs who are now recording from home.
 
2020-07-24 2:03:26 PM  

karlandtanya: We don't need to see your face or the room you're sitting in in order to hear what you're saying.
Anything we all need to see is already in your computer.  Share your screen if you want to talk about a document or a schematic.


In the meetings I attend, I've found that the folks that insist on showing their face in meetings are the same folks I've already identified as narcissists.  Your camera contributes nothing beyond "look at me!".


Yeah, everyone knows "non-verbal communication" was invented in the 80s when some consultants needed some new fake training to make money.
 
2020-07-24 2:41:57 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: Mock26: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no,

If you are not requiring men to wear makeup to present a professional image but require it from the women then that is sexual discrimination.

So requiring men to wear a suit and tie then is sexual discrimination when women are not told to do the same thing?


It could be. It would depend on whether or not female employees have a similar dress code. It is generally accepted that formal business attire does vary between men and women. Requiring men to wear a suit and tie but not women is not sexual discrimination if women are also required to wear business formal attire. But, if you require men to wear suits and ties (formal business) but let women wear jeans and t-shirts (casual), then yeah, that could be construed as sexual discrimination.
 
2020-07-24 3:24:55 PM  

DerAppie: karlandtanya: We don't need to see your face or the room you're sitting in in order to hear what you're saying.
Anything we all need to see is already in your computer.  Share your screen if you want to talk about a document or a schematic.


In the meetings I attend, I've found that the folks that insist on showing their face in meetings are the same folks I've already identified as narcissists.  Your camera contributes nothing beyond "look at me!".

Yeah, everyone knows "non-verbal communication" was invented in the 80s when some consultants needed some new fake training to make money.


You're exactly correct.  I can tell without having to look at you that you're being sarcastic and you think you're clever and insightful.
 
2020-07-24 3:29:48 PM  
This solution will take longer, but if we only allow the ultra beautiful to breed, eventually we won't need makeup.  Problem solved.  Just eliminate uggos.
 
2020-07-24 4:58:56 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: This solution will take longer, but if we only allow the ultra beautiful to breed, eventually we won't need makeup.  Problem solved.  Just eliminate uggos.


I misread that as "eliminate juggs" and thought we were going to have to thrown down!
 
2020-07-24 8:38:59 PM  

karlandtanya: We don't need to see your face or the room you're sitting in in order to hear what you're saying.
Anything we all need to see is already in your computer.  Share your screen if you want to talk about a document or a schematic.


In the meetings I attend, I've found that the folks that insist on showing their face in meetings are the same folks I've already identified as narcissists.  Your camera contributes nothing beyond "look at me!".


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-25 12:51:26 AM  

angryjd: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

Do you think that you would win in court? If not, then the answer is no.


If your ethics are based on if you can win in court, they might be a bit askew.

This sounds like an "if I can get away with it, it must be morally acceptable" attitude.
 
2020-07-25 1:05:07 AM  

AmbassadorBooze: This solution will take longer, but if we only allow the ultra beautiful to breed, eventually we won't need makeup.  Problem solved.  Just eliminate uggos.


Thanks for taking one for the team!
 
2020-07-25 2:07:56 AM  

Excelsior: AmbassadorBooze: This solution will take longer, but if we only allow the ultra beautiful to breed, eventually we won't need makeup.  Problem solved.  Just eliminate uggos.

Thanks for taking one for the team!


Way ahead of you.  I have a commitment to not breed.  But can we get the other uggos and undesireables to not bump uggolies?
 
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