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(Refinery29)   Is asking women to wear makeup for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal?   (refinery29.com) divider line
    More: Survey, Discrimination, Gender, Sexism, Woman, Sexual harassment, woman's right, Female, Sex  
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3587 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2020 at 4:05 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-23 9:19:17 PM  

waxbeans: khatores: waxbeans: Be calm and Carry on can EABOSCD.

Ever After Be Originally Super and Chronically Dead?


Legalize drugs, ppl, if u want every one so damn Fu*king calm.
😠

What about meditation?

What about blow job?
🙄


That works too.
 
2020-07-23 9:21:01 PM  

Kit Fister: luna1580: someone who believes i cannot fulfill my work obligations without putting on lipstick and mascara (unless my career is "make up model") is probably so deeply sexist they don't even realize it's a sexist thing to believe.

if a face of makeup magically turned a human into a better lawyer, or teacher, or investor, or executive, or chemist, or psychiatrist, or whatever, men's makeup lines would have dominated products marketed to women long ago.

asking women, and only women, to "look pretty for the camera" at a virtual (or physical) work meeting is sexist as f*ck.

I regret I cannot gift you with a year of TF. Where should o send the $50 instead?


thank you! if you're serious:

Center for Biological Diversity
 
2020-07-23 9:24:47 PM  

RussianPotato: Normally I'd say yes.  Because I was taught that treating someone different due to an immutable characteristic from birth over which they have no control is wrong.  But thankfully I became woke, anti-racist, and anti-sexist.  So NOW the only proper thing is to treat men and women differently, as well as people of different races.  Because that's what a good liberal does.


Cool, so now you understand about treating people with respect.  So what's your point?
 
2020-07-23 9:27:52 PM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: Sexist? Yes
Illegal? Probably not. You can refuse. You can also get fired for refusing. Gotta love at-will employment.


In the US if they explicitly fire you due to sexism you can sue them. This is Federal law and there are similar laws in every state.
 
2020-07-23 9:33:37 PM  
It's definitely sexist and probably illegal, unless you're asking the guys to put it on too.
 
2020-07-23 9:37:41 PM  

Stands With A Tiny Fist: Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Almost certainly depends on the jurisdiction. Dunno if it's ever been legislated or tested in Canada, but I'm 99% sure I know how our Supreme Court would rule on the matter.


I'm 100% certain that the Supreme Court that just ruled that sex discrimination laws cover transgender folks would also rule that sex discrimination laws cover cisgender folks.
 
2020-07-23 9:48:35 PM  
One mans thoughts after four months of daily video meetings.

My practice area has a meeting every day. The dress code, just about anything goes. Generally I will wear a dress shirt or a nice after work shirt.  Occasionally I will dress down or wear a suit, but I still put thought into it.  I'm the best dressed person, but that's just me, I like playing dress up. Getting dressed up for a daily meeting doesn't work for everyone, and I don't expect it from the others in my practice area.

If I am running an office meeting, dress shirt, sport coat and pocket square.  I don't expect the others to be dressed up, but if there are other presenters, I think they should not look like they just got out of bed.

I have a meeting tomorrow with people in the court system. I will be wearing a suit.  For a lawyer, a certain level of dress is required in certain situations.

/every outfit does include pants
 
2020-07-23 9:54:43 PM  
If the dress code at work is applicable to zoom meetings sure.
Or
Just ask how they feel and tell them they look really tired.
 
2020-07-23 10:00:21 PM  
I have the opposite problem: convincing my wife that she doesn't need to be dressed to the nines, with perfect hair, makeup and lighting for Zooms, because nobody else is going to be.

Difficulty: she produces and hosts TV shows, and when the studio was closed during the curve-flattening period, she had a pro camera and three Ikan stand lights at home for shooting material.  Thankfully she's now taken everything back and is just using a single Smith-Victor stand light plus our usual household lamps.
 
2020-07-23 10:09:33 PM  

Gordon Bennett: AmbassadorBooze: Also, unless actually seeing a face is VITAL to the job, all employee units should be given a Unique identification string and a face mask that makes them faceless drones.  No gender, no name, no personal histories, items of flare.  Just working towards the goal of the company until the time to clock out.  If unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is working on the project and Unit 12546666666589 needs information about the project, they just dial up  unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 on their company comm device, exchange the info, and then disconnect.  No gender needed.  No face needed.  Hell, it may have been that unit BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 was replaced with a robot last year.  Unless the information exchange REQUIRES meat, why would unit 12546666666589 care if BSzUfCtL4Lh73rFEfn9be6j4 is meat or not?

I want to believe that you typed out that entire post in full without using copy and paste at any point.


(Adjusts taped together glasses)
In the later Star Trek 24th century crossover books, the Breen were established as doing just this in order to meld their 5 races together. Make everyone the same and no one can be picked on.
 
2020-07-23 10:09:52 PM  

trialpha: If there are any standards pertaining to beards, ie. "must be neat and trim", those standards are thus sexist, since they apply only to men.


Not quite. There's nothing in there about who's allowed (or not allowed) to wear a beard, just that if you wear one, it be neat and trim. If Barb from Accounting wants to wear a beard, and can grow one, it's all good. Just so long as it's neat and trim.
 
2020-07-23 10:12:09 PM  

meanmutton: Stands With A Tiny Fist: Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Almost certainly depends on the jurisdiction. Dunno if it's ever been legislated or tested in Canada, but I'm 99% sure I know how our Supreme Court would rule on the matter.

I'm 100% certain that the Supreme Court that just ruled that sex discrimination laws cover transgender folks would also rule that sex discrimination laws cover cisgender folks.


That 1% was just me hedging my bets. I've been surprised before, but only rarely by Canada's Supreme Court.
 
2020-07-23 10:14:41 PM  

meanmutton: In the US if they explicitly fire you due to sexism you can sue them. This is Federal law and there are similar laws in every state.


Difficulty: senate packing the courts with hyper-conservative judges.
 
2020-07-23 10:39:01 PM  

Idiot Stick Bearer: Please oh please do this and post a pic


Sadly, I do not own makeup at all and I hesitate to try a Drag King look as heavily tempted as I am. I really, really do not want hives.

Ishidan: Coming from you, that's amazing. Put on a full body hazmat suit and dive into the greasy depths of the pipe runs of a power plant? Can do. Maybelline? Maybe go fark yourself.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never have. Mom tried desperately to get me into it but like, I could barely put in the effort to keep my hair in a ponytail when it was long. Then my skin shiat the bed and we were struggling to even find soap I could use so it fell by the wayside. Turns out I don't really like looking feminine. Which works because I don't really have a gender. And now it's a blessing, less stuff on my face to cause chaos.

Shampoo is the actual worst though. Free and clear shampoos are few and far between and don't actually seem to do their job. I have to use cetaphil baby shampoo because cetaphil cannot be arsed to make an adult shampoo. Adult face wash? Of course! Shampoo, why would they do that? Ugh.

Kit Fister: you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.


I have rosacea 1 2 and 4, adult acne, contact dermatitis and psoriasis.

Oh, and by the way, I can't even work if I have any open wounds. So if I break out badly or violently react to something... like, say, makeup... guess what?

Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

/my dermatologists, all to a single one, have breathed sighs of relief when I say I don't wear makeup
//fun fact, women have the same problems when they shave dude, just not on their face. yeah.
 
2020-07-23 10:42:14 PM  
It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.  That's not a dig--I'm just surprised, because Fark seems like such a motley crew of people who love to find ways to bend and break the rules and stand out from the crowd.

Anyway, dress codes and their legal status is complicated and stupid.  Basically, as the laws stand, you can have separate dress codes for men and women provided thatthe burden of appearance is relatively balanced between the sexes.  So you can make women wear makeup, if you make men shave and use product in their hair.  Women can be made to shave/wear stockings, while men are made to wear suits.  It's all very dumb and affords employers and the law very wide latitude in enforcement.

All because the Supreme Court, in their infinite cowardice, has really, really not wanted to wander into that miasma, because they knew if they did, it would throw our entire society's idea of sex and gender into upheaval, and if nothing else, the Supreme Court is careful to a fault about not wanting to upend society if they can help it.  (It's a shame, because they probably have more power than anyone else to change society, and they by and large refuse to flex that power.)

Now, we did just have a Supreme Court ruling that could potentially turn all of these dress codes on their ear, because we now have even more robust opinions regarding employment and discrimination based on sex, so I'm anticipating that people will start to challenge these codes.  Especially since we've been in lockdown for a while and a lot of people are starting to realize just how stupid and pointless so many of these dress code demands really were.   

One thing that rarely gets dissected properly is just what "professionalism" is--we generally just tautologically define it as "that which looks professional," and employee handbooks are kept deliberately vague on this front in order to keep the power concentrated in the corporation.  But it is a fact that our sense of "professionalism" in appearance is absolutely based in white supremacy, hetero-normativity, and patriarchy--that is, our sense of what is and isn't professional is based on what straight, white, cisgender men like and want to see.

(I'm sure some of you are going, "I'm one of those and I don't like it!", and you're missing the point--I'm talking about society, not you, individually.)

We see this most obviously in the way we police Black women's hair:  most notably, employers love to demand that Black women straighten their hair, which they never require of white women, despite the fact that white women can also have kinky and curly hair.  And relaxed hair is expensive and labor-intensive, not to mention painful--yet we're happy to keep making Black women do it so that they can fit ourmold of what we've decided, as a whites-dominated society, is and is not acceptable.  They are having to alter their bodies because we decided that their bodies, as naturally occurring, are unacceptable in the workplace.  That's really messed up.  

But this goes for everything else, too:  besides being washed and clothed in clean clothes, what makes these things "professional"?  Makeup, jewelry?  Suits?  Ties?  Leather shoes?  Heels?  None of these things are inherently professional or unprofessional--we have simply allowed the dominant culture to decide that they are.  Are dashikis professional?  How about Indian-subcontinent or Middle Eastern garb?  Why or why not?

And I haven't even gotten into the monkey wrench that are gender identity and gender expression, which most people don't realize aren't even the same thing--and it's likely that the Supreme Court ruling is going to allow for these gender lines to be blurred even more, because how can you now disallow a man from doing something you'd allow a woman?  The SC ruling was very clear that you cannot do this.  So will that mean if skirts are allowed, will men get to wear them?  I hope so, because men should have been allowed their own gender expression from the beginning, just like women.  And there are people who are neither men nor women--people who are gender non-conforming, gender-fluid, Two Spirit, et cetera.  And then there are people who are neither male nor female, being intersex (whom we used to call "hermaphrodites," but that word is now considered outmoded and offense, like "transsexual" and "Negro")--what are they supposed to wear, since they don't fit into eithercategory?

The whole thing is stupid.  Makeup is stupid.  "Professionalism" is stupid.  Be clean, be relatively friendly, and get your job done.  That's all that really matters.

Oh, and fark your client's bigotry.  You couldn't fire someone for being Black because your clients are racist assholes, and you shouldn't be able to fire a woman for not wearing makeup just because your clients are a bunch of middle-aged chauvinistic farkwads.  Stop leaning on capitalism to justify your bigotry.
 
2020-07-23 10:49:22 PM  

Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.


We were asked to at my office....I'd rather not talk about it.
 
2020-07-23 10:58:51 PM  

austerity101: It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.


*raises hand* 

Had to get a doctor's note to clear a dress code problem with HR over me refusing to wear a bra.

I surprised AF that a doc in the middle of rural Arkansas was willing to do it for me. Had a much harder time clearing the (female) nurses. They wanted to send me through CT, MRI, xray, long-term pain management, etc. Doc listened to my petition and said, "Seems reasonable to me," and signed the note, no tests ordered.

/still have the note so I can hand it over to other companies
//only been asked for it by one other company
 
2020-07-23 11:01:33 PM  

Peki: austerity101: It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.

*raises hand* 

Had to get a doctor's note to clear a dress code problem with HR over me refusing to wear a bra.

I surprised AF that a doc in the middle of rural Arkansas was willing to do it for me. Had a much harder time clearing the (female) nurses. They wanted to send me through CT, MRI, xray, long-term pain management, etc. Doc listened to my petition and said, "Seems reasonable to me," and signed the note, no tests ordered.

/still have the note so I can hand it over to other companies
//only been asked for it by one other company


Cool!  I just figured there'd be more punks and alt-culture types around here used to getting into frictions with laws and rules.  Most of the punks and whatnot I used to roll with were intimately familiar with dress codes and how to skirt or challenge them.  I'm surprised that there isn't more of that type of reputation in this thread, is all.
 
2020-07-23 11:02:09 PM  
What, no pics of Tammy Faye Baker?
 
2020-07-23 11:52:09 PM  

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


Your first sentence proves it is sexist. Who is determining that women must wear makeup to be "professional"? Why are men not considered "professional" when they wear makeup? The answer is because of tired expectations of what the sexes must do to meet this arbitrary definition of "professional". So, without realizing it you proved that this is definitively sexist.  Either that or you aren't 100% sure what the word sexist means.  Which to be fair a lot of people don't.  Hint: It has nothing to do with feminism.
 
2020-07-24 12:03:07 AM  

UNC_Samurai: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?


Depends on where.  In Oregon or Washington, no.  In NYC, I got the side-eye from several people when I went to an office building and wasn't made up (and didn't when I was).
 
2020-07-24 12:05:09 AM  

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no,


If you are not requiring men to wear makeup to present a professional image but require it from the women then that is sexual discrimination.
 
2020-07-24 12:06:57 AM  
Duh? Like fark, I can't remember the last time anyone asked me to put on makeup at work. Also can't remember anyone commenting on whether my hair's up or down, how cute my new shirt looks, or told me to go blow the boss for a pay raise.

I mean, good chance that's either because I'm a guy, or I don't work with enough total scumbags. Hopefully both.
 
2020-07-24 12:08:12 AM  

Ringshadow: Idiot Stick Bearer: Please oh please do this and post a pic

Sadly, I do not own makeup at all and I hesitate to try a Drag King look as heavily tempted as I am. I really, really do not want hives.

Ishidan: Coming from you, that's amazing. Put on a full body hazmat suit and dive into the greasy depths of the pipe runs of a power plant? Can do. Maybelline? Maybe go fark yourself.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never have. Mom tried desperately to get me into it but like, I could barely put in the effort to keep my hair in a ponytail when it was long. Then my skin shiat the bed and we were struggling to even find soap I could use so it fell by the wayside. Turns out I don't really like looking feminine. Which works because I don't really have a gender. And now it's a blessing, less stuff on my face to cause chaos.

Shampoo is the actual worst though. Free and clear shampoos are few and far between and don't actually seem to do their job. I have to use cetaphil baby shampoo because cetaphil cannot be arsed to make an adult shampoo. Adult face wash? Of course! Shampoo, why would they do that? Ugh.

Kit Fister: you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.

I have rosacea 1 2 and 4, adult acne, contact dermatitis and psoriasis.

Oh, and by the way, I can't even work if I have any open wounds. So if I break out badly or violently react to something... like, say, makeup... guess what?

Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

/my dermatologists, all to a single one, have breathed sighs of relief when I say I don't wear makeup
//fun fact, women have the same prob ...


Ringshadow You be you that is whats important to us here at Fark  We are behind ya ..well not in that way but yeah High 5 and all that..can i still be a Drag Queen ?
 
2020-07-24 12:09:59 AM  
Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

That is my new fetish BTW partial naked female faces...
 
2020-07-24 12:21:24 AM  

cew-smoke: Why are men not considered "professional" when they wear makeup?


Because Beau Brummel thought make-up of the 18th century was foppish and unbenefiting a manly appearance, and made the lack of make-up a signature of the Dandy style.  Because Brummel was good friends with the King of England at the height of British Empire, and the King took all of his fashion advice from Brummel, the Dandy style came to define men's fashion for a century, and still defines male professional fashion, with only one slight alteration.

The Dandy style, according to Brummel, was define by several key characteristics:
* Men do not wear make-up.
* Men wear their hair short and are clean-shaven.
* Men wear trousers, a shirt, a jacket and a neck tie.
* The jacket is a dark color, the shirt is white, and the trousers are white.

2.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size

The long tailed tuxedo is the most direct descendant of this look. By the industrial age, the trousers had become dark as well, and the neck tie was defined as the modern tie, with other forms of neckwear falling out of favor.  Suits became less form fitting and boxier until they become the modern business uniform, eventually evolving into this very 1950s look:

s7d4.scene7.comView Full Size


Women never had a Beau Brummell to come along and declare that make-up was no longer cool, hip or stylish, and by the time women started complaining that make-up was oppressive, there no longer existed celebrities with sufficient cachet to affect women's fashion globally the way Geogre IV could as king of a globe spanning empire.
 
2020-07-24 12:23:24 AM  

Mock26: If I was her coworker I would have popped on over the pharmacy (with mask, of course), and purchased some lipstick and blush and would have applied it before the next meeting with the boss. And, Yes, I am a man. And, No, I would not care if I got in trouble for it.


The sad thing? That would actually probably improve your attractiveness by some degree, even to men, and therefore give your words more weight. (As long as you don't flip over to the Boy George feminine side and end up dismissed.) Unless your group's ideal look is "rugged frontiersman", clean-shaven men with well-applied makeup are routinely perceived as more intelligent and competent than the same person merely shaven.

Humans are wired with a lot of stupid unconscious triggers.
 
2020-07-24 12:27:39 AM  

austerity101: It seems a lot of farkers have never found themselves having to challenge dress codes before.  That's not a dig--I'm just surprised, because Fark seems like such a motley crew of people who love to find ways to bend and break the rules and stand out from the crowd.

Anyway, dress codes and their legal status is complicated and stupid.  Basically, as the laws stand, you can have separate dress codes for men and women provided thatthe burden of appearance is relatively balanced between the sexes.  So you can make women wear makeup, if you make men shave and use product in their hair.  Women can be made to shave/wear stockings, while men are made to wear suits.  It's all very dumb and affords employers and the law very wide latitude in enforcement.

All because the Supreme Court, in their infinite cowardice, has really, really not wanted to wander into that miasma, because they knew if they did, it would throw our entire society's idea of sex and gender into upheaval, and if nothing else, the Supreme Court is careful to a fault about not wanting to upend society if they can help it.  (It's a shame, because they probably have more power than anyone else to change society, and they by and large refuse to flex that power.)

Now, we did just have a Supreme Court ruling that could potentially turn all of these dress codes on their ear, because we now have even more robust opinions regarding employment and discrimination based on sex, so I'm anticipating that people will start to challenge these codes.  Especially since we've been in lockdown for a while and a lot of people are starting to realize just how stupid and pointless so many of these dress code demands really were.   

One thing that rarely gets dissected properly is just what "professionalism" is--we generally just tautologically define it as "that which looks professional," and employee handbooks are kept deliberately vague on this front in order to keep the power concentrated in the corporation.  But it is a fact that our sense of "professionalism" in appearance is absolutely based in white supremacy, hetero-normativity, and patriarchy--that is, our sense of what is and isn't professional is based on what straight, white, cisgender men like and want to see.

(I'm sure some of you are going, "I'm one of those and I don't like it!", and you're missing the point--I'm talking about society, not you, individually.)

We see this most obviously in the way we police Black women's hair:  most notably, employers love to demand that Black women straighten their hair, which they never require of white women, despite the fact that white women can also have kinky and curly hair.  And relaxed hair is expensive and labor-intensive, not to mention painful--yet we're happy to keep making Black women do it so that they can fit ourmold of what we've decided, as a whites-dominated society, is and is not acceptable.  They are having to alter their bodies because we decided that their bodies, as naturally occurring, are unacceptable in the workplace.  That's really messed up.  

But this goes for everything else, too:  besides being washed and clothed in clean clothes, what makes these things "professional"?  Makeup, jewelry?  Suits?  Ties?  Leather shoes?  Heels?  None of these things are inherently professional or unprofessional--we have simply allowed the dominant culture to decide that they are.  Are dashikis professional?  How about Indian-subcontinent or Middle Eastern garb?  Why or why not?

And I haven't even gotten into the monkey wrench that are gender identity and gender expression, which most people don't realize aren't even the same thing--and it's likely that the Supreme Court ruling is going to allow for these gender lines to be blurred even more, because how can you now disallow a man from doing something you'd allow a woman?  The SC ruling was very clear that you cannot do this.  So will that mean if skirts are allowed, will men get to wear them?  I hope so, because men should have been allowed their own gender expression from the beginning, just like women.  And there are people who are neither men nor women--people who are gender non-conforming, gender-fluid, Two Spirit, et cetera.  And then there are people who are neither male nor female, being intersex (whom we used to call "hermaphrodites," but that word is now considered outmoded and offense, like "transsexual" and "Negro")--what are they supposed to wear, since they don't fit into eithercategory?

The whole thing is stupid.  Makeup is stupid.  "Professionalism" is stupid.  Be clean, be relatively friendly, and get your job done.  That's all that really matters.

Oh, and fark your client's bigotry.  You couldn't fire someone for being Black because your clients are racist assholes, and you shouldn't be able to fire a woman for not wearing makeup just because your clients are a bunch of middle-aged chauvinistic farkwads.  Stop leaning on capitalism to justify your bigotry.


This!

Jesus Christ, ppl, what is wrong with you? Slap your selves.
😔
 
2020-07-24 2:48:25 AM  

UNC_Samurai: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

Does a woman have to wear make-up to present a professional image?


Some do honestly which is sad. There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up. Others look great and do not need make up. Askingis also different than requiring. When it comes to how you present yourself at the office, dress code and appearance, it gets pretty tricky and there is always going to be a fine line.
 
2020-07-24 2:53:44 AM  

Mock26: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no,

If you are not requiring men to wear makeup to present a professional image but require it from the women then that is sexual discrimination.


So requiring men to wear a suit and tie then is sexual discrimination when women are not told to do the same thing?
 
2020-07-24 2:53:58 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: Askingis also different than requiring.


So, when was the last time you took your Viagra pills?

I'm just asking.
 
2020-07-24 2:57:12 AM  
the money is in the banana stand:

There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up.

Your opinion about their physical attractiveness without make-up isn't relevant to the issue of their professional appearance.
 
2020-07-24 2:57:34 AM  

BullBearMS: It's definitely sexist and probably illegal, unless you're asking the guys to put it on too.


I find it sexist men do not have equal number of stalls that women do! Actually, I find it sexist there is a female and male bathroom, I mean, we are all equal right!?
 
2020-07-24 2:59:31 AM  

Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.


What's "professional" about wearing make-up?
 
2020-07-24 3:01:32 AM  

Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up.

Your opinion about their physical attractiveness without make-up isn't relevant to the issue of their professional appearance.


This seems relevant to drop at the moment. 

Dustin Hoffman on the limitations of make up: 

Dustin Hoffman on TOOTSIE and his character Dorothy Michaels
Youtube xPAat-T1uhE
 
2020-07-24 3:03:05 AM  

Magnanimous_J: Some women can look put together without makeup. A lot of them look like Winston Churchill in a wig.


Even if that were true, what would it have to do with professionalism? Would you chose a heart surgeon based on how much makeup she wore?
 
2020-07-24 3:08:56 AM  

orbister: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

What's "professional" about wearing make-up?


Like it or not, it is only human for us to make judgements based on someone's appearance. If you look like you DGAF, you are going to be treated that way. Some women can  pull it off and actually look better without make-up, some overdo it and and it makes them look worse, and some look sickly and frail unless they put on some make-up (sorry just the truth). In some industries, it does not matter, but your appearance is taken into account in most and will be judged. You end up being a reflection on the company as well. It is hard to have a vague policy like "Dress professionally" when people take that to mean different things entirely.
 
2020-07-24 3:12:49 AM  

orbister: Magnanimous_J: Some women can look put together without makeup. A lot of them look like Winston Churchill in a wig.

Even if that were true, what would it have to do with professionalism? Would you chose a heart surgeon based on how much makeup she wore?


You would probably be pretty hesitant to seek the advice of a heart surgeon with a neckbeard, face tattoos, was obese, and was wearing an Affliction T-Shirt and Tom Hardy pre-torn jeans. In that specific profession, it does not come into play as much, but still has an impact. Take that to a court room or virtually any sales position and you just won't be taken seriously if you look like a slob. Makeup is not always a qualifier for that, but for some women it is. It is hard to have a selectively enforced policy however.
 
2020-07-24 3:15:41 AM  

Murkanen: the money is in the banana stand:

There are some women that look like they just rolled out of bed after day drinking rose' all day when they do not put on make-up.

Your opinion about their physical attractiveness without make-up isn't relevant to the issue of their professional appearance.


Sure it is. The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions. To say otherwise is lying. It is the unvarnished truth. We all know it but are ashamed to admit it. Countless studies have proven that the more attractive you are, the more pretty much everything goes in your favor. Ted Bunday would have been far less successful if he was a deformed incel.
 
2020-07-24 3:23:52 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: orbister: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

What's "professional" about wearing make-up?

Like it or not, it is only human for us to make judgements based on someone's appearance.


That's dodging the question. Why it makeup so important to a woman's appearance?
 
2020-07-24 3:25:36 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: Take that to a court room or virtually any sales position and you just won't be taken seriously if you look like a slob.


And failure to wear makeup is looking like a slob?
 
2020-07-24 4:08:43 AM  

orbister: Why it makeup so important to a woman's appearance?


Because most women wear makeup.  Thus a made-up appearance is normalized.

It's very chicken vs egg, and it can only really be overcome by a mass movement among women to stop wearing makeup and shame women who do wear makeup, but the world no longer functions in a way where such a thing is feasible, as you essentially cannot shame people anymore.

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.
 
2020-07-24 4:13:59 AM  

FlashHarry: Sexist? Yes. Illegal? Probably.


I can guarantee it's nearly impossible.
 
2020-07-24 5:01:36 AM  
the money is in the banana stand:

The two go hand-in-hand on many of occasions.

A very rare handful of occasions, and one of those occasions isn't even legal in the US outside of limited jurisdictions in Nevada.  The rest of the time?  If you're fine with doing business with average, or ugly, men then the women you interact with shouldn't need to doll themselves up for your visual pleasure to get the same courtesy.
 
2020-07-24 5:10:25 AM  
Hypnotic Harlequin:

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.

There's no reason to take it that far though.  If women enjoy it let them wear it, and for those who don't let them forego the hassle of putting it on.  As more decide that they like the convenience of ignoring it more than they like the visual appeal it gives them it will gradually become less popular, or nothing will change, but either way it shouldn't have any bearing on their "professionalism".
 
2020-07-24 5:20:11 AM  
Hypnotic Harlequin: It's very chicken vs egg, and it can only really be overcome by a mass movement among women to stop wearing makeup and shame women who do wear makeup, but the world no longer functions in a way where such a thing is feasible, as you essentially cannot shame people anymore.

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.


There is no need to stop women wearing make up. All that's needed is to treat them equally at work regardless of whether they wear makeup or not.
 
2020-07-24 5:23:29 AM  

luna1580: Kit Fister: luna1580: someone who believes i cannot fulfill my work obligations without putting on lipstick and mascara (unless my career is "make up model") is probably so deeply sexist they don't even realize it's a sexist thing to believe.

if a face of makeup magically turned a human into a better lawyer, or teacher, or investor, or executive, or chemist, or psychiatrist, or whatever, men's makeup lines would have dominated products marketed to women long ago.

asking women, and only women, to "look pretty for the camera" at a virtual (or physical) work meeting is sexist as f*ck.

I regret I cannot gift you with a year of TF. Where should o send the $50 instead?

thank you! if you're serious:

Center for Biological Diversity


done. $150 donation made.
 
2020-07-24 5:24:37 AM  

Murkanen: Hypnotic Harlequin:

Since so many women gain a social advantage through makeup, getting women to surrender makeup will be nearly impossible.

There's no reason to take it that far though.  If women enjoy it let them wear it, and for those who don't let them forego the hassle of putting it on.  As more decide that they like the convenience of ignoring it more than they like the visual appeal it gives them it will gradually become less popular, or nothing will change, but either way it shouldn't have any bearing on their "professionalism".


Indeed. Most professionals don't use wheelchairs, or hearing aids, or braille, but we don't define professionalism by whether or not someone uses these things. Well, mostly.
 
2020-07-24 5:25:51 AM  

Ringshadow: Idiot Stick Bearer: Please oh please do this and post a pic

Sadly, I do not own makeup at all and I hesitate to try a Drag King look as heavily tempted as I am. I really, really do not want hives.

Ishidan: Coming from you, that's amazing. Put on a full body hazmat suit and dive into the greasy depths of the pipe runs of a power plant? Can do. Maybelline? Maybe go fark yourself.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never have. Mom tried desperately to get me into it but like, I could barely put in the effort to keep my hair in a ponytail when it was long. Then my skin shiat the bed and we were struggling to even find soap I could use so it fell by the wayside. Turns out I don't really like looking feminine. Which works because I don't really have a gender. And now it's a blessing, less stuff on my face to cause chaos.

Shampoo is the actual worst though. Free and clear shampoos are few and far between and don't actually seem to do their job. I have to use cetaphil baby shampoo because cetaphil cannot be arsed to make an adult shampoo. Adult face wash? Of course! Shampoo, why would they do that? Ugh.

Kit Fister: you're right, shaving with sensitive skin sucks. Between the cuts and bleeding, the razor burn, and the horrible facial rash as the hair grows out again, not to mention the Velcro face stage...I'd rather do makeup. At least I wouldn't feel like I blow torched my face and look like a teenage with severe acne.

I have rosacea 1 2 and 4, adult acne, contact dermatitis and psoriasis.

Oh, and by the way, I can't even work if I have any open wounds. So if I break out badly or violently react to something... like, say, makeup... guess what?

Also there is nothing farking funnier than seeing another female who had a full face of makeup on pull a respirator off and she now has a ring of naked skin because the makeup stayed on the respirator seal.

/my dermatologists, all to a single one, have breathed sighs of relief when I say I don't wear makeup
//fun fact, women have the same prob ...


I was trying to agree with you, not mock or argue against your point. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
 
2020-07-24 6:35:37 AM  

StandsWithAFist: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

I'll agree with the caveat that the request be as gender neutral and as common sense as possible.

We've had similar discussions at my workplace, and the consensus boiled down to this: if it's a zoom meeting with a client, do us proud & be presentable. If it's a zoom meeting with coworkers, have basic personal hygiene.

Also, this:
[Fark user image image 425x245]


Yeah, if you always wear make-up and then show up without, you'll look paler and 'glossier'. If I showed up at work looking paler and with some shine to the face I usually don't have, people will ask me if I'm sick as well.
 
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