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(Refinery29)   Is asking women to wear makeup for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal?   (refinery29.com) divider line
    More: Survey, Discrimination, Gender, Sexism, Woman, Sexual harassment, woman's right, Female, Sex  
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3587 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2020 at 4:05 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-23 5:02:36 PM  

SirMadness: AmbassadorBooze: Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.

You almost got to the solution.  Make the men wear make up too.  Problem solved.

As you insist:
[byrdie.com image 650x683]


Am I supposed to have a problem with that? Because I don't.
 
2020-07-23 5:02:37 PM  
If you think the guy that said this has never offered several women employment or a promotion in exchange for sex, you just haven't thought about it yet.  Go ahead.  Think about it.

/ There it is.
 
2020-07-23 5:02:39 PM  

whidbey: Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

False equivalence much?


Um it's an inconvenient standard of presentation that doesnt improve actual job performance and only is required of one gender....
 
2020-07-23 5:03:22 PM  
Next video meeting, I'm using a puppet behind my desk.

Seriously tho, in Canada it would be illegal, but difficult to enforce because everyone is to polite to ask.
 
2020-07-23 5:05:15 PM  

Leader O'Cola: whidbey: Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

False equivalence much?

Um it's an inconvenient standard of presentation that doesnt improve actual job performance and only is required of one gender....


Yeah uh, I realized I was being a bit triggerhappy there.   I get it.
 
2020-07-23 5:05:44 PM  

Ringshadow: I have never worn makeup.

If you asked me to wear makeup, and probably utterly destroy my skin in the process. I'm going full tilt clown. Pennywise, Bozo? Maybe Deulla Dent?

Also, fun fact, you can use contour makeup to Drag King too. Maybe I'll look up Drag King makeup tutorials and arrive in the Zoom meeting as the man I'd never been until that moment.

/you never know


Your newsletter, I must subscribe.
 
2020-07-23 5:06:27 PM  

KidKorporate: They don't ask me to wear pants, so I don't ask them to wear makeup.


Actually, there have been several requests you either wear pants or stop sitting so far back from the camera.
 
2020-07-23 5:07:04 PM  
The amount of people in this thread who think that wearing make-up is a requirement for women to "look professional" while not also applying that standard to men is just wild.

That line of thinking is sexist, even if it's just subconscious and even if you're big on feminism. That's how deeply pervasive this shiat is in our society. You're exhibiting a taught bias. And that's okay! This learned crap runs deep. Just recognize that it is a bias and work to check yourself in the future.
 
2020-07-23 5:10:53 PM  

Leader O'Cola: Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.


Makeup has literally nothing to do with that.
 
2020-07-23 5:11:04 PM  
I consider this to be the best lipstick application tutorial in the world:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 5:11:20 PM  
If every man and woman gets the identical instruction to wear makeup then it is probably legal.

...Though a bit creepy and authoritarian.  Some people just need to learn to mind their own business.


If it is only aimed at women then farking yes it is illegal, sexist, and immoral.  What the fark is wrong with you people?
 
2020-07-23 5:12:07 PM  

brizzle365: its a reasonable request to be presentable.

If the men are being asked to be cleanly groomed (shave and at least try to do something with your hair so it doesn't look like you just rolled out of bed), then its fair and reasonable.

But, what do I know, I have a dick.


So wash our face and brush our hair?

I mean most women are clean shaven by default but I'm sure those that aren't can work something out.

Or, I expect to see you James Charles glammed out on the zoom call, your choice.

/37 and have never worn makeup
//my skin would likely destroy itself if I tried
 
2020-07-23 5:13:09 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: stray_capts: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.

I am actively writing to my government weasels to have universal standards in the government.  If I get my way, you will all be nameless and faceless.  You won't need makeup, since you should all have identity obscuring masks on anyways.  The government doesn't need your gender or sexuality or any other personal info about you.  You should be doing your job as a drone, and nothing else.  Then you clock out, go home and be an individual there.  Problem solved.


I agree.  Either dresses, skirts and open toed shoes (strappy sandals) are okay or they aren't.  Why does anybody care?
 
2020-07-23 5:14:51 PM  

brizzle365: its a reasonable request to be presentable.

If the men are being asked to be cleanly groomed (shave and at least try to do something with your hair so it doesn't look like you just rolled out of bed), then its fair and reasonable.

But, what do I know, I have a dick.


Funny how one can look groomed without having to put goo on their face.
 
2020-07-23 5:17:05 PM  

patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?


Not to Whidbey they don't, not for any amount.
 
2020-07-23 5:19:20 PM  
what next? no calling chicks "babe"?
 
2020-07-23 5:21:51 PM  

NotThatGuyAgain: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

Not to Whidbey they don't, not for any amount.


*the point*

you  ---------->
 
2020-07-23 5:22:08 PM  

Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.

Makeup has literally nothing to do with that.


how is it any different than shaving your facial hair   (male) ?
 
2020-07-23 5:24:30 PM  

cwheelie: what next? no calling chicks "babe"?


Broads hate that.
 
2020-07-23 5:26:36 PM  
I've never done this before but...

brigid_fitch: If anyone asks me to do my hair (I just throw it in a ponytail) or wear makeup, I will personally drive to their house and cover them in spray tan.  "There, farkwad!  How do YOU like wearing a coating of stuff all day just for 1 stupid conference call where you're all on your phones anyway??"


username checks out.  :p

/in agreement with you though
 
2020-07-23 5:30:17 PM  

ViolentEastCoastCity: Jaws_Victim: How sexist and tone deaf of their CEO.

In the meantime, how about she trade me with my essential job, and she go out in public and expose herself to covid, and I'll stay home and put make up on and sit on my ass on a webcam?

Real tired of white collar people and their "issues" staying home and being safe.

Feminism and equal rights isn't a "white collar" issue.  And I'm sure you'd be pissed off if you were considered lesser at your place of employment if you weren't wearing makeup.

We can't let this crap slide just because the world's on fire.  Now's the time to make changes.


You are right
 
2020-07-23 5:30:37 PM  

NotThatGuyAgain: Boo_Guy: Anyone know what happened to the weirdly small waisted Russian girl thread?

It was nuked from existence before I could read it.

/this post will self destruct in 3,2,1..

Here's the source article.  You're welcome, I guess.

https://englishrussia.com/2020/07/23/r​ussian-girl-with-the-amazingly-slender​-waist


I already saw it, I'm more interested in what was going on in the comments that got the thread nuked from Fark Orbital HQ.
 
2020-07-23 5:34:27 PM  
NotThatGuyAgain:
Fark user imageView Full Size

Is thisa what y'all want?

/Mugshot from a different greenlighted article


Fark user imageView Full Size

"Do you think I'm sexy?"
 
2020-07-23 5:36:15 PM  

whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?


I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.
 
2020-07-23 5:36:57 PM  

Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?


Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

It has never affected my ability to do anything in my life. This might shock you, but makeup doesn't suddenly give someone a skill set (beyond the ability to do makeup). It doesn't improve your ability to work.

In my case, it would directly damage me. I have FOUR diagnosed skin conditions. I have to use specialty face cleaners and I'm on a small battery of medication, topical and oral, to try to control my skin.

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.
 
2020-07-23 5:38:20 PM  

patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.


Good lord, don't feed Whidbey logic.
 
2020-07-23 5:38:29 PM  

8tReAsUrEz: Is asking women to wear make-up for Zoom meetings sexist and illegal? Hell yeah. The cosmetics industry should be reconverted into medical equipment/substances.


During the way Revlon and other lipstick makers repurposed their equipment to make bullets. Be careful what you are for. just saying.
 
2020-07-23 5:39:03 PM  

cwheelie: what next? no calling chicks "babe"?


It ain't me (you're looking for).
 
2020-07-23 5:39:44 PM  

whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.


It's the Libertarian way, possible profits are put ahead of what's right.
 
2020-07-23 5:45:49 PM  
If you ask one person you better ask all of them to wear makeup. And try not to look so fat and stupid.
 
2020-07-23 5:49:47 PM  
Just wear your mask to Zoom meetings. You live with your mom, she's not very healthy.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 5:51:04 PM  

whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.


"If we let black people stay at our hotel / eat at our restaurant / swim in our pool
Then we will lose all of our white customers" .
This is how segregation was explained to little kids in 1960.
 
2020-07-23 5:51:56 PM  

angryjd: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

Do you think that you would win in court? If not, then the answer is no.


Ask Price Waterhouse.
 
2020-07-23 5:52:58 PM  
THE TRUTH:

All you mofos are ugly and 720+ pixels really shows it off.

please keep your face to about 320 or less, unless you're a professional at the hotness and have professional make up artist hiding your blemishes anyway, men and women alike. 720+ streaming ain't doing you any favors, seriously.
 
2020-07-23 5:54:31 PM  

patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.


See bolded part.   That means you're not.
 
2020-07-23 5:55:15 PM  

NotThatGuyAgain: Good lord, don't feed Whidbey logic.


Actually both of you are avoiding the question:

Do you think you're not sexist?

Logic says you are.
 
2020-07-23 5:55:32 PM  

SumoJeb: Xai: If it's a meeting with clients and everyone is being asked to present a professional image then no, if it's for the 'benefit' of male employees, which is what I suspect, then yes.

unless the employee is a farking clown, facepaint is not part of a professional image.


Fark user imageView Full Size


Whether this is evidence for or against the quoted statement, I leave as an exercise for the reader.
 
2020-07-23 5:56:19 PM  

whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.

See bolded part.   That means you're not.


dumb.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 5:57:05 PM  

Ringshadow: Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?

Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

It has never affected my ability to do anything in my life. This might shock you, but makeup doesn't suddenly give someone a skill set (beyond the ability to do makeup). It doesn't improve your ability to work.

In my case, it would directly damage me. I have FOUR diagnosed skin conditions. I have to use specialty face cleaners and I'm on a small battery of medication, topical and oral, to try to control my skin.

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.



you are completely misreading what I wrote. I didn't say makeup gives someone a skill or ability; quite the contrary.  I did however say it (and shaving/suit/tie) are entrenched standards of visual perception concerning professionalism in many fields.
And you also are apparently oblivious to the medical issues some , particularly those of certain racial backgrounds have with regular facial shaving.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudof​o​lliculitis_barbae  neither shaving nor makeup is "natural" and come with time, $, and possible health or psychological costs to those who either choose, or are required to do it.    If it's good for the gander...     Now, with that said, there are some jobs where literally having facial hair might impede the ability to do work (wearing a chemical exposure mask, for example).  But we're speaking very generally here.
 
2020-07-23 5:58:53 PM  

NotThatGuyAgain: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: whidbey: patowen: It's capitalism folks.  Sure, pass a "no-makeup" rule at your company.  Equitable and progressive.

But your competitors might not be so like-minded.  If they start making more profit because their sales people look attractive then your investors might want a re-think on your policies.

That's a nice way of justifying sexism.

You don't think sex sells?

You don't think you're being sexist?

I'm just observing.  Do you think I got it wrong?  Hey, I'm all for equity and progress.  But I think capitalism doesn't care much about that stuff, it cares about profit.

The reproductive sex drive is insanely powerful and nearly universal, and now you're telling me I *can't* use it to sell soap?  The board of directors won't like that.

See bolded part.   That means you're not.

[dumb.com image 414x337]


Deflection noted.
 
2020-07-23 6:04:24 PM  

smd31: I've never done this before but...

brigid_fitch: If anyone asks me to do my hair (I just throw it in a ponytail) or wear makeup, I will personally drive to their house and cover them in spray tan.  "There, farkwad!  How do YOU like wearing a coating of stuff all day just for 1 stupid conference call where you're all on your phones anyway??"

username checks out.  :p

/in agreement with you though


Okay, I seriousy LOL'd. Thanks for that
 
2020-07-23 6:05:12 PM  
Leader O'Cola: how is it any different than shaving your facial hair (male) ?
Ringshadow:
Again: I am AFAB and I have literally never worn makeup.

...

So you tell me: how the hell is me going about my life with my face washed (and topicals on) so farking insulting to your sexist ass? Shaving is a FAR cry from makeup, boo.


I know plenty of men in professional jobs that don't shave. Some trim their beards, some don't. It really isn't the same thing as saying 'you should wear make-up' to  a woman.

How would you feel if your employer said you should/must grow a full face beard? Maybe you can't. Maybe you don't want to. But you're now forced to make a decision that you really don't want to make, just because you're a man.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that is how it might feel, for a woman, to be told she should/must wear make-up.
 
2020-07-23 6:05:32 PM  

stray_capts: Goldensummer: angryjd: No and no.

Yes and likely yes.

If the policy only effects one gender it is sexist. If it effects promotions, treatment or hiring it is likely illegal because it targets one gender and isn't applied equally. There are specific rules that govern this in the US.  There are exceptions for businesses where makeup is considered part of the uniform like theater or cosmetics or striping.
I worked in retail for twelve years in management and managed multi million dollar locations of high end boutiques and NEVER wore makeup. I'm clean, well styled and wore what we sold. I had exactly one manager who tried to tell me I had to and corporate had to inform him that he was incorrect.

I'm curious about the "if men and women are treated differently it is sexist" part.  My work has different dress code for men and women.  Is that sexist?  Personally, I don't care if dudes wear dresses but it IS against the dress code.

Difficulty: My employer is the US Govt.


In Sweden, male train operators started wearing skirts in the summer because the company dress code didn't permit shorts but skirts were allowed:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe​-​22828150
 
2020-07-23 6:10:27 PM  
Sexist? Yes
Illegal? Probably not. You can refuse. You can also get fired for refusing. Gotta love at-will employment.
 
2020-07-23 6:10:44 PM  

Dewey Fidalgo: Are the men being asked to wear make-up?   No?

Then yes, it is sexist.


I get criticized for not shaving  combing my hair and some of the tee shirts I have worn.

/Don't care.. there are plenty of jobs out there...
//don't use my camera most of the time.
//if I have to have it on, I make sure the ceiling fan is on behind me as it freaks people out.
 
2020-07-23 6:12:35 PM  

whidbey: patowen: 

See bolded part.   That means you're not.


Dude.  I don't like capitalism.  I'm being cynical here.  Work with me.

Is this what long ferry lines, windstorms and jet noise do to you?  Maybe you should try Orcas.
 
2020-07-23 6:13:45 PM  

Leader O'Cola: No makeup? Fine.

Just dont ask men to shave or wear a suit or tie. Since it's all about standards of visual professional decorum.


It's all about reaching the bottom together.
 
2020-07-23 6:15:38 PM  

Devolving_Spud: It's sexist.  The women should follow the letter of the policy, and apply Groucho Marx style eyebrows and mustache.   "There.  Policy followed.  Are there any questions?  Would we like to maybe rethink this policy, or shall we attend the next zoom meeting as Pennywise?"


I was thinking more along the lines of KISS or IT.
 
2020-07-23 6:15:54 PM  
e.lvme.meView Full Size
 
2020-07-23 6:19:10 PM  
I think so.  That's why for my zoom meetings, the ladies aren't required to wear anything at all. In fact, I encourage...hold on, HR is calling.
 
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