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(CNN)   Florida teachers union sues Florida over emergency order that schools completely open, turn on their side, and pour all the students and teachers into shark infested waters   (cnn.com) divider line
    More: Florida, Teacher, English-language films, Education, Want, Need, national affiliate, Black-and-white films, Stefanie Miller  
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2146 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 21 Jul 2020 at 5:26 AM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-21 8:22:21 AM  

SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.


Can they afford to die from Covid 19? Or spread it to their families?
 
2020-07-21 8:22:29 AM  

pkjun: solokumba: pkjun: Alphax: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

If you're willing to sacrifice your life and your kids lives for a PAYCHECK, you have no business being a teacher.

If you don't get a paycheck and employer-provided health insurance you're sacrificing your life.

Most teachers are up against the edge of poverty anyway. Asking them to choose between the possibility of covid and the certainty of homelessness, with children being materially damaged either way, is not conscionable.

Substitutes work for extra pay. Most won't be retuning. Many teachers close to retire will retire early. If you have a two person household income many will consider a leave of absence. There will not be enough qualified teachers to fill the void.

Yes, I agree completely. Leaving this up to individual choice is going to be a disaster on a number of fronts, and will probably just result in schools shutting due to inability to find staff eventually anyway. The question is how many lives get ruined along the way.


Many lives are already ruined and not just teachers. August and September will bring this nation to its breaking point. There will me more layoffs and homelessness. You can take that to the bank... but most of them are still closed or by appointment only. Banks are closed but schools need to open my ass...
 
2020-07-21 8:23:33 AM  

skinink: Alphax: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

If you're willing to sacrifice your life and your kids lives for a PAYCHECK, you have no business being a teacher.

You think the people working in supermarkets and other places that stayed open during the pandemic are doing it despite the money? People have bills to pay and might not have the options to sit it out. I wish everyone were able to do the best to protect themselves and others. But every situation is different, and if the Feds/local governments aren't going to step up to protect us, then I'm not sure how people should respond.


I feel like "Teachers should step up and sacrifice for their students by teaching in a pandemic" and "Teachers should step up and resign rather than force their students to come to work in a pandemic" are both sort of equally exploitative arguments, and that both of them rely on a mindset that thinks that teachers should be teaching purely as a labour of love, for the children, with no attention paid to their own material needs, and if they so much as think about how they're going to pay the rent they are unworthy of the profession.

Which, frankly, is only a thing people think because teaching is traditionally women's work in the United States.
 
2020-07-21 8:26:19 AM  
Why do they attempt to avoid the inevitable? They should embrace it.

storage.googleapis.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-21 8:26:36 AM  

ChrisDe: My local school board is having a lot of Zoom meetings to discuss sending students and teachers back to school.


If they're serious they should meet in person.
 
2020-07-21 8:31:40 AM  

Birnone: I think they, the Republican leaders of the state, are trying this because they are thinking that the people will turn against the teachers. I think the factors they are counting on are:
1. Parents need the schools open so with the kids in school the parents can go to work.
2. Teachers are unionized, with all associated benefits. In a time when lots are out of work, this can cause envy and resentment which Republicans can exploit.
3. People who are working might feel 'if I can still go to work, why can't teachers?'.
4. Some people think the virus is no big deal so those people will be against the teachers.

Who knows, it might work. I suspect that more parents will understand that this is a dangerous move though, and I don't think there will be an anti-teacher backlash.


And if there is - think of how many more teachers will just leave?  Can't run a school without enough teachers.
 
2020-07-21 8:33:48 AM  
It's just Florida. What do they even do in their schools? Learn to color almost inside the lines?
 
2020-07-21 8:36:55 AM  

pkjun: Nimbull: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

Won't have a paycheck and insurance for long if you catch COVID-19, need a ventilator, and all the ICUs are at capacity in the state. Families can't be fed and cared for if you are six feet under.

10% chance of needing hospital treatment versus 100% chance of homelessness and inability to pay for hopsital treatment if you do get sick from some Maskfree plague rat in the Publix.

Yeah, sorry, the maths don't work out there for making this an issue of individual choice. It needs to be an issue of collective bargaining.


Or you could look at it like this...

100% chance of avoiding it at school.
100% chance of avoiding infecting other peoples kids at the school.
100% chance of finding other work that pays and provides for your family without as much risk.

I think the maths are pretty good really in that respect.
 
2020-07-21 8:37:28 AM  

ChrisDe: My local school board is having a lot of Zoom meetings to discuss sending students and teachers back to school.


The number of people doing work via Zoom/remotely/etc insisting that OTHER people put themselves at risk by going back to in-person work is staggering. It's like the feudal lords ordering the peasants into the fields from the safety of their castles during the plague.
 
2020-07-21 8:38:13 AM  
It was clear in March that this was a deadly pandemic. Everyone on earth knows that Impeached President Trump
 
2020-07-21 8:38:56 AM  
BABY KILLERS!!!
/How does it feel?
 
2020-07-21 8:39:02 AM  
.. was POTUS. Teachers and health carte workers' careers ended in March 2020. Now comes their next careers.
 
2020-07-21 8:40:41 AM  
I think the gold standard for opening a school is if it's safe enough for Trump to send Barron in to the school all day to learn then it'll be safe enough for your kid. Same logic should hold for the teachers as well.
 
2020-07-21 8:43:17 AM  

thrillbilly1967: Well they forget to mention other employees. Kitchen custodial bus drivers. We are all in the same predicament.

It's even worse for bus drivers. The teacher will be in a classroom with on average 25 kids. She can have total control of the kids.

Bus driver....trapped in a space the size of 1.5 classroom with 72 kids no help and having to drive at the same time. Who do you think has the most dangerous job?

And this bullshiat of "put one kid per seat every other seat" wont work for about 3/4 of the children. Because they live in rural areas. I work in the transportation department of the county system here. Most of our routes average 1 hr to 1 hr and 30 mins. Routes start between 545 and 615 and most end at 720 at the school they are assigned. So if we did that it would take at least 2 trips per bus. So we would have to put kids on a bus at 330am and they wouldn't be getting home til about 7pm. Anyone think that's even remotely sensible?

And this has already made us severely short handed. We have 127 full time drivers a dozen "utility" full time and 23 active sub drivers. We have had 29 people retire since March when they ended school. 5 utility quit and of the 23 active subs 11 asked to be removed from the call list. We average 1 to 2 retire a year normally.

System wide we had as of the last board meeting last month 239 people retire system wide. And these are employees that had no intention of retiring before Corona. And we have a great number saying when our systems plan rolls out next week they will retire if they dont like the plan.

At our last supervisory meeting we figured we will lose about 500 employees to retirement. And that's up until Thanksgiving. And in an average year system wide is usually less than 20.


And I forgot to include....bus drivers will have to check kids temps before allowing on the bus. So they're going to be a buffer and eliminating some of the risk for teachers...while exposing themselves. AND if the child has a fever we cant send them back to their house. We have to put them on the bus and take them to the school and take them to the nurse. Yep...put the feverish kid on the enclosed bus with other kids and transport them to the school.


So see children...you can be educated and still be a moron. Just like the people making up these plans.

What they should do is just cancel school until January. Then go all next summer to make up and have a couple short 2 week breaks in there and then resume the next school year as usual. But...that's a common sense plan. And when it comes to public education common sense doesnt apply
 
2020-07-21 8:43:33 AM  
 I must have killed more people than Cecil B. DeMille
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-21 8:44:45 AM  
With uncontrolled spread, schools would be lucky to last 30 days before outbreaks happen. It would be more chaotic to start in person then have to close and shift to online.
 
2020-07-21 8:55:45 AM  

Nimbull: pkjun: Nimbull: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

Won't have a paycheck and insurance for long if you catch COVID-19, need a ventilator, and all the ICUs are at capacity in the state. Families can't be fed and cared for if you are six feet under.

10% chance of needing hospital treatment versus 100% chance of homelessness and inability to pay for hopsital treatment if you do get sick from some Maskfree plague rat in the Publix.

Yeah, sorry, the maths don't work out there for making this an issue of individual choice. It needs to be an issue of collective bargaining.

Or you could look at it like this...

100% chance of avoiding it at school.
100% chance of avoiding infecting other peoples kids at the school.
100% chance of finding other work that pays and provides for your family without as much risk.

I think the maths are pretty good really in that respect.


Just to give you an idea of how it works:

Teachers hire in at a low salary.  They are supposed to get a 'step' for each year they are at the school - but over the last 10-15 years, many places froze steps due to budget concerns.

Not only are there current first/second year teachers that make as much or less as someone who works in fast-food, there are also five or ten year teachers that are making that amount in many places at this point in time.  Our local school hasn't been able to keep many teachers in that experience range - they all leave for different jobs or different school districts that don't have frozen steps.

Even though it is an anecdotal story - I know one teacher who already got a job working at a fast-food restaurant with slightly worse benefits but roughly the same salary she was making last year - and she feels as if she will come in less contact with other people.
 
2020-07-21 8:56:28 AM  
As a parent in a state that has already announced (by county) that they're doing distance learning until February at the earliest....

Close the schools, forget the distance learning.  It's not the schools being closed that's the issue, it's the extra work on the parents who are still working 8-10 hours/day from home (or out in the world as my husband is).

I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Also, what is the plan?  What is "safe"? When everyone is vaccinated 3 years from now?  Please, let us know what the actual requirements are.
 
2020-07-21 9:04:42 AM  
UBI's lookin' pretty nice right about now isn't it?
 
2020-07-21 9:08:14 AM  

kukukupo: Nimbull: pkjun: Nimbull: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

Won't have a paycheck and insurance for long if you catch COVID-19, need a ventilator, and all the ICUs are at capacity in the state. Families can't be fed and cared for if you are six feet under.

10% chance of needing hospital treatment versus 100% chance of homelessness and inability to pay for hopsital treatment if you do get sick from some Maskfree plague rat in the Publix.

Yeah, sorry, the maths don't work out there for making this an issue of individual choice. It needs to be an issue of collective bargaining.

Or you could look at it like this...

100% chance of avoiding it at school.
100% chance of avoiding infecting other peoples kids at the school.
100% chance of finding other work that pays and provides for your family without as much risk.

I think the maths are pretty good really in that respect.

Just to give you an idea of how it works:

Teachers hire in at a low salary.  They are supposed to get a 'step' for each year they are at the school - but over the last 10-15 years, many places froze steps due to budget concerns.

Not only are there current first/second year teachers that make as much or less as someone who works in fast-food, there are also five or ten year teachers that are making that amount in many places at this point in time.  Our local school hasn't been able to keep many teachers in that experience range - they all leave for different jobs or different school districts that don't have frozen steps.

Even though it is an anecdotal story - I know one teacher who already got a job working at a fast-food restaurant with slightly worse benefits but roughly the same salary she was making last year - and she feels as if she will come in less contact with other people.


I call bullshiat. I have been in the school system for several years. In a state that pays their teachers the second lowest in the nation. And they make on average 40k as a first year salary and work 182 days a year. Full time fast food averages 15k. Of course in other states fast food may pay twice that but every other profession including teachers pay much more as well.

The whole "teachers are starving " is the biggest crock of shiat ingrained into our publics minds out there. Even in my system...again second lowest pay in the country....teachers make on average TRIPLE the average income for the state.
 
2020-07-21 9:11:55 AM  

Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).


Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.
 
2020-07-21 9:13:01 AM  

thrillbilly1967: work 182 days a year


lol
 
2020-07-21 9:26:00 AM  
WV resident here.  They're doing fully back to school here.  I don't think they're even changing occupancy on the school buses.  This isn't going to be pretty
 
2020-07-21 9:32:14 AM  

thrillbilly1967: thrillbilly1967: Well they forget to mention other employees. Kitchen custodial bus drivers. We are all in the same predicament.

It's even worse for bus drivers. The teacher will be in a classroom with on average 25 kids. She can have total control of the kids.

Bus driver....trapped in a space the size of 1.5 classroom with 72 kids no help and having to drive at the same time. Who do you think has the most dangerous job?

And this bullshiat of "put one kid per seat every other seat" wont work for about 3/4 of the children. Because they live in rural areas. I work in the transportation department of the county system here. Most of our routes average 1 hr to 1 hr and 30 mins. Routes start between 545 and 615 and most end at 720 at the school they are assigned. So if we did that it would take at least 2 trips per bus. So we would have to put kids on a bus at 330am and they wouldn't be getting home til about 7pm. Anyone think that's even remotely sensible?

And this has already made us severely short handed. We have 127 full time drivers a dozen "utility" full time and 23 active sub drivers. We have had 29 people retire since March when they ended school. 5 utility quit and of the 23 active subs 11 asked to be removed from the call list. We average 1 to 2 retire a year normally.

System wide we had as of the last board meeting last month 239 people retire system wide. And these are employees that had no intention of retiring before Corona. And we have a great number saying when our systems plan rolls out next week they will retire if they dont like the plan.

At our last supervisory meeting we figured we will lose about 500 employees to retirement. And that's up until Thanksgiving. And in an average year system wide is usually less than 20.

And I forgot to include....bus drivers will have to check kids temps before allowing on the bus. So they're going to be a buffer and eliminating some of the risk for teachers...while exposing themselves. AND if the child has a fev ...


Our county doesn't have enough staff to cover the buses for a normal year (we're about 98% covered once you account for daily call-outs). I have no idea how they are planning to handle transportation for the upcoming year. Other than hoping a good 50-90% of the families won't send their kids back to school.
 
2020-07-21 9:33:46 AM  

Kali-Ma: As a parent in a state that has already announced (by county) that they're doing distance learning until February at the earliest....

Close the schools, forget the distance learning.  It's not the schools being closed that's the issue, it's the extra work on the parents who are still working 8-10 hours/day from home (or out in the world as my husband is).

I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Also, what is the plan?  What is "safe"? When everyone is vaccinated 3 years from now?  Please, let us know what the actual requirements are.


Here's the thing, though.

Had the districts been at all smart about it, they could have gone full-ass distance learning (ass-distance?). My husband is a university professor, and his institution decided in early June to go distance learning for the fall. The administration then went and found the right software, hardware, upgraded their networks, and - perhaps most important - coughed up some cash to pay the faculty (who, like teachers, are not paid during the summer months) to be trained on the software and to adapt their courses for remote learning. They are providing students without the hardware with Chromebooks and internet sponsored by local ISPs. And this is not some Tier 1 school.

I get that distance learning in the spring was, in many cases, a disaster. But of course it was. Schools shut down mid-year with little advance notice that this was going to happen. The infrastructure wasn't in place, the training wasn't there.

But it could have been done better for the fall. Districts had all summer to prepare for the possibility of distance learning this fall. Yes, it would have cost money, and there are lots of districts in red areas where education is lower than low on the priority list (and blue areas where the money is hard to come by). But SOME prep work could have been done. But instead across the nation so many districts have either been waiting and just crossing their fingers that it'll be possible to have normal school, or worse, in states where they are being ORDERED to open for no other reason than Trump insists on it, safety be damned.

It could have been done better. It just isn't.
 
2020-07-21 9:36:16 AM  

Spindle: WV resident here.  They're doing fully back to school here.  I don't think they're even changing occupancy on the school buses.  This isn't going to be pretty


https://wvde.us/wp-content/uploads/20​2​0/07/WV-School-Re-entry-Toolkit-070820​-FORWEB-2.pdf

Official WV back to school policy.

Basically:  wear a mask, keep your distance.

Buses are limited to two kids per seat.
 
2020-07-21 9:42:14 AM  
Do they call theirs plan b also or this plan a?  Things that may kill children and others, my uncle decided to retire from teaching, turns 60 this year, decided it wasn't worth it,

Not sure when it ever was from the stories he has told
 
2020-07-21 10:06:42 AM  

thrillbilly1967: kukukupo: Nimbull: pkjun: Nimbull: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

Won't have a paycheck and insurance for long if you catch COVID-19, need a ventilator, and all the ICUs are at capacity in the state. Families can't be fed and cared for if you are six feet under.

10% chance of needing hospital treatment versus 100% chance of homelessness and inability to pay for hopsital treatment if you do get sick from some Maskfree plague rat in the Publix.

Yeah, sorry, the maths don't work out there for making this an issue of individual choice. It needs to be an issue of collective bargaining.

Or you could look at it like this...

100% chance of avoiding it at school.
100% chance of avoiding infecting other peoples kids at the school.
100% chance of finding other work that pays and provides for your family without as much risk.

I think the maths are pretty good really in that respect.

Just to give you an idea of how it works:

Teachers hire in at a low salary.  They are supposed to get a 'step' for each year they are at the school - but over the last 10-15 years, many places froze steps due to budget concerns.

Not only are there current first/second year teachers that make as much or less as someone who works in fast-food, there are also five or ten year teachers that are making that amount in many places at this point in time.  Our local school hasn't been able to keep many teachers in that experience range - they all leave for different jobs or different school districts that don't have frozen steps.

Even though it is an anecdotal story - I know one teacher who already got a job working at a fast-food restaurant with ...


Our teachers hire in around 23k to start.  The step freeze started 10 years ago and was only unfrozen recently.  It has been bad here.
 
2020-07-21 10:10:40 AM  
Sorry - I put 23k - should be 33k.

Still - the lady I know got in a fast food place as a manager at around 30k.  Sure, the normal peons out of high school make 15k/year - which is about the same a substitute teacher will make in a year.
 
2020-07-21 10:12:07 AM  
Wait, let me get this straight. My nephew can't take a PayDay candy bar to school because 1 kid out of the 1,500 students has an allergy and might get accidentally exposed from the other side of the building, but we are going cram kids in busses and force everyone back into classrooms while a life threatening, highly contagious virus is running rampant?

Must be Republicans running the show.
 
2020-07-21 10:14:43 AM  

thrillbilly1967: kukukupo: Nimbull: pkjun: Nimbull: SpectroBoy: Nimbull: I'd resign if I was a teacher. No way I'd go back in to that mess especially since they don't really pay enough to be a baby sitter for the kids much less go in to pandemic infested school.

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. (ITG talk?)

The teachers I know need their paycheck and their health insurance and can't afford to just quit while most schools are closed.

Won't have a paycheck and insurance for long if you catch COVID-19, need a ventilator, and all the ICUs are at capacity in the state. Families can't be fed and cared for if you are six feet under.

10% chance of needing hospital treatment versus 100% chance of homelessness and inability to pay for hopsital treatment if you do get sick from some Maskfree plague rat in the Publix.

Yeah, sorry, the maths don't work out there for making this an issue of individual choice. It needs to be an issue of collective bargaining.

Or you could look at it like this...

100% chance of avoiding it at school.
100% chance of avoiding infecting other peoples kids at the school.
100% chance of finding other work that pays and provides for your family without as much risk.

I think the maths are pretty good really in that respect.

Just to give you an idea of how it works:

Teachers hire in at a low salary.  They are supposed to get a 'step' for each year they are at the school - but over the last 10-15 years, many places froze steps due to budget concerns.

Not only are there current first/second year teachers that make as much or less as someone who works in fast-food, there are also five or ten year teachers that are making that amount in many places at this point in time.  Our local school hasn't been able to keep many teachers in that experience range - they all leave for different jobs or different school districts that don't have frozen steps.

Even though it is an anecdotal story - I know one teacher who already got a job working at a fast-food restaurant with slightly worse benefits but roughly the same salary she was making last year - and she feels as if she will come in less contact with other people.

I call bullshiat. I have been in the school system for several years. In a state that pays their teachers the second lowest in the nation. And they make on average 40k as a first year salary and work 182 days a year. Full time fast food averages 15k. Of course in other states fast food may pay twice that but every other profession including teachers pay much more as well.

The whole "teachers are starving " is the biggest crock of shiat ingrained into our publics minds out there. Even in my system...again second lowest pay in the country....teachers make on average TRIPLE the average income for the state.


182 days?

You've never stepped foot inside a public school if you're that stupid.
 
2020-07-21 10:16:26 AM  

pkjun: Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.


This still essentially turns into punishing the parents for the teacher's benefit.  If I can't work full time, I should take the pay cut, but if the teacher isn't working full time, the teacher should still make full money? And don't tell me the teachers are working full-time - they didn't have any instruction time, offered no feedback on assignments, and didn't write the curriculum offered (elementary school).  They did next to nothing for 3 months while I went insane trying to keep my son busy, not lose my job, and worked extra.

This is also assuming that employer would allow you to reduce your hours (I assure you mine would not - they have been trying to give all kinds of sideways reasons for us to come in for 3 days/wk).  It'd be okay with taking half pay for half a day's work and we could limp along financially, but it's 8-10 hours/day, sometimes in person, or nothing.  And every response like this is some sort of pipedream that no US state has the money or bandwidth to initiate.
 
2020-07-21 10:20:19 AM  

G. Tarrant: Kali-Ma: As a parent in a state that has already announced (by county) that they're doing distance learning until February at the earliest....

Close the schools, forget the distance learning.  It's not the schools being closed that's the issue, it's the extra work on the parents who are still working 8-10 hours/day from home (or out in the world as my husband is).

I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Also, what is the plan?  What is "safe"? When everyone is vaccinated 3 years from now?  Please, let us know what the actual requirements are.

Here's the thing, though.

Had the districts been at all smart about it, they could have gone full-ass distance learning (ass-distance?). My husband is a university professor, and his institution decided in early June to go distance learning for the fall. The administration then went and found the right software, hardware, upgraded their networks, and - perhaps most important - coughed up some cash to pay the faculty (who, like teachers, are not paid during the summer months) to be trained on the software and to adapt their courses for remote learning. They are providing students without the hardware with Chromebooks and internet sponsored by local ISPs. And this is not some Tier 1 s ...


And that's for college...at the elementary level it's near-impossible to do distance learning without the parents fully being able to home school.  Have you tried having a Zoom meeting with a 6 year old? At elementary level, it's not just equipment/curriculum, they're just too young to police or teach themselves, particularly when they can't read yet.
 
2020-07-21 10:22:01 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Teachers:  He'll no, we are not 'essential workers'.

OK, lay them off, hire replacements.


Christ. Pinheads everywhere.

I'm sure you'll be fine with the mass hirings while they fingerprint and background check all the replacements. Shouldn't take more than 150 to 180 school days. Or maybe they'll just waive those requirements. Republicans hate regulation.
 
2020-07-21 11:16:54 AM  

Pope Larry II: groppet: Well according to the guy at work the kids will be fine because only the old and people with preexisting conditions die from the virus and all the kids are having covid parties to catch it anyways. He is also pushing the GOP BS about how Europe beat it by herd immunity and thats why they aren't getting a second wave. Didn't have the heart to tell him we are still in the first wave because of people like him and point out his many, many inaccuracies with his points on Europe.

As a Canadian, our best argument for wearing masks and a controlled opening of the economy is to just gesture southward.


As a Canadian, you should probably become a sovereign nation before comparing yourself to the US. Canada is like the child that never got married or had kids but pretends like it has moral high ground over the sibling that actually propagates the species forward. Your army is still under Queen Liz's control.
 
2020-07-21 11:22:29 AM  

CrashTheGame: Pope Larry II: groppet: Well according to the guy at work the kids will be fine because only the old and people with preexisting conditions die from the virus and all the kids are having covid parties to catch it anyways. He is also pushing the GOP BS about how Europe beat it by herd immunity and thats why they aren't getting a second wave. Didn't have the heart to tell him we are still in the first wave because of people like him and point out his many, many inaccuracies with his points on Europe.

As a Canadian, our best argument for wearing masks and a controlled opening of the economy is to just gesture southward.

As a Canadian, you should probably become a sovereign nation before comparing yourself to the US. Canada is like the child that never got married or had kids but pretends like it has moral high ground over the sibling that actually propagates the species forward. Your army is still under Queen Liz's control.


Canada has been fully sovereign since 1982. Liz is only Queen insofar as she is Queen of Canada, a wholly distinct title.
 
2020-07-21 11:56:40 AM  

G. Tarrant: The number of people doing work via Zoom/remotely/etc insisting that OTHER people put themselves at risk by going back to in-person work is staggering. It's like the feudal lords ordering the peasants into the fields from the safety of their castles during the plague.


i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-21 12:10:35 PM  

Kali-Ma: pkjun: Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.

This still essentially turns into punishing the parents for the teacher's benefit.  If I can't work full time, I should take the pay cut, but if the teacher isn't working full time, the teacher should still make full money? And don't tell me the teachers are working full-time - they didn't have any instruction time, offered no feedback on assignments, and didn't write the curriculum offered (elementary school).  They did next to nothing for 3 months while I went insane trying to keep my son busy, not lose my job, and worked extra.

This is also assuming that employer would allow you to reduce your hours (I assure you mine would not - they have been trying to give all kinds of sideways reasons ...


In the middle of a pandemic, if you can't work full-time, you shouldn't have to take a pay cut. The whole idea is that the government supplements wages so that you don't have to worry about paying bills and you can stay at home, keeping the risk of infection to a minimum. Many teachers did have a better deal at the end of the last school year than the rest of society. There's only so much a teacher can do when instruction is online. But that advantage wasn't chosen by the teachers, and it's gone now.

Instead of hating on teachers because we appear to have a slightly better deal than you (we don't. When the schools open back up, a profound number of us will get sick, suffer permanent health damage, and possibly die because kids are made of germs), how about you get mad at the Republican led government that gave $26K for every man, woman, and child to corporations with no oversight, and spent maybe $1200 on each adult to keep them from starving.
 
2020-07-21 12:23:20 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Teachers:  He'll no, we are not 'essential workers'.

OK, lay them off, hire replacements.


Good luck with suddenly finding millions of people who meet the credential requirements.
 
2020-07-21 12:23:53 PM  
People would rather stay home and get paid for doing nothing than going in and working? Who would have thought?
 
2020-07-21 1:00:38 PM  

Birnone: I think they, the Republican leaders of the state, are trying this because they are thinking that the people will turn against the teachers. I think the factors they are counting on are:
1. Parents need the schools open so with the kids in school the parents can go to work.
2. Teachers are unionized, with all associated benefits. In a time when lots are out of work, this can cause envy and resentment which Republicans can exploit.
3. People who are working might feel 'if I can still go to work, why can't teachers?'.
4. Some people think the virus is no big deal so those people will be against the teachers.

Who knows, it might work. I suspect that more parents will understand that this is a dangerous move though, and I don't think there will be an anti-teacher backlash.


Good assessment.

Of course, the Republican-run capital can also use this as an excuse to cut/eliminate public school funding and shutter the schools, thus opening the doors for more for-profit schools.

Capitalism at its finest (not really).
 
2020-07-21 1:09:49 PM  
I'm so tired of sharing the country with these troglodytes. We had 5 months to get this shiat under control, but because people refuse to put a mask over their pieholes or give up going to the bar for a while, shiat is more out of control than ever.

Sandy Hook showed that we, as a nation, are willing to do anything for our children, just as long as it doesn't slightly inconvenience a mouth-breather. So, yeah, sorry kiddos, this is the country you live in. There are no grown-ups willing to make hard choices or sacrifices for your benefit. As Donnie would say, "SAD!"
 
2020-07-21 1:19:55 PM  
I work in the school system (in Canada, not in Florida). We've been told to expect about ~10% - 15% of our maximum capacity until after a vaccine comes out and is distributed. I've talked to a number of parents who have said they'd send their kids to school but the kids' grandparent(s) live with them and have health issues.

VoiceOfReason499: I'm so tired of sharing the country with these troglodytes. We had 5 months to get this shiat under control, but because people refuse to put a mask over their pieholes or give up going to the bar for a while, shiat is more out of control than ever.


It reminds me of elementary school recess where the teacher would happily send the class if we could sit down and shut up... but there was always at least one class clown who just had to make everyone 5 - 7 minutes late for recess.
 
2020-07-21 1:29:31 PM  

Calamity Gin: Kali-Ma: pkjun: Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.

This still essentially turns into punishing the parents for the teacher's benefit.  If I can't work full time, I should take the pay cut, but if the teacher isn't working full time, the teacher should still make full money? And don't tell me the teachers are working full-time - they didn't have any instruction time, offered no feedback on assignments, and didn't write the curriculum offered (elementary school).  They did next to nothing for 3 months while I went insane trying to keep my son busy, not lose my job, and worked extra.

This is also assuming that employer would allow you to reduce your hours (I assure you mine would not - they have been trying to give all kinds of sideways ...


Sorry if you were focusing on the pay cut part (I don't actually care if the teachers still get paid - I was more responding to the comment that I should take a pay cut to do this while the teachers should just get whatever), my issue is that everyone acts like the parents have nothing to do/should just quit their jobs so they can become full time/part time teachers to their kids when a lot of us are in absolute dire straights trying to keep everything together from a time point of view.

Also, I'm in a district that will most likely stay closed through all of the 20-21 school year and possibly longer because the teacher's unions are really, really strong. A full year of elementary distance learning that falls entirely on my shoulders is going to be absolutely unbearable while working full time.  I was already doing 3 jobs (they reduced my department from 4 experienced lawyers and a database admin to me (a paralegal) and a dude who had some contracts experience as a VP of a lab company- oh, btw, we're one of the most well-respected, largest healthcare systems in the world so we're stupid busy).

There's no good answers to this and reiterating pipedreams of full government funding during this doesn't address the very real issue that this house of cards is going to come tumbling down at some point or another.
 
2020-07-21 1:30:07 PM  

pkjun: thrillbilly1967: work 182 days a year

lol


lol
 
2020-07-21 1:33:02 PM  

Kali-Ma: There's no good answers to this and reiterating pipedreams of full government funding during this doesn't address the very real issue that this house of cards is going to come tumbling down at some point or another.


Those "reiterating pipedreams" are how every other developed country on Earth has managed to successfully control the virus. Why can't America do what they can?
 
2020-07-21 1:41:49 PM  

Kali-Ma: Calamity Gin: Kali-Ma: pkjun: Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.

This still essentially turns into punishing the parents for the teacher's benefit.  If I can't work full time, I should take the pay cut, but if the teacher isn't working full time, the teacher should still make full money? And don't tell me the teachers are working full-time - they didn't have any instruction time, offered no feedback on assignments, and didn't write the curriculum offered (elementary school).  They did next to nothing for 3 months while I went insane trying to keep my son busy, not lose my job, and worked extra.

This is also assuming that employer would allow you to reduce your hours (I assure you mine would not - they have been trying to give all kin ...


Yeah, this whole "they have a better deal than I do, so fark them" is an incredibly toxic response that plays right into the hands of the 1%/GOP. You should be fighting to get at least as good a deal as teachers have, not trying to tear down what they've managed to do for themselves.

Your employer should put you on a reduced schedule with no pay cut so you can spend time with your kids. The government's (our) money should be put towards helping people stay home during the pandemic in healthy, responsible ways just like most of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and other 1st world countries did. School staff should be kept on the payroll without being forced to expose themselves and their loved ones to the incubators we know as children.

Stop fighting for the people who don't care if you live or die.
 
2020-07-21 1:51:33 PM  

Calamity Gin: Kali-Ma: Calamity Gin: Kali-Ma: pkjun: Kali-Ma: I don't care if he misses a year, that's fine, but the distance learning is something that most working families are not set up for and is nearly impossible to do with a demanding job. Most of us were already swamped doing the work of 2-3 employees because corporations refuse to hire enough people, then to add being a teacher to it is where parents get desperate.  And I can't afford to lose a decent paying job right now to spend 2-4 hours a day arguing with my 9 year old about how to do math.

So, you want to close for safety, fine, but this half-assed distance learning needs to end. Pay the teachers some sort of reduced furlough salary and we'll all extend these kids' educations out a year (because of the Maryland cutoff my son would be almost 20 when he graduates from high school).

Rather than further impoverish teachers because you're too time-poor to make sure your kid does schoolwork, wouldn't a better solution be for parents to work a reduced schedule, perhaps supported by government grants to employers, to enable them to better support their kids in their learning?

That way he could continue to learn and develop (after all, his brain isn't going to stop its development process just because schools are shut), and you wouldn't need to do a double shift.

This still essentially turns into punishing the parents for the teacher's benefit.  If I can't work full time, I should take the pay cut, but if the teacher isn't working full time, the teacher should still make full money? And don't tell me the teachers are working full-time - they didn't have any instruction time, offered no feedback on assignments, and didn't write the curriculum offered (elementary school).  They did next to nothing for 3 months while I went insane trying to keep my son busy, not lose my job, and worked extra.

This is also assuming that employer would allow you to reduce your hours (I assure you mine would not - they have been trying to giv ...


I'm not fighting for them, I'm fighting for myself on behalf of reality.  I don't care if you get paid, fine.  Don't give me things to do when I have other things to do. I can't do your job for you, you can't do my job for me. Cancel school, stay at home, collect a paycheck.  Don't give me 2-4 hours a day of work I don't have time to do. No corporate employer is going to let you reduce down to part time to take care of your kids.  I consider myself blessed that I was able to work from home at all.  This is reality.  There is not going to be a glorious revolution.  Reiterating how it *should* be is not productive. The US is not Europe, civilized Asia, or anywhere else.  It's America. We haven't figured out/demanded universal healthcare over the past 60 years. We not going to suddenly discover UBI or reasonable welfare programs either.

If you notice, at no point have I suggested opening school again or making teachers go in.  My point is that you can't give parents more stuff to do when they're struggling already. Consider the school year a loss, move on.
 
2020-07-21 1:54:43 PM  

MilesTeg: People would rather stay home and get paid for doing nothing than going in and working? Who would have thought?


Virtual teaching is "doing nothing"?

I see the schools have failed you.
 
2020-07-21 2:04:04 PM  

Kali-Ma: This is reality.  There is not going to be a glorious revolution.  Reiterating how it *should* be is not productive. The US is not Europe, civilized Asia, or anywhere else.


If that's the case, you're the reason why. You, along with everyone else like you: people who admit what needs to be done, but who oppose it out of the conviction it can't be done, with no reason for why it can't be done other than the opposition you yourself are a part of.

But I think you're wrong. Everything is impossible until it isn't. How many other places need to do the impossible before you say "yeah maybe that's not actually impossible"?
 
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