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(IOL.co.za)   German scientists schwabing recovered Covid patients for antibodies fear that those antibodies may not last long   (iol.co.za) divider line
    More: Misc, Immune system, Antibody, southern German city of Munich, coronavirus antibodies, Vaccination, Clemens Wendtner, recovered patients, Chinese researchers  
•       •       •

2066 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2020 at 7:30 AM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



44 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-07-13 5:02:08 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-13 6:33:08 AM  
Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.
 
2020-07-13 7:24:04 AM  
Half the population shows resistance already.
 
2020-07-13 7:32:30 AM  
Maybe we should focus on adapting to new conditions rather than clinging desperately to old habits.
 
2020-07-13 7:35:40 AM  
Not with that attitude they won't!
 
2020-07-13 7:35:51 AM  

Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.


Nobody said that a vaccine is out of the picture.

This isn't the first time we've created a vaccine to a virus that does that with regards to a fairly short lived immunity.  We know how to get around that.

That's why pretty much all the COVID-19 vaccines that are being developed are a multi-shot series, at least 2, maybe 3 shots given several weeks apart.  A series of vaccinations produces a much longer lasting immune reaction.
 
2020-07-13 7:37:04 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Half the population shows resistance already.


Fark user imageView Full Size


/Is this the new conservative talking point as to why we don't need quarantines and shutdowns?
 
2020-07-13 7:38:53 AM  

Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.


Good news
i.pinimg.comView Full Size

/not sure for what, though
 
2020-07-13 7:39:42 AM  
Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/​0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity
 
2020-07-13 7:43:17 AM  
More frequent vaccines so? At least it should slow down the spread
 
2020-07-13 7:43:17 AM  
A study showing a partial result with a n=9 wouldn't even make it past an initial review. Come back worth some real data and we'll talk then. Plus, as it seems everyone has forgotten, the type of immune response from the virus will be often smaller and less specific compared to any future vaccine.
 
2020-07-13 7:43:32 AM  

Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-13 7:44:27 AM  

RainDawg: Maybe we should focus on adapting to new conditions rather than clinging desperately to old habits.


Adapting to new conditions is what our immune system has been doing for the last 6000 years!
 
2020-07-13 7:46:44 AM  
The body's immune response is made up of both B-cells, responsible for secreting antibodies, and T-cells, capable of recognizing and killing previously recognized antigens.
Both are relevant for long-term immunity.


Don't panic.  The memory T-Cells can be far more important than the antibodies for a given disease.
Moreover, the specifics of the immune response vary on a person to person basis. So the rapid loss of antibodies does not mean a rapid loss of immunity. Further, as studies have show for Covid-19 antibodies, they are not highly derived. That means that there are as many mutations in them after recombination so that it seems like we can rapidly develop functional anti-Covid-19 antibodies.

The thing we need to watch is the rate of actual re-infection. It is apparently happening, but not very often. Re-infection is always a possibility. Immunity is not some toggle switch, some all or none thing.

By now, we've had almost 3 1/2 million documented infections in the US. That's 1% of us. So we'll be counting the numbers of people who get re-infected. If after 3 months you have a 1% chance of being re-infected, we can go back and look at how many were know to be infected 3 months ago and expect to find 1% of them re-infected. We hit 1 million cases on April 27.

The next part of the math gets slightly complicated but you have to ask what percentage of new infections over-all are among those who were previously infected. You compare that to what percent were infected X months in the past and you get a number that tells us how protected the average person is.

I haven't done the math but the numbers of people re-infected so far are very very low. Low enough that it's clear that there is significant protection at least for the time frame we've experienced. If immunity is lost, it will be gradual, not an all at once thing.

So don't panic. Related coronavirus immunity lasts for a few years for the average person. There's no obvious reason this should be that different.
 
2020-07-13 7:49:29 AM  

BafflerMeal: Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity

[Fark user image 425x382]


interesting take on the meme, but what are you even trying to communicate?
 
2020-07-13 7:51:32 AM  

foo monkey: RainDawg: Maybe we should focus on adapting to new conditions rather than clinging desperately to old habits.

Adapting to new conditions is what our immune system has been doing for the last 6000 years!


Since before Noah, eh?
 
2020-07-13 7:53:30 AM  
Charles Schwabing?
 
2020-07-13 7:58:58 AM  

Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity


Both your article and the iol.co article really make the point that we're still at the beginning of this and have a lot to learn
 
2020-07-13 8:00:11 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Half the population shows resistance already.


The other half are in denial.
 
2020-07-13 8:01:17 AM  

Kazan: BafflerMeal: Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity

[Fark user image 425x382]

interesting take on the meme, but what are you even trying to communicate?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-13 8:03:21 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Schwabing
 
2020-07-13 8:06:26 AM  
I am impressed the Germans have an entire research center devoted to swabbing samples. Next thing you are gonna tell me they have a research center devoted to temperature taking and another to blood draw and another for rest and plenty of fluids.
 
2020-07-13 8:07:30 AM  
There'll be a vaccine, but you'll have to get booster shots 4 times a year.  A few years of that may lead to the virus "burning out" and it being far less of a threat.

Eventually, we'll have a long term vaccine, and it'll be part of everyone's childhood inoculations.
 
2020-07-13 8:09:41 AM  

Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.


Right now NIH has exactly one "rolling submission" NIAID funding  opportunity for any appreciable $$ (as an R01).

I work in a coronavirus collaborative research group and we're struggling to:

1) find any funding that could go towards a multi-PI effort,
2) more samples.  It's hard to collect covid-19 samples besides blood or swabs. This is b/c of clinical and logistic roadblocks.
3) get a working partnership with a appropriately rated containment lab for contagious sample prep...the level 3 labs are nuts now
4) decent animal or cell line models. Guinea pigs are ok to use as COV-2 subjects but they don't get as sick and recover quickly.  Human cell lines lack a systemic immune system among other things.
5) enough coronavirologists. Most work in the earlier SARS outbreak was kind of tucked back in the late 2000s  and still don't  have enough researchers available.

TLDR:  There just isn't funding for scientists to tackle this.

There's money to companies with possible vaccines ...but we have no idea how the disease eventually kills you..why 2weeks? Why long term symptoms, neurological involvement, clotting?

Vaccine or not It would be good if they threw money in both directions.

We never figured much out from SARS either, or MERS.  Without more active funding programs I think we're still going to be in the dark in a years time. And probably no vaccine but I'm pessimistic by education and by nature.
 
2020-07-13 8:29:47 AM  

Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.


We may not want it
cdn.quotesgram.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-13 8:30:13 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Half the population shows resistance already.


to wearing masks?
 
2020-07-13 8:31:20 AM  
Germany: Incarcerate us for a long as it takes to gain knowledge about this terrible disease.

America,: Ah got a first amendment right to wontonly spread disease every senior citizen, child, and pregnant woman in America cuz Q said there demonrats they're tryin' ta take ar' guns! :::cough, cough::: it's a hoax!
 
2020-07-13 8:32:03 AM  

TheSwizz: Kazan: BafflerMeal: Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity

[Fark user image 425x382]

interesting take on the meme, but what are you even trying to communicate?

[Fark user image 850x478]


I'm getting tired of the alarmist articles about active antigen persistence, which really have little or nothing to do with long term immunity against a disease, being used to fear monger.  COVID is a serious enough as it is, we don't need this shiat.
 
2020-07-13 8:44:04 AM  

Invisible Obama: Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.

Nobody said that a vaccine is out of the picture.

This isn't the first time we've created a vaccine to a virus that does that with regards to a fairly short lived immunity.  We know how to get around that.

That's why pretty much all the COVID-19 vaccines that are being developed are a multi-shot series, at least 2, maybe 3 shots given several weeks apart.  A series of vaccinations produces a much longer lasting immune reaction.


I wouldn't be surprised if the "final" vaccine has several components, including one to stimulate memory T-cells.  Immunity isn't just antibody levels, it's also enhanced response times to new infections.
 
2020-07-13 8:47:12 AM  

Kazan: I'm getting tired of the alarmist articles about active antigen persistence, which really have little or nothing to do with long term immunity against a disease, being used to fear monger.  COVID is a serious enough as it is, we don't need this shiat.


Absolutely this. The fundamental argument, when you strip away the pseudo-science, claiming limited immunity has been mentioned in the U.K. a bit back, and then quietly disappeared.

'Society' (read, government) is afraid that if there is lasting immunity people will demand 'immunity passports' (feel free to search the term, you'll find the background) which would result in an 'unfair, two-tiered society'.

So the immunity denial is not about science (science can't prove the lack of existence of something, and knows even modern vaccines aren't 100%), it's about making sure 'everyone is the same, at the lowest common denominator'.
 
2020-07-13 8:57:01 AM  
I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.
 
2020-07-13 9:00:55 AM  

TheGreatGazoo: I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.


You weighed the same as a duck?

Burn the witch!
 
2020-07-13 9:06:00 AM  

Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.


Its not out of the picture.

The Danish government has developed a vaccine, and are starting human testing in the fall, after being done testing on mice.

What they found is that, in mice, the vaccine produces far more antibodies, than someone would from a normal infection.

Maybe you'd still need a shoot each year, if it keeps mutating.
 
2020-07-13 9:13:19 AM  

Kazan: TheSwizz: Kazan: BafflerMeal: Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity

[Fark user image 425x382]

interesting take on the meme, but what are you even trying to communicate?

[Fark user image 850x478]

I'm getting tired of the alarmist articles about active antigen persistence, which really have little or nothing to do with long term immunity against a disease, being used to fear monger.  COVID is a serious enough as it is, we don't need this shiat.


B-list celebs are getting Covid-19 more than once.  Pretty fit ones at that.  There's always a chance that supplemental hormones predispose people to recurrent infection, but by now there have been hundreds of PCR,-confirmed instances of reinfection so I wouldn't call it fear mongering at all.  This is the reality we are all subject to.
 
2020-07-13 9:54:11 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: B-list celebs are getting Covid-19 more than once.  Pretty fit ones at that.  There's always a chance that supplemental hormones predispose people to recurrent infection, but by now there have been hundreds of PCR,-confirmed instances of reinfection so I wouldn't call it fear mongering at all.  This is the reality we are all subject to.


No, there haven't. the "reinfection" cases have shown to be bad testing. that's also a piece of fear mongering i'm tired of.

zgrizz: Kazan: I'm getting tired of the alarmist articles about active antigen persistence, which really have little or nothing to do with long term immunity against a disease, being used to fear monger.  COVID is a serious enough as it is, we don't need this shiat.

Absolutely this. The fundamental argument, when you strip away the pseudo-science, claiming limited immunity has been mentioned in the U.K. a bit back, and then quietly disappeared.

'Society' (read, government) is afraid that if there is lasting immunity people will demand 'immunity passports' (feel free to search the term, you'll find the background) which would result in an 'unfair, two-tiered society'.

So the immunity denial is not about science (science can't prove the lack of existence of something, and knows even modern vaccines aren't 100%), it's about making sure 'everyone is the same, at the lowest common denominator'.


oh shut up with the conspiracy theory. it's just media being sensationalist fearmongering for clicks.
 
2020-07-13 10:41:47 AM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Nidiot: Oh great, we can just keep getting corona-19 until we die.

Maybe, if a vaccine is out of the picture we should look harder for a cure.

Right now NIH has exactly one "rolling submission" NIAID funding  opportunity for any appreciable $$ (as an R01).

I work in a coronavirus collaborative research group and we're struggling to:

1) find any funding that could go towards a multi-PI effort,
2) more samples.  It's hard to collect covid-19 samples besides blood or swabs. This is b/c of clinical and logistic roadblocks.
3) get a working partnership with a appropriately rated containment lab for contagious sample prep...the level 3 labs are nuts now
4) decent animal or cell line models. Guinea pigs are ok to use as COV-2 subjects but they don't get as sick and recover quickly.  Human cell lines lack a systemic immune system among other things.
5) enough coronavirologists. Most work in the earlier SARS outbreak was kind of tucked back in the late 2000s  and still don't  have enough researchers available.

TLDR:  There just isn't funding for scientists to tackle this.

There's money to companies with possible vaccines ...but we have no idea how the disease eventually kills you..why 2weeks? Why long term symptoms, neurological involvement, clotting?

Vaccine or not It would be good if they threw money in both directions.

We never figured much out from SARS either, or MERS.  Without more active funding programs I think we're still going to be in the dark in a years time. And probably no vaccine but I'm pessimistic by education and by nature.



Thanks for posting this. I wish more people would read it and understand the fundamental difference between SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY.

It's hard to go straight to the technical application if no one has done the farking science first.

This is why it is important to fund basic science. We need to understand something before we can be effective. However, no one wants to do that because it doesn't increase shareholder value.
 
2020-07-13 11:16:14 AM  

jfclark27: TheGreatGazoo: I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.

You weighed the same as a duck?

Burn the witch!


Duck Test
 
2020-07-13 11:31:56 AM  

wademh:

The body's immune response is made up of both B-cells, responsible for secreting antibodies, and T-cells, capable of recognizing and killing previously recognized antigens.
Both are relevant for long-term immunity.


Don't panic.  The memory T-Cells can be far more important than the antibodies for a given disease.
Moreover, the specifics of the immune response vary on a person to person basis. So the rapid loss of antibodies does not mean a rapid loss of immunity. Further, as studies have show for Covid-19 antibodies, they are not highly derived. That means that there are as many mutations in them after recombination so that it seems like we can rapidly develop functional anti-Covid-19 antibodies.

The thing we need to watch is the rate of actual re-infection. It is apparently happening, but not very often. Re-infection is always a possibility. Immunity is not some toggle switch, some all or none thing.

By now, we've had almost 3 1/2 million documented infections in the US. That's 1% of us. So we'll be counting the numbers of people who get re-infected. If after 3 months you have a 1% chance of being re-infected, we can go back and look at how many were know to be infected 3 months ago and expect to find 1% of them re-infected. We hit 1 million cases on April 27.

The next part of the math gets slightly complicated but you have to ask what percentage of new infections over-all are among those who were previously infected. You compare that to what percent were infected X months in the past and you get a number that tells us how protected the average person is.

I haven't done the math but the numbers of people re-infected so far are very very low. Low enough that it's clear that there is significant protection at least for the time frame we've experienced. If immunity is lost, it will be gradual, not an all at once thing.

So don't panic. Related coronavirus immunity lasts for a few years for the average person. There's no obvious reason this should be that different.


Thank you for this thourough explanation.
 
2020-07-13 11:44:28 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: Kazan: TheSwizz: Kazan: BafflerMeal: Kazan: Persistence of active antibodies isn't the big factor for sustained immunity. The development of Immune Memory cells is what matters.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/0​5/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode​-well-long-term-immunity

[Fark user image 425x382]

interesting take on the meme, but what are you even trying to communicate?

[Fark user image 850x478]

I'm getting tired of the alarmist articles about active antigen persistence, which really have little or nothing to do with long term immunity against a disease, being used to fear monger.  COVID is a serious enough as it is, we don't need this shiat.

B-list celebs are getting Covid-19 more than once.  Pretty fit ones at that.  There's always a chance that supplemental hormones predispose people to recurrent infection, but by now there have been hundreds of PCR,-confirmed instances of reinfection so I wouldn't call it fear mongering at all.  This is the reality we are all subject to.


You've been corrected already but as usual, you are wrong.

One must be very careful about confusing a positive PCR test with reinfection.

PCR is a very sensitive molecular test that will detect virus fragments as well as virus. It has been documented that almost all positive tests after about 4 weeks are to people where they cannot detect colony forming units. That's assay jargon for a test where they attempt to grow virus from samples taken from a patient. In an infectious person they can cultivate virus colonies. They measure how much infectious virus is being shed by the number of virus colonies that they can seed --- colony forming units.

Next time, consider not mouthing off when you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
 
2020-07-13 12:59:50 PM  
If I had survived covid, not only would I donate my antibody-rich blood for others, I would bank that shiat for myself for a possible future reinfection.
 
2020-07-13 1:00:26 PM  

jfclark27: TheGreatGazoo: I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.

You weighed the same as a duck?

Burn the witch!


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-13 2:33:14 PM  

BitwiseShift: jfclark27: TheGreatGazoo: I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.

You weighed the same as a duck?

Burn the witch!

[Fark user image 425x531]


Translation:

"The Fire devil

A President sets his land on fire"
 
2020-07-13 2:42:04 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: jfclark27: TheGreatGazoo: I had Covid back in early April according to the Duck test.  I just got an antibody test and didn't have any.

You weighed the same as a duck?

Burn the witch!

Duck Test


http://www.montypython.net/scripts/HG​-​witchscene.php

Now that's a duck test...
 
2020-07-13 3:52:33 PM  

Invisible Obama: Marcus Aurelius: Half the population shows resistance already.

[Fark user image image 350x190]

/Is this the new conservative talking point as to why we don't need quarantines and shutdowns?


I'm sure it was intended as resistance to doing anything about it. Like wearing masks.
/got nothin
 
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