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(ZDNet)   Linus Torvalds, Master of Linux, signs off on new names for all you slaves   (zdnet.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Linux, Linux kernel code, Linus Torvalds, new terms, Linux developers, Free software, tech companies, Linux team  
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2172 clicks; posted to Geek » on 11 Jul 2020 at 3:40 PM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-11 1:18:40 PM  
Yes, but what does the real controlling force of modern Linux think (Lennart Poettering)?
 
2020-07-11 1:39:12 PM  
I am expecting some 'traditionalist' neckbeards will fork into yet another distro that retains the historical naming conventions.  Because of course they're going to.

Tongue-in-cheek time:  Maybe they should also address the real elephant in the room - the heteronormative decision to use binary as the basis for all of computing.  Its 2020 people, time to wake up.
 
2020-07-11 2:15:18 PM  
Yay, more cosmetic bullshiat that doesn't address real problems in the industry.
 
2020-07-11 2:24:39 PM  

IlGreven: Yay, more cosmetic bullshiat that doesn't address real problems in the industry.



A just machine to make big decisions

Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision

We'll be clean when their work is done

We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young

IGY -- Donald Fagen

 
2020-07-11 2:35:12 PM  
I've avoided the terms Master/Slave for years just because of the BDSM connotations (which rumor has it is the actual inspiration for the computing terminology).
 
2020-07-11 3:45:15 PM  
Oh, for fark's sake. And when the winds of petty bullshiat change, will this week's acceptable term be excised too?
 
2020-07-11 3:49:09 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: IlGreven: Yay, more cosmetic bullshiat that doesn't address real problems in the industry.

A just machine to make big decisions
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision
We'll be clean when their work is done
We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young
IGY -- Donald Fagen


..Get your ticket to that wheel in space
While there's time
The fix is in
 
2020-07-11 3:56:39 PM  

Enigmamf: I've avoided the terms Master/Slave for years just because of the BDSM connotations (which rumor has it is the actual inspiration for the computing terminology).


I've met at least one Linux user who organizes their bondage ropes based on length using the resistor color code.

/it was at a public user group meeting, you pervs.
//now I have to change all my PATA IDE devices to "cable select" setting.
///https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/​mast​erslave/
 
2020-07-11 4:05:01 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Tongue-in-cheek time:  Maybe they should also address the real elephant in the room - the heteronormative decision to use binary as the basis for all of computing.  Its 2020 people, time to wake up.


There's No Such Thing As Two
Youtube aAwJlD-m_hE
 
2020-07-11 4:15:00 PM  

Enigmamf: I've avoided the terms Master/Slave for years just because of the BDSM connotations (which rumor has it is the actual inspiration for the computing terminology).


yeah, I was learning from VMware stuff five years ago that used those terms and it seemed dated at that time. Regardless of its origin story.

That is a good combo to leave behind, but doing it now is just going to make some people feel like it's some kind of piling on or grandstanding.
 
2020-07-11 4:15:12 PM  
Depeche Mode - Master And Servant (Official Video)
Youtube IsvfofcIE1Q
 
2020-07-11 4:16:37 PM  
There's no hope for billiards. White ball smashing a bunch of colored and mixed color balls. Ends with a death match between white and black, winner take all.

Bowling makes up for it?
 
2020-07-11 4:17:32 PM  

IlGreven: Yay, more cosmetic bullshiat that doesn't address real problems in the industry.


Or in society is general.
 
2020-07-11 4:18:36 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Oh, for fark's sake. And when the winds of petty bullshiat change, will this week's acceptable term be excised too?


Petty bullshiat is still bullshiat. And it piles up, because no one can be bothered to fix it, because it's petty. In fact, you could argue that the failure to fix petty bullshiat is the primary reason things go to hell. In *every* endeavor.

I have no problem with this.
 
2020-07-11 4:38:02 PM  

realmolo: Ed Grubermann: Oh, for fark's sake. And when the winds of petty bullshiat change, will this week's acceptable term be excised too?

Petty bullshiat is still bullshiat. And it piles up, because no one can be bothered to fix it, because it's petty. In fact, you could argue that the failure to fix petty bullshiat is the primary reason things go to hell. In *every* endeavor.

I have no problem with this.


I get the master/slave. But blacklist and whitelist? We might as well ban all references to colour at this point.
 
2020-07-11 5:14:25 PM  
CSB:

The CAO of our org asked the CTO if the terms 'whitelist' and 'Blacklist' could not be used in notification messages from our Anti- Spam box (Barracuda, I believe)

Vendor says it's not possible with our software version, so of course the workaround was just to disable notifications of quarantined message.

Even though I haven't had a false positive for Antispam in over a decade, I still had to shake my head at our solution.

It is probably just a text file somewhere on that appliance, but I hate tinkering around with black boxes (Snert) in production.
 
2020-07-11 5:25:01 PM  
Are we going to do the same thing for vehicles?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_​c​ylinder
 
2020-07-11 5:38:24 PM  
Good.  I've always liked subordinate.  That's what I call the City Manager when I complain to Council.
 
2020-07-11 5:42:35 PM  

BumpInTheNight: I am expecting some 'traditionalist' neckbeards will fork into yet another distro that retains the historical naming conventions.  Because of course they're going to.

Tongue-in-cheek time:  Maybe they should also address the real elephant in the room - the heteronormative decision to use binary as the basis for all of computing.  Its 2020 people, time to wake up.


as soon as we have true quantum computing, we will.
 
2020-07-11 5:44:33 PM  

Nexzus: CSB:

The CAO of our org asked the CTO if the terms 'whitelist' and 'Blacklist' could not be used in notification messages from our Anti- Spam box (Barracuda, I believe)

Vendor says it's not possible with our software version, so of course the workaround was just to disable notifications of quarantined message.

Even though I haven't had a false positive for Antispam in over a decade, I still had to shake my head at our solution.

It is probably just a text file somewhere on that appliance, but I hate tinkering around with black boxes (Snert) in production.


if it's hosted on a hypervisor, you could clone the appliance VM and tinker. If you figure it out, plan a downtime, then swap the original for the clone.
 
2020-07-11 6:00:09 PM  
Meh, I'm not against changing terms but I hardly think this is at the top of the list for the BLM movement. This feels more like a feel good move by white people to show "see how supportive we are, we did something" and allow them to pat themselves on the back and then proceed to move on without giving anything else a second thought... after all how can they do more than make a change that has no practical implications but makes them feel better.

There are much bigger issues and I am very weary of people changing terms like Master/Slave when all they are used for is to describe a relationship between inanimate objects and have no direct tie to slavery or racism. It's not like they termed the Master and Slave drives as a reminder to black people of their place in life. Confederate statues on the other hand were put up to do exactly that which is why they are a primary focus right now, along with, you know, ending systemic racism in our police forces and policy.
 
2020-07-11 6:08:14 PM  
I'm okay with this.
Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
 
2020-07-11 6:08:46 PM  
"blacklist/whitelist" to "blocklist/passlist" seems perfectly sensible, but the listed alternatives to "master/slave" all seem a bit contrived.

Why wasn't "CEO/peon" listed?
 
2020-07-11 6:09:43 PM  

DerAppie: I get the master/slave. But blacklist and whitelist? We might as well ban all references to colour at this point.


Honestly, though, "blacklist/whitelist" is really dumb terminology, even if you ignore any overtones.

It's like "type-I errors/type-II errors" --- there's nothing about the language that clearly tells you which is which, or what they do or what they're for.

For years, in my security engineering class I've used the terms "ban-listing" and "admit-listing", because that directly tells you what you're doing:  you're banning things on list X, you're admitting things on list Y.  I've done this both because I felt uncomfortable using the term "blacklist" as a list of bad things to ban, but also because it's a taxonomically stupid term for a list of bad things to ban.

However, I hate telling the kids that we're going to say XYZ because I think it's better, when people in industry say PDQ.   Now I can use denylist/allowlist or blocklist/passlist, and tell the students that this is the language currently adopted by kernel developers.
 
2020-07-11 6:12:11 PM  
We've been using "parent/child" for a bit in warehouses, people understand it just fine.

Sure, it doesn't solve the core problem.  But one should still pick up litter on the sidewalk while on the way to set up a guillotine at the State House.
 
2020-07-11 6:19:53 PM  

SansNeural: "blacklist/whitelist" to "blocklist/passlist" seems perfectly sensible, but the listed alternatives to "master/slave" all seem a bit contrived.

Why wasn't "CEO/peon" listed?


At least we're dealing with this now, just imagine if we'd left it to the gen zs, they'd probably pick some stupid crap like "Influencer / Subscribers".
 
DVD
2020-07-11 6:42:17 PM  

BumpInTheNight: SansNeural: "blacklist/whitelist" to "blocklist/passlist" seems perfectly sensible, but the listed alternatives to "master/slave" all seem a bit contrived.

Why wasn't "CEO/peon" listed?

At least we're dealing with this now, just imagine if we'd left it to the gen zs, they'd probably pick some stupid crap like "Influencer / Subscribers".


Keep picking on the Gen Zs.  See what happens.  It's a little like picking on nerds in the 70s and 80s, but for a different reason.  With the nerds, it was because their intelligence made it more likely that they'd be your boss at work.

With the Gen Zs, it's because they've already been through a lot of fire.  When it comes to stress, our grade-schoolers and high-schoolers are veterans, and many have seen that the solution has been to become active leaders.  This can succeed or fall on its face, but it all is a tremendous learning experience for them, to be built upon as they go farther into life.

They also are likely to be your boss if you're not an early Xer or Boomer, simply because they're more likely to step up and shine or fail.

This video is a grouping of experiences put into one advert, but it represents all too well.  Oh, and now the kids get to go to school in a pandemic along with the still-present threat of nuts shooting up the place.

Sandy Hook Promise - I am NOT going to forget the last 2 decades.
 
2020-07-11 6:54:13 PM  

DVD: Keep picking on the Gen Zs. See what happens.


They might just wind up like some Gen Xers and Millenials, all whining about their newly identified neuroses and how the traumatic things in their youth have brought them to their knees.

We've had generations live through revolution, slavery, civil war, world war, The Depression, more world war, Korea, Vietnam and more.  OMG, no wonder we're *all* such wussies!
 
2020-07-11 7:03:45 PM  
(trying to picture how many million pages of documentation this affects in theory)

Plus there's a few zillion RFC's, IEEE standards and integrated circuit datasheets that have been around since the 1970's that use master / slave terminology.
 
2020-07-11 7:16:20 PM  
I don't see the problem using the term slave as we will all be slaves to the computers in the near future.
 
2020-07-11 7:19:33 PM  

maxheck: (trying to picture how many million pages of documentation this affects in theory)

Plus there's a few zillion RFC's, IEEE standards and integrated circuit datasheets that have been around since the 1970's that use master / slave terminology.


Fortunately for the Linux kernel maintainers, they're not responsible for any of that.  For the kernel, I imagine that new pull requests will have to pass the new muster, but cleanups to existing language won't happen on their own merit.  Maaaaaybe if a PC crusader wants to grep the source and flood Torvalds and friends with pull requests to fix existing violations, a few will get through.  But Linus has been pretty regular about accepting functional improvements only.
 
2020-07-11 7:35:34 PM  
The term "slave" means what it says.   A process or piece of hardware completely controlled by something else.   It doesn't do any global thinking on its own.

It isn't really racist, because there have been slaves of all races throughout history, including cultures that had far more slaves than America ever did.

"Leader" and "follower" would work I guess.

/As a software engineer I've been using "coordinator" and "worker" since forever.
 
2020-07-11 7:40:21 PM  

keldaria: It's not like they termed the Master and Slave drives as a reminder to black people of their place in life. Confederate statues on the other hand were put up to do exactly that which is why they are a primary focus right now, along with, you know, ending systemic racism in our police forces and policy.


If intent were enough to take down statues, the giant Easter Cross in San Diego, originally put up as a reminder that La Jolla was a white protestant Christian neighborhood (a fact enforced by real-estate covenants until UC San Diego was built in the 60s), would have been torn down loooong ago.
 
2020-07-11 7:48:54 PM  

SansNeural: maxheck: (trying to picture how many million pages of documentation this affects in theory)

Plus there's a few zillion RFC's, IEEE standards and integrated circuit datasheets that have been around since the 1970's that use master / slave terminology.

Fortunately for the Linux kernel maintainers, they're not responsible for any of that.  For the kernel, I imagine that new pull requests will have to pass the new muster, but cleanups to existing language won't happen on their own merit.  Maaaaaybe if a PC crusader wants to grep the source and flood Torvalds and friends with pull requests to fix existing violations, a few will get through.  But Linus has been pretty regular about accepting functional improvements only.


If he wants to fix a term, "pull request" is at the top of my list.  I think it is related to the Finnish concept and phrase "will you borrow me $10?" where the direction of the implied subject is the wrong way.  Finns who use mostly Swedish do that too but Swedes don't for some strange reason.  It makes sense in a very Latin sort way but is way too hard to explain to too many people.  Maybe we can get a German to name it and then translate whatever long word they come up with to a simpler English word.
 
2020-07-11 7:52:38 PM  

DON.MAC: Maybe we can get a German to name it and then translate whatever long word they come up with to a simpler English word.


"Ueber" and "Undesirable"?
 
2020-07-11 7:54:56 PM  
Sorry, that was an answer to a not-the-question-you-asked.
 
2020-07-11 8:01:51 PM  

DON.MAC: SansNeural: maxheck: (trying to picture how many million pages of documentation this affects in theory)

Plus there's a few zillion RFC's, IEEE standards and integrated circuit datasheets that have been around since the 1970's that use master / slave terminology.

Fortunately for the Linux kernel maintainers, they're not responsible for any of that.  For the kernel, I imagine that new pull requests will have to pass the new muster, but cleanups to existing language won't happen on their own merit.  Maaaaaybe if a PC crusader wants to grep the source and flood Torvalds and friends with pull requests to fix existing violations, a few will get through.  But Linus has been pretty regular about accepting functional improvements only.

If he wants to fix a term, "pull request" is at the top of my list.  I think it is related to the Finnish concept and phrase "will you borrow me $10?" where the direction of the implied subject is the wrong way.  Finns who use mostly Swedish do that too but Swedes don't for some strange reason.  It makes sense in a very Latin sort way but is way too hard to explain to too many people.  Maybe we can get a German to name it and then translate whatever long word they come up with to a simpler English word.


It makes perfect sense to me. You push commits to and pull commits from a remote; and the request is for them to pull from your remote. Since they're performing the action, they are pulling, and you are requesting that they do so.
 
2020-07-11 8:05:31 PM  

Xcott: DerAppie: I get the master/slave. But blacklist and whitelist? We might as well ban all references to colour at this point.

Honestly, though, "blacklist/whitelist" is really dumb terminology, even if you ignore any overtones.

It's like "type-I errors/type-II errors" --- there's nothing about the language that clearly tells you which is which, or what they do or what they're for.

For years, in my security engineering class I've used the terms "ban-listing" and "admit-listing", because that directly tells you what you're doing:  you're banning things on list X, you're admitting things on list Y.


The term "black list" is almost 400 years old and is in no way an obscure term. You can assume people know what it means. If they don't, you might as well assume they don't know what a "ban list" is.

/Typ I and Type II error are technical terms which aren't in popular use so I'd pick false positive and false negative when speaking to people
 
2020-07-11 8:36:27 PM  

rightClick: yeah, I was learning from VMware stuff five years ago that used those terms and it seemed dated at that time


You don't really see it outside of software development anymore. Most sysadmins would have last seen it during hard drive assignments, and with the advent of SATA and SAS you don't need it.
 
2020-07-11 8:53:38 PM  

DON.MAC: SansNeural: maxheck: (trying to picture how many million pages of documentation this affects in theory)

Plus there's a few zillion RFC's, IEEE standards and integrated circuit datasheets that have been around since the 1970's that use master / slave terminology.

Fortunately for the Linux kernel maintainers, they're not responsible for any of that.  For the kernel, I imagine that new pull requests will have to pass the new muster, but cleanups to existing language won't happen on their own merit.  Maaaaaybe if a PC crusader wants to grep the source and flood Torvalds and friends with pull requests to fix existing violations, a few will get through.  But Linus has been pretty regular about accepting functional improvements only.

If he wants to fix a term, "pull request" is at the top of my list.  I think it is related to the Finnish concept and phrase "will you borrow me $10?" where the direction of the implied subject is the wrong way.  Finns who use mostly Swedish do that too but Swedes don't for some strange reason.  It makes sense in a very Latin sort way but is way too hard to explain to too many people.  Maybe we can get a German to name it and then translate whatever long word they come up with to a simpler English word.


First they came for the Finns, and I did nothing.
 
2020-07-11 8:53:58 PM  

Lsherm: rightClick: yeah, I was learning from VMware stuff five years ago that used those terms and it seemed dated at that time

You don't really see it outside of software development anymore. Most sysadmins would have last seen it during hard drive assignments, and with the advent of SATA and SAS you don't need it.


Still see it once in a while for clustered appliances doing fail-over setups, like pairs of firewalls and what not.
 
2020-07-11 9:09:12 PM  
"Penis" and "vagina"?
Hell, a lot of you guys already have HDDs named "penis" and "vagina".
 
2020-07-11 10:43:03 PM  

soze: We've been using "parent/child" for a bit in warehouses, people understand it just fine.

Sure, it doesn't solve the core problem.  But one should still pick up litter on the sidewalk while on the way to set up a guillotine at the State House.


What about orphans, you bastard?  What about orphans?
 
2020-07-11 11:14:09 PM  
As a literal linux greybeard, I approve of all of this.
 
2020-07-11 11:22:09 PM  
DerAppie:

I get the master/slave. But blacklist and whitelist? We might as well ban all references to colour at this point.

You know what you might as well.

People.. sorry... I meant whinging ass lil b*tches who can't accept their own crappy life and already can't handle things like... WORDS... once they're done whitewashing (pun intended) our vocabulary they'll go after the next thing they can't handle.... and it'll probably be colors... or sounds.

Sticks and stones may brake my bones but words... well they'll just fark a millennial right on up!

// bless their hearts
 
2020-07-11 11:29:26 PM  
Any word on male/female connector?
 
2020-07-12 12:07:38 AM  
Well, most of master/slave "terminology" does not really describe the architecture in question adequately anyway, so it ain't a huge loss.
 
2020-07-12 1:09:34 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-12 4:05:53 AM  

jso2897: "Penis" and "vagina"?
Hell, a lot of you guys already have HDDs named "penis" and "vagina".


I hadn't, but the night is young.
 
2020-07-12 4:07:32 AM  

Porous Horace: Any word on male/female connector?


No, but it is almost a certainty that we're going to have to rename those as well.

"What was the gender assigned to you on your date of manufacture?"
 
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