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(Independent)   "In other words, are we looking at another Treasure Fleet moment right now, and failing to see the danger of elite-driven rentier mercantilism?" Or perhaps the problem is that we don't happen to have any eunuch admirals around   (independent.co.uk) divider line
    More: Interesting  
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1730 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Jul 2020 at 12:52 PM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



17 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-07-08 11:34:23 AM  
"Few people in the West realise how economically and technologically advanced China was by the 1400s. The Treasure Fleet was vast -- some vessels were up to 120 metres long. (Christopher Columbus's Santa Maria was only 19 metres.) A Chinese ship might have several decks inside it, up to nine masts, twelve sails, and contain luxurious staterooms and balconies, with a crew of up to 1,500, according to one description. On one journey, 317 of these ships set sail at once."

Dayum.
 
2020-07-08 11:44:02 AM  

Harlee: "Few people in the West realise how economically and technologically advanced China was by the 1400s. The Treasure Fleet was vast -- some vessels were up to 120 metres long. (Christopher Columbus's Santa Maria was only 19 metres.) A Chinese ship might have several decks inside it, up to nine masts, twelve sails, and contain luxurious staterooms and balconies, with a crew of up to 1,500, according to one description. On one journey, 317 of these ships set sail at once."

Dayum.


Meh. They sound like junk.
 
2020-07-08 12:03:50 PM  
Well, golly.  Did y'all know The Independent is owned by Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ind​e​pendent


On 25 March 2010, Independent News & Media sold the newspaper to Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev ...  In 2009, Lebedev had bought a controlling stake in the London Evening Standard. Two weeks later, editor Roger Alton resigned.[17]

/ was news to me.
// spread the word
/// third slashie hates how the sausage is made
 
2020-07-08 12:15:50 PM  
"When China Ruled the Seas" by Louise Levathes is a good elaboration for anybody interested in learning more.
 
2020-07-08 12:15:58 PM  
I don't really see the connection between the treasure fleet and Trump, beyond very, very generalized ideas about trade protectionism being the enemy of prosperity that particularly does not serve working classes.  And that's a pretty simple point that you really don't need an extended analogy to 15th century China to prove.

The better history is probably that navies are stupidly expensive, and always have been.  So if you're bleeding wealth in a protracted war against the Mongols, you could probably shore up your credit lines culling a few hundred of your century's super-carriers.

Navies being stupidly expensive is its own problem that we have yet to solve. That's why we have invested so much time and money into "concurrency," the Navy's plan to develop new ship technology as you're building the ship.  It was never a good idea.  But it was an attempt to answer the problem of building a ship with today's technology that is obsolete almost as soon as it's done being built.  It's also why the U.S. Navy will never, ever hit its fleet-size goals.
 
2020-07-08 12:56:25 PM  

Nuuu: I don't really see the connection between the treasure fleet and Trump, beyond very, very generalized ideas about trade protectionism being the enemy of prosperity that particularly does not serve working classes.  And that's a pretty simple point that you really don't need an extended analogy to 15th century China to prove.

The better history is probably that navies are stupidly expensive, and always have been.  So if you're bleeding wealth in a protracted war against the Mongols, you could probably shore up your credit lines culling a few hundred of your century's super-carriers.

Navies being stupidly expensive is its own problem that we have yet to solve. That's why we have invested so much time and money into "concurrency," the Navy's plan to develop new ship technology as you're building the ship.  It was never a good idea.  But it was an attempt to answer the problem of building a ship with today's technology that is obsolete almost as soon as it's done being built.  It's also why the U.S. Navy will never, ever hit its fleet-size goals.


Yeah, this. fark this articl . Navies are stupid expensive and those ships sounded ridiculous. Spain bankrupted themselves, essentially, by building their nearly useless armada.
 
2020-07-08 1:01:40 PM  
I am not currently seeing any evidence of testes among the General staff following the bounties revelation.  Castrati if not eunuchs.
 
2020-07-08 1:01:49 PM  

snowblur: Well, golly.  Did y'all know The Independent is owned by Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inde​pendent


On 25 March 2010, Independent News & Media sold the newspaper to Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev ...  In 2009, Lebedev had bought a controlling stake in the London Evening Standard. Two weeks later, editor Roger Alton resigned.[17]

/ was news to me.
// spread the word
/// third slashie hates how the sausage is made


That's all well and good, but that article makes a lot of sense. If you honestly believe that corporations and the 0.1%'ers are not pushing as hard as they can to keep all their unfair advantages then I have a lovely bridge to sell you.
 
2020-07-08 1:03:45 PM  
Harlee:
Dayum.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-08 1:18:01 PM  
FTFA: In the 1400s, China owned the greatest seagoing fleet in the world, up to 3,500 ships at its peak. (The U.S. Navy today has only 430).

Fun fact: the US Navy also does not have any wooden wind-driven ships armed with muzzle-loaded cannons.  So clearly that means something.

/ yeah, I know about the USS Constitution
 
2020-07-08 1:18:32 PM  

Harlee: "Few people in the West realise how economically and technologically advanced China was by the 1400s. The Treasure Fleet was vast -- some vessels were up to 120 metres long. (Christopher Columbus's Santa Maria was only 19 metres.) A Chinese ship might have several decks inside it, up to nine masts, twelve sails, and contain luxurious staterooms and balconies, with a crew of up to 1,500, according to one description. On one journey, 317 of these ships set sail at once."

Dayum.


I could have been eating egg rolls with General Tso's Chicken EVERY NIGHT? FFFFFFF.......
 
2020-07-08 1:20:48 PM  
When China Ruled the Waves (Chinese Dynasty Documentary) | Timeline
Youtube h4YEADagu0o
 
2020-07-08 1:24:29 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Nuuu: I don't really see the connection between the treasure fleet and Trump, beyond very, very generalized ideas about trade protectionism being the enemy of prosperity that particularly does not serve working classes.  And that's a pretty simple point that you really don't need an extended analogy to 15th century China to prove.

The better history is probably that navies are stupidly expensive, and always have been.  So if you're bleeding wealth in a protracted war against the Mongols, you could probably shore up your credit lines culling a few hundred of your century's super-carriers.

Navies being stupidly expensive is its own problem that we have yet to solve. That's why we have invested so much time and money into "concurrency," the Navy's plan to develop new ship technology as you're building the ship.  It was never a good idea.  But it was an attempt to answer the problem of building a ship with today's technology that is obsolete almost as soon as it's done being built.  It's also why the U.S. Navy will never, ever hit its fleet-size goals.

Yeah, this. fark this articl . Navies are stupid expensive and those ships sounded ridiculous. Spain bankrupted themselves, essentially, by building their nearly useless armada.


Well, to be honest, if it weren't for God being English and the Irish merrily slaughtering the crews of beached Spanish ships, the Spanish Empire could have gotten back their investment from invading England.

Also, it wasn't an Armada.  Philip built several armadas.  The one we all giggle over is the only one that even got close to the Isles.  If the US had created seven Manhattan Projects over thirty years and only two developed nuclear bombs, and only one of those got dropped on Japan where a freak thunderstorm blew it back into Pearl Harbor to explode - the US would have been rather broke at the end of the whole thing.
 
2020-07-08 1:28:10 PM  
hopefully the article isn't as hard to read as the headline.
 
2020-07-08 1:41:06 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Nuuu: I don't really see the connection between the treasure fleet and Trump, beyond very, very generalized ideas about trade protectionism being the enemy of prosperity that particularly does not serve working classes.  And that's a pretty simple point that you really don't need an extended analogy to 15th century China to prove.

The better history is probably that navies are stupidly expensive, and always have been.  So if you're bleeding wealth in a protracted war against the Mongols, you could probably shore up your credit lines culling a few hundred of your century's super-carriers.

Navies being stupidly expensive is its own problem that we have yet to solve. That's why we have invested so much time and money into "concurrency," the Navy's plan to develop new ship technology as you're building the ship.  It was never a good idea.  But it was an attempt to answer the problem of building a ship with today's technology that is obsolete almost as soon as it's done being built.  It's also why the U.S. Navy will never, ever hit its fleet-size goals.

Yeah, this. fark this articl . Navies are stupid expensive and those ships sounded ridiculous. Spain bankrupted themselves, essentially, by building their nearly useless armada.


Spain had codified a terrible strategy for empire management before the Armada was a thing.  They were already spending themselves into massive debt by constantly fighting France, then the Ottomans, then the Germans, and then the Germans again.  The Spanish crown kept raising taxes until the peninsula couldn't function.  Something like 60% of their budget was going to pay down interest on their debts.
 
gcc [TotalFark]
2020-07-08 1:42:24 PM  
The distant past is a different place from the future, and economists have proven themselves poor guides to both.

How about we stop wasting time on the 14th century Chinese equivalent of kremlinology and just deal with the world as it actually is today?
 
2020-07-08 2:47:35 PM  
So, Princeton economist is using Chinese history to blurt out that nationalized health care is theft.
 
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