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(Five Thirty-Eight)   Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History   (projects.fivethirtyeight.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, American Civil War, Southern United States, Ku Klux Klan, Confederate States of America, Southern Poverty Law Center, White supremacy, Racial segregation, periods of U.S. history  
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5279 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 08 Jul 2020 at 9:51 AM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-08 9:02:51 AM  
Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.
 
2020-07-08 9:05:20 AM  

IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.


Well not "all across Europe," just in places with large Jewish populations.
 
2020-07-08 9:22:35 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

Well not "all across Europe," just in places with large Jewish populations.


Oh they would definitely want them all across Europe.
 
2020-07-08 9:27:02 AM  

IgG4: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

Well not "all across Europe," just in places with large Jewish populations.

Oh they would definitely want them all across Europe.


Yeah, there'd probably be a bunch of twats in Coventry screaming about "Ye Olde Heritage."
 
2020-07-08 9:30:28 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: IgG4: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

Well not "all across Europe," just in places with large Jewish populations.

Oh they would definitely want them all across Europe.

Yeah, there'd probably be a bunch of twats in Coventry screaming about "Ye Olde Heritage."


Exactly, the Blitz was a huge win for the NAZIs, and should be remembered from their perspective.
 
2020-07-08 9:54:01 AM  
media.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-08 9:54:03 AM  
Fun infographic... but man, do we really need to keep revisiting this shiat?  I mean, either you know this already or you refuse to accept it.
 
2020-07-08 9:54:26 AM  
This is the entire message of erecting Confederate statues in the 1900s, and Trump's 2020 campaign slogan.

Up yours Nigger
Youtube DM4-r4pN1PY
.
 
2020-07-08 9:56:26 AM  
Glorifying the racist losers.
 
2020-07-08 9:57:26 AM  
Most of the people making that argument that might have two brain cells to rub together are well aware. "Conservatism" is the preferred political brand of disingenuous shiatheads.
 
2020-07-08 9:58:59 AM  
They had nothing to do with heritage.  They were an exercise in power.  Racists saw that by the early 20th century, African Americans were beginning to thrive.  They were building wealth.  Acquiring property.  Getting educated.  Something had to be done to show poor, ignorant, uneducated white-folk that they were still "above" someone.  The statues served a dual-purpose;  intimidate African Americans, mollify poor, uneducated whites, helping the "landed gentry" maintain the oppressive status quo.  Keep the ignorant, poor whites, as well as the African Americans down.  Brilliant, really.  Evil.  Immoral.  Deplorable.  But brilliant in its simplicity.
 
2020-07-08 9:59:13 AM  
We revive confederate statues and symbols every time civil rights achievements are made.

A town in my state (Gettysburg, SD) had a police patch with an American and confederate flag. Maybe that's cute. Town slogan of "where the war wasn't!" Okay, a holdover from way back when I guess.

Turns out they added the confederate flag in 2009. Gee. Wonder who got inaugurated then.

/they just removed the flag like yesterday.
 
2020-07-08 9:59:48 AM  
How about some historical markers for those dedicated students of history out there?
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-08 10:00:04 AM  

IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.


That's a special case. Losers put up statues all the time. Germany has WWI memorials; the difference was the sense of national shame in WWII, which was largely holocaust-related. Had it been any 'normal' war full of killing people over something honourable like a border dispute or a succession of some noble family or whatever else there would be statues.
 
2020-07-08 10:02:44 AM  
I forget which comic said it but paraphrased "These monuments weren't about remembering the mistakes of the past, otherwise the plaques would start with "this motherfarker here..."
 
2020-07-08 10:03:29 AM  

IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.


Don't you know, the allied powers imposed untenable conditions on the German people after WWI.  They took land away from them, took money away from them, and made them feel like lesser peoples.  All Hitler did was restore civic pride, rebuild the German economy, and teach them that they shouldn't be ashamed of their colorless skin, glistening hair, and dreamy blue eyes.  He made the trains run on time again, and some of his civic works projects were on a scale the world had never seen.  He put millions of Jews back to work, because he was visionary enough to see that work would set them free.  Arbeit Macht Frei, if you will.  And that whole war thing, that was really about the Allies' unwillingness to give back to the Germans what was rightfully theirs, and also about an ugly Communist land grab.  Do you KNOW how many people Stalin murdered?  He's the real villain here.

So yeah, Hitler got a bum rap just because he over-played his hand a little bit and lost the war.  If he'd won, there'd be statues to him everywhere, and Churchill and RAF bomber command would be the real war criminals for what they did in Dresden, Hamburg, and a host of other fire-bombed civilian centers.  And don't even get me started on that butcher Harry Truman, who literally dropped nukes on the heads of Japanese babies.

/some people actually believe this.  Most of them fly Confederate flags, too.
 
2020-07-08 10:03:52 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Needs to be attached to every "monument" dedicated to the losers.
 
2020-07-08 10:04:25 AM  
"Dixie's Daughters: The United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Preservation of Confederate Culture." "Their goal, in all the work that they did, was to prepare future generations of white Southerners to respect and defend the principles of the Confederacy."

The principles of the Confederacy? Seriously? I got your principle right here, assholes.

If the "Daughters" and "Sons" of the Confederacy aren't already classified as hate groups right alongside the KKK, they need to be.
 
2020-07-08 10:04:29 AM  

Shaggy_C: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

That's a special case. Losers put up statues all the time. Germany has WWI memorials; the difference was the sense of national shame in WWII, which was largely holocaust-related. Had it been any 'normal' war full of killing people over something honourable like a border dispute or a succession of some noble family or whatever else there would be statues.


Slavery should leave the US with a sense of national shame.
 
2020-07-08 10:05:01 AM  
Any real historian could have told you that, subby.  It was all about suppressing Black people and re-writing history to match the Lost Cause pseudohistory.
 
2020-07-08 10:06:52 AM  

nytmare: "Dixie's Daughters: The United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Preservation of Confederate Culture." "Their goal, in all the work that they did, was to prepare future generations of white Southerners to respect and defend the principles of the Confederacy."

The principles of the Confederacy? Seriously? I got your principle right here, assholes.

If the "Daughters" and "Sons" of the Confederacy aren't already classified as hate groups right alongside the KKK, they need to be.


I'm fine with that.  Especially as they try to pass themselves off as genealogical groups on par with the Sons of the American Revolution and the General Society of Mayflower Descendants.
 
2020-07-08 10:07:12 AM  
https://leefamilyarchive.org/papers/l​e​tters/transcripts-UVA/v076.html

Lexington VA 13 Dec - r 1866
My dear Genl
I have considered the questions in your letter of the 8th Inst: & am unable to advise as to the efficacy of the scheme proposed for the accomplishment of the object in view. That can be better determined by those more conversant with similar plans than I am.
As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated; my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; & of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour. All I think that can now be done, is to aid our noble & generous women in their efforts to protect the graves & mark the last resting places of those who have fallen, & wait for better times.
I am very glad to hear of your comfortable establishment in Baltimore & that Mrs. Rosser is with you. Please present to her my warm regards. It would give me great pleasure to meet you both anywhere, & especially at times of leisure in the mountains of Virginia; but such times look too distant for me to contemplate, much less for me now to make arrangements for -
Very truly yours
R E Lee
Genl Thos: L. Rosser
 
2020-07-08 10:07:34 AM  

Shaggy_C: That's a special case.


So is this.  Except our racists are too stupid and belligerent to feel shame, and most of the rest of our population is too "moderate" to make their continued terrorist threats against minorities punishable.
 
2020-07-08 10:08:36 AM  

IgG4: Slavery should leave the US with a sense of national shame.


Should have, but the South didn't feel shame after losing the war. They felt anger. Actually, to put it bluntly, the Union "won" the war in the American South just like the USA "won" the war in Afghanistan.

There was a long-running insurgency that never actually died off; the Compromise of 1877 just saw the Union troops retreat and leave the South to its own devices as a means to prevent a constitutional crisis and a second civil war.
 
2020-07-08 10:09:24 AM  

Shaggy_C: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

That's a special case. Losers put up statues all the time. Germany has WWI memorials; the difference was the sense of national shame in WWII, which was largely holocaust-related. Had it been any 'normal' war full of killing people over something honourable like a border dispute or a succession of some noble family or whatever else there would be statues.


Germany has WWI memorials, to honor its war dead.  It also has WWII memorials, to honor its war dead.  I don't believe that they put up many (any?) monuments to the Kaiser honoring what a bang-up job he did getting them into WWI, unless they were part of the 1930's efforts to restore national pride and rebuild the German "volk."  That said, I can't say I've looked at the statuary of that period as much as I've looked into post-WWII reconstruction.

/Grandpa was in the Wehrmacht
//Mom was born in one of the French-occupied zones in 1948
///Came of age during re-unification
////Fascinated by the roots of modern Germany.
//slashies
 
2020-07-08 10:11:50 AM  

fuzzybacchus: Fun infographic... but man, do we really need to keep revisiting this shiat?  I mean, either you know this already or you refuse to accept it.


They don't teach this in schools, and even if they did I was probably too busy screwing around to realize that it was important. Outside of the Fark media consumption elite, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are just learning about the actual history and role of these statues.
 
2020-07-08 10:13:17 AM  
It's not just about statues either.

The practice of naming schools after Confederate figures took off after immediately after Brown vs. Board of Education.

If that isn't a fark you to the black community, I don't know what is.
 
2020-07-08 10:13:49 AM  

IgG4: Shaggy_C: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

That's a special case. Losers put up statues all the time. Germany has WWI memorials; the difference was the sense of national shame in WWII, which was largely holocaust-related. Had it been any 'normal' war full of killing people over something honourable like a border dispute or a succession of some noble family or whatever else there would be statues.

Slavery should leave the US with a sense of national shame.


We're incapable of national shame.

In more ways than we'd like to admit, our current president represents us (not just the far right Republicans, but many Democrats as well) very accurately.
 
2020-07-08 10:14:51 AM  
The statues are astroturf, melt them the fark down.

Erect statues of naked Stormy Daniels to preserve the history of American pornstars fighting American Peesidents.
 
2020-07-08 10:18:00 AM  
They are about preserving the history of whites being socially above blacks. So there is history, it's just reprehensible.
 
2020-07-08 10:23:09 AM  

Devil's Advocaat: It's not just about statues either.

The practice of naming schools after Confederate figures took off after immediately after Brown vs. Board of Education.

If that isn't a fark you to the black community, I don't know what is.


Truth.   Brown v. Board was decided in 1954.  The school system where I grew up, Fairfax County, VA, named its next two High Schools after Robert E. Lee and J.E.B. Stuart, a perfectly fine confederate officer who raped and pillaged his way around northern and central Virginia on horseback.

Fortunately JEB Stuart was renamed Justice H.S. a few years back, and Lee is going to get a new name too.   One of the leading contenders for that one is Barrack Obama H.S.
 
2020-07-08 10:23:13 AM  
But they are destroying more than confederate statues.. Columbus, Albert Pike, etc..etc..etc.
 
2020-07-08 10:23:26 AM  

serfdood: Glorifying the racist losers.


This.  All my life I never understood why they existed.
 
2020-07-08 10:25:10 AM  

Warthog: Germany has WWI memorials, to honor its war dead.  It also has WWII memorials, to honor its war dead.


I'm surprised at the latter - aside from the gravesites, there are actually war memorials to Nazis? I thought the Germans were more keen on running things like the Wehrmachtsausstellung to remind everyone about all of the war crimes committed by the German soldiers during the era.

Perhaps if we had more of those kinds of reminders in the USA after the civil war, the country would have turned out quite differently.
 
2020-07-08 10:25:44 AM  

zippythechimp: serfdood: Glorifying the racist losers.

This.  All my life I never understood why they existed.


Because white people in the first sixty or seventy years of the 20th century wanted to remind black people where their "place" was.
 
2020-07-08 10:26:43 AM  

Rapmaster2000: How about some historical markers for those dedicated students of history out there?
[Fark user image 769x763]


That's the first historical marker I've seen that needs a tl;dr on the back.
 
2020-07-08 10:28:45 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-08 10:29:15 AM  

dwrash: But they are destroying more than confederate statues.. Columbus, Albert Pike, etc..etc..etc.


That's true.  They are.  The latter was a confederate officer.  The former was a genocidal invader who set the stage for the pillaging of an entire continent. Just because he opened the doors to the continent doesn't mean he deserves to be celebrated for how he did it.

Statues exist to honor the people they represent. As social mores change, it's appropriate to revisit whether some of those people still deserve that honor.  This is not a new phenomenon.  Throughout history, generations have built statues to their heros.  Subsequent generations have torn those statues down, and put up new ones to heros who better reflect who they are and who they want to be.

Just because a thing is old, doesn't mean its worthy of preservation -- at least not in a public place of honor.  To the extent that the monuments have enough age or historical significance behind them, bring them down and put them in a museum with appropriate historical context.  Don't leave them standing in the middle of city intersections where people have no choice but to see them standing over them.
 
2020-07-08 10:29:52 AM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: [Fark user image 476x684]


woops, wrong one, the one i wanted to post said the same thing about statues, but it's still relevant
 
2020-07-08 10:31:51 AM  

Shaggy_C: Warthog: Germany has WWI memorials, to honor its war dead.  It also has WWII memorials, to honor its war dead.

I'm surprised at the latter - aside from the gravesites, there are actually war memorials to Nazis?


Ronald Reagan even laid a wreath in memory of the dead Nazis.
Then went out for a cup of tea.
 
2020-07-08 10:36:56 AM  
Yeah, that's kind of obvious.  When you want to remember history you put up a plaque with some information.  If you want a memorial to those who died you put up something with a list of names of the fallen.

When you want to wank off to your glorious "lost cause" and try to pretend your ancestors were badass despite getting their ass kicked during the battle you put up shiat like this

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-08 10:40:02 AM  

IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.


...or driving around in pickups with NAZI flags and gun racks full of automatic rifles.   Oh, wait, we probably have that.
 
2020-07-08 10:41:13 AM  

fuzzybacchus: Fun infographic... but man, do we really need to keep revisiting this shiat?  I mean, either you know this already or you refuse to accept it.


Eh, we're not quite there yet. I had to explain it to some co-workers the other day. Some of them were appropriately horrified.
 
2020-07-08 10:44:49 AM  

Rapmaster2000: How about some historical markers for those dedicated students of history out there?
[Fark user image image 769x763]


wait, did they replace the statue with that plaque, or is the statue still there?
 
2020-07-08 10:45:04 AM  

Shaggy_C: Warthog: Germany has WWI memorials, to honor its war dead.  It also has WWII memorials, to honor its war dead.

I'm surprised at the latter - aside from the gravesites, there are actually war memorials to Nazis? I thought the Germans were more keen on running things like the Wehrmachtsausstellung to remind everyone about all of the war crimes committed by the German soldiers during the era.

Perhaps if we had more of those kinds of reminders in the USA after the civil war, the country would have turned out quite differently.


You are correct that the Germans still focus heavily on the atrocities of the period (as they should), and there is nothing I've ever seen that glorifies any part of the war.  The memorials I'm talking about are all either in cemeteries, or near them. Within village cemeteries, or sometimes in a village square near the cemetery, you'll find small memorials with a list of the soldiers from that village who died during WWII.  Often times, they've clearly taken an existing memorial for WWI war dead, and added a plaque or similar expansion for the fallen of WWII.  Recall that Germans had soldiers falling all over the world, and many remains were not repatriated.  That means many individual soldiers didn't have graves at home.  So these gave people in that village a place to go grieve.

Here's one from my ancestral village:

Fark user imageView Full Size


The individual headstones, and the tall marker, are to honor the dead of WWI.  The rectangular brass plaque on the tall headstone is the list of the village's dead soldiers from WWII.   You have to walk right up to it to see the reference to the WWII period.
 
2020-07-08 10:47:25 AM  

IgG4: Shaggy_C: IgG4: Like I was saying the other day, it more like if 50 years on from WW2 a bunch of German veterans or their kids started putting up Hitler statues all across Europe.

That's a special case. Losers put up statues all the time. Germany has WWI memorials; the difference was the sense of national shame in WWII, which was largely holocaust-related. Had it been any 'normal' war full of killing people over something honourable like a border dispute or a succession of some noble family or whatever else there would be statues.

Slavery should leave the US with a sense of national shame.


It did for some of us.
 
2020-07-08 10:49:25 AM  

Warthog: dwrash: But they are destroying more than confederate statues.. Columbus, Albert Pike, etc..etc..etc.

That's true.  They are.  The latter was a confederate officer.  The former was a genocidal invader who set the stage for the pillaging of an entire continent. Just because he opened the doors to the continent doesn't mean he deserves to be celebrated for how he did it.

Statues exist to honor the people they represent. As social mores change, it's appropriate to revisit whether some of those people still deserve that honor.  This is not a new phenomenon.  Throughout history, generations have built statues to their heros.  Subsequent generations have torn those statues down, and put up new ones to heros who better reflect who they are and who they want to be.

Just because a thing is old, doesn't mean its worthy of preservation -- at least not in a public place of honor.  To the extent that the monuments have enough age or historical significance behind them, bring them down and put them in a museum with appropriate historical context.  Don't leave them standing in the middle of city intersections where people have no choice but to see them standing over them.


The the later was not erected because Pike was a short time Confederate officer.  It was errect by Freemasons for his service to the fraternity (Specifically Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction) He was wearing civilian clothes and was erected by the Scottish Right Freemasons for his service to both the white and black Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdictions.   Rituals are the most closely guarded secrets in all of Freemasonry and Albert Pike provided the black Scottish Right Southern Jurisdiction's Grand Commander with a full set of the white Scottish rite ritual manual.  From a masonic point of view there could be no greater gift.
 
2020-07-08 10:49:54 AM  

dwrash: But they are destroying more than confederate statues.. Columbus, Albert Pike, etc..etc..etc.


It sort of looked like some sort of mangled, half-formed thought was trying to emerge from your brain, but never made it, with this post.
 
2020-07-08 10:51:06 AM  

dwrash: Warthog: dwrash: But they are destroying more than confederate statues.. Columbus, Albert Pike, etc..etc..etc.

That's true.  They are.  The latter was a confederate officer.  The former was a genocidal invader who set the stage for the pillaging of an entire continent. Just because he opened the doors to the continent doesn't mean he deserves to be celebrated for how he did it.

Statues exist to honor the people they represent. As social mores change, it's appropriate to revisit whether some of those people still deserve that honor.  This is not a new phenomenon.  Throughout history, generations have built statues to their heros.  Subsequent generations have torn those statues down, and put up new ones to heros who better reflect who they are and who they want to be.

Just because a thing is old, doesn't mean its worthy of preservation -- at least not in a public place of honor.  To the extent that the monuments have enough age or historical significance behind them, bring them down and put them in a museum with appropriate historical context.  Don't leave them standing in the middle of city intersections where people have no choice but to see them standing over them.

The the later was not erected because Pike was a short time Confederate officer.  It was errect by Freemasons for his service to the fraternity (Specifically Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction) He was wearing civilian clothes and was erected by the Scottish Right Freemasons for his service to both the white and black Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdictions.   Rituals are the most closely guarded secrets in all of Freemasonry and Albert Pike provided the black Scottish Right Southern Jurisdiction's Grand Commander with a full set of the white Scottish rite ritual manual.  From a masonic point of view there could be no greater gift.


That's important historical context, it would seem. Don't know if the people who brought his statue down were aware of it?
 
2020-07-08 10:52:09 AM  
I've heard the whole thing before. This article is recycling a theme that has often been repeated in defense of tearing down statues and monuments. The fact is that during that era, all kinds of monuments and statues were erected, not just Confederate ones. That was when each state started putting up historical markers, such as the one in Rapmaster2000's comment. But now we are supposed to pick and choose which of these should remain, because the others are politically incorrect in our era, and we do not care (any more) whether future generations know any history.

"An overwhelming majority of Confederate memorials weren't erected in the years directly following the Civil War. Instead, most were put up decades later."

True. The Civil War had to pass out of the memory of most people before it started being history. Before that, the memories were too painful to consider any kind of memorial. It was the bloodiest war in history up to the time it happened. But that proves nothing to support the author's thesis.

"Nor were they built just to commemorate fallen generals and soldiers; they were installed as symbols of white supremacy during periods of U.S. history when Black Americans' civil rights were aggressively under attack..."

Conclusory and unsupported by any evidence from the period in question. Black Americans' civil rights are still under attack, but I'm not seeing anyone wanting to celebrate the fact. You can talk about the Jim Crow era and the other racial points made in the article all you want, but color me unconvinced.
 
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