Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Yes, Sweden is the cautionary tale here. Definitely it's Sweden. Yup. The world is learning from Sweden   (nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Awkward, Sweden, Economics, Denmark, Influenza, Sweden's economy, Economy, pandemic prompted Danes, Unemployment  
•       •       •

4972 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 07 Jul 2020 at 6:05 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



83 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2020-07-07 5:07:41 PM  
The US response has been terrible, but Sweden has managed to do worse. Their death rate is much higher than ours.
 
2020-07-07 5:14:43 PM  
They should have made their instructions easy to follow.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-07 6:07:46 PM  
Don't do what Swedon't does
 
2020-07-07 6:12:01 PM  
The lesson US and UK are learning is some people died but they are open for business. Sociopaths see the world differently.
 
2020-07-07 6:13:03 PM  
I live just North of Stockholm, and I can say two things:
1) the response to COVID in this country has been a disaster, and anyone that says different is a sociopath, and

2) I'm pissed that all the threads about Sweden are greened in the middle of the night our time. I mean, it's 00:10 for farks sake!
 
2020-07-07 6:13:07 PM  
Is the Bikini Team still ok?
 
2020-07-07 6:13:15 PM  
There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.
 
2020-07-07 6:15:42 PM  

sirrerun: They should have made their instructions easy to follow.

[Fark user image 800x600]


I'm terrified to imagine where the hex wrench factors into this.

Terrified, yet also curious...
=Smidge=
 
2020-07-07 6:16:03 PM  

Bowen: The US response has been terrible, but Sweden has managed to do worse. Their death rate is much higher than ours.


Also nobody expected the US to have a good response, but Sweden farking yo caught folks by surprise.
 
2020-07-07 6:16:31 PM  
anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?
 
2020-07-07 6:17:58 PM  
Too many people reacting to Covid-19 as if it's just another flu strain.

It's not.

And saying it is does not make it so.
 
2020-07-07 6:18:41 PM  

jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?


The gist is:

A lot more dead people than similar countries, while still doing just as bad economically.
 
2020-07-07 6:18:41 PM  
They tried to beat the Coronavirus with just an allen wrench, and then afterwards found that they had a lot of spare pieces left over.
 
2020-07-07 6:20:03 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


New York City is nowhere near heard immunity. The real show starts in late fall for all of us. Buckle up.
 
2020-07-07 6:23:07 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


Fark user imageView Full Size
WTF am I reading
 
2020-07-07 6:23:14 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-07 6:23:30 PM  

stevesporn2000: Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it.


The goal of the lock downs wasn't to prevent death, they were to keep it at a slower pace so the healthcare system didn't get crushed with an overwhelming number of cases.

stevesporn2000: They are pretty much at herd immunity


There is doubt that herd immunity will occur with COVID.

https://medcitynews.com/2020/07/spani​s​h-study-suggests-herd-immunity-against​-covid-19-may-not-be-possible/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe​-​53315983
 
2020-07-07 6:23:51 PM  

jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?


Sweden tried to do "herd immunity" via quarantining their geezers and letting everyone else go about their business. However, now they have a bunch of sick young people, sick geezers, and the antibodies are wearing off. So their experiment failed.
 
2020-07-07 6:24:15 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


You won't have herd immunity without a vaccine, despite what your friend Bethany says on Facebook.
 
2020-07-07 6:24:23 PM  
The Swedish Constitution legally protects the freedom of movement for the people, thus preventing a lockdown in peace time. The Swedish public is expected to follow a series of non-voluntary recommendations[note 2] from the government agency responsible for this area, in this case the Public Health Agency of Sweden (Folkhälsomyndigheten). The Swedish Constitution prohibits ministerial rule - politicians overruling the advice from its agencies is extremely unusual in Sweden - and mandates that the relevant government body, in this case an expert agency - the Public Health Agency - must initiate all actions to prevent the virus in accordance with Swedish law, rendering state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell a central figure in the crisis.
Following agency advice, the government has passed legislation limiting freedom of assembly by temporarily banning gatherings of over 50 individuals, banning people from visiting nursing homes, and physically closing secondary schools and universities. Primary schools have remained open, in part to avoid healthcare workers staying home with their children.
The Public Health Agency issued recommendations to: if possible, work from home; avoid unnecessary travel within the country; engage in social distancing; and for people above 70 to stay at home, as much as possible. Those with even minimal symptoms that could be caused by COVID-19 are recommended to stay home. The karensdag, or initial day without paid sick-leave, has been removed by the government and the length of time one can stay home with pay without a doctor's note has been raised from 7 to 21 days.
 
2020-07-07 6:25:48 PM  
Typical media counting detected, what is the per capita rate, is it higher than Brussels or the US?

Pay wall so I won't read TFA.
 
2020-07-07 6:26:11 PM  

stevesporn2000: If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


Who is "they", why are they attacking America, and how did they manage to involve several of our allies and enemies?
 
2020-07-07 6:27:45 PM  

SpaceyCat: stevesporn2000: Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it.

The goal of the lock downs wasn't to prevent death, they were to keep it at a slower pace so the healthcare system didn't get crushed with an overwhelming number of cases.

stevesporn2000: They are pretty much at herd immunity

There is doubt that herd immunity will occur with COVID.

https://medcitynews.com/2020/07/spanis​h-study-suggests-herd-immunity-against​-covid-19-may-not-be-possible/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-​53315983


Umm...the part where the hospital system doesn't get overwhelmed is the part that prevents death, since more people can receive potentially life saving treatment.
 
2020-07-07 6:27:50 PM  

stevesporn2000: They are pretty much at herd immunity


Citation needed
 
2020-07-07 6:29:46 PM  
FTA : "Sweden's decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic led to thousands of more people dying than in neighboring countries - and didn't spare its economy, either. "They literally gained nothing," one researcher said."

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-07 6:29:52 PM  

UltimaCS: stevesporn2000: If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.

Who is "they", why are they attacking America, and how did they manage to involve several of our allies and enemies?


Totalitariantists, shocializm, tariffs because they are good and easy to win.
 
2020-07-07 6:30:12 PM  

SpaceyCat: stevesporn2000: Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it.

The goal of the lock downs wasn't to prevent death, they were to keep it at a slower pace so the healthcare system didn't get crushed with an overwhelming number of cases.

stevesporn2000: They are pretty much at herd immunity

There is doubt that herd immunity will occur with COVID.

https://medcitynews.com/2020/07/spanis​h-study-suggests-herd-immunity-against​-covid-19-may-not-be-possible/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-​53315983


What's him either ignore you completely or just flat out deny those links by calling you a ''doom merchant'' or some such stupidity.
 
2020-07-07 6:30:54 PM  
It is curious, all the people saying 'Shutdowns are stupid and unnecessary.  Sweden has done great without having to sacrifice their economy' and strangely silent.
 
2020-07-07 6:31:08 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is.


Sweden is at 7% of it's population infected. NYC is at 2.6%.
Herd immunity will be enough to slow down the virus once the population passes 60%+ infected.
So, no.
 
2020-07-07 6:36:35 PM  
There's a story about DARPA having an AI run a simulation of getting merchant vessels across the Atlantic in WWII. It managed to do it faster and with fewer casualties than any human could. DARPA inspected the data to figure out how the AI was doing this. It turned out, the AI was sending a destroyer to sink the slowest merchant ship itself.

When we talk about herd immunity, we're talking about how do we get people from here to there; how do we get troops across the Atlantic with minimal casualties. Sweden may have chosen the AI route.
 
2020-07-07 6:39:18 PM  
LONDON - Ever since the coronavirus emerged in Europe, Sweden has captured international attention by conducting an unorthodox, open-air experiment. It has allowed the world to examine what happens in a pandemic when a government allows life to carry on largely unhindered.
This is what has happened: Not only have thousands more people diedthan in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden's economy has fared little better.
"They literally gained nothing," said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. "It's a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains."
The results of Sweden's experience are relevant well beyond Scandinavian shores. In the United States, where the virus is spreading with alarming speed, many states have - at President Trump's urging - avoided lockdowns or lifted them prematurely on the assumption that this would foster economic revival, allowing people to return to workplaces, shops and restaurants.

In Britain, Prime Minister Boris Johnson - previously hospitalizedwith Covid-19 - reopened pubs and restaurants last weekend in a bid to restore normal economic life.
Implicit in these approaches is the assumption that governments must balance saving lives against the imperative to spare jobs, with the extra health risks of rolling back social distancing potentially justified by a resulting boost to prosperity. But Sweden's grim result - more death, and nearly equal economic damage - suggests that the supposed choice between lives and paychecks is a false one: A failure to impose social distancing can cost lives and jobs at the same time.
Sweden put stock in the sensibility of its people as it largely avoided imposing government prohibitions. The government allowed restaurants, gyms, shops, playgrounds and most schools to remain open. By contrast, Denmark and Norway opted for strict quarantines, banning large groups and locking down shops and restaurants.

More than three months later, the coronavirus is blamed for 5,420 deaths in Sweden, according to the World Health Organization. That might not sound especially horrendous compared with the more than 129,000 Americans who have died. But Sweden is a country of only 10 million people. Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40 percent more deaths than the United States, 12 times more than Norway, seven times more than Finland and six times more than Denmark.
Image
static01.nyt.comView Full Size

Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40 percent more coronavirus-related deaths than the United States.Credit...Jonathan Nackstrand/Agence France-Presse - Getty Images
The elevated death toll resulting from Sweden's approach has been clear for many weeks. What is only now emerging is how Sweden, despite letting its economy run unimpeded, has still suffered business-destroying, prosperity-diminishing damage, and at nearly the same magnitude of its neighbors.

Sweden's central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3 percent. The unemployment rate jumped to 9 percent in May from 7.1 percent in March. "The overall damage to the economy means the recovery will be protracted, with unemployment remaining elevated," Oxford Economics concluded in a recent research note.
This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the central bank expects that the economy will shrink 4.1 percent this year, and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6 percent in May from 4.1 percent in March.
In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains.
The coronavirus does not stop at national borders. Despite the government's decision to allow the domestic economy to roll on, Swedish businesses are stuck with the same conditions that produced recession everywhere else. And Swedish people responded to the fear of the virus by limiting their shopping - not enough to prevent elevated deaths, but enough to produce a decline in business activity.
Here is one takeaway with potentially universal import: It is simplistic to portray government actions such as quarantines as the cause of economic damage. The real culprit is the virus itself. From Asia to Europe to the Americas, the risks of the pandemic have disrupted businesses while prompting people to avoid shopping malls and restaurants, regardless of official policy.
static01.nyt.comView Full Size
Image
Sweden's central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3 percent. Credit...Jonathan Nackstrand/Agence France-Presse - Getty Images

Sweden is exposed to the vagaries of global trade. Once the pandemic was unleashed, it was certain to suffer the economic consequences, said Mr. Kirkegaard, the economist.

The Coronavirus Outbreak
Frequently Asked Questions
Updated July 7, 2020

Is the coronavirus airborne?
The coronavirus can stay aloft for hours in tiny droplets in stagnant air, infecting people as they inhale, mounting scientific evidence suggests. This risk is highest in crowded indoor spaces with poor ventilation, and may help explain super-spreading events reported in meatpacking plants, churches and restaurants. It's unclear how often the virus is spread via these tiny droplets, or aerosols, compared with larger droplets that are expelled when a sick person coughs or sneezes, or transmitted through contact with contaminated surfaces, said Linsey Marr, an aerosol expert at Virginia Tech. Aerosols are released even when a person without symptoms exhales, talks or sings, according to Dr. Marr and more than 200 other experts, who have outlined the evidence in an open letter to the World Health Organization.

What are the symptoms of coronavirus?
Common symptoms include fever, a dry cough, fatigue and difficulty breathing or shortness of breath. Some of these symptoms overlap with those of the flu, making detection difficult, but runny noses and stuffy sinuses are less common. The C.D.C. has also added chills, muscle pain, sore throat, headache and a new loss of the sense of taste or smell as symptoms to look out for. Most people fall ill five to seven days after exposure, but symptoms may appear in as few as two days or as many as 14 days.
What's the best material for a mask?
Scientists around the country have tried to identify everyday materials that do a good job of filtering microscopic particles. In recent tests, HEPA furnace filters scored high, as did vacuum cleaner bags, fabric similar to flannel pajamas and those of 600-count pillowcases. Other materials tested included layered coffee filters and scarves and bandannas. These scored lower, but still captured a small percentage of particles.
Is it harder to exercise while wearing a mask?
commentary published this month on the website of the British Journal of Sports Medicine points out that covering your face during exercise "comes with issues of potential breathing restriction and discomfort" and requires "balancing benefits versus possible adverse events." Masks do alter exercise, says Cedric X. Bryant, the president and chief science officer of the American Council on Exercise, a nonprofit organization that funds exercise research and certifies fitness professionals. "In my personal experience," he says, "heart rates are higher at the same relative intensity when you wear a mask." Some people also could experience lightheadedness during familiar workouts while masked, says Len Kravitz, a professor of exercise science at the University of New Mexico.
I've heard about a treatment called dexamethasone. Does it work?
The steroid, dexamethasone, is the firsttreatment shown to reduce mortality in severely ill patients, according to scientists in Britain. The drug appears to reduce inflammation caused by the immune system, protecting the tissues. In the study, dexamethasone reduced deaths of patients on ventilators by one-third, and deaths of patients on oxygen by one-fifth.
What is pandemic paid leave?
The coronavirus emergency relief package gives many American workers paid leave if they need to take time off because of the virus. It gives qualified workers two weeks of paid sick leave if they are ill, quarantined or seeking diagnosis or preventive care for coronavirus, or if they are caring for sick family members. It gives 12 weeks of paid leave to people caring for children whose schools are closed or whose child care provider is unavailable because of the coronavirus. It is the first time the United States has had widespread federally mandated paid leave, and includes people who don't typically get such benefits, like part-time and gig economy workers. But the measure excludes at least half of private-sector workers, including those at the country's largest employers, and gives small employers significant leeway to deny leave.

Does asymptomatic transmission of Covid-19 happen?
So far, the evidence seems to show it does. A widely cited paper published in April suggests that people are most infectious about two days before the onset of coronavirus symptoms and estimated that 44 percent of new infections were a result of transmission from people who were not yet showing symptoms. Recently, a top expert at the World Health Organization stated that transmission of the coronavirus by people who did not have symptoms was "very rare," but she later walked back that statement.

What's the risk of catching coronavirus from a surface?
Touching contaminated objects and then infecting ourselves with the germs is not typically how the virus spreads. But it can happen. A number of studies of flu, rhinovirus, coronavirus and other microbes have shown that respiratory illnesses, including the new coronavirus, can spread by touching contaminated surfaces, particularly in places like day care centers, offices and hospitals. But a long chain of events has to happen for the disease to spread that way. The best way to protect yourself from coronavirus - whether it's surface transmission or close human contact - is still social distancing, washing your hands, not touching your face and wearing masks.

How does blood type influence coronavirus?
A study by European scientists is the first to document a strong statistical link between genetic variations and Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus. Having Type A blood was linked to a 50 percent increase in the likelihood that a patient would need to get oxygen or to go on a ventilator, according to the new study.

How can I protect myself while flying?
If air travel is unavoidable, there are some steps you can take to protect yourself. Most important: Wash your hands often, and stop touching your face. If possible, choose a window seat. A study from Emory University found that during flu season, the safest place to sit on a plane is by a window, as people sitting in window seats had less contact with potentially sick people. Disinfect hard surfaces. When you get to your seat and your hands are clean, use disinfecting wipes to clean the hard surfaces at your seat like the head and arm rest, the seatbelt buckle, the remote, screen, seat back pocket and the tray table. If the seat is hard and nonporous or leather or pleather, you can wipe that down, too. (Using wipes on upholstered seats could lead to a wet seat and spreading of germs rather than killing them.)

What should I do if I feel sick?
If you've been exposed to the coronavirus or think you have, and have a fever or symptoms like a cough or difficulty breathing, call a doctor. They should give you advice on whether you should be tested, how to get tested, and how to seek medical treatment without potentially infecting or exposing others.

"The Swedish manufacturing sector shut down when everyone else shut down because of the supply chain situation," he said. "This was entirely predictable."
What remained in the government's sphere of influence was how many people would die.
"There is just no questioning and no willingness from the Swedish government to really change tack, until it's too late," Mr. Kirkegaard said. "Which is astonishing, given that it's been clear for quite some time that the economic gains that they claim to have gotten from this are just nonexistent."
Norway, on the other hand, was not only quick to impose an aggressive lockdown, but early to relax it as the virus slowed, and as the government ramped up testing. It is now expected to see a more rapid economic turnaround. Norway's central bank predicts that its mainland economy - excluding the turbulent oil and gas sector - will contract by 3.9 percent this year. That amounts to a marked improvement over the 5.5 percent decline expected in the midst of the lockdown.
Sweden's laissez faire approach does appear to have minimized the economic damage compared with its neighbors in the first three months of the year, according to an assessment by the International Monetary Fund. But that effect has worn off as the force of the pandemic has swept through the global economy, and as Swedish consumers have voluntarily curbed their shopping anyway.
Researchers at the University of Copenhagen gained access to credit data from Danske Bank, one of the largest in Scandinavia. They studied spending patterns from mid-March, when Denmark put the clamps on the economy, to early April. The pandemic prompted Danes to reduce their spending 29 percent in that period, the study concluded. During the same weeks, consumers in Sweden - where freedom reigned - reduced their spending 25 percent.
Strikingly, older people - those over 70 - reduced their spending more in Sweden than in Denmark, perhaps concerned that the business-as-usual circumstances made going out especially risky.

Collectively, Scandinavian consumers are expected to continue spending far more robustly than in the United States, said Thomas Harr, global head of research at Danske Bank, emphasizing those nations' generous social safety nets, including national health care systems. Americans, by contrast, tend to rely on their jobs for health care, making them more cautious about their health and their spending during the pandemic, knowing that hospitalization can be a gateway to financial calamity.
"It's very much about the welfare state," Mr. Harr said of Scandinavian countries. "You're not as concerned about catching the virus, because you know that, if you do, the state is paying for health care."
 
2020-07-07 6:42:09 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


You should really stop sitting on your head.
 
2020-07-07 6:45:10 PM  
If this were over today, yes, Sweden failed.  However, it isn't over.  It's just getting started, and they expected to have more cases early on.  That's not failure, that's the plan.  The goal wasn't to be better off on 7/7.   Let's wait 4 years and see how everyone has done. It's still entirely possible that they'll end up better off in the long run after everyone else suffers what's still to come.  But maybe they'll end up worse.  Or maybe their response and our response and everyone else's response will all amount to more or less the same futility.  We just don't know where this thing is going.

The one thing we know with absolute certainty, however, is that it's far too soon to draw conclusions.
 
2020-07-07 6:45:26 PM  

UltimaCS: jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?

Sweden tried to do "herd immunity" via quarantining their geezers and letting everyone else go about their business. However, now they have a bunch of sick young people, sick geezers, and the antibodies are wearing off. So their experiment failed.


Have a link for their antibodies wearing off already?
 
2020-07-07 6:45:46 PM  

thisispete: Is the Bikini Team still ok?


pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-07 6:49:42 PM  

stevesporn2000: Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it.


That's not true. Every day we can delay infections is a day scientists and doctors get more information about how to treat covid and save lives. Also, it's a day closer to a vaccine, or to better masks. Each day is an advance in life-saving technology, and understanding the disease.

Why are some people unaffected or lightly affected while others are brutalized or killed? They're starting to get some ideas but nothing for sure yet. If we can get this figured out, it'll be a huge advance in saving lives.
 
2020-07-07 6:54:29 PM  

Smackledorfer: UltimaCS: jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?

Sweden tried to do "herd immunity" via quarantining their geezers and letting everyone else go about their business. However, now they have a bunch of sick young people, sick geezers, and the antibodies are wearing off. So their experiment failed.

Have a link for their antibodies wearing off already?


I haven't seen numbers out of Sweden, but a study out of Spain has cast doubt on herd immunity.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe​-​53315983
 
2020-07-07 6:54:32 PM  

Captain Shaky: stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is.

Sweden is at 7% of it's population infected. NYC is at 2.6%.
Herd immunity will be enough to slow down the virus once the population passes 60%+ infected.
So, no.


Citations? I won't ask for them from the idiot you are responding to, but NYC was showing upwards of 25% with antibodies. Even using the worst test with a 15% false positive, that still at least 10% infected.

I had heard the 7% number for Sweden, but I didn't hear of it was confirmed via RNA testing or was random sampling with antibody testing.
 
2020-07-07 7:06:32 PM  

thisispete: Smackledorfer: UltimaCS: jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?

Sweden tried to do "herd immunity" via quarantining their geezers and letting everyone else go about their business. However, now they have a bunch of sick young people, sick geezers, and the antibodies are wearing off. So their experiment failed.

Have a link for their antibodies wearing off already?

I haven't seen numbers out of Sweden, but a study out of Spain has cast doubt on herd immunity.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-​53315983


"while some people who catch coronavirus develop protective antibodies, experts do not yet know how long these last. "

I'm not claiming immunity lasts a long time. I'm questioning the claim that UltimaCS knows it does not. I'm not even saying he is wrong or anything, just that I've yet to see a study proving it to any reasonable degree.
 
2020-07-07 7:10:07 PM  

stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.


This is masterfully done. Trolling as an art form. Take note, children.

/it's either that, or you're going for the world record of most wrong things asserted in shortest number of words
 
2020-07-07 7:13:16 PM  

Smoking GNU: What's him either ignore you completely or just flat out deny those links by calling you a ''doom merchant'' or some such stupidity.


I'm gonna say ignore.  XD
 
2020-07-07 7:13:53 PM  

pearls before swine: If this were over today, yes, Sweden failed.  However, it isn't over.  It's just getting started, and they expected to have more cases early on.  That's not failure, that's the plan.  The goal wasn't to be better off on 7/7.   Let's wait 4 years and see how everyone has done. It's still entirely possible that they'll end up better off in the long run after everyone else suffers what's still to come.  But maybe they'll end up worse.  Or maybe their response and our response and everyone else's response will all amount to more or less the same futility.  We just don't know where this thing is going.

The one thing we know with absolute certainty, however, is that it's far too soon to draw conclusions.


I can almost get behind what you are saying... but, the Swedish strategy (like our own) was intended to mitigate economic damage, but their businesses are more in peril of going under now. It seems safe to say that this isn't going well so far for them. Even if they can get to the other side of this pandemic faster than anyone else using herd immunity (already a shaky non-science supported plan), it won't help them economically if all of their businesses were destroyed in the effort to get there.

We'll see, of course, but it isn't looking good for them.
 
2020-07-07 7:14:26 PM  

Skwishmitten: I live just North of Stockholm, and I can say two things:
1) the response to COVID in this country has been a disaster, and anyone that says different is a sociopath, and

2) I'm pissed that all the threads about Sweden are greened in the middle of the night our time. I mean, it's 00:10 for farks sake!


Schveeeeeden!!

we still Love you!
 
2020-07-07 7:16:24 PM  

youngandstupid: Captain Shaky: stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is.

Sweden is at 7% of it's population infected. NYC is at 2.6%.
Herd immunity will be enough to slow down the virus once the population passes 60%+ infected.
So, no.

Citations? I won't ask for them from the idiot you are responding to, but NYC was showing upwards of 25% with antibodies. Even using the worst test with a 15% false positive, that still at least 10% infected.

I had heard the 7% number for Sweden, but I didn't hear of it was confirmed via RNA testing or was random sampling with antibody testing.


I only divided the confirmed cases number with the population number. Not altogether the best science, but good enough for Fark. So, I guess my only link is Google.com.
 
2020-07-07 7:18:21 PM  

sgarri7777: stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is. Lockdowns don't prevent death they just delay it. As the article said, the economic damage happened when the rest of the world went into lockdown.

If you look at the most recent number of deaths per day, other than one day in May, it is the lowest number of daily deaths since March. This propaganda hit piece came out pretty much the last possible day they could make that argument. In a month when the disease is basically gone in Sweden and the rest of Europe is muddling through they won't make that same argument.

If you're wondering why they would make a propaganda hit piece about a tiny nordic country, it's to make people in the US think that the lockdowns should resume.

New York City is nowhere near heard immunity. The real show starts in late fall for all of us. Buckle up.


There's no guarantee that herd immunity will ever happen with coronavirus. Other coronaviruses do not yield herd immunity. They're just not as lethal as this one.
 
2020-07-07 7:19:57 PM  
It's also not just the death rate as to why herd immunity is a bad strategy - it's all those permanent, possibly disabling side effects of infection that we keep learning about.

A very significant portion of people that get hospitalized have these issues, as well as some number of people that have "mild" cases of it.

I'm personally not all that afraid of dying from it, but I am terrified of being bed-ridden for several years.
 
2020-07-07 7:22:34 PM  

youngandstupid: Captain Shaky: stevesporn2000: There's only one way through this. They are pretty much at herd immunity just like New York City is.

Sweden is at 7% of it's population infected. NYC is at 2.6%.
Herd immunity will be enough to slow down the virus once the population passes 60%+ infected.
So, no.

Citations? I won't ask for them from the idiot you are responding to, but NYC was showing upwards of 25% with antibodies. Even using the worst test with a 15% false positive, that still at least 10% infected.

I had heard the 7% number for Sweden, but I didn't hear of it was confirmed via RNA testing or was random sampling with antibody testing.


In truth, some have argued that the presence of antibodies wasn't even an indication of immunity...

Either the virus is more contagious than we anticipated, and as such those people who got it without realizing are immune (source 1 source 2)

Or immunity is depending on the severity of the infection and asymptomatic carriers aren't going to gain any immunity (or one that lasts only a few weeks, which means they're not immune long enough for herd immunity to become a reality).
(source 1 / source 2)
 
2020-07-07 7:22:37 PM  

Smackledorfer: thisispete: Smackledorfer: UltimaCS: jiesenPSD: anybody able to read the article?  if so, can you share the gist, or some copypasta?

Sweden tried to do "herd immunity" via quarantining their geezers and letting everyone else go about their business. However, now they have a bunch of sick young people, sick geezers, and the antibodies are wearing off. So their experiment failed.

Have a link for their antibodies wearing off already?

I haven't seen numbers out of Sweden, but a study out of Spain has cast doubt on herd immunity.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-​53315983

"while some people who catch coronavirus develop protective antibodies, experts do not yet know how long these last. "

I'm not claiming immunity lasts a long time. I'm questioning the claim that UltimaCS knows it does not. I'm not even saying he is wrong or anything, just that I've yet to see a study proving it to any reasonable degree.


No link, but I did read recently that in a small study they saw some amount of reduced antibodies after a couple of months, and much greater reduced antibodies in asymptomatic cases. Not proof, but not good early info either. Immunity from Tcell activity still seems solid though.

Basically, it's hard to say how much immunity you will have after you get infected.
 
2020-07-07 7:26:08 PM  
Well, duh. And the Socialist model that Sweden uses is what the Democratic party wants.
 
2020-07-07 7:29:19 PM  
Fark the NewYork paywall and fingerbang everyone who greenlights articles from it
 
Displayed 50 of 83 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter



  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.