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(The Atlantic)   When did J.K. Rowling go from being Hermione to...well, the article says Voldemort but she's really acting like Umbridge   (theatlantic.com) divider line
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    More: Creepy, Harry Potter fandom, J. K. Rowling, pieces of fan fiction, books' author, major fan sites, love of Harry Potter, eighth Harry Potter book, Leaky Cauldron  
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1055 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 07 Jul 2020 at 7:42 AM (34 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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HotWingConspiracy
2020-07-07 8:00:25 AM  
33 votes:
This is very personal to me because a large part of my personality is wrapped up in identifying myself through a fake magic school she made up one night.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 8:22:16 AM  
14 votes:

bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.


Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 8:35:02 AM  
9 votes:

karl2025: Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.


Well, she has some valid points worth exploring don't you think? In a time where biological females are getting beaten fairly brutally in MMA fights, Lesbians are being demonetized and de-platformed for simply stating that as a Lesbian they are absolutely not sexually attracted to male dangly parts.

So, stipulating implicitly that the Trans community is suffering and we need to alleviate that suffering in the best way we know how. Also stipulating that social constructs exist and that one persons "Truth" is just as valid as another's, so this is not about debating the validity of any one persons "Identity"

What this comes down to, is should Gender be separated from Biological sex. My contention and that of JK Rowling is no. The reason behind this being I believe that social constructs exist to "describe" reality, and not "define" it.

In my opinion Gender as a social construct described the "Truth" that is biological sex. So while we agree that Gender is a social construct we disagree on it's purpose.

This is more of a philosophical question as it regards to which "Truth" we wish to apply to the country at large with regards to legislation? The Subjective Truth or The Objective Truth. I fall on the Objective side.

D you believe Reality is a hierarchy of Social Constructs with a power dynamic relationship or do you believe there is such a thing as Objective Reality and Social Constructs are used to describe that reality?
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-07 11:35:17 AM  
8 votes:

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.


I am a liberal.
And I've recently learned - that you are correct.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 9:40:14 AM  
8 votes:

batlock666: CanisNoir: In my opinion Gender as a social construct described the "Truth" that is biological sex.

What truth is that?


I would prefer you post your points to indicate you actually thought about this instead of just whipping out a wiki article. There are exceptions to every rule, especially in the imperfect system that is biological evolution. We do not make the rules based on the exception but rather the norm that can be quantified. That norm is "Male" and "Female"

In addition Intersex people are generally born with one or the other of their sexual organs having a larger size which is what is currently used to medically decide.

So I will ask again - do you believe that Reality is just a hierarchy of social constructs existing within a power dynamic or do you believe that there is an Objective Reality?.

Do you believe Science is the search for the truth or the search to disprove the truth?

Those are the fundamental questions.
 
Wraithstrike
2020-07-07 8:16:35 AM  
8 votes:
At this point, JK Rowling has become this generation's H.P. Lovecraft.

She created a fantastic world, with a lot of interesting lore that people will be talking about for ages. There will be fanfiction, movies, tv series, video games of the world she has created. The world she made will far outlive her.

However, the person behind those works has willfully chosen to be on the wrong side of history. The author's personal stances will forever color the perception of the fans and the general consensus will be to appreciate the works, but reject the person who made them.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 8:29:13 AM  
7 votes:

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.


Oh and that they have the right to punish you until you comply.
 
garron
2020-07-07 5:59:50 PM  
6 votes:
Leftists want to destroy people's lives and take away their ability to earn a living or get an education simply because they have different opinions - even if they are fellow leftists like JK Rowling. 

Look in the mirror and you will see the biggest evil plaguing the world right now.
 
cew-smoke
2020-07-07 1:01:35 PM  
6 votes:

Karne: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Awe, it's not easy being a bigoted racist these days Gramps!


One day when you are older, you will realize that the ultra-left and the ultra-right are the exact same people with different ideologies. If you can't see how both of them use outrage and "fighting the good fight" as a means to control thought then you really have zero understanding of how groupthink works. The constant outrage without any nuance or logical reasoning is toxic and dangerous. Just because someone plays on the same team as you, doesn't mean they have the same values as you. Go study how young people in China and Russia, during the blossoming of fascism cloaked as communism, acted like. You will find their level of intolerance is just as horrific as those who are goose stepping to the hard right, evangelical Nazism mindset.  And if you think that history doesn't repeat itself or "today's ultra liberals" won't ever be like they were... then you really have a long way to go before you understand people and history.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 9:30:39 AM  
6 votes:

Karne: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Awe, it's not easy being a bigoted racist these days Gramps!


Her opinions are not necessarily my opinions but I believe she has a right to them without someone shrieking racist bigot at her.
Don't like her, ignore her.

Only time I think about her is when someone here is calling her names because they believe they have a right to control her.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 9:26:44 AM  
6 votes:

Enomai: God damn, three of these in 3 days? Fark is really farming this topic right now. Has to be exhausting for trans people to keep defending this with the same posts pointed at different screen names.


As exhausting as it is for Lesbians having to defend themselves against accusations of Bigotry because they feel that not liking male sex organs is a large part of their Lesbian Identity.

Yes, it's exhausting but it's a debate that needs to be had.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 8:58:52 AM  
6 votes:

meanmutton: Bloomin Bloomberg: huh. today's "JK Rowling hate" thread is early.

keep fighting the good fight JK -the civilized majority science and medical-denying bigots stands with you.

FTFY


This confuses me, "Gender is a social construct that is separate from Sex" has no basis in scientific reasoning and cannot be proven through the Scientific Method. It's just a philosophical thought experiment at this point.

So which side are you calling "science and medical-denying bigots" ?
 
havocmike
2020-07-07 8:29:42 AM  
6 votes:
Famous authors were always puds, but social media wasn't there for Mark Twain to let us know his feelings on whatever the hot topics of 1888 were.
 
bglove25 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 8:07:19 AM  
6 votes:
If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.
 
baka-san [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 7:55:51 AM  
6 votes:

Jake Havechek: Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?


Shut up and write?
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 11:57:09 AM  
5 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.


I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 9:56:40 AM  
5 votes:
Why is this in the Entertainment Tab?
It's not entertaining at all.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 9:42:17 AM  
5 votes:

kenshin5435: This is the kind of response that make Liberals look bad. It causes people to instantly disregard anything else you have to say, and it makes words like "bigot" lose all meaning.


Actually it's the type of response that is making "Classical Liberals" leave the movement, it's make the Progressive Left look bad. The fractures have been happening for a while now.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 9:22:59 AM  
5 votes:

tira: Probably the side whose argument is that gender is somehow pre-programmed but not observable across cultures.


As far as I know nobody has made that claim. They have made the claim that Gender is a social construct that describes the objective reality that is Biological Sex.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement and why?
 
punkwrestler
2020-07-07 8:47:26 AM  
5 votes:

Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.


And you didn't even mention how the goblin bankers are crook nosed, showing her anti-Semitic feelings.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-07 10:53:27 PM  
4 votes:

thatguyoverthere70: truthandjustice: You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks.

If you truly believe this, then stop acting like you're the victim.


Say what now.
Not THAT is projection.
???
Please point to my victim act. When did it happen? What time.. which post ... where ??
 
garron
2020-07-07 6:39:19 PM  
4 votes:

soporific: bglove25: PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.

Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.

It is often used to justify violence. You don't get credit for not threatening violence when you find yourself in wholehearted agreement with those who do. Especially when they turn around and use your words to justify their violence.


By your logic, we can hold you personally responsible and destroy your life because you are in political agreement with the following people:

- James Hodgkinson - leftist activist who shot Congressman Steve Scalise
- Micah Xavier Johnson - BLM activist who killed 5 Dallas Police Officers
- The BLM rioters who killed David Dorn and Secoriea Turner and killed or injured scores of others
- etc, etc, etc.

Heck, let's add the Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) to the list.  He was a left-wing environmentalist.

The ideals you support sparked this violence.  So now we can some after you personally right?
 
Trik
2020-07-07 4:05:33 PM  
4 votes:

Enomai: You're the one shrieking.


umm, no.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 4:00:45 PM  
4 votes:

Eclectic: TERF


I see toxic liberals have a new catchphrase to shriek at people who disagree with them.
Along with the old reliable bigot and racist, along with the newish incel.

There are many more but those are the immediate fallbacks and most quickly used.
 
Commander Lysdexic [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 1:35:27 PM  
4 votes:

CanisNoir: I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


wondermark.comView Full Size
 
Eclectic
2020-07-07 12:17:06 PM  
4 votes:
Third thread in three days where all the trans Farkers get to watch as their existence and validity is endlessly debated like some intellectual exercise. Party bonus that there's a sealioning concern troll account that's risen from the vasty deeps to shiat all over the place.

Too f*cking exhausted to really engage at this point. Have fun, kids.
 
bglove25 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 11:34:43 AM  
4 votes:

PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.


Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 11:05:24 AM  
4 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: Nope.My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.


No, you're point is to simply be an arsehole because you can't fathom that people are having their families torn apart and friends devastated by this and they just might want to try and understand the other side so the suffering can stop.

You have proven to be an arsehole and not interested in honest debate with the goal of common understanding. You're wasting my time and I am done with you.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:56:25 AM  
4 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith. My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

So you're not actually interested in people understanding so long as you can sit on the side lines in self assumed smugness shutting down any honest attempt at getting to the deeper issue and trying to come to an understanding

Bravo you are an arsehole and part of the problem.


Nope.

My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.
 
punkwrestler
2020-07-07 10:09:43 AM  
4 votes:

Trik: meanmutton: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.

FTFY.

What makes you believe that your opinion is any more valid than hers?


Because she is discounting a whole swath of people, because of her bigotry. Bigots basically have to be taken to task when they tear their ugly heads.
 
kenshin5435
2020-07-07 9:37:07 AM  
4 votes:

Karne: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Awe, it's not easy being a bigoted racist these days Gramps!


This is the kind of response that make Liberals look bad. It causes people to instantly disregard anything else you have to say, and it makes words like "bigot" lose all meaning.
 
meanmutton
2020-07-07 8:48:25 AM  
4 votes:

Bloomin Bloomberg: huh. today's "JK Rowling hate" thread is early.

keep fighting the good fight JK -the civilized majority science and medical-denying bigots stands with you.


FTFY
 
Invisible Obama
2020-07-07 8:40:04 AM  
4 votes:
While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.
 
punkwrestler
2020-07-07 8:36:41 AM  
4 votes:

Marcos P: Maybe she's going senile?


Maybe someone is using the imperious curse on her?
 
baka-san [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 8:31:28 AM  
4 votes:

Wraithstrike: At this point, JK Rowling has become this generation's H.P. Lovecraft.

She created a fantastic world, with a lot of interesting lore that people will be talking about for ages. There will be fanfiction, movies, tv series, video games of the world she has created. The world she made will far outlive her.

However, the person behind those works has willfully chosen to be on the wrong side of history. The author's personal stances will forever color the perception of the fans and the general consensus will be to appreciate the works, but reject the person who made them.


Not even close
 
Jake Havechek [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 8:31:04 AM  
4 votes:

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.


You mean like having to stand for the farkin' national anthem?
 
Bslim [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 7:59:02 AM  
4 votes:

Jake Havechek: Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?


No, she should keep right on talking. She's her own worst enemy.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 4:59:09 PM  
3 votes:

truthandjustice: And now that I've read about it, I would not call myself a Leftist - Progressive... Liberal? Sure.


I would not call myself a Leftist. (fullstop)
Progressive?... Liberal?. Sure.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 2:21:47 PM  
3 votes:

thatguyoverthere70: truthandjustice: thatguyoverthere70: truthandjustice: You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks.

If you truly believe this, then stop acting like you're the victim.

Say what now.
Not THAT is projection.
???
Please point to my victim act. When did it happen? What time.. which post ... where ??

1. The thread from a couple of days ago where you said you were there because you were morbidly fascinated to see other liberals attacking you.

2. Your initial writings in this thread, where you just had to point out that you agree with that farker and you also think your fellow liberals are so mean and that they try to dictate what others think and say.

3. The post I responded to and quoted directly above where you say "You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks" Because for you this is all about the feelings you get when YOU get when YOU feel attacked and when YOU think it's all about someone trying to control the way YOU think. For you, this isn't about trans people and their rights, it's about your right to say you agree with JK Rowling.

If you want to agree with Rowling, go for it. No one here has stopped you.


oh wow I have a stalker.

First, DO NOT LIE.
It's ugly. And God don't like ugly.

I never said anything about anyone being "mean".
I think it's sad - for liberals - that they feel like they can control other's thoughts.
It is a sad realization in life when you learn the truth that - the only one you can control is yourself.
And it's frustrating when you want to control the way others see you and perceive you, when you literally cannot. Again, all you can control is your own reactions.
But then as you mature you realize that it's not so frustrating - it can be empowering to learn this. Because YOU get to decide how you will react, and who you will put on mute.
There's a quote by Eleanor Roosevelt that I love. You've probably seen it:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Your number 3 post is major projection. I don't feel at all attacked by people trying to control my thoughts. They can bang their head against a wall all they want. It just isn't something that is possible to do - which is what I was pointing out in my post that you read so much into.

I don't know which trans issue you think I'm against, but I'm totally for equal rights and justice for everyone - and please use whatever restroom you want.
And I honestly don't know much about Rowling. I've never even read her books or seen the movies based on them. I don't think she's evil though. Most people aren't.
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 4:07:11 PM  
3 votes:

SirMadness: So in other words, women in the bathroom are threatened if they perceive other women in the bathroom to be sufficiently ugly enough that their imagination paints a picture of brutal assault. Is that right? How did you come to this conclusion?


Yes. Don't look at me - this is what I've been hearing from women.
 
AgentKGB
2020-07-07 12:40:09 PM  
3 votes:
https://twitter.com/MargaretAtwood/wi​t​h_replies

If you want some contrast from J Karen Rowling.

"Harry Potter And The Bigoted Old Crone Who Dismantled Her Own Legacy"
 
Kattungali
2020-07-07 12:19:40 PM  
3 votes:
CanisNoir:Well, she has some valid points worth exploring don't you think?

No, she has no valid points.

CanisNoir: In a time where biological females

Newsflash for you : All "females" are biological, just like all "males" are biological.  In order to not be "biological", they'd need to be inorganic.  (Perhaps you think some hu-mons are made from rocks or something?)

CanisNoir: should Gender be separated from Biological sex.

Again, all sex is biological.

Perhaps instead of trotting out stuff you learned in middle school, you could do some actual learning on the topic?      Here's a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?​v=uDeNDX​4geXo (A video from a University biology professor.)
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 12:19:12 PM  
3 votes:

Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"


Keep reading the thread .......
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 12:02:05 PM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.

I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


Lol.  Complete horseshiat.

My comments have only been directed at you and your total ignorance of basic biology and genetics.  The topic could be anything related to sexual reproduction/gender identity/etc. and I would have responded to you the same way.

Sorry that having your complete lack of knowledge thrown back in your face triggers you so much, snowflake.  But that is only about you, and not transgender issues.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 11:55:07 AM  
3 votes:

Enomai: CanisNoir: I stated that "Gender is a social construct and is separate from Biological Sex" has no basis in scientific fact.

I do not have time at the moment to dig in to the underlying research at the moment but that is pretty much the verbatim position on that topic of the APA today as we are having this discussion. I am curious if you think that they arrived at that based on feeling or research or if you have a holding that invalidates PhD's of Psychology.


CanisNoir couldn't even pass a first-year undergraduate exam on human biology/genetics, and you expect him to have anything even remotely knowledgeable to say on this topic?

Good luck!
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 11:30:59 AM  
3 votes:

shut_it_down: Armored Vomit Doll: - etc. etc. etc. Textbooks exist simply covering all the ways that sex selection can go sideways.

This is the point a lot of people never seem to understand when arguing about sex and human biology. Biology is squishy and unpredictable. People try to draw these bright lines from genes to sex to gender to gender roles, but anyone who has studied biology to any serious extent should know that these lines aren't crisp. There are plenty of exceptions due to the fact that our biology is incredibly complex and influenced by innumerable factors that we still don't fully understand.


My main work with genetics and reproduction was with poultry which, as birds, have a totally different sex-selection mechanism (no X and Y chromosomes; the base template is male, not female; the ovum generally determines the sex not the sperm).  If you want to see weird, start comparing the XY paradigm with the ZW paradigm and things get beyond bizarre.

And your second point is where I was heading next, and might still, as this thread is going to be open for a long while.  Beyond just SRY, there are many other alleles of genes in a person's genome that might affect both their biological sex and their eventual gender.

And, after that, who we aren't isn't only determined by our genome, but our environment, of course.

Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:55:16 AM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?

So I admit, I did not major in Biology, so I pulled my answer from Live Sciences article :Chromosomes: Definition & Structure

https://www.livescience.com/27248-chro​mosomes.html

How sex is determined
Humans have an additional pair of sex chromosomes for a total of 46 chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are referred to as X and Y, and their combination determines a person's sex. Typically, human females have two X chromosomes while males possess an XY pairing. This XY sex-determination system is found in most mammals as well as some reptiles and plants.
Whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes is determined when a sperm fertilizes an egg. Unlike the body's other cells, the cells in the egg and sperm - called gametes or sex cells - possess only one chromosome. Gametes are produced by meiosis cell division, which results in the divided cells having half the number of chromosomes as the parent, or progenitor, cells. In the case of humans, this means that parent cells have two chromosomes and gametes have one.
All of the gametes in the mother's eggs possess X chromosomes. The father's sperm contains about half X and half Y chromosomes. The sperm are the variable factor in determining the sex of the baby. If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male.


Please expand on that answer since it appears you have more knowledge on the subject than I.


The only thing that matters is whether the adrenal glands start pumping out testosterone in the right quantity at the right time.

This is controlled by a region called SRY which is normally found on the Y chromosome.  However
- that region can be damaged, rendering it a pseudo-gene
- that region can be transposed to the X chromosome during meiosis
- other hormones that affect sex development (like cortisol) might not be produced in sufficient quantities to keep the testosterone working as it should
- etc. etc. etc.  Textbooks exist simply covering all the ways that sex selection can go sideways.

So, since you now admit you are completely ignorant on this topic, why do you think anyone should take your opinion on it seriously?
 
cocozilla
2020-07-07 10:53:42 AM  
3 votes:

Trik: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Oh and that they have the right to punish you until you comply.


Yeah...right....thank god that the ones silencing gays , science, education, the disenfranchised, dissent, and engaging in real suppression are all republicans. Now go away troll.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:47:54 AM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: We don't refer to the distinct genotypes in society. That's the point. The concept of race is based on human perception, but not on the reality of the situation.

Then what is the purpose of the social construct?


Why does it need to have a purpose?

Again, you are begging the question.  You need to demonstrate that social constructs need to have purposes before demanding that I tell you this particular construct's purpose.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:46:40 AM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.


I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:44:03 AM  
3 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.


Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:39:36 AM  
3 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: So I will ask again - do you believe that Reality is just a hierarchy of social constructs existing within a power dynamic or do you believe that there is an Objective Reality?.

These are not mutually exclusive. For example:

The Pauli exclusion principle is objective reality - it exists whether we want to believe in it or not.

Race (as in a biological concept) is a social construct.  It has no value in science for a variety of reasons (one being that multiple distinct genotypes can map to the same phenotype when it comes to race), and is not useful as an objective description of anything.


Quantum entanglement is real whether we believe it or not also, which is why we relegate that to Theoretical Physics. There is no doubt that on the quantum level the standard rules of reality tend to fall apart - which is why we use what can be quantified as the basis to judge reality.

If Race as a social construct is not an descriptor of any objective thing, then what purpose would you say the social construct has and how do we refer to the distinct genotypes in general society?

The point is there is far more at play than just "male" and "female" here.  We are talking about the entire genome of a person, plus all their interactions with the environment both in the womb and after birth.
However, I don't think you are informed enough on these issues to understand this.  So, I may need to start out with the basics.
First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.
 
AdrienVeidt
2020-07-07 10:27:53 AM  
3 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.


Do you have a point aside from demonstrating pride in your obtuseness?  Do you think that because children don't do deeper literary criticism of their works that they're immune to the deeper meanings?  Do you consider the teenagers that the books are actually targeted at to be children that don't analyze their books at all?  Do you have *anything* useful to say?
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:16:46 AM  
3 votes:

Enomai: CanisNoir: Enomai: God damn, three of these in 3 days? Fark is really farming this topic right now. Has to be exhausting for trans people to keep defending this with the same posts pointed at different screen names.

As exhausting as it is for Lesbians having to defend themselves against accusations of Bigotry because they feel that not liking male sex organs is a large part of their Lesbian Identity.

Yes, it's exhausting but it's a debate that needs to be had.

If it needs to be had, I have questions as to whether an anonymous forum as snarky as this place would be the appropriate venue for it. Lesbians might not be attracted to male parts, but pansexuals probably do not have an issue with them since sex isn't the primary vector for attraction. Why then isn't it sufficient to just say that you aren't into those people? If you aren't bigoted then don't take offense when someone tries to label you as such. You have agency as much as anyone does to choose a partner for yourself. I'm a southerner who doesn't fly confederate flags and thinks racism is one of THE things holding back humanity. The mocking in the public space of the "south will rise" jackasses doesn't land with me and doesn't make me defensive.


Well first, I stated up front that the Trans community was suffering and that needs attention, I also stipulated that Social Constructs were real and that any one persons identity was valid. I do not see any attempts at mockery in that - there tacit recognition of each individuals "Truth" as being valid.

As to why a public forum? Because it's a public debate, and sadly the venues with which to have it in are very limited. I try to keep my points to the broader philosophical debate as I see it and hope I get some intelligent people from the other side to challenge me and I try and ignore the chaff - occasionally piping in, admittedly.

I think I am right but am no way claiming I absolutely am right - this is why I hope for intelligent challenge.

Regarding Lesbians, it's because they are being de-platformed, de-monetized and having their reputations ruined because they are being labeled as bigots. If it was as simple as just being able to say "no thanks, not my thing" then there would be no need for this. I am a firm believer in words only having the power I infuse them with as the receiver so just being called a "bigot" is no big deal, but when my ability to make a living is at stake, then it becomes a big deal.

In the end, the reason this is a needed and public debate is because we are being asked to legislate the entirety of society based upon a small minorities "Subjective Truth" that cannot be quantified and has no limiting factor. I think having a serious philosophical debate around the ramifications that might have on society at large is one we need to have if that's the direction we're going to go.

I am curious about something you said upthread though. How do you expand upon your statement that trans has no basis is scientific reasoning or is unobservable via the scientific method? Over a broad enough sample group, this variance certainly appears and is observed on a repeated basis. This observation has occurred in cultures older than our own.

Well to correct, I did not say Trans had no basis in scientific fact, I stated that "Gender is a social construct and is separate from Biological Sex" has no basis in scientific fact. As far as I can see, there is no way to quantify whether or not a Social Construct defines reality, yet there is a way to quantify it describing reality.

i.e. The sun did not actually revolve around the earth prior to the Copernican model even though an Earth Centric Universe was the Social Construct that described the Truth of the Universe as we knew it. The Earth always revolved around the sun. (that's my claim - I guess some could argue that they believe it actually did revolve around the earthy but...)
 
Khellendros [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 10:13:08 AM  
3 votes:

Trik: meanmutton: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.

FTFY.

What makes you believe that your opinion is any more valid than hers?


When one is based on foundations of scientific and medical consensus, and the other presses an exclusionary perspective that boils down to "I'm ok with them, I just want them to be out of my space and using other bathrooms", then yeah, there's a difference in validity.

All opinions are not equal.  For example, if someone says "Nazis had a good ideology, they just went about it incorrectly" and another states "diversity and multiculturalism is a more beneficial ideology in the free world", the latter is a more valid opinion, based both on their consequence and the data that supports it.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:11:11 AM  
3 votes:

CanisNoir: Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes? To be honest you may have to clarify your point here though, I might be misunderstanding your statement.


The point is there is far more at play than just "male" and "female" here.  We are talking about the entire genome of a person, plus all their interactions with the environment both in the womb and after birth.

However, I don't think you are informed enough on these issues to understand this.  So, I may need to start out with the basics.

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.
 
punkwrestler
2020-07-07 10:03:52 AM  
3 votes:

bglove25: tira: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

It's not me i'm worried about, it's the LITERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS who are citing her manifesto in an effort to stop "the gay agenda".

She has a platform, so like it or not she's an influencer and we HAVE to engage with her.

Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?


You mean like the recent President Orders that allow healthcare workers to discriminate against transgender people, prohibit Transgender people from the military and his administration telling schools they no longer have to protect transgender students.

They may not list her as their inspiration, but her words are giving cover to Trump and also helping to increase violence against the transgender community since she is dehumanizing them.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 9:43:08 AM  
3 votes:

meanmutton: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.

FTFY.


What makes you believe that your opinion is any more valid than hers?
 
Not_Todd
2020-07-07 9:34:57 AM  
3 votes:
How dare she say publicly something that 99% of the world agrees with!
 
Commander Lysdexic [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 8:57:58 AM  
3 votes:

Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.


Hey now, House Elves were happy in their slavery and most were well treated by owners like Dumbledore.
No one would ever make such an argument about real-world slavery.
\s
\\this is the 3rd day in a row we've had this thread, and I really, really won't blame any of Farks trans members if they choose not to participate.
\\\the last 2 threads were full of transphobic assholes
 
meanmutton
2020-07-07 8:47:15 AM  
3 votes:

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.


FTFY.
 
Fano
2020-07-07 7:58:01 AM  
3 votes:

Jake Havechek: Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?


Her handlers need to dart her.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 3:19:09 PM  
2 votes:

Khellendros: truthandjustice: And I honestly don't know much about Rowling. I've never even read her books or seen the movies based on them. I don't think she's evil though. Most people aren't.
truthandjustice: I don't even know what "leftist" is. I wonder every time I see it, but can't be bothered to google it for some reason.

You certainly have a lot of firm opinions and speak a lot on topics you admit to having little knowledge of.


Liar.*
I haven't spoken about leftists. I don't even use that word.


*Just a statement of fact.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 2:24:42 PM  
2 votes:

thatguyoverthere70: These threads stress me out.


That's because you are trying to do the impossible.
You can't control others thoughts.
Give it up.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 8:17:29 PM  
2 votes:

Enomai: Trik: Enomai: You're the one shrieking.

umm, no.

Your contribution to this thread has been, to paraphrase: "Libs be like", "you know how libs are", libs, libs, libs. "Libs want to make me tolerant, ain't gonna happen".

So, you know, shrieking.


No indoor speaking level pointing out what liberals do to those with differing opinions.
Things like doxing, stalking, harassing families, harassing employers or sponsors.
Name calling and so on.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-07 4:36:40 PM  
2 votes:

Commander Lysdexic: truthandjustice: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

I am a liberal.
And I've recently learned - that you are correct.

The world is not flat.
vaccines work.
transwomen are women.

Each of those three statements will throw a group of people into a frenzy of righteous indignation, claiming that they are the real victims of an alleged conspiracy to control them and force them to think a certain way.
All three groups are wrong.

\Does your username refer to the things you hate and want to see erased?


You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks.
And I'm not a hater.
I'm a lover :)
 
Enomai
2020-07-07 4:29:24 PM  
2 votes:

Trik: Enomai: You're the one shrieking.

umm, no.


Your contribution to this thread has been, to paraphrase: "Libs be like", "you know how libs are", libs, libs, libs. "Libs want to make me tolerant, ain't gonna happen".

So, you know, shrieking.
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 4:00:25 PM  
2 votes:

SirMadness: Okay, I'll bite.

How do you know? When you meet a woman on the street, how would you ever know if they don't match?

Even if you think you can just tell, how can you be certain they're trans and not simply in drag or a crossdresser?

At what point does it become your business?


On the street? It doesn't matter. It's only relevant when accessing a sex/gender (usually woman) restricted area. And even then, only if not convincing.
 
AgentKGB
2020-07-07 3:58:14 PM  
2 votes:

SirMadness: Okay, I'll bite.

How do you know? When you meet a woman on the street, how would you ever know if they don't match?

Even if you think you can just tell, how can you be certain they're trans and not simply in drag or a crossdresser?

At what point does it become your business?


Conservatives have this idea in their head that all mtf trans people look like

78.media.tumblr.comView Full Size


The same people who will spend all day screeching about "smaller government" want to make sure that people only have sex between a man, and a woman (probably in the dark in a missionary position through a blanket with a hole in it)
 
AgentKGB
2020-07-07 3:55:10 PM  
2 votes:

Eclectic: *re-checks thread over lunch*

Damn, some of y'all must have thrown your backa out carrying all that water for TERFs

But *thank you, allies* for being here and fighting the good fight. Much respect and love 💜


I'm sorry you and other LBTQG2S+ have to go through this every time there's a Fark thread about these kind of issues and the whargblblbl crowd shows up to tell us all that you're not real people.
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 3:33:09 PM  
2 votes:

Khellendros: This is a minor, piddling concern that isn't handled in the dozens of cases and abnormalities I cited above either. At this point, we're talking about rights to use bathrooms and not be assumed to be a sexual predator, or to have legal rights to change your gender on state forms, or not be fired, or have rights to housing.


That was the easiest example, and is the direct result of advocates saying "transwomen are women".

Bathrooms - are they sex or gender based? Many would argue sex. This is probably one of the biggest sticking points, since it requires the general public to modify their behavior. Good luck with that.
Gender on state forms - most forms I've seen (though this varies), have sex, not gender. Transwomen are not female sex. This is probably an argument to include both.

I agree that being fired or evicted because of being trans should not be a thing.

Khellendros: If your argument against legal protections and equality for transpersons is based on whether someone in a weightlifting competition has a penis or too much testosterone, go reexamine your basic ethics and human empathy. You're not useful to the conversation and your opinion isn't worth evaluating.


Yeah, immediately screaming at anyone not 100% on board certainly helps the trans cause.
 
LowbrowDeluxe
2020-07-07 3:28:34 PM  
2 votes:
bglove25:

So, you her publisher or what?  I'm just having trouble imagining why else someone would be this invested in pretending her opinion holds no weight.
 
Geotpf
2020-07-07 2:38:32 PM  
2 votes:
Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"
 
Commander Lysdexic [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 2:13:24 PM  
2 votes:

truthandjustice: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

I am a liberal.
And I've recently learned - that you are correct.


The world is not flat.
vaccines work.
transwomen are women.

Each of those three statements will throw a group of people into a frenzy of righteous indignation, claiming that they are the real victims of an alleged conspiracy to control them and force them to think a certain way.
All three groups are wrong.

\Does your username refer to the things you hate and want to see erased?
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 1:39:08 PM  
2 votes:

karl2025: Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.


There's always a hideous amount of problems when people try to treat X as Y.

To most of the populace, a woman is someone who has both female sex and female gender. Does this mean transwomen should be excluded from women only things? To those people following that definition, yes. Telling those people that it is exclusionary or bigoted is the same as saying excluding men from women only things is exclusionary/bigoted. It's not going to work.
 
Voodoo_Stu
2020-07-07 12:27:42 PM  
2 votes:
Rowling was always like this, at least on this issue.

Dumbledore kept dead naming Voldemort.  "Never be afraid to call a thing by its name."  It was even plot-centric, that Harry had to know what he was, before he became the Dark Lord that he later identified as.  Sure, it isn't about gender, but it shows the values.

Hermione and SPEW, where she kept insisting she knew better than the elves about their situation.

These people are seen as the good guys, brave for their belief, and everyone else as cowardly, apathetic, or outright self-serving on the issues.  The "Wizarding world" on its whole has a bunch of flaws (love potions and memory charms have already been mentioned), but few of them are called out as wrong, instead of as simply a nuisance to the main characters.

She didn't change.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 12:13:48 PM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.


What makes you think I'm acting as a spokesman for the trans community, or any community.  I've been very clear about my purpose in posting in this thread: to make sure everyone knows that you have no idea what you are talking about, and that your opinion is, thus, completely worthless.

Other people in this thread can fight the bigger war.  Making sure everyone knows that they shouldn't listen to a word you say, since you have no idea what you are talking about, is the only battle I'm fighting here.
 
hammer85 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 12:13:25 PM  
2 votes:
It's like every day there's a new rotations of stupid assholes that come into these threads to "well actually" stupid nonsense.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 11:09:23 AM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: Nope.My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.

No, you're point is to simply be an arsehole because you can't fathom that people are having their families torn apart and friends devastated by this and they just might want to try and understand the other side so the suffering can stop.

You have proven to be an arsehole and not interested in honest debate with the goal of common understanding. You're wasting my time and I am done with you.


Says the guy who came into this thread spewing easily-disprovable horseshiat about gender and sex.  Here's a hint, if you want an "honest" debate, don't start out by spewing obvious falsehoods.

We never even got to question two before you bailed.  Sad.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:52:51 AM  
2 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith. My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.


So you're not actually interested in people understanding so long as you can sit on the side lines in self assumed smugness shutting down any honest attempt at getting to the deeper issue and trying to come to an understanding

Bravo you are an arsehole and part of the problem.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:50:18 AM  
2 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?


So I admit, I did not major in Biology, so I pulled my answer from Live Sciences article :Chromosomes: Definition & Structure

https://www.livescience.com/27248-chr​o​mosomes.html

How sex is determined
Humans have an additional pair of sex chromosomes for a total of 46 chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are referred to as X and Y, and their combination determines a person's sex. Typically, human females have two X chromosomes while males possess an XY pairing. This XY sex-determination system is found in most mammals as well as some reptiles and plants.
Whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes is determined when a sperm fertilizes an egg. Unlike the body's other cells, the cells in the egg and sperm - called gametes or sex cells - possess only one chromosome. Gametes are produced by meiosis cell division, which results in the divided cells having half the number of chromosomes as the parent, or progenitor, cells. In the case of humans, this means that parent cells have two chromosomes and gametes have one.
All of the gametes in the mother's eggs possess X chromosomes. The father's sperm contains about half X and half Y chromosomes. The sperm are the variable factor in determining the sex of the baby. If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male.


Please expand on that answer since it appears you have more knowledge on the subject than I.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:45:19 AM  
2 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: We don't refer to the distinct genotypes in society. That's the point. The concept of race is based on human perception, but not on the reality of the situation.


Then what is the purpose of the social construct?
 
LowbrowDeluxe
2020-07-07 10:25:05 AM  
2 votes:
Sudden spate of brand new NounNumber accounts.  How...expected.
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:02:30 AM  
2 votes:

Armored Vomit Doll: Any explanation (or rule) which does not account for all possibilities is not a scientific explanation. Scientists doesn't ignore things which are inconvenient to their claims, they modify their claims to account for them.


Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes? To be honest you may have to clarify your point here though, I might be misunderstanding your statement.

Science is the search for the truth, which means it doesn't get to ignore empirical reality just because reality throws a monkey-wrench into what people wants to believe.

So you do believe in an "Objective Reality" and that Science is the search for that, good.

What purpose do Social Constructs have in relation to that objective reality? Do they define it or would you say they are more of a descriptor?
 
Camus' Ghost
2020-07-07 9:54:17 AM  
2 votes:

lolmao500: JK rowling was always white UK trash?


A chav without a track suit?
 
bglove25 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 9:53:38 AM  
2 votes:

tira: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

It's not me i'm worried about, it's the LITERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS who are citing her manifesto in an effort to stop "the gay agenda".

She has a platform, so like it or not she's an influencer and we HAVE to engage with her.


Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?
 
bglove25 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 9:51:21 AM  
2 votes:

punkwrestler: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

The trouble is she has so many followers on her twitter, that if her bigoted beliefs aren't countered, then that will make life worse for the transgender community.


Will it though? Are her followers (many of whom seem real pissed off) so idiotic that they'll automatically agree with everything she says? And vote that way? Assuming they vote?   Just breath deep and ignore her.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 9:48:59 AM  
2 votes:

CanisNoir: Do you believe Science is the search for the truth or the search to disprove the truth?


You obviously believe neither, since you hand-wave away empirical reality when it gets in the way of your arguments.
 
Karne
2020-07-07 9:22:23 AM  
2 votes:

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.


Awe, it's not easy being a bigoted racist these days Gramps!
 
HotWingConspiracy
2020-07-07 8:58:40 AM  
2 votes:

Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.


They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.
 
tira
2020-07-07 8:47:53 AM  
2 votes:

bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.


It's not me i'm worried about, it's the LITERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS who are citing her manifesto in an effort to stop "the gay agenda".

She has a platform, so like it or not she's an influencer and we HAVE to engage with her.
 
punkwrestler
2020-07-07 8:39:18 AM  
2 votes:

bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.


The trouble is she has so many followers on her twitter, that if her bigoted beliefs aren't countered, then that will make life worse for the transgender community.
 
hestheone
2020-07-07 8:26:00 AM  
2 votes:
I think it's great that she gets a forum for her opinions funded by folks who are only interested in the value of her as clickbait.
 
karl2025 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 8:21:06 AM  
2 votes:

Jake Havechek: Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?


Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.
 
Bslim [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 7:57:48 AM  
2 votes:
She comes off downright unhinged on this issue.
 
Jake Havechek [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 7:54:59 AM  
2 votes:
Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?
 
snowjack [BareFark] [OhFark]
2020-07-07 5:39:15 AM  
2 votes:
Even the rich and famous are imperfect. News at 11.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 4:03:43 PM  
1 vote:

Enomai: truthandjustice: Enomai: Also, please stop conflating leftism and liberalism. All Americans are liberals by definition under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Please show me where I did this. I never use the word "leftism".
Also, seems I'm not alone in my - liberal - confusion:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook​/2019/09/12/stop-calling-bernie-sander​s-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-liberals/

You didn't. I'm inferring from your diction that when you refer to thought controlling liberals that you are actually describing leftists, who are authoritarian. Liberalism concerns the tenets of the first amendment and the consent of the governed and that's it. So anyone who is "anti-liberalism" is saying, based on what that word means, that they don't believe in free speech, the right to peacefully assemble, and the free press. The WaPo article you link to gets to the point I'm making. And though I personally find both disagreeable, David Rubin had Ben Shapiro on his podcast and this exact point was made to the extent that even Ben Shapiro recognized the importance of not saying liberal when you mean leftist.

This thought control issue that you have is not something that a liberal would disagree with you on is my point. You can have authoritarians on both the left and right side of the political spectrum.


Yes.
I realized what you were getting at when I got to this part of the article:
"Differences between liberalism and radicalism also surface in our ceaseless debates over free speech on campus, online and elsewhere. Seeing equal rights as the cornerstone of a just society, liberals insist speakers should not be silenced for expressing unpopular or offensive views.
A growing faction on the far left, however, mirroring elements of the religious right, favors denying free-speech rights to those who hold ideas it believes crosses inviolable lines - leading to incidents like the assaults on political scientist Charles Murray at Middlebury College or conservative journalist Andy Ngo in Portland, Ore. (The appropriateness of preemptive violence can also be a dividing line between liberalism and radicalism.)"

And now that I've read about it, I would not call myself a Leftist - Progressive... Liberal? Sure.
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 3:07:13 PM  
1 vote:

Enomai: Also, please stop conflating leftism and liberalism. All Americans are liberals by definition under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


Please show me where I did this. I never use the word "leftism".
Also, seems I'm not alone in my - liberal - confusion:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outloo​k​/2019/09/12/stop-calling-bernie-sander​s-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-liberals/
 
truthandjustice
2020-07-08 2:51:23 PM  
1 vote:

Enomai: truthandjustice: thatguyoverthere70: truthandjustice: thatguyoverthere70: truthandjustice: You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks.

If you truly believe this, then stop acting like you're the victim.

Say what now.
Not THAT is projection.
???
Please point to my victim act. When did it happen? What time.. which post ... where ??

1. The thread from a couple of days ago where you said you were there because you were morbidly fascinated to see other liberals attacking you.

2. Your initial writings in this thread, where you just had to point out that you agree with that farker and you also think your fellow liberals are so mean and that they try to dictate what others think and say.

3. The post I responded to and quoted directly above where you say "You do not have the right to control the way any one else thinks. You do not have the ABILITY to control the way anyone else thinks" Because for you this is all about the feelings you get when YOU get when YOU feel attacked and when YOU think it's all about someone trying to control the way YOU think. For you, this isn't about trans people and their rights, it's about your right to say you agree with JK Rowling.

If you want to agree with Rowling, go for it. No one here has stopped you.

oh wow I have a stalker.

First, DO NOT LIE.
It's ugly. And God don't like ugly.

I never said anything about anyone being "mean".
I think it's sad - for liberals - that they feel like they can control other's thoughts.
It is a sad realization in life when you learn the truth that - the only one you can control is yourself.
And it's frustrating when you want to control the way others see you and perceive you, when you literally cannot. Again, all you can control is your own reactions.
But then as you mature you realize that it's not so frustrating - it can be empowering to learn this. Because YOU get to decide how you will react, and who you will p ...


I'm a liberal. I am not a liberal who believes in controlling other's thoughts.
And I may not be political enough for y'all.
I don't even know what "leftist" is. I wonder every time I see it, but can't be bothered to google it for some reason.
Think I'll do that now..
 
Enomai
2020-07-07 8:47:25 PM  
1 vote:

Trik: Enomai: Trik: Enomai: You're the one shrieking.

umm, no.

Your contribution to this thread has been, to paraphrase: "Libs be like", "you know how libs are", libs, libs, libs. "Libs want to make me tolerant, ain't gonna happen".

So, you know, shrieking.

No indoor speaking level pointing out what liberals do to those with differing opinions.
Things like doxing, stalking, harassing families, harassing employers or sponsors.
Name calling and so on.


Lol. Here's my calm indoor speaking voice pointing out that you used "toxic liberal" as a pejorative so you yourself are name calling in this very thread. I guess we need not dwell on the fact that the original doxxing was in the 90s and was when right wing extremists posted a list of abortion providers complete with markings for wounded and killed doctors who performed a procedure protected by US law. Are you just upset that your adversaries now use the tactic? They hardly have a monopoly on it. Harassing sponsors? I still remember the conservatives picketing the small businesses in New Orleans who advertised on the Stern show. Evidently this is now bad because the other side does it. Harassing families? Like the Westboro Baptist right wingers who harass the families of dead soldiers, you mean like that or is there a different situation? Cause they aren't left wing. Stalking, you mean like when the pizzagate conspiracy people showed up with guns looking for abused kids to a legit business or do you mean like when the Gamergaters forced people to leave their homes under death threats? Those also aren't leftists.

Clear the mote from your own eye, sir.
 
soporific [TotalFark]
2020-07-07 5:23:50 PM  
1 vote:

bglove25: PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.

Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.


It is often used to justify violence. You don't get credit for not threatening violence when you find yourself in wholehearted agreement with those who do. Especially when they turn around and use your words to justify their violence.
 
Jgok [OhFark]
2020-07-07 5:19:59 PM  
1 vote:

FeuDePoubelle: CanisNoir: Enomai: CanisNoir: Enomai: God damn, three of these in 3 days? Fark is really farming this topic right now. Has to be exhausting for trans people to keep defending this with the same posts pointed at different screen names.

As exhausting as it is for Lesbians having to defend themselves against accusations of Bigotry because they feel that not liking male sex organs is a large part of their Lesbian Identity.

Yes, it's exhausting but it's a debate that needs to be had.

If it needs to be had, I have questions as to whether an anonymous forum as snarky as this place would be the appropriate venue for it. Lesbians might not be attracted to male parts, but pansexuals probably do not have an issue with them since sex isn't the primary vector for attraction. Why then isn't it sufficient to just say that you aren't into those people? If you aren't bigoted then don't take offense when someone tries to label you as such. You have agency as much as anyone does to choose a partner for yourself. I'm a southerner who doesn't fly confederate flags and thinks racism is one of THE things holding back humanity. The mocking in the public space of the "south will rise" jackasses doesn't land with me and doesn't make me defensive.

Well first, I stated up front that the Trans community was suffering and that needs attention, I also stipulated that Social Constructs were real and that any one persons identity was valid. I do not see any attempts at mockery in that - there tacit recognition of each individuals "Truth" as being valid.

As to why a public forum? Because it's a public debate, and sadly the venues with which to have it in are very limited. I try to keep my points to the broader philosophical debate as I see it and hope I get some intelligent people from the other side to challenge me and I try and ignore the chaff - occasionally piping in, admittedly.

I think I am right but am no way claiming I absolutely am right - this is why I hope for intelligent challenge.

Regarding ...

As a person who identifies as a lesbian, I must say that you seem to be rather black and white in your assessment of what makes a lesbian a lesbian.  Trans women who identify as lesbian, ARE lesbians.  Lesbian is an identity and a sexual orientation.

You are assuming all sorts of things about individuals here.  Some lesbians will not enter into relationships with an individual possessing male genitalia.  Some really don't care about genitalia possessed as long as the person generally fits their type and the sex is compatible.  Personally, I'm not interested in men.  I'm also not attracted to trans men either, because they're men. I don't care what is or isn't in their pants, I'm attracted to women.  I refer to my partners by she/hers.  By your logic, lesbians should be dating trans men and cis women.  But really you miss the main point of these lesbians being deplatformed for their 'preferences.'  A man having a blog or youtube channel or whatever and using that to say that he's just 'not attracted to black women' is racist and should be treated as such.  A lesbian saying she won't date another woman because of her physical attributes on a public platform invites the same kinds of response.

It seems to me that you are essentially boiling relationships down to sex and sexual objectification.  It's also the same simplistic way you seem to treat biological sex.  Biological sex is expressed in so many different ways via different mechanisms.  As others have pointed out, you're completely ignoring intersex individuals.  Nature doesn't just fit neatly into binary boxes.


Well said, but you won't make any progress with him. He's sealioning like he always does.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 5:04:07 PM  
1 vote:

PickleBarrel: Armored Vomit Doll: bglove25: PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.

Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.

Henry II: Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?

sigh...and I wasted all those other words...


Brevity is ... wit.
 
PickleBarrel
2020-07-07 4:59:17 PM  
1 vote:

Geotpf: hammer85: Geotpf: Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"

Fark this argument and fark everything about considering it "logical".  Farking just respect and love people for who they are, not what you want to dictate them to be and do.

To get a larger percentage of people to accept trans people for who they are, reasonable counters to arguments like this need to be made.  Just screaming "Fark you" is not helpful.


Dude. If these people were reasonable, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
PickleBarrel
2020-07-07 4:48:01 PM  
1 vote:

bglove25: PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.

Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.


Ever heard the phrase "The pen is mightier than the sword"?

One of the things that people do to make it easier to harm others is to dehumanize them.  That IS speech.  The aggregate weight of constant dehumanization, the constant slander and libel of who these people are, the steady stream of disrespect and hate; these things encourage others to join in the hate and eventually commit physical and emotional harm.  When this becomes systemic, then you really start getting into the subtle persistent evil that can be committed against people.

So you are correct, she did not incite violence and words themselves cannot harm others in the literal sense, but she did encourage others to join in the hate and eventually, there is and will be violence committed.
 
hammer85 [BareFark]
2020-07-07 4:35:09 PM  
1 vote:

trialpha: Khellendros: See, this is where you completely trip over your own argument. The public doesn't have to change shiat. Stop bugging people about what goddamn bathroom they use. I don't have to change a damn thing about my bathroom habits, regardless of whether a transperson decides to use the bathroom I'm in or not. Leave. Them. The. Fark. Alone. About. It.

I don't either. But women do. Because they've spent their entire lives with "someone who looks like a man walking into their washroom = problem"

Khellendros: Utterly irrelevant, and people like you seem to have a pathological need to make definitions based on biological distinctions you clearly don't understand to exclude people. We don't need to have the lunch counter argument again. We don't need "separate but equal" bathrooms based on gender, sex, genitalia, testosterone levels, Y chromosome tests, or anything else.

At this point, you're effectively advocating for unisex bathrooms. I don't have a problem with that (as long as urinals are still present), but again, women do.

Khellendros: I didn't scream. I said if people's arguments are based on stupid idea, they're not worth discussing. Telling someone who's convinced that blacks shouldn't have the same rights until we define if they need to wear reflectors at night while jogging isn't a worthwhile discussion. And they're idiots if they're making those arguments. Same with sporting classifications or whether bathrooms should be based on sex, gender, or some other arbitrary concept. I don't give a fark if JK Rowling is uncomfortable with someone in the stall next to her. If they're in there pissing, leave them alone about it.

"Not worth discussing", "idiots", etc. You've just lost the support of anybody who may have been mostly on your side but needed to be convinced of the remainder. Now, instead of a possible ally, you have someone going "fark your cause"


Why is it always women?  Why do we assume women are so farking precious and helpless that they can't even pee in a farking private stall without worried that there might be another woman in the stall next to them who might be using a penis to pee at the same time.

What about men having to go against transgender men in sports?  What about transmen in men's bathrooms?  I'm willing to bet more transmen are assaulted in bathrooms than transwomen or people pretending to be them assaulting women in them.

A person whipping their dick out in a ladies locker room, trans or not, is still harassment.  There's nothing a bathroom bill/sports bill is designed to do is parrot bullshiat think of the virgin white women who are sacred above all else but don't somehow also deserve their own body autonomy and fark trans people because I think they don't deserve rights.

I almost feel bad for transmen.  It's like they don't even matter enough to be discriminated against publicly.
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 3:49:31 PM  
1 vote:

Khellendros: See, this is where you completely trip over your own argument. The public doesn't have to change shiat. Stop bugging people about what goddamn bathroom they use. I don't have to change a damn thing about my bathroom habits, regardless of whether a transperson decides to use the bathroom I'm in or not. Leave. Them. The. Fark. Alone. About. It.


I don't either. But women do. Because they've spent their entire lives with "someone who looks like a man walking into their washroom = problem"

Khellendros: Utterly irrelevant, and people like you seem to have a pathological need to make definitions based on biological distinctions you clearly don't understand to exclude people. We don't need to have the lunch counter argument again. We don't need "separate but equal" bathrooms based on gender, sex, genitalia, testosterone levels, Y chromosome tests, or anything else.


At this point, you're effectively advocating for unisex bathrooms. I don't have a problem with that (as long as urinals are still present), but again, women do.

Khellendros: I didn't scream. I said if people's arguments are based on stupid idea, they're not worth discussing. Telling someone who's convinced that blacks shouldn't have the same rights until we define if they need to wear reflectors at night while jogging isn't a worthwhile discussion. And they're idiots if they're making those arguments. Same with sporting classifications or whether bathrooms should be based on sex, gender, or some other arbitrary concept. I don't give a fark if JK Rowling is uncomfortable with someone in the stall next to her. If they're in there pissing, leave them alone about it.


"Not worth discussing", "idiots", etc. You've just lost the support of anybody who may have been mostly on your side but needed to be convinced of the remainder. Now, instead of a possible ally, you have someone going "fark your cause"
 
Geotpf
2020-07-07 3:04:22 PM  
1 vote:

hammer85: Geotpf: Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"

Fark this argument and fark everything about considering it "logical".  Farking just respect and love people for who they are, not what you want to dictate them to be and do.


To get a larger percentage of people to accept trans people for who they are, reasonable counters to arguments like this need to be made.  Just screaming "Fark you" is not helpful.
 
trialpha
2020-07-07 2:35:05 PM  
1 vote:

Commander Lysdexic: Truth is not democratic and human rights should never be assigned based on popular vote.


Sure, but that's irrelevant when you're trying to convince the 90% of the people who believe otherwise.

Commander Lysdexic: transwomen are women.


What definition of woman are you using? If it's just gender, sure. If it includes sex - and a lot of people do - it's patently false.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 12:39:36 PM  
1 vote:

Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"

Keep reading the thread .......

I did, but in your Weeners, the one I commented on, you came across as dismissive and arrogant, claiming to have done something you hadn't actually done.


Yeah, there's a purpose for that.  Sea-lion repellent, as it were.
 
Cormee
2020-07-07 12:18:02 PM  
1 vote:

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.


You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 12:06:01 PM  
1 vote:

CanisNoir: Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


And, until you learn basic biology, genetics and psychology, you shouldn't speak on this issue.  Maybe I'm a bit acerbic, but at least I know what I'm talking about.

Remember, we can all scroll up and see how you entered this thread.  And conclude for ourselves whether you were ever interested in "honest" debate.
 
Fano
2020-07-07 10:48:51 AM  
1 vote:

Trik: Fano: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification

Didn't read the books but don't recall dater rape in the movies.
With the memory modification iirc it was kill them or make them forget type thing.


Well, Voldemort's father was drugged by his mother for several months to keep him unable to avoid impregnating her. When the potion wore off he ran away immediately. This is seen as a flaw IN HIM.
Ron ends up getting hit with a spiked sweet that makes him madly in love with some random girl. This is played for laughs. It comes up multiple times in the books about making love charms.
No one seems particularly horrified and this isn't just a 90s thing, in Fantastic Breasts and where to find them a muggle is basically charmed for years on end to stay in love with a character.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:45:12 AM  
1 vote:

CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.


Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?
 
CanisNoir
2020-07-07 10:42:33 AM  
1 vote:

Khellendros: CanisNoir: Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes?

You're begging the question.  What you've asked requires there to be only two sexes, and precludes other (demonstrably existing) options.


Fair point, it's early I should have worded it differently and asked in what way quantifiable way has biology deviated from sex being male and female.

Thanks for the correction.
 
Armored Vomit Doll
2020-07-07 10:37:57 AM  
1 vote:
Not sure if CanisNoir is ever coming back.  But I will provide a hint:

It isn't actually the pretense or absence of the Y chromosome that determines whether you get a male human or a female one.  It is far more subtle and complicated than that.  But most Farkers who like to blather about gender being related to sex never learned biology past high school (if even then), so they don't have any clue how things like this actually work.
 
Trik
2020-07-07 10:31:40 AM  
1 vote:

Fano: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification


Didn't read the books but don't recall dater rape in the movies.
With the memory modification iirc it was kill them or make them forget type thing.
 
Keethera
2020-07-07 9:33:49 AM  
1 vote:
meh... i was expecting something more outrageous.  but on the other hand doesn't she have anything better to do?  come on jk rowling, can't you do something a little more positive during this crazy time than criticize people for their own choices? jk's not even a trans, right?  (im wondering a little bit now...)  that'd be like me having a problem with other people getting boob jobs and tattoos.... who cares? not my beeswax

/i don't know anything about transgender hormone therapy other than it's for chicks with dicks to become more chicky and less dicky
 
tira
2020-07-07 8:36:12 AM  
1 vote:
Uh, never? We've been over how sexist and racist and, generally, posh the HP novels are a million times at this point.

Hell even John Oliver took a swing at her for the Scottish referendum.
 
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