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(The Atlantic)   When did J.K. Rowling go from being Hermione to...well, the article says Voldemort but she's really acting like Umbridge   (theatlantic.com) divider line
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1052 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 07 Jul 2020 at 7:42 AM (21 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-07 11:51:44 AM  

CanisNoir: I stated that "Gender is a social construct and is separate from Biological Sex" has no basis in scientific fact.


I do not have time at the moment to dig in to the underlying research at the moment but that is pretty much the verbatim position on that topic of the APA today as we are having this discussion. I am curious if you think that they arrived at that based on feeling or research or if you have a holding that invalidates PhD's of Psychology.
 
2020-07-07 11:55:07 AM  

Enomai: CanisNoir: I stated that "Gender is a social construct and is separate from Biological Sex" has no basis in scientific fact.

I do not have time at the moment to dig in to the underlying research at the moment but that is pretty much the verbatim position on that topic of the APA today as we are having this discussion. I am curious if you think that they arrived at that based on feeling or research or if you have a holding that invalidates PhD's of Psychology.


CanisNoir couldn't even pass a first-year undergraduate exam on human biology/genetics, and you expect him to have anything even remotely knowledgeable to say on this topic?

Good luck!
 
2020-07-07 11:57:09 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.


I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.
 
2020-07-07 12:02:05 PM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.

I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


Lol.  Complete horseshiat.

My comments have only been directed at you and your total ignorance of basic biology and genetics.  The topic could be anything related to sexual reproduction/gender identity/etc. and I would have responded to you the same way.

Sorry that having your complete lack of knowledge thrown back in your face triggers you so much, snowflake.  But that is only about you, and not transgender issues.
 
2020-07-07 12:06:01 PM  

CanisNoir: Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


And, until you learn basic biology, genetics and psychology, you shouldn't speak on this issue.  Maybe I'm a bit acerbic, but at least I know what I'm talking about.

Remember, we can all scroll up and see how you entered this thread.  And conclude for ourselves whether you were ever interested in "honest" debate.
 
2020-07-07 12:13:25 PM  
It's like every day there's a new rotations of stupid assholes that come into these threads to "well actually" stupid nonsense.
 
2020-07-07 12:13:48 PM  

CanisNoir: You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.


What makes you think I'm acting as a spokesman for the trans community, or any community.  I've been very clear about my purpose in posting in this thread: to make sure everyone knows that you have no idea what you are talking about, and that your opinion is, thus, completely worthless.

Other people in this thread can fight the bigger war.  Making sure everyone knows that they shouldn't listen to a word you say, since you have no idea what you are talking about, is the only battle I'm fighting here.
 
2020-07-07 12:17:06 PM  
Third thread in three days where all the trans Farkers get to watch as their existence and validity is endlessly debated like some intellectual exercise. Party bonus that there's a sealioning concern troll account that's risen from the vasty deeps to shiat all over the place.

Too f*cking exhausted to really engage at this point. Have fun, kids.
 
2020-07-07 12:18:02 PM  

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.


You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"
 
2020-07-07 12:19:12 PM  

Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"


Keep reading the thread .......
 
2020-07-07 12:19:40 PM  
CanisNoir:Well, she has some valid points worth exploring don't you think?

No, she has no valid points.

CanisNoir: In a time where biological females

Newsflash for you : All "females" are biological, just like all "males" are biological.  In order to not be "biological", they'd need to be inorganic.  (Perhaps you think some hu-mons are made from rocks or something?)

CanisNoir: should Gender be separated from Biological sex.

Again, all sex is biological.

Perhaps instead of trotting out stuff you learned in middle school, you could do some actual learning on the topic?      Here's a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?​v=uDeNDX​4geXo (A video from a University biology professor.)
 
2020-07-07 12:27:42 PM  
Rowling was always like this, at least on this issue.

Dumbledore kept dead naming Voldemort.  "Never be afraid to call a thing by its name."  It was even plot-centric, that Harry had to know what he was, before he became the Dark Lord that he later identified as.  Sure, it isn't about gender, but it shows the values.

Hermione and SPEW, where she kept insisting she knew better than the elves about their situation.

These people are seen as the good guys, brave for their belief, and everyone else as cowardly, apathetic, or outright self-serving on the issues.  The "Wizarding world" on its whole has a bunch of flaws (love potions and memory charms have already been mentioned), but few of them are called out as wrong, instead of as simply a nuisance to the main characters.

She didn't change.
 
2020-07-07 12:37:14 PM  
pbs.twimg.comView Full Size


Uh...

In other news Margaret Atwood is raging against TERFs who love the Handmaid's Tale.
 
2020-07-07 12:37:38 PM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"

Keep reading the thread .......


I did, but in your Weeners, the one I commented on, you came across as dismissive and arrogant, claiming to have done something you hadn't actually done.
 
2020-07-07 12:39:36 PM  

Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"

Keep reading the thread .......

I did, but in your Weeners, the one I commented on, you came across as dismissive and arrogant, claiming to have done something you hadn't actually done.


Yeah, there's a purpose for that.  Sea-lion repellent, as it were.
 
2020-07-07 12:40:09 PM  
https://twitter.com/MargaretAtwood/wi​t​h_replies

If you want some contrast from J Karen Rowling.

"Harry Potter And The Bigoted Old Crone Who Dismantled Her Own Legacy"
 
2020-07-07 12:44:29 PM  

Eclectic: Third thread in three days where all the trans Farkers get to watch as their existence and validity is endlessly debated like some intellectual exercise. Party bonus that there's a sealioning concern troll account that's risen from the vasty deeps to shiat all over the place.

Too f*cking exhausted to really engage at this point. Have fun, kids.


As exhausting as this has to have been for you as of late, you should know this: About a month ago, I asked in a thread a few clinical type questions around certain aspects of the trans experience. One person got personally annoyed with me and responded as such. Others pointed me towards what I was asking about. I looked for additional cultural examples and continued to follow the threads and do my own reading. Today, I am in this thread trying to shoulder some of the intellectual load discussing things with the some of the other non empathetic readers. I'm not perfect by any means, but I'm in this thread today trying to help as a result of people sharing the info and having the patience to answer. I know it's exhausting and it would be great if you didn't have to do it nigh constantly, but it does help.Sometimes at least.
 
2020-07-07 12:51:40 PM  

Voodoo_Stu: Rowling was always like this, at least on this issue.

Dumbledore kept dead naming Voldemort.  "Never be afraid to call a thing by its name."  It was even plot-centric, that Harry had to know what he was, before he became the Dark Lord that he later identified as.  Sure, it isn't about gender, but it shows the values.

Hermione and SPEW, where she kept insisting she knew better than the elves about their situation.

These people are seen as the good guys, brave for their belief, and everyone else as cowardly, apathetic, or outright self-serving on the issues.  The "Wizarding world" on its whole has a bunch of flaws (love potions and memory charms have already been mentioned), but few of them are called out as wrong, instead of as simply a nuisance to the main characters.

She didn't change.


I don't know that dead naming, in this context, is a bad thing. Did Obi Wan have to be respectful of Anakin's desire to be called Darth Vader?
Criminals take on aliases but I'm pretty sure no one has to give a shiat what guise they pretend to.
 
2020-07-07 1:01:35 PM  

Karne: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Awe, it's not easy being a bigoted racist these days Gramps!


One day when you are older, you will realize that the ultra-left and the ultra-right are the exact same people with different ideologies. If you can't see how both of them use outrage and "fighting the good fight" as a means to control thought then you really have zero understanding of how groupthink works. The constant outrage without any nuance or logical reasoning is toxic and dangerous. Just because someone plays on the same team as you, doesn't mean they have the same values as you. Go study how young people in China and Russia, during the blossoming of fascism cloaked as communism, acted like. You will find their level of intolerance is just as horrific as those who are goose stepping to the hard right, evangelical Nazism mindset.  And if you think that history doesn't repeat itself or "today's ultra liberals" won't ever be like they were... then you really have a long way to go before you understand people and history.
 
2020-07-07 1:26:53 PM  

bglove25: Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?


This one, when blocking legislation
 
2020-07-07 1:35:27 PM  

CanisNoir: I wasn't going to address you any more and honestly, I'm too emotionally involved now to continue debating, but there is something you should think about.

You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn. You are an abysmal spokesperson for the Trans community.

You do nothing to help them but instead insist upon furthering the wedge between them and those they love.

Until you can learn some human decency and at the very least some empathy, in my opinion, you shouldn't speak on the subject unless your goal is to hurt the Trans Community because that is the result of your actions.


wondermark.comView Full Size
 
2020-07-07 1:37:20 PM  

hammer85: It's like every day there's a new rotations of stupid assholes that come into these threads to "well actually" stupid nonsense.


I will never forget Mr 'well AKCHULLY the dictionary definition of bigotry (which I demand we discuss) is...' - He will always have a place in my heart.
 
2020-07-07 1:39:08 PM  

karl2025: Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.


There's always a hideous amount of problems when people try to treat X as Y.

To most of the populace, a woman is someone who has both female sex and female gender. Does this mean transwomen should be excluded from women only things? To those people following that definition, yes. Telling those people that it is exclusionary or bigoted is the same as saying excluding men from women only things is exclusionary/bigoted. It's not going to work.
 
2020-07-07 2:01:40 PM  

trialpha: karl2025: Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.

There's always a hideous amount of problems when people try to treat X as Y.

To most of the populace, a woman is someone who has both female sex and female gender. Does this mean transwomen should be excluded from women only things? To those people following that definition, yes. Telling those people that it is exclusionary or bigoted is the same as saying excluding men from women only things is exclusionary/bigoted. It's not going to work.


You're going to need to cite that statistic because I'm pretty sure that you're just quoting your own confirmation bias.
 
2020-07-07 2:09:02 PM  

trialpha: To most of the populace, a woman is someone who has both female sex and female gender.


Truth is not democratic and human rights should never be assigned based on popular vote.
 
2020-07-07 2:10:48 PM  

punkwrestler: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

And you didn't even mention how the goblin bankers are crook nosed, showing her anti-Semitic feelings.


A few days ago I ha heard a streamer claim that the goblins in world of Warcraft were also based on jews, I always thought of them as being more like ferengi.
 
2020-07-07 2:13:24 PM  

truthandjustice: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

I am a liberal.
And I've recently learned - that you are correct.


The world is not flat.
vaccines work.
transwomen are women.

Each of those three statements will throw a group of people into a frenzy of righteous indignation, claiming that they are the real victims of an alleged conspiracy to control them and force them to think a certain way.
All three groups are wrong.

\Does your username refer to the things you hate and want to see erased?
 
2020-07-07 2:34:15 PM  

Wraithstrike: At this point, JK Rowling has become this generation's H.P. Lovecraft.

She created a fantastic world, with a lot of interesting lore that people will be talking about for ages. There will be fanfiction, movies, tv series, video games of the world she has created. The world she made will far outlive her.

However, the person behind those works has willfully chosen to be on the wrong side of history. The author's personal stances will forever color the perception of the fans and the general consensus will be to appreciate the works, but reject the person who made them.


Well, I was thinking I might say something - and then you said it all for me, but in a much more articulate fashion.  Thank you kindly.
 
2020-07-07 2:35:05 PM  

Commander Lysdexic: Truth is not democratic and human rights should never be assigned based on popular vote.


Sure, but that's irrelevant when you're trying to convince the 90% of the people who believe otherwise.

Commander Lysdexic: transwomen are women.


What definition of woman are you using? If it's just gender, sure. If it includes sex - and a lot of people do - it's patently false.
 
2020-07-07 2:37:46 PM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Cormee: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.

I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

You didn't demonstrate anything. All you said was "false, try again"

Keep reading the thread .......


Your posts taking the sea lion out behind the woodshed so thoroughly that it freaked out on you abandoned the thread was an incredibly satisfying read, cheers!
 
2020-07-07 2:38:32 PM  
Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"
 
2020-07-07 2:42:37 PM  

Geotpf: So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?


Since trans advocates are arguing "transwomen are women", yes.

And they wonder why people have a problem with that.
 
2020-07-07 2:44:48 PM  

Commander Lysdexic: bglove25: Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?

This one, when blocking legislation


Ah yes, the famously pro-Trans Senate, being held up by one pesky vote.... oh wait that's not the situation and this is a grandstanding tactic? And blocking new legislation isn't taking away rights that are already granted (like say, taking away protections for LGBTQ+ employees, which would get stuck down immediately). So again, unless you think JK Rowling is actually influential on Mitch McConnell... But feel free to get super upset about it.
 
2020-07-07 2:46:04 PM  

Geotpf: Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"


Fark this argument and fark everything about considering it "logical".  Farking just respect and love people for who they are, not what you want to dictate them to be and do.
 
2020-07-07 3:01:36 PM  

CanisNoir: You are condescending, unempathetic, smug and unwilling to bring any type of understanding on the subject unless it is loaded with scorn.


New in town, sailor? Welcome. You get used to it.
 
2020-07-07 3:04:22 PM  

hammer85: Geotpf: Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"

Fark this argument and fark everything about considering it "logical".  Farking just respect and love people for who they are, not what you want to dictate them to be and do.


To get a larger percentage of people to accept trans people for who they are, reasonable counters to arguments like this need to be made.  Just screaming "Fark you" is not helpful.
 
2020-07-07 3:05:36 PM  

CanisNoir: So I admit, I did not major in Biology, so I pulled my answer from Live Sciences article :Chromosomes: Definition & Structurehttps://www.livescience.com/2​7248-chromosomes.htmlHow sex is determinedHumans have an additional pair of sex chromosomes for a total of 46 chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are referred to as X and Y, and their combination determines a person's sex. Typically, human females have two X chromosomes while males possess an XY pairing. This XY sex-determination system is found in most mammals as well as some reptiles and plants.Whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes is determined when a sperm fertilizes an egg. Unlike the body's other cells, the cells in the egg and sperm - called gametes or sex cells - possess only one chromosome. Gametes are produced by meiosis cell division, which results in the divided cells having half the number of chromosomes as the parent, or progenitor, cells. In the case of humans, this means that parent cells have two chromosomes and gametes have one.All of the gametes in the mother's eggs possess X chromosomes. The father's sperm contains about half X and half Y chromosomes. The sperm are the variable factor in determining the sex of the baby. If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male.


This is a very good middle school explanation.  But it's a statistical argument focusing on a general case.

Among a sizable portion of the population, there is a significant disconnect between the bits between their legs, the chromosomes they carry, and the juices flowing in their bodies.  There are many people with a penis who have XX chromosomes, or XY with a vagina.  There are some that have both.  There are some with XXY (Klinfelters and non-Klinefelters), XYY, XXXY, XXYY, XO, and other combinations as well.

Many have completely disparate sexual or genital development from their general physical appearance, looking completely one sex, but their genitals identify them as oppositely.  Then you have to add in issues like Turner's syndrome, and the wide varieties of hermaphroditism - which have about 5 variations in humans with dozens of defined subtypes with different physical consequences.  Then we move to developmental abnormalities that create different hormonal profiles that are as different from typically male and female as those are from each other.

We can then move onto non-hormonal developmental disorders that alter genitalia, gender expression, and physical development.  More of those than can be reasonably listed here.  After all of this, we can begin to talk about gender.  But even sex is far more complex than the existence of a Y chromosome in humans.
 
2020-07-07 3:21:40 PM  

trialpha: Geotpf: So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

Since trans advocates are arguing "transwomen are women", yes.

And they wonder why people have a problem with that.


This is a minor, piddling concern that isn't handled in the dozens of cases and abnormalities I cited above either.  At this point, we're talking about rights to use bathrooms and not be assumed to be a sexual predator, or to have legal rights to change your gender on state forms, or not be fired, or have rights to housing.

Sports has ALWAYS handled sex/gender poorly, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  We didn't stop the argument about whether to end Jim Crow based on whether black people had to wear reflectors at night because they're harder to see in the dark, and we didn't stop the fight for same-sex marriage because the wedding cake industry wasn't getting a tax kickback from the government to design same sex wedding toppers.

If your argument against legal protections and equality for transpersons is based on whether someone in a weightlifting competition has a penis or too much testosterone, go reexamine your basic ethics and human empathy.  You're not useful to the conversation and your opinion isn't worth evaluating.
 
2020-07-07 3:23:55 PM  

Boo_Guy: Your posts taking the sea lion out behind the woodshed so thoroughly that it freaked out on you abandoned the thread was an incredibly satisfying read, cheers!


I've been slowly learning how to chase sea lions out of threads.  Sometimes it works well, like it did here.  Sometimes it basically just ends up as duelling sea lions.

At any rate, I aim to entertain irritate.
 
2020-07-07 3:25:17 PM  

trialpha: Geotpf: So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

Since trans advocates are arguing "transwomen are women", yes.

And they wonder why people have a problem with that.


Far be it for me to underestimate the profound cultural relevance of the collegiate track and field community, but just out of idle curiosity, exactly how big of a problem do you envision this being?  I'm curious, the last cross country meet I got suckered into attending had like...six parents and three siblings in attendance, where exactly are all of these desperately concerned sports fans hiding out EVERY other single moment of the year except when this one particular argument comes up?  I mean...it's ALMOST like it's a bullshiat non-issue people are latching onto in order to advance an agenda they know is otherwise unpopular and morally bankrupt.
 
2020-07-07 3:25:57 PM  

Geotpf: hammer85: Geotpf: Mindfield of a subject, obviously, but here's one place where there's at least a logical argument: Sports.

Men and women are separated in most sports, in large part because men have distinct advantages over women in many/most sports due to muscle mass, etc.; if women and men competed against each other in such sports (assuming the same level of practice and training) men would beat women all or almost all of the time in such sports.

So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

/I'm full on devil's advocating this here
//in general, I tend to go by "people are who or what they want to be"

Fark this argument and fark everything about considering it "logical".  Farking just respect and love people for who they are, not what you want to dictate them to be and do.

To get a larger percentage of people to accept trans people for who they are, reasonable counters to arguments like this need to be made.  Just screaming "Fark you" is not helpful.


fark you.  No screaming.  Just fark you.
 
2020-07-07 3:28:34 PM  
bglove25:

So, you her publisher or what?  I'm just having trouble imagining why else someone would be this invested in pretending her opinion holds no weight.
 
2020-07-07 3:33:09 PM  

Khellendros: This is a minor, piddling concern that isn't handled in the dozens of cases and abnormalities I cited above either. At this point, we're talking about rights to use bathrooms and not be assumed to be a sexual predator, or to have legal rights to change your gender on state forms, or not be fired, or have rights to housing.


That was the easiest example, and is the direct result of advocates saying "transwomen are women".

Bathrooms - are they sex or gender based? Many would argue sex. This is probably one of the biggest sticking points, since it requires the general public to modify their behavior. Good luck with that.
Gender on state forms - most forms I've seen (though this varies), have sex, not gender. Transwomen are not female sex. This is probably an argument to include both.

I agree that being fired or evicted because of being trans should not be a thing.

Khellendros: If your argument against legal protections and equality for transpersons is based on whether someone in a weightlifting competition has a penis or too much testosterone, go reexamine your basic ethics and human empathy. You're not useful to the conversation and your opinion isn't worth evaluating.


Yeah, immediately screaming at anyone not 100% on board certainly helps the trans cause.
 
2020-07-07 3:36:04 PM  
trialpha: your opinion isn't worth evaluating.

No one is screaming at you.  The quoted definitely applies, though.
 
2020-07-07 3:38:08 PM  
*re-checks thread over lunch*

Damn, some of y'all must have thrown your backa out carrying all that water for TERFs

But *thank you, allies* for being here and fighting the good fight. Much respect and love 💜
 
2020-07-07 3:40:46 PM  

LowbrowDeluxe: trialpha: your opinion isn't worth evaluating.

No one is screaming at you. The quoted definitely applies, though.


Sure, don't be surprised when you don't succeed then.
 
2020-07-07 3:41:35 PM  

trialpha: Bathrooms - are they sex or gender based? Many would argue sex. This is probably one of the biggest sticking points, since it requires the general public to modify their behavior. Good luck with that.


See, this is where you completely trip over your own argument.  The public doesn't have to change shiat.  Stop bugging people about what goddamn bathroom they use.  I don't have to change a damn thing about my bathroom habits, regardless of whether a transperson decides to use the bathroom I'm in or not.  Leave.  Them.  The.  Fark.  Alone.  About.  It.

trialpha: Transwomen are not female sex.


Utterly irrelevant, and people like you seem to have a pathological need to make definitions based on biological distinctions you clearly don't understand to exclude people.  We don't need to have the lunch counter argument again.  We don't need "separate but equal" bathrooms based on gender, sex, genitalia, testosterone levels, Y chromosome tests, or anything else.

trialpha: Yeah, immediately screaming at anyone not 100% on board certainly helps the trans cause.


I didn't scream.  I said if people's arguments are based on stupid idea, they're not worth discussing.  Telling someone who's convinced that blacks shouldn't have the same rights until we define if they need to wear reflectors at night while jogging isn't a worthwhile discussion. And they're idiots if they're making those arguments.  Same with sporting classifications or whether bathrooms should be based on sex, gender, or some other arbitrary concept.  I don't give a fark if JK Rowling is uncomfortable with someone in the stall next to her.  If they're in there pissing, leave them alone about it.
 
2020-07-07 3:43:11 PM  

Khellendros: trialpha: Geotpf: So, should a trans woman (especially assuming no hormones, surgery, etc.) be allowed to compete against people who were born female, considering this advantage?

Since trans advocates are arguing "transwomen are women", yes.

And they wonder why people have a problem with that.

This is a minor, piddling concern that isn't handled in the dozens of cases and abnormalities I cited above either.  At this point, we're talking about rights to use bathrooms and not be assumed to be a sexual predator, or to have legal rights to change your gender on state forms, or not be fired, or have rights to housing.

Sports has ALWAYS handled sex/gender poorly, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  We didn't stop the argument about whether to end Jim Crow based on whether black people had to wear reflectors at night because they're harder to see in the dark, and we didn't stop the fight for same-sex marriage because the wedding cake industry wasn't getting a tax kickback from the government to design same sex wedding toppers.

If your argument against legal protections and equality for transpersons is based on whether someone in a weightlifting competition has a penis or too much testosterone, go reexamine your basic ethics and human empathy.  You're not useful to the conversation and your opinion isn't worth evaluating.


Yeah, I'm going to back out of this thread.  It's a minor point in the real world but one that came to my head.  I was hoping there was a simple answer I was missing.  Guess not.

/I'm pro-rights of all sorts
//should have made that much clearer
 
2020-07-07 3:47:22 PM  

Eclectic: *re-checks thread over lunch*

Damn, some of y'all must have thrown your backa out carrying all that water for TERFs

But *thank you, allies* for being here and fighting the good fight. Much respect and love 💜


I do want to say that I'm sorry that you have to experience the "third thread in three days where all the trans Farkers get to watch as their existence and validity is endlessly debated like some intellectual exercise"

For those of us who work with the law, though, it is an intellectual exercise.  The law works based on long annoying arguments around piddling details.  I have no doubt that it feels dehumanizing - I'm gay, but too young to remember (or even be alive for) most of those battles.  But, in the end, it is how things work in Western society.  I don't know how to change that.  Just how to work with it to try to produce the best possible outcome for all humans, regardless of who they are.
 
2020-07-07 3:49:31 PM  

Khellendros: See, this is where you completely trip over your own argument. The public doesn't have to change shiat. Stop bugging people about what goddamn bathroom they use. I don't have to change a damn thing about my bathroom habits, regardless of whether a transperson decides to use the bathroom I'm in or not. Leave. Them. The. Fark. Alone. About. It.


I don't either. But women do. Because they've spent their entire lives with "someone who looks like a man walking into their washroom = problem"

Khellendros: Utterly irrelevant, and people like you seem to have a pathological need to make definitions based on biological distinctions you clearly don't understand to exclude people. We don't need to have the lunch counter argument again. We don't need "separate but equal" bathrooms based on gender, sex, genitalia, testosterone levels, Y chromosome tests, or anything else.


At this point, you're effectively advocating for unisex bathrooms. I don't have a problem with that (as long as urinals are still present), but again, women do.

Khellendros: I didn't scream. I said if people's arguments are based on stupid idea, they're not worth discussing. Telling someone who's convinced that blacks shouldn't have the same rights until we define if they need to wear reflectors at night while jogging isn't a worthwhile discussion. And they're idiots if they're making those arguments. Same with sporting classifications or whether bathrooms should be based on sex, gender, or some other arbitrary concept. I don't give a fark if JK Rowling is uncomfortable with someone in the stall next to her. If they're in there pissing, leave them alone about it.


"Not worth discussing", "idiots", etc. You've just lost the support of anybody who may have been mostly on your side but needed to be convinced of the remainder. Now, instead of a possible ally, you have someone going "fark your cause"
 
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