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(The Atlantic)   When did J.K. Rowling go from being Hermione to...well, the article says Voldemort but she's really acting like Umbridge   (theatlantic.com) divider line
    More: Creepy, Harry Potter fandom, J. K. Rowling, pieces of fan fiction, books' author, major fan sites, love of Harry Potter, eighth Harry Potter book, Leaky Cauldron  
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1051 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 07 Jul 2020 at 7:42 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-07 9:46:51 AM  

CanisNoir: We do not make the rules based on the exception but rather the norm that can be quantified.


Any explanation (or rule) which does not account for all possibilities is not a scientific explanation.  Scientists doesn't ignore things which are inconvenient to their claims, they modify their claims to account for them.

Pseudo-science, on the other hand, ignores things which contradict its claims.

Science is the search for the truth, which means it doesn't get to ignore empirical reality just because reality throws a monkey-wrench into what people wants to believe.
 
2020-07-07 9:48:04 AM  

CanisNoir: Enomai: God damn, three of these in 3 days? Fark is really farming this topic right now. Has to be exhausting for trans people to keep defending this with the same posts pointed at different screen names.

As exhausting as it is for Lesbians having to defend themselves against accusations of Bigotry because they feel that not liking male sex organs is a large part of their Lesbian Identity.

Yes, it's exhausting but it's a debate that needs to be had.


If it needs to be had, I have questions as to whether an anonymous forum as snarky as this place would be the appropriate venue for it. Lesbians might not be attracted to male parts, but pansexuals probably do not have an issue with them since sex isn't the primary vector for attraction. Why then isn't it sufficient to just say that you aren't into those people? If you aren't bigoted then don't take offense when someone tries to label you as such. You have agency as much as anyone does to choose a partner for yourself. I'm a southerner who doesn't fly confederate flags and thinks racism is one of THE things holding back humanity. The mocking in the public space of the "south will rise" jackasses doesn't land with me and doesn't make me defensive.

I am curious about something you said upthread though. How do you expand upon your statement that trans has no basis is scientific reasoning or is unobservable via the scientific method? Over a broad enough sample group, this variance certainly appears and is observed on a repeated basis. This observation has occurred in cultures older than our own.
 
2020-07-07 9:48:59 AM  

CanisNoir: Do you believe Science is the search for the truth or the search to disprove the truth?


You obviously believe neither, since you hand-wave away empirical reality when it gets in the way of your arguments.
 
2020-07-07 9:51:21 AM  

punkwrestler: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

The trouble is she has so many followers on her twitter, that if her bigoted beliefs aren't countered, then that will make life worse for the transgender community.


Will it though? Are her followers (many of whom seem real pissed off) so idiotic that they'll automatically agree with everything she says? And vote that way? Assuming they vote?   Just breath deep and ignore her.
 
2020-07-07 9:53:38 AM  

tira: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

It's not me i'm worried about, it's the LITERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS who are citing her manifesto in an effort to stop "the gay agenda".

She has a platform, so like it or not she's an influencer and we HAVE to engage with her.


Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?
 
2020-07-07 9:54:17 AM  

lolmao500: JK rowling was always white UK trash?


A chav without a track suit?
 
2020-07-07 9:56:40 AM  
Why is this in the Entertainment Tab?
It's not entertaining at all.
 
2020-07-07 9:59:36 AM  

bglove25: punkwrestler: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

The trouble is she has so many followers on her twitter, that if her bigoted beliefs aren't countered, then that will make life worse for the transgender community.

Will it though? Are her followers (many of whom seem real pissed off) so idiotic that they'll automatically agree with everything she says? And vote that way? Assuming they vote?   Just breath deep and ignore her.


Yes some are, unfortunately. In the UK it's getting really bad for transgender people because these pseudoscience crackpots are given the same weight of real scientist it their pitiful "newspapers".

We have already been through the let it pass once with Anita Bryant and she cost us many years of progress on gay rights. JK Rowling is set to do the same on transgender rights and she uses her money to push her agenda.
 
2020-07-07 10:00:53 AM  

CanisNoir: This confuses me, "Gender is a social construct that is separate from Sex" has no basis in scientific reasoning and cannot be proven through the Scientific Method. It's just a philosophical thought experiment at this point.


That is true.  But the contrary claim can be disproved, and has been.

We see, throughout the world, that different cultures define genders differently, and often independently of biological sex.  Therefore the claim that "gender" must be connected to biological sex is false.
 
2020-07-07 10:02:30 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Any explanation (or rule) which does not account for all possibilities is not a scientific explanation. Scientists doesn't ignore things which are inconvenient to their claims, they modify their claims to account for them.


Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes? To be honest you may have to clarify your point here though, I might be misunderstanding your statement.

Science is the search for the truth, which means it doesn't get to ignore empirical reality just because reality throws a monkey-wrench into what people wants to believe.

So you do believe in an "Objective Reality" and that Science is the search for that, good.

What purpose do Social Constructs have in relation to that objective reality? Do they define it or would you say they are more of a descriptor?
 
2020-07-07 10:03:52 AM  

bglove25: tira: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

It's not me i'm worried about, it's the LITERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS who are citing her manifesto in an effort to stop "the gay agenda".

She has a platform, so like it or not she's an influencer and we HAVE to engage with her.

Which socially regressive Congresspersons are citing a children's author on serious social policy? And do you honestly think they'll actually pass legislation that won't get immediately struck down by the courts?


You mean like the recent President Orders that allow healthcare workers to discriminate against transgender people, prohibit Transgender people from the military and his administration telling schools they no longer have to protect transgender students.

They may not list her as their inspiration, but her words are giving cover to Trump and also helping to increase violence against the transgender community since she is dehumanizing them.
 
2020-07-07 10:05:50 AM  

CanisNoir: So I will ask again - do you believe that Reality is just a hierarchy of social constructs existing within a power dynamic or do you believe that there is an Objective Reality?.


These are not mutually exclusive. For example:

The Pauli exclusion principle is objective reality - it exists whether we want to believe in it or not.

Race (as in a biological concept) is a social construct.  It has no value in science for a variety of reasons (one being that multiple distinct genotypes can map to the same phenotype when it comes to race), and is not useful as an objective description of anything.
 
2020-07-07 10:09:43 AM  

Trik: meanmutton: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.

FTFY.

What makes you believe that your opinion is any more valid than hers?


Because she is discounting a whole swath of people, because of her bigotry. Bigots basically have to be taken to task when they tear their ugly heads.
 
2020-07-07 10:11:11 AM  

CanisNoir: Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes? To be honest you may have to clarify your point here though, I might be misunderstanding your statement.


The point is there is far more at play than just "male" and "female" here.  We are talking about the entire genome of a person, plus all their interactions with the environment both in the womb and after birth.

However, I don't think you are informed enough on these issues to understand this.  So, I may need to start out with the basics.

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.
 
2020-07-07 10:13:08 AM  

Trik: meanmutton: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions. call you out when you say stupid  shiat.

FTFY.

What makes you believe that your opinion is any more valid than hers?


When one is based on foundations of scientific and medical consensus, and the other presses an exclusionary perspective that boils down to "I'm ok with them, I just want them to be out of my space and using other bathrooms", then yeah, there's a difference in validity.

All opinions are not equal.  For example, if someone says "Nazis had a good ideology, they just went about it incorrectly" and another states "diversity and multiculturalism is a more beneficial ideology in the free world", the latter is a more valid opinion, based both on their consequence and the data that supports it.
 
2020-07-07 10:15:09 AM  

Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.


Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification
 
2020-07-07 10:16:46 AM  

Enomai: CanisNoir: Enomai: God damn, three of these in 3 days? Fark is really farming this topic right now. Has to be exhausting for trans people to keep defending this with the same posts pointed at different screen names.

As exhausting as it is for Lesbians having to defend themselves against accusations of Bigotry because they feel that not liking male sex organs is a large part of their Lesbian Identity.

Yes, it's exhausting but it's a debate that needs to be had.

If it needs to be had, I have questions as to whether an anonymous forum as snarky as this place would be the appropriate venue for it. Lesbians might not be attracted to male parts, but pansexuals probably do not have an issue with them since sex isn't the primary vector for attraction. Why then isn't it sufficient to just say that you aren't into those people? If you aren't bigoted then don't take offense when someone tries to label you as such. You have agency as much as anyone does to choose a partner for yourself. I'm a southerner who doesn't fly confederate flags and thinks racism is one of THE things holding back humanity. The mocking in the public space of the "south will rise" jackasses doesn't land with me and doesn't make me defensive.


Well first, I stated up front that the Trans community was suffering and that needs attention, I also stipulated that Social Constructs were real and that any one persons identity was valid. I do not see any attempts at mockery in that - there tacit recognition of each individuals "Truth" as being valid.

As to why a public forum? Because it's a public debate, and sadly the venues with which to have it in are very limited. I try to keep my points to the broader philosophical debate as I see it and hope I get some intelligent people from the other side to challenge me and I try and ignore the chaff - occasionally piping in, admittedly.

I think I am right but am no way claiming I absolutely am right - this is why I hope for intelligent challenge.

Regarding Lesbians, it's because they are being de-platformed, de-monetized and having their reputations ruined because they are being labeled as bigots. If it was as simple as just being able to say "no thanks, not my thing" then there would be no need for this. I am a firm believer in words only having the power I infuse them with as the receiver so just being called a "bigot" is no big deal, but when my ability to make a living is at stake, then it becomes a big deal.

In the end, the reason this is a needed and public debate is because we are being asked to legislate the entirety of society based upon a small minorities "Subjective Truth" that cannot be quantified and has no limiting factor. I think having a serious philosophical debate around the ramifications that might have on society at large is one we need to have if that's the direction we're going to go.

I am curious about something you said upthread though. How do you expand upon your statement that trans has no basis is scientific reasoning or is unobservable via the scientific method? Over a broad enough sample group, this variance certainly appears and is observed on a repeated basis. This observation has occurred in cultures older than our own.

Well to correct, I did not say Trans had no basis in scientific fact, I stated that "Gender is a social construct and is separate from Biological Sex" has no basis in scientific fact. As far as I can see, there is no way to quantify whether or not a Social Construct defines reality, yet there is a way to quantify it describing reality.

i.e. The sun did not actually revolve around the earth prior to the Copernican model even though an Earth Centric Universe was the Social Construct that described the Truth of the Universe as we knew it. The Earth always revolved around the sun. (that's my claim - I guess some could argue that they believe it actually did revolve around the earthy but...)
 
2020-07-07 10:16:50 AM  

CanisNoir: Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes?


You're begging the question.  What you've asked requires there to be only two sexes, and precludes other (demonstrably existing) options.
 
2020-07-07 10:25:05 AM  
Sudden spate of brand new NounNumber accounts.  How...expected.
 
2020-07-07 10:27:53 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.


Do you have a point aside from demonstrating pride in your obtuseness?  Do you think that because children don't do deeper literary criticism of their works that they're immune to the deeper meanings?  Do you consider the teenagers that the books are actually targeted at to be children that don't analyze their books at all?  Do you have *anything* useful to say?
 
2020-07-07 10:31:40 AM  

Fano: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification


Didn't read the books but don't recall dater rape in the movies.
With the memory modification iirc it was kill them or make them forget type thing.
 
2020-07-07 10:34:24 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.


No, it's far more dangerous.  They don't come to conclusions based on analysis, they carry the constructed tropes and apply them to their lives without analysis.  It becomes "normal" to do so.  The YouTube project "Lessons Animation Taught Me" goes into great detail on how movies and media from your early life shape your mind in exceptionally broad ways.  The repeated messages we take away from books, movies, television shows, etc. when we're children is staggeringly powerful.
 
2020-07-07 10:37:57 AM  
Not sure if CanisNoir is ever coming back.  But I will provide a hint:

It isn't actually the pretense or absence of the Y chromosome that determines whether you get a male human or a female one.  It is far more subtle and complicated than that.  But most Farkers who like to blather about gender being related to sex never learned biology past high school (if even then), so they don't have any clue how things like this actually work.
 
2020-07-07 10:39:36 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: So I will ask again - do you believe that Reality is just a hierarchy of social constructs existing within a power dynamic or do you believe that there is an Objective Reality?.

These are not mutually exclusive. For example:

The Pauli exclusion principle is objective reality - it exists whether we want to believe in it or not.

Race (as in a biological concept) is a social construct.  It has no value in science for a variety of reasons (one being that multiple distinct genotypes can map to the same phenotype when it comes to race), and is not useful as an objective description of anything.


Quantum entanglement is real whether we believe it or not also, which is why we relegate that to Theoretical Physics. There is no doubt that on the quantum level the standard rules of reality tend to fall apart - which is why we use what can be quantified as the basis to judge reality.

If Race as a social construct is not an descriptor of any objective thing, then what purpose would you say the social construct has and how do we refer to the distinct genotypes in general society?

The point is there is far more at play than just "male" and "female" here.  We are talking about the entire genome of a person, plus all their interactions with the environment both in the womb and after birth.
However, I don't think you are informed enough on these issues to understand this.  So, I may need to start out with the basics.
First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.


It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.
 
2020-07-07 10:40:54 AM  
CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.


False.  Try again.
 
2020-07-07 10:42:33 AM  

Khellendros: CanisNoir: Okay, so in what quantifiable way has biology deviating from "Male" and "Female" being the two sexes?

You're begging the question.  What you've asked requires there to be only two sexes, and precludes other (demonstrably existing) options.


Fair point, it's early I should have worded it differently and asked in what way quantifiable way has biology deviated from sex being male and female.

Thanks for the correction.
 
2020-07-07 10:42:43 AM  

CanisNoir: If Race as a social construct is not an descriptor of any objective thing, then what purpose would you say the social construct has and how do we refer to the distinct genotypes in general society?


We don't refer to the distinct genotypes in society.  That's the point.  The concept of race is based on human perception, but not on the reality of the situation.
 
2020-07-07 10:44:03 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.


Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.
 
2020-07-07 10:45:12 AM  

CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.


Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?
 
2020-07-07 10:45:19 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: We don't refer to the distinct genotypes in society. That's the point. The concept of race is based on human perception, but not on the reality of the situation.


Then what is the purpose of the social construct?
 
2020-07-07 10:46:40 AM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir:

First question: what determines if a human zygote develops into a male or a female?  I highly doubt you'll even get this question correct.

It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Continue.

False.  Try again.

Don't play games - how is it false? You are making the claim and I made a good faith attempt at answering, now either explain yourself or sit there and call me stupid. The later would make you a horrible spokesperson for your side of this debate so I'm hoping for the former otherwise we're done here.


I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith.  My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.
 
2020-07-07 10:47:16 AM  

AdrienVeidt: HotWingConspiracy: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.

Do you have a point aside from demonstrating pride in your obtuseness?  Do you think that because children don't do deeper literary criticism of their works that they're immune to the deeper meanings?  Do you consider the teenagers that the books are actually targeted at to be children that don't analyze their books at all?  Do you have *anything* useful to say?


Hey I get it, I've seen grown men reduced to a frothing rage when it's pointed out to them that they don't like the new Star Wars movies because they're made for children.

You wish to apply serious analysis to a fairy tale and it's become very frustrating for you to the point that you lash out at strangers for pointing it out.
 
2020-07-07 10:47:54 AM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: We don't refer to the distinct genotypes in society. That's the point. The concept of race is based on human perception, but not on the reality of the situation.

Then what is the purpose of the social construct?


Why does it need to have a purpose?

Again, you are begging the question.  You need to demonstrate that social constructs need to have purposes before demanding that I tell you this particular construct's purpose.
 
2020-07-07 10:48:51 AM  

Trik: Fano: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification

Didn't read the books but don't recall dater rape in the movies.
With the memory modification iirc it was kill them or make them forget type thing.


Well, Voldemort's father was drugged by his mother for several months to keep him unable to avoid impregnating her. When the potion wore off he ran away immediately. This is seen as a flaw IN HIM.
Ron ends up getting hit with a spiked sweet that makes him madly in love with some random girl. This is played for laughs. It comes up multiple times in the books about making love charms.
No one seems particularly horrified and this isn't just a 90s thing, in Fantastic Breasts and where to find them a muggle is basically charmed for years on end to stay in love with a character.
 
2020-07-07 10:50:18 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?


So I admit, I did not major in Biology, so I pulled my answer from Live Sciences article :Chromosomes: Definition & Structure

https://www.livescience.com/27248-chr​o​mosomes.html

How sex is determined
Humans have an additional pair of sex chromosomes for a total of 46 chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are referred to as X and Y, and their combination determines a person's sex. Typically, human females have two X chromosomes while males possess an XY pairing. This XY sex-determination system is found in most mammals as well as some reptiles and plants.
Whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes is determined when a sperm fertilizes an egg. Unlike the body's other cells, the cells in the egg and sperm - called gametes or sex cells - possess only one chromosome. Gametes are produced by meiosis cell division, which results in the divided cells having half the number of chromosomes as the parent, or progenitor, cells. In the case of humans, this means that parent cells have two chromosomes and gametes have one.
All of the gametes in the mother's eggs possess X chromosomes. The father's sperm contains about half X and half Y chromosomes. The sperm are the variable factor in determining the sex of the baby. If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male.



Please expand on that answer since it appears you have more knowledge on the subject than I.
 
2020-07-07 10:52:29 AM  

Khellendros: HotWingConspiracy: They were books written for children. Children do not analyze story books on this level, because they're children.

No, it's far more dangerous.  They don't come to conclusions based on analysis, they carry the constructed tropes and apply them to their lives without analysis.  It becomes "normal" to do so.  The YouTube project "Lessons Animation Taught Me" goes into great detail on how movies and media from your early life shape your mind in exceptionally broad ways.  The repeated messages we take away from books, movies, television shows, etc. when we're children is staggeringly powerful.


Think of how romantic heroes were portrayed in 80s movies. Practically all of them were stalkers, harassers, committing rape by deception, drugs, threats etc. AND THESE ARE ROLE MODELS! Lloyd Dobler, sensitive guy or total creep?
No wonder guys wouldn't take no for an answer, it was literally what we were taught to do. In that respect Incels are basically dudes discovering that that horrible formula doesn't work and can't cope with it.
 
2020-07-07 10:52:51 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith. My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.


So you're not actually interested in people understanding so long as you can sit on the side lines in self assumed smugness shutting down any honest attempt at getting to the deeper issue and trying to come to an understanding

Bravo you are an arsehole and part of the problem.
 
2020-07-07 10:53:42 AM  

Trik: Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.

Oh and that they have the right to punish you until you comply.


Yeah...right....thank god that the ones silencing gays , science, education, the disenfranchised, dissent, and engaging in real suppression are all republicans. Now go away troll.
 
2020-07-07 10:55:16 AM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: CanisNoir: It depends upon the chromosome carried in the Sperm cell.

Many XX individuals in this world were born as full biological males.  And many XY individuals in this world were born as full biological females.

So it can't be as simple as just the chromosome, now can it?

So I admit, I did not major in Biology, so I pulled my answer from Live Sciences article :Chromosomes: Definition & Structure

https://www.livescience.com/27248-chro​mosomes.html

How sex is determined
Humans have an additional pair of sex chromosomes for a total of 46 chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are referred to as X and Y, and their combination determines a person's sex. Typically, human females have two X chromosomes while males possess an XY pairing. This XY sex-determination system is found in most mammals as well as some reptiles and plants.
Whether a person has XX or XY chromosomes is determined when a sperm fertilizes an egg. Unlike the body's other cells, the cells in the egg and sperm - called gametes or sex cells - possess only one chromosome. Gametes are produced by meiosis cell division, which results in the divided cells having half the number of chromosomes as the parent, or progenitor, cells. In the case of humans, this means that parent cells have two chromosomes and gametes have one.
All of the gametes in the mother's eggs possess X chromosomes. The father's sperm contains about half X and half Y chromosomes. The sperm are the variable factor in determining the sex of the baby. If the sperm carries an X chromosome, it will combine with the egg's X chromosome to form a female zygote. If the sperm carries a Y chromosome, it will result in a male.


Please expand on that answer since it appears you have more knowledge on the subject than I.


The only thing that matters is whether the adrenal glands start pumping out testosterone in the right quantity at the right time.

This is controlled by a region called SRY which is normally found on the Y chromosome.  However
- that region can be damaged, rendering it a pseudo-gene
- that region can be transposed to the X chromosome during meiosis
- other hormones that affect sex development (like cortisol) might not be produced in sufficient quantities to keep the testosterone working as it should
- etc. etc. etc.  Textbooks exist simply covering all the ways that sex selection can go sideways.

So, since you now admit you are completely ignorant on this topic, why do you think anyone should take your opinion on it seriously?
 
2020-07-07 10:56:25 AM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: I see no reason to argue in good faith here, since you aren't arguing in good faith. My point here is simply to demonstrate to the thread that you have no idea what you are talking about, so they know that they can ignore your ill-informed "opinions" on this topic.

So you're not actually interested in people understanding so long as you can sit on the side lines in self assumed smugness shutting down any honest attempt at getting to the deeper issue and trying to come to an understanding

Bravo you are an arsehole and part of the problem.


Nope.

My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.
 
2020-07-07 11:02:51 AM  

bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.


That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.
 
2020-07-07 11:05:24 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: Nope.My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.


No, you're point is to simply be an arsehole because you can't fathom that people are having their families torn apart and friends devastated by this and they just might want to try and understand the other side so the suffering can stop.

You have proven to be an arsehole and not interested in honest debate with the goal of common understanding. You're wasting my time and I am done with you.
 
2020-07-07 11:09:23 AM  

CanisNoir: Armored Vomit Doll: Nope.My point is to make it clear to this thread that your opinion is worthless because you have no idea what you are talking about.I will eventually go into the full details, but not until everyone here knows that you aren't worth listening to on this matter.

No, you're point is to simply be an arsehole because you can't fathom that people are having their families torn apart and friends devastated by this and they just might want to try and understand the other side so the suffering can stop.

You have proven to be an arsehole and not interested in honest debate with the goal of common understanding. You're wasting my time and I am done with you.


Says the guy who came into this thread spewing easily-disprovable horseshiat about gender and sex.  Here's a hint, if you want an "honest" debate, don't start out by spewing obvious falsehoods.

We never even got to question two before you bailed.  Sad.
 
2020-07-07 11:12:35 AM  

Armored Vomit Doll: - etc. etc. etc. Textbooks exist simply covering all the ways that sex selection can go sideways.


This is the point a lot of people never seem to understand when arguing about sex and human biology. Biology is squishy and unpredictable. People try to draw these bright lines from genes to sex to gender to gender roles, but anyone who has studied biology to any serious extent should know that these lines aren't crisp. There are plenty of exceptions due to the fact that our biology is incredibly complex and influenced by innumerable factors that we still don't fully understand.
 
2020-07-07 11:21:02 AM  

havocmike: Famous authors were always puds, but social media wasn't there for Mark Twain to let us know his feelings on whatever the hot topics of 1888 were.


And believe me, he's tell them.

And tell them. And tell them.
 
2020-07-07 11:27:36 AM  

Fano: Invisible Obama: While the HP books were fun, they DID have some rather fascist overtones to them in retrospect.

Think of the analogy for slavery and race relations with house elves, or how Hagrid was treated because of his half-giant ancestry.

Think about how apparently they have absolutely no problem with outright torture in their prisons, given what Azkaban is like, not to mention the I found whole thing with the dementors kiss to be profoundly disturbing when I was reading them. . .literally destroying people's souls with only the most prefunctory of judicial process.

Think about the level of dystopian surveillance needed to make their laws about wizardry work.

Then the level of secrecy required.  If you just happen, as a child, to have magical talent. . .suddenly you have to keep it from the world, and can't use it except when and where you're allowed, and have to go to a boarding school for years to get that permission.

The more you peel back the layers, there's a lot of right-wing fantasies about power, control, and racial identity in HP.

It's glossed over because you see it from the POV of a young boy who is gifted, popular, inherits a small fortune, and finds the whole scenario to be an escape from an abusive home life. . .but for many (or most) other students there it would be far less ideal.

JK being a TERF isn't THAT much of a surprise when you step back and look at it.

Don't forget the humorous use of date rape drugs and memory modification


The entire magical community was one generation removed from genocide and most of the kids had no idea it happened, what the signs were, who was involved, etc. If you step back and analyze the Ministry of Magic, they were terrible at their jobs, protecting the magical community from future abuses.
 
2020-07-07 11:30:59 AM  

shut_it_down: Armored Vomit Doll: - etc. etc. etc. Textbooks exist simply covering all the ways that sex selection can go sideways.

This is the point a lot of people never seem to understand when arguing about sex and human biology. Biology is squishy and unpredictable. People try to draw these bright lines from genes to sex to gender to gender roles, but anyone who has studied biology to any serious extent should know that these lines aren't crisp. There are plenty of exceptions due to the fact that our biology is incredibly complex and influenced by innumerable factors that we still don't fully understand.


My main work with genetics and reproduction was with poultry which, as birds, have a totally different sex-selection mechanism (no X and Y chromosomes; the base template is male, not female; the ovum generally determines the sex not the sperm).  If you want to see weird, start comparing the XY paradigm with the ZW paradigm and things get beyond bizarre.

And your second point is where I was heading next, and might still, as this thread is going to be open for a long while.  Beyond just SRY, there are many other alleles of genes in a person's genome that might affect both their biological sex and their eventual gender.

And, after that, who we aren't isn't only determined by our genome, but our environment, of course.

Anyone who thinks that something as complex as sex and gender can be boiled down to the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is not worth paying attention to - they aren't worth even true debate since they aren't even knowledgeable enough on the issues to keep up in a debate on them.
 
2020-07-07 11:34:43 AM  

PickleBarrel: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

That does not solve the problem because what she says harms others.


Speech is not violence. Sorry. Heck, she never even threatens violence.
 
2020-07-07 11:35:17 AM  

Trik: bglove25: If you don't like what JK Rowling says or thinks, don't listen to her. Problem solved.

Liberals believe they have the right to control your thoughts and opinions.


I am a liberal.
And I've recently learned - that you are correct.
 
2020-07-07 11:50:04 AM  

karl2025: Jake Havechek: Why doesn't she just shut the hell up?

Because she's a TERF. Her particular anti-transgender mindset is rooted in feminism, she (incorrectly) believes trans women should be excluded in order to protect women both physically and socially, that including trans women as women undermines "real" women. So when you tell her to stop talking, she's not hearing that as legitimate criticism of her bigotry, she's hearing that as you being anti-feminist. So she keeps talking because she is trying to be a good person and defend women, she's just doing it in an incredibly hurtful and disrespectful way.


Thank you.

Finally, a logical explanation on why she just can't put the shovel down on this subject.
 
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