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(Salon)   Children need to be educated about racism   (salon.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Racism, Race, white mom, Black girl, Brown twins, white children, Racial segregation, White supremacy  
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231 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 06 Jul 2020 at 9:19 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-06 4:53:30 AM  
Which DeVoss and her fellow travelers are trying to do, but you Libs just keep interrupting the process. How do you expect these poor teachers to get kids heads in the "right" place if you keep filling them full of this hippy crap? Sheesh...
 
Xai [TotalFark]
2020-07-06 6:37:15 AM  
Parents can't be relied upon to teach their kids accurately or consistently about racism.

Unfortunately everyone experiences a bias - we live in nations of millions of people yet in our entire lifetimes we only ever meet maybe 80,000 people - we can't possibly be expected to form a full picture from experience of what any other race is like in reality, so we take the small experiences we have and extend them out to cover all people we designate as similar. i.e. assume all black people have traits linked to the interactions we already know of.

Obviously that isn't right, since we're all individuals, not some hive-mind collective and kids need to understand that it's normal and natural to form biases, but that you can't just act on those animal instincts.
 
2020-07-06 6:42:22 AM  
CHILDREN NEED TO BE TAUGHT TO BE ANTI-RACIST.
 
2020-07-06 8:40:46 AM  
I remember learning about it in 60s grade school. That must be that "hate America" syllabus Trump was talking about.
 
2020-07-06 9:32:17 AM  
That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.
 
2020-07-06 9:41:30 AM  

DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.


Sesame Street skipped all that shiat just fine, and that's the sort of thing the article is talking about.
 
2020-07-06 9:48:37 AM  
actually, i'd say they need to educated about equality and inclusivity...

tl;dr
 
2020-07-06 9:50:09 AM  

DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.


Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.
 
2020-07-06 9:53:04 AM  
Speaking as a 90s kid, I feel like half our problem is that, IMHO, we were taught consciously or not, that the Civil Rights Movement cured institutional racism in the 1960s, which is of course ancient history to a child.
 
2020-07-06 10:16:17 AM  
You've Got to Be Carefully Taught
From South Pacific, 1949

[Verse 1]
You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

[Verse 2]
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade
You've got to be carefully taught

[Verse 3]
You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught

/know there was some sort of "South Pacific" thing in my elementary school
//I was in first grade, so all I really remember was "Happy Talk"
///but I'm pretty sure this wasn't included in my white flight (plus incoming Asians) suburb
 
2020-07-06 10:26:42 AM  
Most of the innate, natural behavior has to be educated and trained out of people if they are going to live as civilized human beings.
Man, in his natural state, is a predatory, tribal, xenophobic, killer ape.
Racism is only one aspect of this truth.
 
2020-07-06 10:42:19 AM  

12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.


No I don't. I wholeheartedly disagree with the very notion that when a black person assaults a white person just because he is white, that it isn't racism.
 
2020-07-06 10:42:59 AM  
Based on the amount of racial epithets coming of their mouths, I learned plenty about racism from my parents and other family members.  I had to re-educate myself when I was in my late teens/early adulthood.
 
2020-07-06 10:49:07 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sesame Street skipped all that shiat just fine, and that's the sort of thing the article is talking about.


The article wasn't just about what Sesame Street did. It was also about what people feel that needs to happen. As an example the article also said this:

"Officer Tou Thao was complicit in the killing of George Floyd. Officer Peter Liang shot and killed Akai Gurley. We cannot raise another generation of Asian Americans, second- and third- and fourth-generation immigrants, to uphold and support white supremacy, to literally stand by while Black Americans are murdered."

As if it is the fault of "white supremacy" when a person Asian descent's actions disadvantage a black person. I'm very sure they have agency as well. Maybe Tou Thao had his own reasons to not do anything about the event rather than "Oh no, it wasn't my fault. The white man made me do it. As we know Befehl ist Befehl".
 
2020-07-06 10:51:57 AM  
I am so sick of hearing about racism.  All it does is divide people.  If you dont want racism, dont talk about race.  It just divides people.  If I see someone with a "black lives matter" tshirt I just go the other direction.  I dont need that drama.  If I look at that person the wrong way Ill be called a racist, a "ken" or whatever the trendy term is.
 
2020-07-06 10:52:58 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-06 10:55:45 AM  

goshes: I am so sick of hearing about racism.  All it does is divide people.  If you dont want racism, dont talk about race.  It just divides people.  If I see someone with a "black lives matter" tshirt I just go the other direction.  I dont need that drama.  If I look at that person the wrong way Ill be called a racist, a "ken" or whatever the trendy term is.


Yeah, just ignoring a problem will always make it go away!
 
2020-07-06 11:41:28 AM  

DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.

No I don't. I wholeheartedly disagree with the very notion that when a black person assaults a white person just because he is white, that it isn't racism.


You can call it what you want, but it's very different from political suppression through things like the war on drugs and redlining.
 
2020-07-06 12:01:21 PM  

12349876: DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.

No I don't. I wholeheartedly disagree with the very notion that when a black person assaults a white person just because he is white, that it isn't racism.

You can call it what you want, but it's very different from political suppression through things like the war on drugs and redlining.


I never said it was the same.
 
2020-07-06 12:04:44 PM  

DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.

No I don't. I wholeheartedly disagree with the very notion that when a black person assaults a white person just because he is white, that it isn't racism.

You can call it what you want, but it's very different from political suppression through things like the war on drugs and redlining.

I never said it was the same.


When people say the things you said in your original post, they're talking about the political stuff, not angry bar fights with slurs.
 
2020-07-06 12:40:12 PM  

Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: CHILDREN NEED TO BE TAUGHT TO BE ANTI-RACIST.


I'm having some fun imagining teaching five year olds that all white people are oppressive tyrants and the black kids that whites are out to get them:p.

Over exaggeration aside, I agree with the sentiment but I wonder what age we should start teaching them and how we should do it.

Seems like a phased approach would be best - as in help kids figure it out in a way that they can resist being racist themselves without giving them a framework to band together and oppress others.
 
2020-07-06 12:40:51 PM  

hubiestubert: Which DeVoss and her fellow travelers are trying to do, but you Libs just keep interrupting the process. How do you expect these poor teachers to get kids heads in the "right" place if you keep filling them full of this hippy crap? Sheesh...


I honestly can't tell if you're joking or if you're that abysmally, hopelessly f*cking stupid.
 
2020-07-06 12:43:22 PM  

12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.


The question are which are more harmful?  And can one be addressed with out addressing both?
 
2020-07-06 12:47:13 PM  

goshes: I am so sick of hearing about racism.  All it does is divide people.  If you dont want racism, dont talk about race.  It just divides people.  If I see someone with a "black lives matter" tshirt I just go the other direction.  I dont need that drama. If I look at that person the wrong way Ill be called a racist, a "ken" or whatever the trendy term is.


That says all we need to know about you. I'm sure you have some very strong opinions about confederate statues as well.
 
2020-07-06 12:47:14 PM  

DecemberNitro: hubiestubert: Which DeVoss and her fellow travelers are trying to do, but you Libs just keep interrupting the process. How do you expect these poor teachers to get kids heads in the "right" place if you keep filling them full of this hippy crap? Sheesh...

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or if you're that abysmally, hopelessly f*cking stupid.


He is joking:p. He doesn't usually lay it on that thick, good job hubie:p
 
2020-07-06 12:48:43 PM  

12349876: DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: 12349876: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sounds like you need a lesson on the difference between personal prejudice and systemic racism.

No I don't. I wholeheartedly disagree with the very notion that when a black person assaults a white person just because he is white, that it isn't racism.

You can call it what you want, but it's very different from political suppression through things like the war on drugs and redlining.

I never said it was the same.

When people say the things you said in your original post, they're talking about the political stuff, not angry bar fights with slurs.


Next time just ask which one is meant rather than going on a tangent about what you think someone means.
 
2020-07-06 12:54:49 PM  

DecemberNitro: goshes: I am so sick of hearing about racism.  All it does is divide people.  If you dont want racism, dont talk about race.  It just divides people.  If I see someone with a "black lives matter" tshirt I just go the other direction.  I dont need that drama. If I look at that person the wrong way Ill be called a racist, a "ken" or whatever the trendy term is.

That says all we need to know about you. I'm sure you have some very strong opinions about confederate statues as well.


I think the anti racism movement does have a bit of a pr problem, tbh.  Part of the reason some conservatives have a problem with advancing the condition of another's life is they see it all as a zero sum game, couple that with the idea that white privilege means (Among whites trying to straw man the argument) whites are handed everything without struggle and they can easily imagine that they're being asked to give up stuff, even if they don't know what that stuff is right now.
 
2020-07-06 1:17:25 PM  
Just real racism please, not the BS the left keeps pushing.
 
2020-07-06 2:37:28 PM  

joker420: Just real racism please, not the BS the left keeps pushing.


What BS is this. I can't wait to "Christ what an asshole" at your examples.
 
2020-07-06 2:59:23 PM  
Blacks and Whites are going to have disagreements and fights, most are just life and not racism, but according to the left, is all racism. SMH.
 
2020-07-06 3:50:33 PM  

joker420: Blacks and Whites are going to have disagreements and fights, most are just life and not racism, but according to the left, is all racism. SMH.


that is a (probably unintentionally) dishonest characterization of the problem.

The argument is that the disparity in poverty rates between blacks and whites are results of policies that existed until recently such as redlining (not allowing bank loans in black neighborhoods artificially depressing home values compared to white neighborhoods), Jim Crow Laws plus prisoner work programs leading to increased incarceration of black males, programs like Iran Contra funneling drugs into black communities to fund proxy wars in south america etc.

The theory is the poverty rates are also driven by current conditions like as separate and unequal education, food deserts and decreased access to health services

With the above mentioned factors and the resulting poverty you see increases in crime and lower education outcomes (compounded by bad schools, food deserts and bad healthcare) which serve to reinforce themselves (as educational outcomes get worse crime gets worse and drags the other stuff down even further)

So the question is: are these outcomes (crime and poor education) a feature of the black race or a feature of a larger percentage of blacks living in poverty, and we have the answer: in wealthier black communities, they have similar outcomes to white people.

Meaning, there is something structural in America disadvantaging black people driving the poverty, the crime and the poor educational and health outcomes.

It's no more your fault than mine, of course, but you shouldn't support the false notion that there's nothing wrong with the structure of the US, either.

Poverty needs to be eradicated and seeing as there are a higher proportion of black people in poverty than white people, per capita black people are going to benefit more.

Typically, when people talk about racism they mean structural racism and no American is free of that sin, no matter what color they are, however, whites aren't victimized by the system nearly as much, so we come out as net winners, even if we are also suffering from other issues, like job exportation, living and educational cost increases driving the explosion of debt.

So since blacks have an inferior lot (admittedly mostly due to past policies), the system still must be described as racist.

Now, if you want to talk about people on an individual level treating each other poorly, that has been re-termed as just prejudice.

I think that's a pretty shiat-distinction because it minimizes the feelings of whites who are attacked on the basis of their race.

And people standing by can say," grow up buttercup," as much as they want, but we still need a lot of white people to buy in to eliminating racism for it to gain the traction it needs to be a successful effort.

anyways, sorry if that post is scattered, i just woke up from a nap and I'm not doing a good job of gaining any traction.
 
2020-07-06 4:21:38 PM  

DecemberNitro: hubiestubert: Which DeVoss and her fellow travelers are trying to do, but you Libs just keep interrupting the process. How do you expect these poor teachers to get kids heads in the "right" place if you keep filling them full of this hippy crap? Sheesh...

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or if you're that abysmally, hopelessly f*cking stupid.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-06 4:31:33 PM  
This would be a much more fun, and long, thread in either the Politics or Main tabs.
 
2020-07-06 5:04:09 PM  
I, for one, don't think that the road to a postracial society begins with obsessing over race from a young age.

I sure as fark have no intention of telling my kids that any of their friends are somehow "different" just because of skin tone or ancestry.
 
2020-07-06 5:19:43 PM  

Uranus: actually, i'd say they need to educated about equality and inclusivity...

tl;dr


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-06 6:00:18 PM  

Enigmamf: Uranus: actually, i'd say they need to educated about equality and inclusivity...

tl;dr

[Fark user image image 850x572]


How far should we go to guarantee equity?

Do we need to force women into physics classes to guarantee a 50/50 split? Hell, along which lines are we even going to group society? Do we need, as an extreme example, a "fair" number of homosexual gender fluid lower middle class Inuit with a physical handicap in upper management? Or do we just throw everyone who isn't white on a big pile and call it "diverse"?

If someone decides to stop doing any kind of effort at school at age 16, should his/her outcome still be the same as the person who studies seriously and graduates from college?

What are we going to do about the trend that the more options a person in a society has, the more men and women split their careers along "gender stereotypes" (see for example Sweden)?

/"Equity" sounds nice, but it is not implementable
 
2020-07-06 6:16:06 PM  
"You've Got To Be Carefully Taught" - SOUTH PACIFIC (1958)
Youtube VPf6ITsjsgk
 
2020-07-06 8:06:27 PM  

DerAppie: "Equity" sounds nice, but it is not implementable


Nothing you described has anything to do with equity. Equity is not about forcing people to do things they don't want to do, it's about coming to terms with the massive amount of assistance most successful people receive (despite many of their claims of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps) and providing comparable help to those who aren't getting it.

If you have no baseline understanding of the reasons why a person might drop out of school at 16, it's going to just look like laziness to you. It's also going to be difficult for anyone to discuss potential solutions with you until you choose to inform yourself.
 
2020-07-06 10:09:38 PM  

jso2897: Most of the innate, natural behavior has to be educated and trained out of people if they are going to live as civilized human beings.
Man, in his natural state, is a predatory, tribal, xenophobic, killer ape.
Racism is only one aspect of this truth.


Not so. Indigenous people the world over knew love and peace until the devil Europeans came and wrecked everything with their scientific racism and bourgeois values.
 
2020-07-06 10:13:27 PM  

DerAppie: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: DerAppie: That depends on the definition of racism you're teaching them about. Just skip the "all white people are racist", "minorities can't be racist", the whole "Original Sin" of racism and all associated bullshiat.

Sesame Street skipped all that shiat just fine, and that's the sort of thing the article is talking about.

The article wasn't just about what Sesame Street did. It was also about what people feel that needs to happen. As an example the article also said this:

"Officer Tou Thao was complicit in the killing of George Floyd. Officer Peter Liang shot and killed Akai Gurley. We cannot raise another generation of Asian Americans, second- and third- and fourth-generation immigrants, to uphold and support white supremacy, to literally stand by while Black Americans are murdered."

As if it is the fault of "white supremacy" when a person Asian descent's actions disadvantage a black person. I'm very sure they have agency as well. Maybe Tou Thao had his own reasons to not do anything about the event rather than "Oh no, it wasn't my fault. The white man made me do it. As we know Befehl ist Befehl".


Heck, it's pretty clear in some places in Asia, the popular sentiment is that people of African descent are some sort of misguided, degenerate ape. And white people are not that well thought of either.
 
2020-07-06 11:13:14 PM  

adj_m: DerAppie: "Equity" sounds nice, but it is not implementable

Nothing you described has anything to do with equity. Equity is not about forcing people to do things they don't want to do, it's about coming to terms with the massive amount of assistance most successful people receive (despite many of their claims of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps) and providing comparable help to those who aren't getting it.

If you have no baseline understanding of the reasons why a person might drop out of school at 16, it's going to just look like laziness to you. It's also going to be difficult for anyone to discuss potential solutions with you until you choose to inform yourself.


Knowing a lot of dumb hillbillies, it sure looks, walks, and talks like laziness.
 
2020-07-07 2:26:44 AM  

adj_m: DerAppie: "Equity" sounds nice, but it is not implementable

Nothing you described has anything to do with equity. Equity is not about forcing people to do things they don't want to do, it's about coming to terms with the massive amount of assistance most successful people receive (despite many of their claims of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps) and providing comparable help to those who aren't getting it.


Then I have seen too many people using "equity" to mean having people get equal outcomes. Apparently not everyone agrees about the definition.

In that case I'd like to point out that teaching people about equality shouldn't be countered with "equity". You can have all people be equal while still realising the fact that distribution of resources isn't. They are separate issues. I could also argue that giving everyone equal access to education requires giving people with less resources an equitable share of resources, because otherwise the access isn't equal. So no real disagreement there then.

If you have no baseline understanding of the reasons why a person might drop out of school at 16, it's going to just look like laziness to you. It's also going to be difficult for anyone to discuss potential solutions with you until you choose to inform yourself.

I was specifically talking about a lazy person. Pretending I was talking about everyone who drops out at age 16 is a lazy argument.
 
2020-07-07 2:28:50 AM  

DerAppie: adj_m: DerAppie: "Equity" sounds nice, but it is not implementable

Nothing you described has anything to do with equity. Equity is not about forcing people to do things they don't want to do, it's about coming to terms with the massive amount of assistance most successful people receive (despite many of their claims of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps) and providing comparable help to those who aren't getting it.

Then I have seen too many people using "equity" to mean having people get equal outcomes. Apparently not everyone agrees about the definition.

In that case I'd like to point out that teaching people about equality shouldn't be countered with "equity". You can have all people be equal while still realising the fact that distribution of resources isn't. They are separate issues. I could also argue that giving everyone equal access to education requires giving people with less resources an equitable share of resources, because otherwise the access isn't equal. So no real disagreement there then.


I guess that means I should take the advice I gave a few posts up as well...
 
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