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(Syfy)   We've finally located the center of the solar system. Yeah, it's the sun, kinda   (syfy.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, General relativity, Galaxy, Black hole, Neutron star, Supernova, Sun, Jupiter, Universe  
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1507 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Jul 2020 at 6:35 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-07-05 2:53:28 AM  
But planets do have mass, and that means their gravity pulls on the Sun as well, changing the location of the center of mass, what we call the barycenter.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-07-05 6:45:16 AM  
The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.
 
2020-07-05 7:18:47 AM  

pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.


High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?
 
2020-07-05 7:39:46 AM  

Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?


Gonna be real here. I'm went to a private high school was in honors both there and on college and was the highest scoring student in my astronomy class in my first semester and took it because astronomy was a fascination of mine since middle school and in the boy scouts (eagle scout)

But what the flying farking ass of satan are you babbling about?

Sounds fascinating so in all seriousness go on but I don't think that is commonly taught even among good astronomy/physics classes.
 
2020-07-05 7:47:01 AM  
HOLY SHIAT. Paragraphs of build up....and then "math is hard."

FTFA: The math is a tad complex, but in the end... it worked! They were able to nail down the solar system's barycenter to about 100 meters, and the method can be used to get much better timing on the pulsar pulses.

Dude you have to stick the landing. Concluding a meandering article with "it's Bayesian" and "math is hard" -  (Bayesian math isn't hard) , fark off.
 
2020-07-05 8:34:25 AM  
Would like a word...

upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size


Nobody expects the Roman Inquisition!
 
2020-07-05 8:38:08 AM  

WDFark think for a second: Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?

Gonna be real here. I'm went to a private high school was in honors both there and on college and was the highest scoring student in my astronomy class in my first semester and took it because astronomy was a fascination of mine since middle school and in the boy scouts (eagle scout)

But what the flying farking ass of satan are you babbling about?

Sounds fascinating so in all seriousness go on but I don't think that is commonly taught even among good astronomy/physics classes.


You misspelled "astrology"
 
2020-07-05 8:43:21 AM  
Isn't this old news?  Even I know this and went to parochial school.
 
2020-07-05 9:19:46 AM  

gnosis301: Isn't this old news?  Even I know this and went to parochial school.


Catholics today just aren't into that 'denial of science' thing that the US Evangelical Fundies like to hang their hat on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science​_​and_the_Catholic_Church#:~:text=Histor​ically%2C%20the%20Catholic%20Church%20​has,been%20active%20in%20the%20science​s.&text=Catholic%20scientists%2C%20bot​h%20religious%20and,scientific%20disco​very%20in%20many%20fields.

However, there's that denial of child molestation thing....
 
2020-07-05 9:35:46 AM  

gnosis301: Isn't this old news?  Even I know this and went to parochial school.


This isn't about the simple idea of a barycenter.  It's about the dynamics.

The article does a crappy job of explaining why it's important.

A llayout of millisecond pulsars all around us...by triangulating  them ...could be used to measure if we are locally experiencing gravitational waves by repeatedly comparing observational positions.

The challenge is that gravitational wave sizes are smaller than changes of speed due to the precession of the sun around its barycenter. Thus this effect needs to be modeled out, precisely enough to subtract our relative speed vs the pulsar coordinates.

If it was just Jupiter it might not be that hard. But all the other planets also give a small but significant contribution to the precession. Those perturbations also need to be modeled away. Because we're going to an n-body problem they're instead using using probabilities with orbital mechanics to estimate the barycenter and likely Earth's orbital  (and thus observational) speed/position.

FTFA, ot seems that they are accomplishing this using Bayesian probabilities against the positions of all the other planets at the time of observation. I don't know any more than that because I got frustrated w/the article and closed it.
 
2020-07-05 10:44:16 AM  
They had to wait for some new technology to be created.

Rockwell Retro Encabulator
Youtube RXJKdh1KZ0w
 
2020-07-05 11:02:23 AM  

Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.


I dropped out of elementary school, smartypants.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?

The linked study is not concerned with modelling any three-, four- of five-body problems. It is trying to calculate inaccuracies in someone else's model by analyzing subtle timing statistical patterns in arrival times of radio waves from pulsars that appear when observations are converted into the frame of reference of the particular model.
The explanation of how the model works in TFA is abysmal, and the focus on the supposed barycentre location as the important conclusion is just wrong.Bad astronomy indeed.
 
2020-07-05 11:11:26 AM  
Is this like when products say "new & improved"??

If anything, same as before...just more refined.

I hate the hoopla about tweaking and refining things.
Just make it better, bit by bit...no parade needed.

When there's a true new thing
Or actual confirmation...that's when to shout.

Like when we proved gravitational waves exist.
That's a powerful thing.
 
2020-07-05 1:37:37 PM  

tmyk: WDFark think for a second: Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?

Gonna be real here. I'm went to a private high school was in honors both there and on college and was the highest scoring student in my astronomy class in my first semester and took it because astronomy was a fascination of mine since middle school and in the boy scouts (eagle scout)

But what the flying farking ass of satan are you babbling about?

Sounds fascinating so in all seriousness go on but I don't think that is commonly taught even among good astronomy/physics classes.

You misspelled "astrology"


I doubt the local group is a concept taught in astrology.

We're you always this much of an asshole or did it occur after every woman you ever approached said no and saw you for the creep you are?
 
2020-07-05 1:47:29 PM  

WDFark think for a second: tmyk: WDFark think for a second: Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?

Gonna be real here. I'm went to a private high school was in honors both there and on college and was the highest scoring student in my astronomy class in my first semester and took it because astronomy was a fascination of mine since middle school and in the boy scouts (eagle scout)

But what the flying farking ass of satan are you babbling about?

Sounds fascinating so in all seriousness go on but I don't think that is commonly taught even among good astronomy/physics classes.

You misspelled "astrology"

I doubt the local group is a concept taught in astrology.

We're you always this much of an asshole or did it occur after every woman you ever approached said no and saw you for the creep you are?


Dude, you went full "best grades eagle scout honors college hurr durr" and expected to not be mocked for it? Really?
 
2020-07-05 1:54:13 PM  

tmyk: WDFark think for a second: tmyk: WDFark think for a second: Jim_Callahan: pup.socket: The concept of weighted averages is quite old, subby, as old as ancient Greece. Its application to locate the barycenter of the Solar system "inside the Sun" has been known since at least the times of one Isaac Newton.

High-school-dropout-like typing detected.

... actually, even middle schoolers learn that the three-body problem is essentially insoluble in exact terms and has to be approached with modeling approximations, even if you were a high-school dropout how could you possibly not know this?

Gonna be real here. I'm went to a private high school was in honors both there and on college and was the highest scoring student in my astronomy class in my first semester and took it because astronomy was a fascination of mine since middle school and in the boy scouts (eagle scout)

But what the flying farking ass of satan are you babbling about?

Sounds fascinating so in all seriousness go on but I don't think that is commonly taught even among good astronomy/physics classes.

You misspelled "astrology"

I doubt the local group is a concept taught in astrology.

We're you always this much of an asshole or did it occur after every woman you ever approached said no and saw you for the creep you are?

Dude, you went full "best grades eagle scout honors college hurr durr" and expected to not be mocked for it? Really?


Being real about my life and not being completed ignorant of ignorant of the basics of astronomy?

You'd have to be kind of an asshole to be expect to be mocked for that.

But I guess you paint what you know. Best thing my life is great offline. I doubt you can say the same when you look into a mirror. It's probably why I'm not a bully to strangers but you are. Best thing is I wake up and don't have to live with whatever you're going through but for your sake I hope it gets better.
 
2020-07-05 2:14:30 PM  
You didn't have to double down and make things worse. You could have just blamed autocorrect for changing "astrology" to "astronomy" and we'd have believed you.
 
2020-07-05 2:23:25 PM  
The idea that because there's some variation in the barycenter that we can't know it is within the Sun is pretty extreme in terms of stupid. You can still determine bounds on a variable system.
 
2020-07-05 2:27:00 PM  

tmyk: You didn't have to double down and make things worse. You could have just blamed autocorrect for changing "astrology" to "astronomy" and we'd have believed you.


CSB:

I got a full ride scholarship to go on to major in physics or astrophysics. During my going away party at the end of high school my friends got me a big cake that said "happy astrology space cadet."   Was then I realized that none of my friends really knew what astronomy was. I never kept in touch with them after that year.

I went on to do internships  at SLAC, Goddard, and another linac whose name I will not mention because I was well known there,  all before finishing undergrad.

Now I could be really humble and never mention any of the stuff, but then life becomes very boring with everyone so humble they never mention cool stuff like being able to work mentored by Yoji Kondo in the two years he was at Goddard. Look him up. Super nice guy.
/CSB

In grad school I did a bunch of other kick ass stuff in physics and right now I'm a prof in a Uní because I'm a science addict.

If some guy at Fark wants to say he was a Eagle Scout and did kick ass in his astronomy classes, why give a shiat?  I don't think it's bragging, it's just putting out what you know and what you've experienced. People who have a problem with accomplishments should get their head out of their ass.

You don't rise up by dragging everyone down with you.
 
2020-07-05 2:29:53 PM  

wademh: The idea that because there's some variation in the barycenter that we can't know it is within the Sun is pretty extreme in terms of stupid. You can still determine bounds on a variable system.


Estimated bounds on a variable system apparently still had variances that were larger than the expected bounds on pulsar frequencies to get to gravitational waves they were trying to measure. That's why they had to use a model to improve precision.
 
2020-07-05 2:35:54 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: tmyk: You didn't have to double down and make things worse. You could have just blamed autocorrect for changing "astrology" to "astronomy" and we'd have believed you.

CSB:

I got a full ride scholarship to go on to major in physics or astrophysics. During my going away party at the end of high school my friends got me a big cake that said "happy astrology space cadet."   Was then I realized that none of my friends really knew what astronomy was. I never kept in touch with them after that year.

I went on to do internships  at SLAC, Goddard, and another linac whose name I will not mention because I was well known there,  all before finishing undergrad.

Now I could be really humble and never mention any of the stuff, but then life becomes very boring with everyone so humble they never mention cool stuff like being able to work mentored by Yoji Kondo in the two years he was at Goddard. Look him up. Super nice guy.
/CSB

In grad school I did a bunch of other kick ass stuff in physics and right now I'm a prof in a Uní because I'm a science addict.

If some guy at Fark wants to say he was a Eagle Scout and did kick ass in his astronomy classes, why give a shiat?  I don't think it's bragging, it's just putting out what you know and what you've experienced. People who have a problem with accomplishments should get their head out of their ass.

You don't rise up by dragging everyone down with you.


It was a silly joke from a nobody on the internet to a nobody on the internet. Getting as triggered as he did is a sign of some serious insecurity.

Everybody has some really cool shiat they did in life. Struggles, failures, accomplishments, lessons, whatever. Spewing a list of them along with personal attacks and insults when someone makes a stupid joke is not healthy and showed the opposite of the confidence and life satisfaction he claims.

To your point, I'll leave him alone from here on out.
 
2020-07-05 8:42:04 PM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: Catholics today just aren't into that 'denial of science' thing that the US Evangelical Fundies like to hang their hat on.


They never were, at least not privately. The church leaders knew perfectly well that Galileo's heliocentric model of the solar system was entirely correct. They just couldn't let the public know about it, because that information would undermine the church's teachings and thus its authority.
 
2020-07-05 11:56:35 PM  

wademh: The idea that because there's some variation in the barycenter that we can't know it is within the Sun is pretty extreme in terms of stupid. You can still determine bounds on a variable system.


This is exactly what the study is attempting to do - put bounds on the errors in the predictions about positions of various celestial objects of several models that are due to parameters in them that are guessed or assumed, because they are too hard to measure with sufficient precision. The predictions are called "ephemerids" and are basically coordinates of the objects in time and space.

The researchers are doing this by looking for certain statistical patterns in pulsar impulse timings from various pulsar observatories around the world after the observations are converted into the coordinates used by a particular model.

The assumption of the study is that movements of the planets, which also shift the barycenter, will make statistical patterns non-random in places, and that this non-randomness can be extracted from the data, described in terms of real physical quantities (like planet orbit positions) that are otherwise unknown, and then the errors that appear due to those quantities be properly attributed to them.

The purpose of this work is to be able to check if some bump in the data is an error or a proper gravity wave burst... Eventually.

The method is not limited to calculating the "position of the barycenter", it can study any error source that can be modelled in terms of some independent parameter.

The conclusion of the study is that precision of current data is insufficient to apply the method even for the larges source of errors (the barycentre movement caused by Jupiter and Saturn), but not by much and the expectation is they will be able to do so after planned instrument upgrades, which are expected in the near future.

Or somesuch.
 
2020-07-05 11:59:41 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: wademh: The idea that because there's some variation in the barycenter that we can't know it is within the Sun is pretty extreme in terms of stupid. You can still determine bounds on a variable system.

Estimated bounds on a variable system apparently still had variances that were larger than the expected bounds on pulsar frequencies to get to gravitational waves they were trying to measure. That's why they had to use a model to improve precision.


I was expecting Phil to say the researchers were able to use variation in the signals from the millisecond pulsars to correlate deviations in Earth's orbit and then infer the barycenter from there.
 
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