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(Apple Insider)   WWDC: "You got your iPhone in my Apple Silicon Mac" Rumor mill: "You got your ASMac in my iPhone"   (appleinsider.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Apple Inc., Leaker MauriQHD, Operating system, Macintosh, Apple Silicon, Mac OS X, Twitter thread, phone run macOS  
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533 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Jun 2020 at 5:14 PM (10 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



22 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-06-30 4:44:45 PM  
You can emulate a desktop OS on a tablet just fine like any OS, but you can't use it productively, believe me. You imagine that it would work with a pen or something, but it doesn't. Menus don't work, the controls are too small, and most of all you're in the wrong frame of mind trying to touch everything that isn't built for touch. If this mess of a rumor report is trying to say that Apple is making iphones capable of video out to a tv or monitor, they already do that with the airplay function. The "Desktop Experience" is software developed with a full keyboard and mouse assumed to be there.
 
2020-06-30 5:30:43 PM  
I predict this thread will be full of Apple haters with no intention of ever buying an Apple product who hate Apple so much that they feel compelled to comment on how this is simultaneously an idea that they stole from somebody else and also the dumbest idea a company has ever had.

Of course in the near future when Google does the same thing with Android and all the manufacturers create hybrid devices just like this, they'll all buy one on release day.
 
2020-06-30 5:40:56 PM  

Slackfumasta: I predict this thread will be full of Apple haters with no intention of ever buying an Apple product who hate Apple so much that they feel compelled to comment on how this is simultaneously an idea that they stole from somebody else and also the dumbest idea a company has ever had.

Of course in the near future when Google does the same thing with Android and all the manufacturers create hybrid devices just like this, they'll all buy one on release day.


Well, you caught me in advance. But the proof is hard to deny on both fronts.

Librem 5

There are older attempts, and similar, like Firefox OS, Windows Phone, even some Android tablets like the Transformer.

Having owned a Transformer... It was more useful than a tablet, but it wasn't a laptop replacement.
 
2020-06-30 6:03:11 PM  

Quantumbunny: Slackfumasta: I predict this thread will be full of Apple haters with no intention of ever buying an Apple product who hate Apple so much that they feel compelled to comment on how this is simultaneously an idea that they stole from somebody else and also the dumbest idea a company has ever had.

Of course in the near future when Google does the same thing with Android and all the manufacturers create hybrid devices just like this, they'll all buy one on release day.

Well, you caught me in advance. But the proof is hard to deny on both fronts.

Librem 5

There are older attempts, and similar, like Firefox OS, Windows Phone, even some Android tablets like the Transformer.

Having owned a Transformer... It was more useful than a tablet, but it wasn't a laptop replacement.


Librem 5 lol. Good one.
 
2020-06-30 6:12:56 PM  

covfefe: You can emulate a desktop OS on a tablet just fine like any OS, but you can't use it productively, believe me. You imagine that it would work with a pen or something, but it doesn't. Menus don't work, the controls are too small, and most of all you're in the wrong frame of mind trying to touch everything that isn't built for touch. If this mess of a rumor report is trying to say that Apple is making iphones capable of video out to a tv or monitor, they already do that with the airplay function. The "Desktop Experience" is software developed with a full keyboard and mouse assumed to be there.


That's not what's (potentially) going to happen. The iPad/iPhone/whatever will act as it normally does with the normal UI for its form-factor. However, once you plug it into a proper dock with display/keyboard/mouse the system will flip a switch and it will behave as MacOS does now.

It's similar to Samsung's DeX mode (without the need for an app on an existing PC/Mac), and what Ubuntu wanted to do with their phone (that never came to be).

I can see it happening eventually. The merging of MacOS and iOS has been in the works for years now. The transition to ARM for Mac will speed it up as zillions of iOS apps won't have to be tweaked/recompiled to run on a Mac (e.g., as with Catalyst now). It'll just take some time to shake out the APIs between the two OSes and merge the UIs so the shift won't be so jarring for most people.
 
2020-06-30 6:35:45 PM  

spiralscratch: covfefe: You can emulate a desktop OS on a tablet just fine like any OS, but you can't use it productively, believe me. You imagine that it would work with a pen or something, but it doesn't. Menus don't work, the controls are too small, and most of all you're in the wrong frame of mind trying to touch everything that isn't built for touch. If this mess of a rumor report is trying to say that Apple is making iphones capable of video out to a tv or monitor, they already do that with the airplay function. The "Desktop Experience" is software developed with a full keyboard and mouse assumed to be there.

That's not what's (potentially) going to happen. The iPad/iPhone/whatever will act as it normally does with the normal UI for its form-factor. However, once you plug it into a proper dock with display/keyboard/mouse the system will flip a switch and it will behave as MacOS does now.

It's similar to Samsung's DeX mode (without the need for an app on an existing PC/Mac), and what Ubuntu wanted to do with their phone (that never came to be).

I can see it happening eventually. The merging of MacOS and iOS has been in the works for years now. The transition to ARM for Mac will speed it up as zillions of iOS apps won't have to be tweaked/recompiled to run on a Mac (e.g., as with Catalyst now). It'll just take some time to shake out the APIs between the two OSes and merge the UIs so the shift won't be so jarring for most people.


Is ARM good enough to use as a primary workstation cpu?
 
2020-06-30 6:46:41 PM  
This was the basic idea behind the Ubuntu phone which was eventually scrapped. I think it's a forward thinking idea if the CPU power contained within the form factor can rise to the occasion.

I'm extremely skeptical that it can right now, even as good as ARM seems to be getting. But in 10 years? I could see a device that's your one device that, for example, if you were a gamer or developer or creative you dock with USB-F(or whatever of the future) to your GPU rig or Compute rig and you're good to go. Maybe by that point USB will be fast enough they could load the "dock" up with extra CPU cores, ram, etc to support actual professional applications that need real GPU and Compute/memory iops heft.

So I don't think this could be a viable thing immediately, but as a long term roadmap, it could be interesting. Seems like it might just be an edge case and not worth developing, honestly. For most people the phone and their smart dongle on the tee vee is all the computer they want or would use anyway.
 
2020-06-30 6:56:51 PM  

spiralscratch: I can see it happening eventually. The merging of MacOS and iOS has been in the works for years now. The transition to ARM for Mac will speed it up as zillions of iOS apps won't have to be tweaked/recompiled to run on a Mac (e.g., as with Catalyst now). It'll just take some time to shake out the APIs between the two OSes and merge the UIs so the shift won't be so jarring for most people.


And it's the UI that's the real hard part of this - it's the same OS under the skin, it's the frameworks for desktop/mobile that are different. What I'm curious about is how they'll handle the different security models, as iOS is far more locked down than macOS, and the vast majority Mac users aren't going to stick with the platform if they can't install their own apps, boughten or open source.
 
2020-06-30 7:15:32 PM  

Shakin_Haitian: Is ARM good enough to use as a primary workstation cpu?


On the low end, sure. Right now, it can be for most basic tasks such as typical internet, office, light photo editing, etc. What most people use iPads and ARM-based Surface systems for now really isn't much different than what they use lower-end Intel/AMD laptops/desktops for.

There are also other more niche ARM-based systems that some more daring use as their daily, such as the Raspberry Pi 4 or Pinebook Pro. And these systems, while certainly not bad, are not the state-of-the-art like you'll find in the current flagship Apple or Android phones/tablets.

If you want some numbers, benchmarks are starting to leak. And those are for emulation on a CPU that's really two years old now (the A12Z is a tweak of the original A12), not built to take advantage of the additional RAM,GPU, and cooling capacity a larger systems allows, and made on a process that's rapidly evolving. Once the real ARM Macs are released with native apps available it's going to be very different.

But don't expect the Mac Pro or maybe even the top-end Macbook Pros to be going ARM any time soon.

I'm not really a Mac person anymore, but It's going to be pretty interesting.
 
2020-06-30 7:33:58 PM  

feanorn: And it's the UI that's the real hard part of this - it's the same OS under the skin, it's the frameworks for desktop/mobile that are different. What I'm curious about is how they'll handle the different security models, as iOS is far more locked down than macOS, and the vast majority Mac users aren't going to stick with the platform if they can't install their own apps, boughten or open source.


Also a good point. Apple has been tightening up MacOS for many years now, but it's nowhere near where iOS is.

It probably won't be an issue for most if their iWhatever becomes their new Mac. Relatively few use anything that isn't stock or can't be easily obtained via the app store. I can see it being an issue for those who code, use bespoke apps for business, or the kinds of things that Apple would never approve (e.g., MakeMKV), etc. "Side-loading" is going to have to be a thing or those people will migrate to other OSes. And maybe Apple doesn't care.
 
2020-06-30 7:43:59 PM  

spiralscratch: feanorn: And it's the UI that's the real hard part of this - it's the same OS under the skin, it's the frameworks for desktop/mobile that are different. What I'm curious about is how they'll handle the different security models, as iOS is far more locked down than macOS, and the vast majority Mac users aren't going to stick with the platform if they can't install their own apps, boughten or open source.

Also a good point. Apple has been tightening up MacOS for many years now, but it's nowhere near where iOS is.

It probably won't be an issue for most if their iWhatever becomes their new Mac. Relatively few use anything that isn't stock or can't be easily obtained via the app store. I can see it being an issue for those who code, use bespoke apps for business, or the kinds of things that Apple would never approve (e.g., MakeMKV), etc. "Side-loading" is going to have to be a thing or those people will migrate to other OSes. And maybe Apple doesn't care.


Maybe they don't - but there were heartening signs that they do care during various WWDC presentations. Apple not only acknowledged and name checked macOS' UNIX status, but said they worked to make Homebrew, among other projects, work just fine in Big Sur and on into the ARM transition.
 
2020-06-30 7:48:06 PM  
cdn.techstuffer.comView Full Size


/ RIP Windows 10 Mobile with Continuum.
// Got the dock for my Lumia 950 XL and it was pretty damn impressive.
 
2020-06-30 8:02:25 PM  

feanorn: Maybe they don't - but there were heartening signs that they do care during various WWDC presentations. Apple not only acknowledged and name checked macOS' UNIX status, but said they worked to make Homebrew, among other projects, work just fine in Big Sur and on into the ARM transition.


I hadn't caught that. It's good to hear.


Unscratchable_Itch: [cdn.techstuffer.com image 850x507]

/ RIP Windows 10 Mobile with Continuum.
// Got the dock for my Lumia 950 XL and it was pretty damn impressive.


I'd forgotten that was a thing. I don't think it was much publicized.

I know some people love it, but I always felt the Win10 Mobile UI was an absolute mess. Random, sliding tiles all over the damn place. Even the pic above shows two of them, larger but with no real info, cut in half by the bottom of the screen.
 
2020-06-30 10:09:26 PM  
They should call it MacOS 8 and name the design philosphy Metro.

The expanded desktop operating system can be called ContinuiOS.

This is revolutionary, good work Apple on new, out of the box ideas that literally every other operating system hasn't done already.

Once they've ironed out the bugs, they can go straight to MacOS 10 (X is so last year).

Apple Silicon-powered macOS

What on earth is up with this? It's so unwieldy and stupid. It's not running on the "Apple Silicon instruction set" but they mixed and matched it with x86 on the earlier announcement.
 
2020-06-30 10:44:31 PM  

spiralscratch: But don't expect the Mac Pro or maybe even the top-end Macbook Pros to be going ARM any time soon.

I'm not really a Mac person anymore, but It's going to be pretty interesting.


The Mac Pro will almost certainly be the last to transition.  Apple will have to develop a whole new chip for that one.

The top end MacBook Pro?  That might be the first to transition.

I'm typing this on a 2019 16" MBP right now, which replaced my older 2014 15" MBP.  What did I get for that upgrade?  No improvement in single-threaded performance.  I went from 4 cores to 8 cores, but it is rare I do anything that hits that many.  Single thread dominates my usage, and in 6 years, Intel has accomplished bupkis.

In the meantime, the A12X/A12Z, which is an almost 2 year old chip has about the same single-threaded performance.  In an iPad. With no fan.  It is also no slouch in multithread, with a 4+4 big.LITTLE design.  It can't match my 8-core MBP, but half of those cores are dedicated to power efficiency.

In the meantime, the A13 chip has improved instructions per clock (IPC), and the A14 this fall will surely do it again.  A Mac chip based of the A14 will probably have 40-50% better IPC than the A12X/Z.  Give it a fan and you can easily boost the clock speed from 2.7GHz up to, lets say 3.5GHz.

Add all those improvements together, and the hypothetical A14Mac chip could nearly double the single-threaded performance of Intel's current chips.

Surely Intel will be better in multithread, right?  Well, Bloomberg is rumoring the A14Mac (or whatever they call it) will be a 12-core chip (8+4 big.LITTLE). Each of those 8 performance cores could run at up to double the speed an Intel core.  If Apple gets the scaling right, it will make the A14Mac competitive with most Xeons for multithread.  In a laptop chip.  Without breaking a sweat.  Battery life will almost certainly improve.

Apple knows what they're capable of.  They wouldn't be doing this transition unless they can offer a value proposition to their users.  I'm not doing any crazy extrapolation here.  That is just how good Apple's ARM chips have gotten.  Their mobile chips are crazy fast now.  If they put their energy into a laptop chip, it's going to be nuts.
 
2020-06-30 10:48:28 PM  

dyhchong: Apple Silicon-powered macOS

What on earth is up with this? It's so unwieldy and stupid. It's not running on the "Apple Silicon instruction set" but they mixed and matched it with x86 on the earlier announcement.


It is a placeholder name, probably.  It is meant to emphasize that the chips are not merely ARM, but also have integrated graphics, IO, and even a tensor processor designed to speed machine learning operations (the "Neural Engine").  ARM is only a piece of the whole product.
 
2020-06-30 11:00:23 PM  

dyhchong: They should call it MacOS 8 and name the design philosphy Metro.

The expanded desktop operating system can be called ContinuiOS.

This is revolutionary, good work Apple on new, out of the box ideas that literally every other operating system hasn't done already.

Once they've ironed out the bugs, they can go straight to MacOS 10 (X is so last year).

Apple Silicon-powered macOS

What on earth is up with this? It's so unwieldy and stupid. It's not running on the "Apple Silicon instruction set" but they mixed and matched it with x86 on the earlier announcement.


I'm not sure what you're upset about this time, but you seem to have a raging hate boner for Apple and Tesla. If your priapism doesn't subside for 4 hours, you should probably call your doctor.
 
2020-06-30 11:05:29 PM  

spiralscratch: feanorn: Maybe they don't - but there were heartening signs that they do care during various WWDC presentations. Apple not only acknowledged and name checked macOS' UNIX status, but said they worked to make Homebrew, among other projects, work just fine in Big Sur and on into the ARM transition.

I hadn't caught that. It's good to hear.


Unscratchable_Itch: [cdn.techstuffer.com image 850x507]

/ RIP Windows 10 Mobile with Continuum.
// Got the dock for my Lumia 950 XL and it was pretty damn impressive.

I'd forgotten that was a thing. I don't think it was much publicized.

I know some people love it, but I always felt the Win10 Mobile UI was an absolute mess. Random, sliding tiles all over the damn place. Even the pic above shows two of them, larger but with no real info, cut in half by the bottom of the screen.


No, they didn't publicize it at all because Microsoft has no idea to market to consumers except for the Xbox. The Win 10 Mobile UI was awesome, nothing random about it. You could set it up however you wanted like the WIn10 desktop start menu, including grouping and resizing tiles. You could make the tiles live or not. I had to switch to Android, 8 months ago, and it was rough. There are Win10 type launchers for Android, which I find hilarious. I was thinking of getting one but I don't want to pay for it.
 
2020-06-30 11:11:19 PM  

Likwit: I'm not sure what you're upset about this time, but you seem to have a raging hate boner for Apple and Tesla. If your priapism doesn't subside for 4 hours, you should probably call your doctor.


Lol, it takes two sides and well, here you are.
 
2020-06-30 11:15:28 PM  

EponymousCowHerd: dyhchong: Apple Silicon-powered macOS

What on earth is up with this? It's so unwieldy and stupid. It's not running on the "Apple Silicon instruction set" but they mixed and matched it with x86 on the earlier announcement.

It is a placeholder name, probably.  It is meant to emphasize that the chips are not merely ARM, but also have integrated graphics, IO, and even a tensor processor designed to speed machine learning operations (the "Neural Engine").  ARM is only a piece of the whole product.


Except that's no different to any ARM SoC. They're all fully integrated. That's why they're called SoCs.
 
2020-07-01 3:51:26 AM  

EponymousCowHerd: spiralscratch: But don't expect the Mac Pro or maybe even the top-end Macbook Pros to be going ARM any time soon.

I'm not really a Mac person anymore, but It's going to be pretty interesting.

The Mac Pro will almost certainly be the last to transition.  Apple will have to develop a whole new chip for that one.

The top end MacBook Pro?  That might be the first to transition.

I'm typing this on a 2019 16" MBP right now, which replaced my older 2014 15" MBP.  What did I get for that upgrade?  No improvement in single-threaded performance.  I went from 4 cores to 8 cores, but it is rare I do anything that hits that many.  Single thread dominates my usage, and in 6 years, Intel has accomplished bupkis.

In the meantime, the A12X/A12Z, which is an almost 2 year old chip has about the same single-threaded performance.  In an iPad. With no fan.  It is also no slouch in multithread, with a 4+4 big.LITTLE design.  It can't match my 8-core MBP, but half of those cores are dedicated to power efficiency.

In the meantime, the A13 chip has improved instructions per clock (IPC), and the A14 this fall will surely do it again.  A Mac chip based of the A14 will probably have 40-50% better IPC than the A12X/Z.  Give it a fan and you can easily boost the clock speed from 2.7GHz up to, lets say 3.5GHz.

Add all those improvements together, and the hypothetical A14Mac chip could nearly double the single-threaded performance of Intel's current chips.

Surely Intel will be better in multithread, right?  Well, Bloomberg is rumoring the A14Mac (or whatever they call it) will be a 12-core chip (8+4 big.LITTLE). Each of those 8 performance cores could run at up to double the speed an Intel core.  If Apple gets the scaling right, it will make the A14Mac competitive with most Xeons for multithread.  In a laptop chip.  Without breaking a sweat.  Battery life will almost certainly improve.

Apple knows what they're capable of.  They wouldn't be doing this transition unless they can offer a val ...


While I'm sure Apple is concerned with single-thread and overall CPU performance, that's not their only focus. Things like battery life and GPU performance have also been priorities. Not to mention their almost annoying preference to "thin and light" at the expense of performance/usability (e.g., that damn butterfly keyboard).

I think it makes sense for them to start with the Macs that are most like their current ARM-based systems in form-factor and performance expectations. Begin with what you know, and build on that. I think it'll go something like:
- First to transition will be the Mini, and the Air and/or bring back the Macbook. These are the closest to an iThing.
- Follow that with the Air (if not already moved), low-end iMacs, and (lower-end?) 13" MBPs. Expectations for these are higher, but they're still not too different.
- Third are remaining any 13" MBPs , the better iMacs, and 16" MBPs. Basically anything that pros might buy and/or has a discrete GPU.
- Last is the Mac Pro.
 
2020-07-01 12:10:36 PM  

covfefe: You can emulate a desktop OS on a tablet just fine like any OS, but you can't use it productively, believe me. You imagine that it would work with a pen or something, but it doesn't. Menus don't work, the controls are too small, and most of all you're in the wrong frame of mind trying to touch everything that isn't built for touch. If this mess of a rumor report is trying to say that Apple is making iphones capable of video out to a tv or monitor, they already do that with the airplay function. The "Desktop Experience" is software developed with a full keyboard and mouse assumed to be there.


I learned that the first time I tried to run a published citrix app on my ipad, it was more than a headache to get anything done
 
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