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(Some Guy)   There's a proper way for a pilot to talk to an air traffic controller. This isn't it   (onemileatatime.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Air traffic control, negligent pilot, Bravo airspace, Instrument flight rules, ATC audio, private student, Class B airspace, air traffic controller  
•       •       •

5891 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2020 at 5:05 AM (10 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



57 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-06-30 12:48:00 AM  
The pilot wasn't following ATC directions. Are there any pilots here who could answer if this kind of refusing instructions is common? Did the tower ever consider scrambling an intercept to guard against the possibility he had some sort of terrorist intentions?
 
2020-06-30 2:07:59 AM  
"Yes, twice in 1944 but it was dark and I didn't land".
 
2020-06-30 5:07:17 AM  
"Negative.  This is a lighthouse"
 
2020-06-30 5:12:28 AM  
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
 
2020-06-30 5:13:32 AM  
*sigh*
What's Harrison done now?
 
2020-06-30 5:19:51 AM  
YOU ARE NOT MY REAL MOM, TOWER! YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!
 
2020-06-30 5:23:10 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-30 5:23:52 AM  
If the comments in TFA are correct apparently this guy is a SoCal real estate agent flying a Cessna bugsmasher registered to "WIFE APPROVED LLC." So, in other words, a humongous dick.
 
2020-06-30 5:28:46 AM  
I wonder if the other pilot that called him an asshole will also get a black mark. For interfering with the communications?
 
2020-06-30 5:47:19 AM  
At this point another pilot chimes in and says "you're an [email protected]@hole,"

I'll have to remember that one for future use.
 
2020-06-30 5:50:13 AM  
"advise to contact Las Vegas approach. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy."

TIL, that when a pilot farks up really badly, the air controller tells him/her to dial a phone number.

I guess the idea is that the ATC then proceeds to yell at you in private, without wasting time on the shared radio frequency.

Got some reading to do to determine what happens if, as in this case, the pilot's response is "FRO"...
 
2020-06-30 6:08:25 AM  

thepeterd: [Fark user image image 425x214]


He just wants 'some butts.'
 
2020-06-30 6:14:20 AM  
It sounds like he thought he had a clearance and was flying the normal procedure had he been approved.  The direction to leave the airspace wasn't clear either as it should have been a direction.  "get out" isn't suitable in class B airspace.
 
2020-06-30 6:20:34 AM  

Robo Beat: If the comments in TFA are correct apparently this guy is a SoCal real estate agent flying a Cessna bugsmasher registered to "WIFE APPROVED LLC." So, in other words, a humongous dick.


Yup... here's the flight aware data on his plane:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-30 6:20:38 AM  
It's a damn good thing he doesn't know how much I hate his guts
 
2020-06-30 6:21:00 AM  
the ATC is clearly racist
 
2020-06-30 6:21:39 AM  
 
2020-06-30 6:31:14 AM  
TROLLING as an Air Traffic Controller in Flight Sim X! (Multiplayer)
Youtube lPNN8w2XlwY
 
2020-06-30 6:43:13 AM  
When pilots and cocaine collide
 
2020-06-30 6:45:04 AM  

Publikwerks: Also - here is the flight in question:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7​31NR/history/20200620/1755Z


Without having listened to the tape, I can guess why the ATC was pissed.  The guy cut right across the primary approach into LAS, I infer without clearance.  While in the COVID era that may not have put him at great risk, at other times there'd have been an airliner coming through there every two or three minutes.  I can see why ATC would not be playing games in that area.
 
2020-06-30 6:48:11 AM  

dready zim: When pilots and cocaine collide


They can certainly demand an immediate toxicology test once he landed. This clown should have his license pulled. If he tests positive, that revocation should be permanent. That's what the FCC did with John Denver when he tested positive for alcohol and cocaine after he'd pulled several idiotic antics with his Stearmann.
 
2020-06-30 7:10:42 AM  

Warthog: Publikwerks: Also - here is the flight in question:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7​31NR/history/20200620/1755Z

Without having listened to the tape, I can guess why the ATC was pissed.  The guy cut right across the primary approach into LAS, I infer without clearance.  While in the COVID era that may not have put him at great risk, at other times there'd have been an airliner coming through there every two or three minutes.  I can see why ATC would not be playing games in that area.


His path looks like it was GPS and I expect twenty years ago he would have flown direct to Boulder City VOR and then off to Henderson.  I don't have current charts but they moved the GPS waypoints inside the cardinal VORs in many cases to save some fuel for the airlines.  That would have moved the path north slightly and cut into the class B parallel to the notch left to get to Henderson from the east.

/plainsplaining: cardinal VORs are old radios that are on the 4 corners of a major city 20 to 30 miles out from the main airport.  VOR signals define the "high ways in the sky".  Old days planes flew NY -> STL -> KC -> LA.  Once things got busy they added up to 4 VORs around airports so then the path was NY -> STL north cardinal VOR -> KC  north royal cardinal VOR -> LAX which shifted the traffic one way to the north and the other way to the south.
 
2020-06-30 7:45:40 AM  
He probably wasn't even wearing a mask
 
2020-06-30 7:47:30 AM  
i.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2020-06-30 7:48:17 AM  
He then asked for permission to buzz the tower, but was told the pattern was full.
 
2020-06-30 8:17:50 AM  

Publikwerks: Robo Beat: If the comments in TFA are correct apparently this guy is a SoCal real estate agent flying a Cessna bugsmasher registered to "WIFE APPROVED LLC." So, in other words, a humongous dick.

Yup... here's the flight aware data on his plane:
[Fark user image 850x446]


Goddammit do we really need to dox everyone who does something wrong these days?  If the FAA wants to do something they will.
 
2020-06-30 8:25:41 AM  

Steakzilla: Goddammit do we really need to dox everyone who does something wrong these days? If the FAA wants to do something they will.


It's not a doxxing.  All airplane tail numbers are on open registries.  Many websites also show past flight data.  This is like looking up someone's car at the tax assessors website type of information.
 
2020-06-30 8:32:13 AM  

Thudfark: It's a damn good thing he doesn't know how much I hate his guts


It's a damn good thing you don't know how much he hates your guts

:D
 
2020-06-30 8:35:15 AM  

Steakzilla: Publikwerks: Robo Beat: If the comments in TFA are correct apparently this guy is a SoCal real estate agent flying a Cessna bugsmasher registered to "WIFE APPROVED LLC." So, in other words, a humongous dick.

Yup... here's the flight aware data on his plane:
[Fark user image 850x446]

Goddammit do we really need to dox everyone who does something wrong these days?  If the FAA wants to do something they will.


I can schedule the surgery for you to have that huge knot in your panties removed.

Or, you can just fark off.

Either way, STFU and GTFO.
 
2020-06-30 8:47:35 AM  

MythDragon: [i.kym-cdn.com image 850x478]


Yeah, there's a lot of that going around lately.
 
2020-06-30 8:53:23 AM  

Deathfrogg: dready zim: When pilots and cocaine collide

They can certainly demand an immediate toxicology test once he landed. This clown should have his license pulled. If he tests positive, that revocation should be permanent. That's what the FCC did with John Denver when he tested positive for alcohol and cocaine after he'd pulled several idiotic antics with his Stearmann.


Dunno why I typed "FCC" when I meant FAA.

I'm stupid that time of morning I guess.
 
2020-06-30 8:57:42 AM  
Some people should not be allowed to fly airplanes.
 
2020-06-30 9:00:04 AM  

Deathfrogg: Deathfrogg: dready zim: When pilots and cocaine collide

They can certainly demand an immediate toxicology test once he landed. This clown should have his license pulled. If he tests positive, that revocation should be permanent. That's what the FCC did with John Denver when he tested positive for alcohol and cocaine after he'd pulled several idiotic antics with his Stearmann.

Dunno why I typed "FCC" when I meant FAA.

I'm stupid that time of morning I guess.


The FCC can pull your aviation radio license.  That is harsh way to ground a plane.  I think FAA law still implies an implied FCC radio license for pilots.  In the commonwealth there is special aviation law exam required to get the implied radio license.
 
2020-06-30 9:07:38 AM  
Whoever called that cockbag an asshole is my hero
 
2020-06-30 9:24:32 AM  
y.yarn.coView Full Size
 
2020-06-30 9:40:00 AM  

Shotgun Justice: Steakzilla: Goddammit do we really need to dox everyone who does something wrong these days? If the FAA wants to do something they will.

It's not a doxxing.  All airplane tail numbers are on open registries.  Many websites also show past flight data.  This is like looking up someone's car at the tax assessors website type of information.


Pilot registrations and even date of last medical are available to anyone online. Not all pilots are listed so if that guy who just gave you a ride isn't listed, you have to ask.

Biennial flight reviews? Ha.  That isn't listed anywhere you can look it up, and pilots do not carry proof. I know a few that haven't had one in decades. Nobody knows if they clear their turns.
 
2020-06-30 9:41:14 AM  

DON.MAC: Deathfrogg: Deathfrogg: dready zim: When pilots and cocaine collide

They can certainly demand an immediate toxicology test once he landed. This clown should have his license pulled. If he tests positive, that revocation should be permanent. That's what the FCC did with John Denver when he tested positive for alcohol and cocaine after he'd pulled several idiotic antics with his Stearmann.

Dunno why I typed "FCC" when I meant FAA.

I'm stupid that time of morning I guess.

The FCC can pull your aviation radio license.  That is harsh way to ground a plane.  I think FAA law still implies an implied FCC radio license for pilots.  In the commonwealth there is special aviation law exam required to get the implied radio license.


WUT.
 
2020-06-30 9:52:01 AM  
I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.  When they can talk to everyone, they speed up airport operations but if a pilot can't talk to them, they have to compensate and get everyone to avoid the oddball who should be flying to the flight plan and published procedures.

If the pilot has a checkpoint list and has that marked off that he had a class B approval, he has nothing to worry about.  The controller objected way after the pilot was deep inside class B and didn't give the pilot vectors out which isn't typical for a controller.

In most cases, once you take off with a flight plan and your radio dies, you fly it all the way to the plan.  If a controller makes an unreasonable request, you can decline it as the pilot in command.  In most cases, the controller will explain why or come up with an option.  This controller did neither other than to leave which the pilot did in the most direct path according to his stated intentions.
 
2020-06-30 9:57:27 AM  

Nocrash: DON.MAC: Deathfrogg: Deathfrogg: dready zim: When pilots and cocaine collide

They can certainly demand an immediate toxicology test once he landed. This clown should have his license pulled. If he tests positive, that revocation should be permanent. That's what the FCC did with John Denver when he tested positive for alcohol and cocaine after he'd pulled several idiotic antics with his Stearmann.

Dunno why I typed "FCC" when I meant FAA.

I'm stupid that time of morning I guess.

The FCC can pull your aviation radio license.  That is harsh way to ground a plane.  I think FAA law still implies an implied FCC radio license for pilots.  In the commonwealth there is special aviation law exam required to get the implied radio license.

WUT.


Every plane has a radio license.  If the FCC yanks that, good luck getting in the air for a while because the FAA will yank the airworthy and won't give it back until the FCC give the license back which they won't do until the FAA give the plane an airworthy.  It was used in the 80s for planes that had odd trips to South America.

Pilots used to have to have a Radio License issued by the FCC.  At some point (1980?) that became like a CB license where you had to pay them but they didn't care.  Later you didn't even have to pay.  Then it became too much work and they just gave everyone a license but like a CB license, the FCC can revoke it.
 
2020-06-30 10:11:19 AM  
You need explicit permission to enter class bravo. The magic words are literally "November XYZ, cleared to enter the class bravo"
 
2020-06-30 10:16:52 AM  

DON.MAC: I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.  When they can talk to everyone, they speed up airport operations but if a pilot can't talk to them, they have to compensate and get everyone to avoid the oddball who should be flying to the flight plan and published procedures.

If the pilot has a checkpoint list and has that marked off that he had a class B approval, he has nothing to worry about.  The controller objected way after the pilot was deep inside class B and didn't give the pilot vectors out which isn't typical for a controller.

In most cases, once you take off with a flight plan and your radio dies, you fly it all the way to the plan.  If a controller makes an unreasonable request, you can decline it as the pilot in command.  In most cases, the controller will explain why or come up with an option.  This controller did neither other than to leave which the pilot did in the most direct path according to his stated intentions.


My way of looking at it is that the ATC has the full view of the board, you do not, so they *ARE* in control, whether you like it or not.

The 3D space around an airport is large, complicated, and full of fast moving bombs.  If the ATC gives you an order, they have a reason, not just necause they are scratching their nuts.  You, the pilot, may not have a full understanding of the airspace, they do.

Directly disobeying ATC like this should cost your licence.
 
2020-06-30 10:38:59 AM  

GrogSmash: DON.MAC: I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.  When they can talk to everyone, they speed up airport operations but if a pilot can't talk to them, they have to compensate and get everyone to avoid the oddball who should be flying to the flight plan and published procedures.

If the pilot has a checkpoint list and has that marked off that he had a class B approval, he has nothing to worry about.  The controller objected way after the pilot was deep inside class B and didn't give the pilot vectors out which isn't typical for a controller.

In most cases, once you take off with a flight plan and your radio dies, you fly it all the way to the plan.  If a controller makes an unreasonable request, you can decline it as the pilot in command.  In most cases, the controller will explain why or come up with an option.  This controller did neither other than to leave which the pilot did in the most direct path according to his stated intentions.

My way of looking at it is that the ATC has the full view of the board, you do not, so they *ARE* in control, whether you like it or not.

The 3D space around an airport is large, complicated, and full of fast moving bombs.  If the ATC gives you an order, they have a reason, not just necause they are scratching their nuts.  You, the pilot, may not have a full understanding of the airspace, they do.

Directly disobeying ATC like this should cost your licence.


Which begs the question: why didn't she give him an order in the form of a turn direction and heading? If she had, and he ignored it, he would get his ticket yanked. Telling him simply to get out without a vector was stupid, leaving it up to him, if he chose to obey that nonsense, to do anything he wanted to egress the class B. Better he remain on his intended course and remain predictable than just start doing random stuff around the heavies.

I wonder what happened just before this. Maybe the controller is his ex-wife.
 
2020-06-30 10:51:10 AM  

Sexy Jesus: GrogSmash: DON.MAC: I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.  When they can talk to everyone, they speed up airport operations but if a pilot can't talk to them, they have to compensate and get everyone to avoid the oddball who should be flying to the flight plan and published procedures.

If the pilot has a checkpoint list and has that marked off that he had a class B approval, he has nothing to worry about.  The controller objected way after the pilot was deep inside class B and didn't give the pilot vectors out which isn't typical for a controller.

In most cases, once you take off with a flight plan and your radio dies, you fly it all the way to the plan.  If a controller makes an unreasonable request, you can decline it as the pilot in command.  In most cases, the controller will explain why or come up with an option.  This controller did neither other than to leave which the pilot did in the most direct path according to his stated intentions.

My way of looking at it is that the ATC has the full view of the board, you do not, so they *ARE* in control, whether you like it or not.

The 3D space around an airport is large, complicated, and full of fast moving bombs.  If the ATC gives you an order, they have a reason, not just necause they are scratching their nuts.  You, the pilot, may not have a full understanding of the airspace, they do.

Directly disobeying ATC like this should cost your licence.

Which begs the question: why didn't she give him an order in the form of a turn direction and heading? If she had, and he ignored it, he would get his ticket yanked. Telling him simply to get out without a vector was stupid, leaving it up to him, if he chose to obey that nonsense, to do anything he wanted to egress the class B. Better he remain on his intended course and remain predictable than just start doing random stuff around the heavies.

I wonder what happened just before this. Maybe the controller is his ex-wife.


I will give you that.  The last thing you need is an erratic object in restricted space.

That entire conversation needs to be reviewed, and both parties explain what the hell happened.
 
2020-06-30 11:23:44 AM  

GrogSmash: DON.MAC: I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.  When they can talk to everyone, they speed up airport operations but if a pilot can't talk to them, they have to compensate and get everyone to avoid the oddball who should be flying to the flight plan and published procedures.

If the pilot has a checkpoint list and has that marked off that he had a class B approval, he has nothing to worry about.  The controller objected way after the pilot was deep inside class B and didn't give the pilot vectors out which isn't typical for a controller.

In most cases, once you take off with a flight plan and your radio dies, you fly it all the way to the plan.  If a controller makes an unreasonable request, you can decline it as the pilot in command.  In most cases, the controller will explain why or come up with an option.  This controller did neither other than to leave which the pilot did in the most direct path according to his stated intentions.

My way of looking at it is that the ATC has the full view of the board, you do not, so they *ARE* in control, whether you like it or not.

The 3D space around an airport is large, complicated, and full of fast moving bombs.  If the ATC gives you an order, they have a reason, not just necause they are scratching their nuts.  You, the pilot, may not have a full understanding of the airspace, they do.

Directly disobeying ATC like this should cost your licence.


No lie - the potential for utter screaming disaster is too high if you just decide you know what's good fark them.  On the off chance that the ATC is just being a dick - well that's what review boards are for - and all the data/interaction will be recorded.
 
2020-06-30 12:22:39 PM  

NotCodger: The pilot wasn't following ATC directions. Are there any pilots here who could answer if this kind of refusing instructions is common? Did the tower ever consider scrambling an intercept to guard against the possibility he had some sort of terrorist intentions?


Bravo airspace is really just a traffic measure, not a security one. Areas like DC are special zones, that while also Bravos, have security implications. One result of that is that while Bravos usually extend about ~30nm from the major airport they surround, everything except the center ~10nm you can avoid by flying low enough. The Bravos are shaped kind of like upside-down wedding cakes.

The aggravating thing about this case is that the pilot could have easily flown the same route without entering the Bravo, just by flying a little bit lower. The video shows him starting at ~5900' in a zone that looks like he needs to be below ~6000' (I'm having trouble with the scale and markings on the ATC view). Then, while descending, enters an area that he should be below 4500' but is still around 5000'. He crosses the active approach path with airliners coming into McCarran at 4700' (this is when she calls out a warning to the Southwest 779), he then descends out of the Bravo shortly afterword. Based on the flight aware track it looks like he might have re-entered the Bravo a little later by cutting the very SE corner a little too tight.

I've never flown around Vegas, but I fly out of a small airport nestled underneath a Bravo regularly. While flying visually, like this guy was doing, I would never ask for a clearance for a flight like this (and they probably wouldn't grant it).  Also, I generally try to keep at least a 300' buffer to avoid accidentally crossing into the Bravo. When I do get a clearance it is because I want to avoid flying around the central core, in which case they generally have me fly directly over the major airport, perpendicular to the airliner traffic.

While the ATC could definitely have been more clear, and should have given a firm direction like "descend to below 4500' ", I'm not surprised they didn't given him a clearance, it didn't seem like he actually needed one. I suspect he will get away with this one with a slap on the wrist, the incursion was pretty minor, even if he was unapologetic. But, the FAA can 709 (https://www.aviationconsumer.com/saf​et​y/the-faa-709-checkride-protecting-you​rself/ ) ride someone for any reason, so he might have that in his future.
 
2020-06-30 12:48:32 PM  
The asshat should have been met upon landing and both his license to fly and plane seized and burned in front of him .
 
2020-06-30 12:54:22 PM  

NotCodger: The pilot wasn't following ATC directions. Are there any pilots here who could answer if this kind of refusing instructions is common? Did the tower ever consider scrambling an intercept to guard against the possibility he had some sort of terrorist intentions?


If you don't mind a student's answer... It happens but it is not common. Barring an emergency or an unsafe instruction, not complying with ATC instruction is a major no-no. Also, for class B ("Bravo") airspace such as Las Vegas', entry requires a clearance, and if you're flying under Visual Flight Rules (which it looks like this guy was doing and Approach knew that, that part is fine), it has to be explicit; you must be told by ATC in no uncertain terms that you are cleared into it. Entering it otherwise is another major no-no.

These could potentially be grounds for losing one's license if that's what actually happened. There will likely be an investigation and it's up to the FAA whether they ultimately take it (the details and aftermath might matter. It's pretty evident the pilot fouled up, and I don't think his reactions will reflect well. But finding out that you've fouled up as you're about to descend through an approach path over a major city with obstacles... I think that makes an interesting scenario, at least).

On the topic of interception, I'm not an expert on that either, but I would speculate there wasn't serious consideration for it. Based on the audio, he was talking to Approach and they already knew he was headed to Henderson, and he didn't deviate from that.
 
2020-06-30 1:18:30 PM  
Sounds like yet another asshole who thinks reality is what he says it is.
 
2020-06-30 1:24:14 PM  

Robo Beat: If the comments in TFA are correct apparently this guy is a SoCal real estate agent flying a Cessna bugsmasher registered to "WIFE APPROVED LLC." So, in other words, a humongous dick.


Yeah, that sounds about right.
 
2020-06-30 1:34:58 PM  

DON.MAC: I watched that again after seeing comments at other sites.  I still think it still looks like he flew the route as if he had a clearance.  His report of when he had clearance agrees with procedures.   Once your set up to land, that is what you do.  ATC is there to assist pilots, not control them.



The C in ATC literally stands for CONTROL. The person telling pilots what to do literally has "Controller" in their job title. (quizzical dog.jpg)
 
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