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(GSMArena)   Qualcomm rumored to hike the price of its upcoming flagship Snapdragon 875 + 5G chip by $100. 2021 Android flagship? yeah, you can't afford one   (gsmarena.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Price, Electric charge, Clock rate, Meantime, Chip, Cost, Speed, key selling point of the Snapdragon  
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388 clicks; posted to Geek » on 29 Jun 2020 at 4:53 PM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



48 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-06-29 2:25:10 PM  
People who are already dippy enough to spend $1,000 on a cellphone are likely not gonna get too riled up over an $1,100 one that's faster and has even more features.
 
2020-06-29 3:07:27 PM  
Folks who are spending $1000+ on a phone arent buying many Androids
 
2020-06-29 3:33:46 PM  
Google really needs to pull an Apple here and just have an in-house team of CPU developers. ARM is easily licenseable, chip fabs are available and it's clear that Qualcomm's engineers are pretty bad at their jobs.  Hell, maybe they could actually get a wearable CPU that's worth a damn and even try to compete in smartwatches.

Say what you will about Apple, but the AXX CPUs enable them to do all sorts of things anyone relying on Qualcomm can't.
 
2020-06-29 5:07:39 PM  

gameshowhost: People who are already dippy enough to spend $1,000 on a cellphone are likely not gonna get too riled up over an $1,100 one that's faster and has even more features.


There's very little objective difference between top end SoCs even over a two year timeframe. My LG G8 and a Samsung S20 Ultra with the same launcher are subjectively just about the same across the apps I use. I'm not going to find fault for buying faster hardware but all the big improvements now seem to come from either better software or hardware outside the SoC, usually camera or display enhancements. 5G probably qualifies but I'm not that excited about it.
 
2020-06-29 5:10:30 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Google really needs to pull an Apple here and just have an in-house team of CPU developers. ARM is easily licenseable, chip fabs are available and it's clear that Qualcomm's engineers are pretty bad at their jobs.  Hell, maybe they could actually get a wearable CPU that's worth a damn and even try to compete in smartwatches.

Say what you will about Apple, but the AXX CPUs enable them to do all sorts of things anyone relying on Qualcomm can't.


Google doesn't care though, because they make their money by selling everything they know about you to advertisers. To them it doesn't matter if you're using a flagship phone or a cheap phone, they still get your data.

At no point in Google's history has the general populace been anything but the product and spending billions to develop chips to compete does not really improve their "product".
 
2020-06-29 5:12:52 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Google really needs to pull an Apple here and just have an in-house team of CPU developers. ARM is easily licenseable, chip fabs are available and it's clear that Qualcomm's engineers are pretty bad at their jobs.  Hell, maybe they could actually get a wearable CPU that's worth a damn and even try to compete in smartwatches.

Say what you will about Apple, but the AXX CPUs enable them to do all sorts of things anyone relying on Qualcomm can't.


Google's phone division is kind of hanging by a thread though with Pixel 4 sales sucking hard and the Pixel 3a basically carrying sales on its back. Because of this likely don't want to make that kind of a huge capital investment, especially when one of their largest OEMs, Samsung, already makes their own chips so they would not be a customer for a Google-produced chip.

Not to mention Qualcomm is in tight with the US carriers, particularly Verizon. Getting a handset approved for sale is a lot easier if you have a Qualcomm chip inside, which is a why the Galaxy S and Note series all have Snapdragons in the US while their overseas counterparts typically pack Exynos chips.
 
2020-06-29 5:25:56 PM  
If you're enough of a sucker to buy a phone more than like once every 3-5 years you deserve it.

Stop buying useless shiat you dumbfarks
 
2020-06-29 5:38:22 PM  
I went the flagship route for an s10 earlier this year after years of being a pixel user. I didn't  last 30 days before I gave it to a co-worker and got a pixel again. The phone spec including the camera just don't mean fark all to me for at least the last five years. What I can't tolerate is all the competing horseshiat software trying to lock you into stuff you don't want.
 
2020-06-29 5:51:05 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: Google really needs to pull an Apple here and just have an in-house team of CPU developers. ARM is easily licenseable, chip fabs are available and it's clear that Qualcomm's engineers are pretty bad at their jobs.  Hell, maybe they could actually get a wearable CPU that's worth a damn and even try to compete in smartwatches.

Say what you will about Apple, but the AXX CPUs enable them to do all sorts of things anyone relying on Qualcomm can't.


https://www.axios.com/scoop-google-re​a​dies-its-own-chip-for-future-pixels-ch​romebooks-e5f8479e-4a38-485c-a264-9ef9​cf68908c.html
 
2020-06-29 6:31:51 PM  
Whar Pixel 4a whar
 
2020-06-29 6:49:31 PM  
Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.
 
2020-06-29 6:55:35 PM  
Maybe they will lower the prices of the phones by not including a charger or earbuds.
 
2020-06-29 7:08:52 PM  
Wait, do people game on their phone seriously enough that they need a 7 minute charge time over whatever the 865 already provides?

And does more performance actually improve mobile games at all? Or...phones...?

I've got a Galaxy S10e with the Exynos chipset, which is technically inferior to the Snapdragon 855 it could also come with in other markets.

I have yet to have a moment where I have felt the phone needed to charge faster, or one where I felt the chipset wasn't powerful enough and something was slow.

Do other people actually have these moments on modern chipsets?

/I believe I'm technically savvy
//Always pushing for more performance on the processor side for my servers
///But they're built to be used by tens of thousands of people simultaneously, not just me
 
2020-06-29 7:36:25 PM  
I simply don't replace the phone until the battery becomes ass. that was a lot less frequent a decade ago, i'd just buy a new battery and put it in the back; that original samsung rugby (& its smartphone equivalent) was badass.
My last phone lasted a little over 3 years before the battery got to borderline unacceptable (i.e. dropping from 100% to 60% within an hour of unplugging).

The only thing I can figure that keeps people replacing them so frequently is game performance or as some strange kind of status symbol.
 
2020-06-29 8:07:28 PM  
I'm writing this on an S5, so am really getting a kick...

Can we please get phones with a replaceable battery?
 
2020-06-29 8:32:20 PM  

dyhchong: Wait, do people game on their phone seriously enough that they need a 7 minute charge time over whatever the 865 already provides?

And does more performance actually improve mobile games at all? Or...phones...?

I've got a Galaxy S10e with the Exynos chipset, which is technically inferior to the Snapdragon 855 it could also come with in other markets.

I have yet to have a moment where I have felt the phone needed to charge faster, or one where I felt the chipset wasn't powerful enough and something was slow.

Do other people actually have these moments on modern chipsets?

/I believe I'm technically savvy
//Always pushing for more performance on the processor side for my servers
///But they're built to be used by tens of thousands of people simultaneously, not just me


In some parts of the world, I am told, people do not have computers. They only have a mobile phone.
So battery life, processor power become important because they do everything on it.
I have a work assigned s10e with a snapdragon chipset.
It's fine for what I need it for but I certainly wouldn't choose it as my personal phone.
 
2020-06-29 8:39:32 PM  

lolmao500: If you're enough of a sucker to buy a phone more than like once every 3-5 years you deserve it.

Stop buying useless shiat you dumbfarks


I'm at about a 3.5 year cycle.  That's basically because the battery really starts to drop off at that point.

tricycleracer: Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.


I feel the same way about MacOs.  I have a mac for work and hate it.  I do use the big ipad pro for my tablet of choice, but would use and Android if I could find one I thought was of comparable quality, Moved from iOS for mobile after the 4s.  I hate having no back button on a phone.
 
2020-06-29 9:36:49 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: In some parts of the world, I am told, people do not have computers. They only have a mobile phone.
So battery life, processor power become important because they do everything on it.
I have a work assigned s10e with a snapdragon chipset.
It's fine for what I need it for but I certainly wouldn't choose it as my personal phone.


That doesn't really answer the question. My partner discovered that when you hit more than 99 tabs on Chrome, the 99 becomes a smiley face and she doesn't really see any slowdowns, so filling it with shiat like that doesn't seem to be an issue.

And I haven't experienced any slowdowns on the internet, or running Office applications, or SSHing into several servers and things.

What specifically is "Everything" that their processor is underperforming with vs, say a Snapdragon 855? Where they find they need a faster processor?

And my question didn't regard battery life, the new chipset doesn't seem to say it's any more efficient, just clocked higher and charges faster.

For battery life I can knock out 3 days if I barely use it, or a full day if I use mine hard. Then I charge it at night.

Are they passing their phone on to the night shift? Do they not sleep? Why can't they charge their phone at night?
 
2020-06-29 10:07:32 PM  

tricycleracer: Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.


only a Linux phone is truly yours.  droid and ios are loaded with their respective company's goodies to profit off you, their captive phone user.
 
2020-06-29 10:52:05 PM  

dyhchong: Herr Flick's Revenge: In some parts of the world, I am told, people do not have computers. They only have a mobile phone.
So battery life, processor power become important because they do everything on it.
I have a work assigned s10e with a snapdragon chipset.
It's fine for what I need it for but I certainly wouldn't choose it as my personal phone.

That doesn't really answer the question. My partner discovered that when you hit more than 99 tabs on Chrome, the 99 becomes a smiley face and she doesn't really see any slowdowns, so filling it with shiat like that doesn't seem to be an issue.

And I haven't experienced any slowdowns on the internet, or running Office applications, or SSHing into several servers and things.

What specifically is "Everything" that their processor is underperforming with vs, say a Snapdragon 855? Where they find they need a faster processor?

And my question didn't regard battery life, the new chipset doesn't seem to say it's any more efficient, just clocked higher and charges faster.

For battery life I can knock out 3 days if I barely use it, or a full day if I use mine hard. Then I charge it at night.

Are they passing their phone on to the night shift? Do they not sleep? Why can't they charge their phone at night?


I have to frequently charge my phone frequently.
If you make any kind of phone calls, the battery drops.
Watch video for any amount of time, the battery drops.
Shoot video, the battery drops.
Transcode video for upload to social media, battery drops.

Just because you don't use your phone for anything that taxes the processor doesn't mean others don't.
Your usage isn't everyones.
 
2020-06-29 11:04:23 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: dyhchong: Herr Flick's Revenge: In some parts of the world, I am told, people do not have computers. They only have a mobile phone.
So battery life, processor power become important because they do everything on it.
I have a work assigned s10e with a snapdragon chipset.
It's fine for what I need it for but I certainly wouldn't choose it as my personal phone.

That doesn't really answer the question. My partner discovered that when you hit more than 99 tabs on Chrome, the 99 becomes a smiley face and she doesn't really see any slowdowns, so filling it with shiat like that doesn't seem to be an issue.

And I haven't experienced any slowdowns on the internet, or running Office applications, or SSHing into several servers and things.

What specifically is "Everything" that their processor is underperforming with vs, say a Snapdragon 855? Where they find they need a faster processor?

And my question didn't regard battery life, the new chipset doesn't seem to say it's any more efficient, just clocked higher and charges faster.

For battery life I can knock out 3 days if I barely use it, or a full day if I use mine hard. Then I charge it at night.

Are they passing their phone on to the night shift? Do they not sleep? Why can't they charge their phone at night?

I have to frequently charge my phone frequently.
If you make any kind of phone calls, the battery drops.
Watch video for any amount of time, the battery drops.
Shoot video, the battery drops.
Transcode video for upload to social media, battery drops.

Just because you don't use your phone for anything that taxes the processor doesn't mean others don't.
Your usage isn't everyones.


There's something wrong with your phone if you have an S10e and it requires charging several times a day, it's probably still under warranty unless you bought it on day 1 of release.

Just out of curiousity, how many times a day would you say you charge your phone from close to 0? What is frequently?
 
2020-06-29 11:07:59 PM  
Also just to establish, based on your last post it appears we've come off, "needing a more powerful processor" and it looks like we're just operating on "charge speed" as being a reason for the latest chipset.

Do you use a 30W charger when you do this frequent charging?

I mean, if not, the faster charging won't actually benefit your use case. Which would mean that neither the more powerful processor, nor the faster charging is actually beneficial. And as a result the new chipset wouldn't improve your usage.
 
2020-06-30 12:53:39 AM  

Linux_Yes: tricycleracer: Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.

only a Linux phone is truly yours.  droid and ios are loaded with their respective company's goodies to profit off you, their captive phone user.


I'd say the guy who spent $700 on 10-year-old hardware is the real captive...
 
2020-06-30 1:21:16 AM  

dyhchong: Also just to establish, based on your last post it appears we've come off, "needing a more powerful processor" and it looks like we're just operating on "charge speed" as being a reason for the latest chipset.

Do you use a 30W charger when you do this frequent charging?

I mean, if not, the faster charging won't actually benefit your use case. Which would mean that neither the more powerful processor, nor the faster charging is actually beneficial. And as a result the new chipset wouldn't improve your usage.


I *finally* got an Android phone that's not the least bit laggy and it has a Snapdragon 855.

The new Qualcomm offering at the premium price doubtless has better performance yet, but I won't need it.  The other thing it brings to the table is the 5G tech which, because of my usage, locale and 5G deployment/performance patterns, I don't think will benefit me much for several years at least.
 
2020-06-30 1:23:03 AM  
Ack, forgot to mention: my 2+ year old LG G6 still holds a charge at least as well as my 3 week old OnePlus 7 Pro.  Ugh.
 
2020-06-30 1:39:33 AM  

Likwit: I'd say the guy who spent $700 on 10-year-old hardware is the real captive...


But if you spend that 700 bucks today you might get it before the end of the year.
 
2020-06-30 1:46:57 AM  
100W charging.

I guess you could set your coffee cup on your phone while charging in order to keep it warm.

Might also want to charge it where there is nothing flammable nearby.
 
2020-06-30 2:49:19 AM  

madgonad: 100W charging.

I guess you could set your coffee cup on your phone while charging in order to keep it warm.

Might also want to charge it where there is nothing flammable nearby.


3.7V that's 27A. Assuming a 4Ah battery that's 6.75C.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a​r​ticle/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

The advised charge rate of an Energy Cell is between 0.5C and 1C; the complete charge time is about 2-3 hours. Manufacturers of these cells recommend charging at 0.8C or less to prolong battery life; however, most Power Cells can take a higher charge C-rate with little stress. Charge efficiency is about 99 percent and the cell remains cool during charge.

I guess with the modern trend of non-replaceable batteries, if Qualcomm can make the battery die faster, then they can sell more chips as people are forced to replace their phones.

They can then blame the phone manufacturer or user and just say 100W is its capability and you have nothing to do with the battery selection, you just make SoCs.
 
2020-06-30 7:32:40 AM  

Likwit: Linux_Yes: tricycleracer: Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.

only a Linux phone is truly yours.  droid and ios are loaded with their respective company's goodies to profit off you, their captive phone user.

I'd say the guy who spent $700 on 10-year-old hardware is the real captive...


I spent 600 early bird.

Linux doesnt need all the speedy hardware that bloatware spyware droid etc needs.

My 2008 mb w phenom ii 965 4 core combined w 4 gb ram and sata ssd screams with LM debian edition.

But u already knew that.

Linux is lean mean and secure. Without the corporate closed source spy code the others produce. Black box software.
 
2020-06-30 8:08:06 AM  

Linux_Yes: Likwit: Linux_Yes: tricycleracer: Android phones could be the equivalent of a PS3 and I'd still buy them.  iOS is so counterintuitive to me.

only a Linux phone is truly yours.  droid and ios are loaded with their respective company's goodies to profit off you, their captive phone user.

I'd say the guy who spent $700 on 10-year-old hardware is the real captive...

I spent 600 early bird.

Linux doesnt need all the speedy hardware that bloatware spyware droid etc needs.

My 2008 mb w phenom ii 965 4 core combined w 4 gb ram and sata ssd screams with LM debian edition.

But u already knew that.

Linux is lean mean and secure. Without the corporate closed source spy code the others produce. Black box software.


That's... maybe the worst argument ever.

"It's totally fine that I'm paying near-flagship prices for 10-year-old hardware because the OS is snappy anyway."

How long would it take you to trim a 4K video clip and maybe play with the color a bit?
 
2020-06-30 12:02:37 PM  

dyhchong: madgonad: 100W charging.

I guess you could set your coffee cup on your phone while charging in order to keep it warm.

Might also want to charge it where there is nothing flammable nearby.

3.7V that's 27A. Assuming a 4Ah battery that's 6.75C.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/ar​ticle/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

The advised charge rate of an Energy Cell is between 0.5C and 1C; the complete charge time is about 2-3 hours. Manufacturers of these cells recommend charging at 0.8C or less to prolong battery life; however, most Power Cells can take a higher charge C-rate with little stress. Charge efficiency is about 99 percent and the cell remains cool during charge.

I guess with the modern trend of non-replaceable batteries, if Qualcomm can make the battery die faster, then they can sell more chips as people are forced to replace their phones.

They can then blame the phone manufacturer or user and just say 100W is its capability and you have nothing to do with the battery selection, you just make SoCs.


Li Ion batteries have gotten as high as 99% efficient at ideal conditions. I suspect trying to blow 25+ amps into a battery isn't going to be ideal. Li ion batteries typically have a real world efficiency of 80-90% when charging. Lets pick 85% for this brand new, bleeding edge tech. So it will put out 15W of heat as it operates. That's pretty warm, but not burn-your-fingers hot.
 
2020-06-30 1:55:43 PM  

madgonad: dyhchong: madgonad: 100W charging.

I guess you could set your coffee cup on your phone while charging in order to keep it warm.

Might also want to charge it where there is nothing flammable nearby.

3.7V that's 27A. Assuming a 4Ah battery that's 6.75C.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/ar​ticle/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

The advised charge rate of an Energy Cell is between 0.5C and 1C; the complete charge time is about 2-3 hours. Manufacturers of these cells recommend charging at 0.8C or less to prolong battery life; however, most Power Cells can take a higher charge C-rate with little stress. Charge efficiency is about 99 percent and the cell remains cool during charge.

I guess with the modern trend of non-replaceable batteries, if Qualcomm can make the battery die faster, then they can sell more chips as people are forced to replace their phones.

They can then blame the phone manufacturer or user and just say 100W is its capability and you have nothing to do with the battery selection, you just make SoCs.

Li Ion batteries have gotten as high as 99% efficient at ideal conditions. I suspect trying to blow 25+ amps into a battery isn't going to be ideal. Li ion batteries typically have a real world efficiency of 80-90% when charging. Lets pick 85% for this brand new, bleeding edge tech. So it will put out 15W of heat as it operates. That's pretty warm, but not burn-your-fingers hot.


There are plenty of batteries that are designed to last a decade with 4C charging repeatedly throughout its life, hundreds of thousands of charges.

They're slightly more expensive, but they're there. I've used cells that can stand up to 8C charging and discharging. There's a house in the northern suburbs of Denver right now whose powerwall consists of them.

The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.
 
2020-06-30 4:38:39 PM  

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.


Is the custom shape of these new phone batteries an issue? Long, wide, and flat isn't even remotely close to those round 18650s that sit alone in flashlights and with hundreds of friends in cars.
 
2020-06-30 5:05:57 PM  

madgonad: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.

Is the custom shape of these new phone batteries an issue? Long, wide, and flat isn't even remotely close to those round 18650s that sit alone in flashlights and with hundreds of friends in cars.


It's about the chemistry, shape doesn't matter.
 
2020-06-30 6:43:02 PM  

madgonad: Li Ion batteries have gotten as high as 99% efficient at ideal conditions. I suspect trying to blow 25+ amps into a battery isn't going to be ideal. Li ion batteries typically have a real world efficiency of 80-90% when charging. Lets pick 85% for this brand new, bleeding edge tech. So it will put out 15W of heat as it operates. That's pretty warm, but not burn-your-fingers hot.


Off the bat, yes, but stick it in a crap shell and wait. Or better yet, put it in a regular shell then slap a rubber protective case on it.

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: There are plenty of batteries that are designed to last a decade with 4C charging repeatedly throughout its life, hundreds of thousands of charges.

They're slightly more expensive, but they're there. I've used cells that can stand up to 8C charging and discharging. There's a house in the northern suburbs of Denver right now whose powerwall consists of them.

The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.


8C discharging is easy, Li-Ion can manage 20-25 discharge with no drama.

Not so sure on the 8C charging, it's not that it will explode but it will degrade it's lifespan. Do you have a source for that?

Think I'll need some numbers on that powerwall and 8C charging. Lets say they have a 10KW solar system (twice the usual), and we'll use the brand name PowerWall (Tesla) at 6.4KWh. That thing is 350V. At full bore, that's 28A. With 6.4KWh at 350V that's 18Ah. Or 1.5C at full bore (charging from 0).

Do they have a 50KW solar system and a Tesla PowerWall equivalent? Or a 1KWh battery on their 10KW system?

Would you say that fast charging degrades an electric car battery faster than slow charging (this is proven, by the way)? Chademo runs at up to 80A (but usually about 30-40), lets take a Nissan Leaf for example with a 24KWh battery at 360V. Or 66Ah. On one of the smaller electric vehicle batteries where it would be most pronounced, fast charging is less than 1C.

Why aren't they using these 4 and 8C charge batteries in electric vehicles?

Higher C levels generate more heat, and HEAT is the thing that's proven to degrade the lifespan of Li-ion cells when charging.
 
2020-06-30 10:44:46 PM  

dyhchong: madgonad: Li Ion batteries have gotten as high as 99% efficient at ideal conditions. I suspect trying to blow 25+ amps into a battery isn't going to be ideal. Li ion batteries typically have a real world efficiency of 80-90% when charging. Lets pick 85% for this brand new, bleeding edge tech. So it will put out 15W of heat as it operates. That's pretty warm, but not burn-your-fingers hot.

Off the bat, yes, but stick it in a crap shell and wait. Or better yet, put it in a regular shell then slap a rubber protective case on it.

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: There are plenty of batteries that are designed to last a decade with 4C charging repeatedly throughout its life, hundreds of thousands of charges.

They're slightly more expensive, but they're there. I've used cells that can stand up to 8C charging and discharging. There's a house in the northern suburbs of Denver right now whose powerwall consists of them.

The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.

8C discharging is easy, Li-Ion can manage 20-25 discharge with no drama.

Not so sure on the 8C charging, it's not that it will explode but it will degrade it's lifespan. Do you have a source for that?

Think I'll need some numbers on that powerwall and 8C charging. Lets say they have a 10KW solar system (twice the usual), and we'll use the brand name PowerWall (Tesla) at 6.4KWh. That thing is 350V. At full bore, that's 28A. With 6.4KWh at 350V that's 18Ah. Or 1.5C at full bore (charging from 0).

Do they have a 50KW solar system and a Tesla PowerWall equivalent? Or a 1KWh battery on their 10KW system?

Would you say that fast charging degrades an electric car battery faster than slow charging (this is proven, by the way)? Chademo runs at up to 80A (but usually about 30-40), lets take a Nissan Leaf for example with a 24KWh battery at 360V. Or 66Ah. On one of the smaller electric vehicle batteries where it would be most pronounced, fast charging is less than 1C.

Why aren't they using these 4 and 8C charge batteries in electric vehicles?

Higher C levels generate more heat, and HEAT is the thing that's proven to degrade the lifespan of Li-ion cells when charging.


They ARE using these cells in electric vehicles. Electric mass transit vehicles.
 
2020-06-30 11:18:00 PM  

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: They ARE using these cells in electric vehicles. Electric mass transit vehicles.


Source? Also do you have those numbers on the power wall house you were talking about? Because it sounds very unlikely that they could hit 8C charging unless it's just the absolute worst implementation ever.
 
2020-06-30 11:29:53 PM  

dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: They ARE using these cells in electric vehicles. Electric mass transit vehicles.

Source? Also do you have those numbers on the power wall house you were talking about? Because it sounds very unlikely that they could hit 8C charging unless it's just the absolute worst implementation ever.


SPIM08HP cells, dude, you can buy them from many sources.
 
2020-06-30 11:39:23 PM  

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: They ARE using these cells in electric vehicles. Electric mass transit vehicles.

Source? Also do you have those numbers on the power wall house you were talking about? Because it sounds very unlikely that they could hit 8C charging unless it's just the absolute worst implementation ever.

SPIM08HP cells, dude, you can buy them from many sources.


I've done a cursory Google but can't find anything where it says it'll take 8C without suffering advanced degradation. In fact there are no datasheets for those anywhere that I can see. Those are quite possibly the dodgiest batteries I've ever seen.

Anyway, have you got a source that details that they'll take 8C without degradation? I can see that they're specified with a maximum input of 10C, but nothing to say that it won't harm the battery putting that in continuously.
 
2020-06-30 11:44:23 PM  
I also can't find anything that says they're currently being used in electric mass transit vehicles.

I've found the AKASOL batteries that are used for that purpose, but they reckon 1-2C charging max:
https://www.akasol.com/en/news-akasol​-​battery-show-2019-na
https://www.akasol.com/en/news-akasol​-​uitp-2019
 
2020-07-01 12:00:39 AM  
A 40 kWh Nissan Leaf battery can be charged from flat to 100% in 50 minutes with their fastest charger.  What does that work out to in "C" ?
 
2020-07-01 12:08:09 AM  

SansNeural: A 40 kWh Nissan Leaf battery can be charged from flat to 100% in 50 minutes with their fastest charger.  What does that work out to in "C" ?


Like 1.2.

1C, simplified, is basically it's current capacity in one hour. So if you know the time component it's actually much easier.

So 1C is charged from 0-100% in 1hour (1Ah charged at 1A will take 1 hour). So 50 minutes would be 1 / (50/60).

You could also get to this figure by dividing the Wh capacity by it's voltage, and in the W input by it's voltage, then dividing the Ah by the A.

So pretending it's 400V, 40KWh (40,000) / 400V would mean 1C is 100A. 2C = 200A. If you had a 50KW charger also at 400V, then 50,000 / 400 = 125A. Or 1.25C if those voltage numbers were correct.
 
2020-07-01 12:10:13 AM  

dyhchong: SansNeural: A 40 kWh Nissan Leaf battery can be charged from flat to 100% in 50 minutes with their fastest charger.  What does that work out to in "C" ?

Like 1.2.

1C, simplified, is basically it's current capacity in one hour. So if you know the time component it's actually much easier.

So 1C is charged from 0-100% in 1hour (1Ah charged at 1A will take 1 hour). So 50 minutes would be 1 / (50/60).

You could also get to this figure by dividing the Wh capacity by it's voltage, and in the W input by it's voltage, then dividing the Ah by the A.

So pretending it's 400V, 40KWh (40,000) / 400V would mean 1C is 100A. 2C = 200A. If you had a 50KW charger also at 400V, then 50,000 / 400 = 125A. Or 1.25C if those voltage numbers were correct.


Pretty close, I think their pack is 360 V.  Thanks for the explainment.
 
2020-07-01 12:23:55 AM  

SansNeural: dyhchong: SansNeural: A 40 kWh Nissan Leaf battery can be charged from flat to 100% in 50 minutes with their fastest charger.  What does that work out to in "C" ?

Like 1.2.

1C, simplified, is basically it's current capacity in one hour. So if you know the time component it's actually much easier.

So 1C is charged from 0-100% in 1hour (1Ah charged at 1A will take 1 hour). So 50 minutes would be 1 / (50/60).

You could also get to this figure by dividing the Wh capacity by it's voltage, and in the W input by it's voltage, then dividing the Ah by the A.

So pretending it's 400V, 40KWh (40,000) / 400V would mean 1C is 100A. 2C = 200A. If you had a 50KW charger also at 400V, then 50,000 / 400 = 125A. Or 1.25C if those voltage numbers were correct.

Pretty close, I think their pack is 360 V.  Thanks for the explainment.


Yeah, so 8C would be charging that Leaf from 0-100% in 7.5 minutes. And because it's a value that ignores voltage, it can be applied to anything. Tesla with it's 100KWh battery? 8C, fully charged from 0 in 7.5 minutes.

1C is considered "Fast Charging" for that Leaf. For a Tesla with an 80KWh battery (assuming the same voltage), the same input is actually 0.5C and it's still fast charging.

Slow charging for an EV is 1/20 of that and recommended to preserve battery life.
 
2020-07-01 12:39:10 AM  

dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: They ARE using these cells in electric vehicles. Electric mass transit vehicles.

Source? Also do you have those numbers on the power wall house you were talking about? Because it sounds very unlikely that they could hit 8C charging unless it's just the absolute worst implementation ever.

SPIM08HP cells, dude, you can buy them from many sources.

I've done a cursory Google but can't find anything where it says it'll take 8C without suffering advanced degradation. In fact there are no datasheets for those anywhere that I can see. Those are quite possibly the dodgiest batteries I've ever seen.

Anyway, have you got a source that details that they'll take 8C without degradation? I can see that they're specified with a maximum input of 10C, but nothing to say that it won't harm the battery putting that in continuously.


If you can't pull down IPC specs you're hardly an authority.

The fact you don't understand why I can't post them here pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about.

8C charging is not a problem for SPIM08HP cells, there are MANY LiFePO4 cells on the market that stand up to 8C charging just fine. A cursory Google search is all it takes to see that.
 
2020-07-01 12:53:38 AM  

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: If you can't pull down IPC specs you're hardly an authority.

The fact you don't understand why I can't post them here pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about.

8C charging is not a problem for SPIM08HP cells, there are MANY LiFePO4 cells on the market that stand up to 8C charging just fine. A cursory Google search is all it takes to see that.


Lol, so you're just going to make wild claims and not back anything up and roll with, "this information is top secret and classified even though you can buy them on eBay and AliExpress". That AKASOL battery above was claiming it's industry leading, at 1C-2C.

Why not just your magic cells? They don't degrade. Tesla, everyone should be using them. I would love to charge my EV in 8 minutes.

Hell, 8 minute EV charging would basically kill petrol vehicles, because it's a stretch to go from filling a tank in 5 minutes to charging away from home in a hour, but 8 minute charging would convert a massive bulk.

8C without degradation would be the holy grail and EVERYONE would be using them. And they wouldn't exist only in hobby circles, sold only on eBay and AliExpress and offer no datasheets and yet be classed as the "best bang for buck battery right now". And even the eBay listings say for the 8Ah battery, Max charge current 80A under normal temperatures because they themselves recognise that heat degrades batteries on charge.

Cycle life
2000 cycles to 80% with 100% DOD
under normal temperature

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/42-SPIM08HP-3​-​7V-8AH-LITHIUM-ION-BATTERIES-25C-200A-​SUPER-CELLS-POWERWALL-EBIKE/2025082105​97

You should email those AKASOL guys and tell them to shove it, they're out of date. These unbranded AliExpress batteries will charge 4 times faster than their best. Or hell, start your own bus battery company and make packs using them.
 
2020-07-01 1:23:31 AM  

dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: If you can't pull down IPC specs you're hardly an authority.

The fact you don't understand why I can't post them here pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about.

8C charging is not a problem for SPIM08HP cells, there are MANY LiFePO4 cells on the market that stand up to 8C charging just fine. A cursory Google search is all it takes to see that.

Lol, so you're just going to make wild claims and not back anything up and roll with, "this information is top secret and classified even though you can buy them on eBay and AliExpress". That AKASOL battery above was claiming it's industry leading, at 1C-2C.

Why not just your magic cells? They don't degrade. Tesla, everyone should be using them. I would love to charge my EV in 8 minutes.

Hell, 8 minute EV charging would basically kill petrol vehicles, because it's a stretch to go from filling a tank in 5 minutes to charging away from home in a hour, but 8 minute charging would convert a massive bulk.

8C without degradation would be the holy grail and EVERYONE would be using them. And they wouldn't exist only in hobby circles, sold only on eBay and AliExpress and offer no datasheets and yet be classed as the "best bang for buck battery right now". And even the eBay listings say for the 8Ah battery, Max charge current 80A under normal temperatures because they themselves recognise that heat degrades batteries on charge.

Cycle life
2000 cycles to 80% with 100% DOD
under normal temperature

https://www.ebay.ph/itm/42-SPIM08HP-3-​7V-8AH-LITHIUM-ION-BATTERIES-25C-200A-​SUPER-CELLS-POWERWALL-EBIKE/2025082105​97

You should email those AKASOL guys and tell them to shove it, they're out of date. These unbranded AliExpress batteries will charge 4 times faster than their best. Or hell, start your own bus battery company and make packs using them.


You just described 10C charging for the battery you listed to claim that my assertion that 8C charging batteries are bullshiat....
 
2020-07-01 1:31:36 AM  

Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: You just described 10C charging for the battery you listed to claim that my assertion that 8C charging batteries are bullshiat....


Lol, are you serious?

Do you actually know what this conversation is about?

Here, I'll quote my original reply to you on this topic:

dyhchong: Inebriated Bolshevik Muppet: There are plenty of batteries that are designed to last a decade with 4C charging repeatedly throughout its life, hundreds of thousands of charges.

They're slightly more expensive, but they're there. I've used cells that can stand up to 8C charging and discharging. There's a house in the northern suburbs of Denver right now whose powerwall consists of them.

The point is, those numbers are for run-of-the-mill 18650s.

If industry decides it wants 4C or even 8C cells for phones, someone will step up and make them.


8C discharging is easy, Li-Ion can manage 20-25 discharge with no drama.

Not so sure on the 8C charging, it's not that it will explode but it will degrade it's lifespan. Do you have a source for that?


DEGRADING LIFESPAN, not incapability you moron.

And the original thing that you replied to, was me saying Qualcomm can rock out any output they want for charging, they just make SoCs, and if it degrades the battery faster, they'll just sell more SoCs because of the modern trend to seal up phone batteries and the fact that they themselves are uninvolved in the actual battery selection. The phone manufacturer's will get the blame, the customers will have to buy a new phone and Qualcomm gets another chip sale.
 
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