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(Independent)   UBI to be tried on a slightly larger scale   (independent.co.uk) divider line
    More: Interesting, Basic income, Minimum wage, Guaranteed minimum income, creation of a national minimum income, Income, Deputy Prime Minister Pablo Iglesias, Socialism, government spokesperson  
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3166 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2020 at 8:45 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-27 1:02:15 AM  
I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.
 
2020-06-27 5:52:42 AM  
Good dog.
 
2020-06-27 8:47:49 AM  
Nope, not UBI. But don't let that stop the incoming jerk.
 
2020-06-27 8:54:17 AM  

Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.


But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!
 
2020-06-27 8:54:50 AM  

js34603: Nope, not UBI. But don't let that stop the incoming jerk.


Yeah. TFA is badly written, but it sounds like a really, really badly designed welfare system.
 
2020-06-27 8:55:59 AM  

Jaws_Victim: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!


Trump's not black.
 
2020-06-27 8:59:57 AM  

thatboyoverthere: Jaws_Victim: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!

Trump's not black.


He's living in public housing.
 
2020-06-27 9:04:54 AM  

Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run.


Careful with that - the U.K. attempted an idea of consolidating all of the various welfare schemes into a single programme called "Universal Credit" and results have been mixed at best.

We shouldn't think of UBI as a replacement to entitlement programmes, as it's purpose target recipients are both quite different. Even with UBI, you're probably going to still need disability and/or Medicaid.
 
2020-06-27 9:08:43 AM  
Apparently this is a "socialist" pandemic - by the time it's over there may be UBI, M4A - or at least a public option that gets the gov't wholly into The Game, expanded access to the ballot box, and police reforms. 25 years of debating and suggesting these ideas and nothing but static in the USA about socialist bogeymen. It's all being exposed as a deep fraud - not that many weren't already aware.
 
2020-06-27 9:22:03 AM  

notmyjab: thatboyoverthere: Jaws_Victim: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!

Trump's not black.

He's living in public housing.


He certainly sounds like "those people" Republicans complain about:

Person of color (Radioactive orange)
Lives in public housing
Doesn't pay his bills
5 children with 3 women - cheated on all of them
Declared bankruptcy 6 times
Has been sued thousands of times
Has had to close down multiple "businesses" due to illegal activity
 
2020-06-27 9:30:32 AM  
We could end poverty in america if we wanted to.
 
2020-06-27 9:35:46 AM  
It sounds like they're just doing no questions asked welfare, as opposed to true UBI. It'll save them money (we waste something like 1/3 of the welfare fund on enforcement), and ensure more people get it (since that money then goes to people instead of enforcement agents), so it's probably an improvement over what it replaced, but that is most definitely not UBI.

UBI works like this:
1. If you have a pulse, you get a check for x$/month, enough to live on without going into poverty. Work if you want more. ($1000 is the most common number currently being thrown around in the US, but the number is up for debate.)
2. You get that check, period. It does not degrade if you have an income, and it is contingent on absolutely nothing besides being alive. You tell the government what you're using for a primary checking account, and the money lands there on the 1st of the month. Period.
3. UBI is of course always paired with socialized medicine, as it otherwise can't perform its purpose of making sure no one is impoverished. (If getting sick bankrupts you, you are, obviously, not protected from poverty.)
 
2020-06-27 9:42:21 AM  

chewd: We could end poverty in america if we wanted to.


A War on Poverty doesn't have the zazz you want on the nightly news, and it ends up saving brown and black people instead of killing them.  Where's the fun in that?

But a land war in Asia, that's where the ratings are.  Plus, shooting wars actually make money for select patriotic industries, so they're good economically.  I don't know why we haven't pulled the trigger yet on one of those sandy/oily countries yet.
 
2020-06-27 9:53:44 AM  

trerro: It sounds like they're just doing no questions asked welfare, as opposed to true UBI.


I didn't see anything about "no questions asked." It sounds like they are asking plenty of questions.

Or, in other words, it's functionally a UBI paired with 100% tax on low incomes, and all of the overhead costs of traditional welfare.

TFA is pretty terrible, though, so who knows?
 
2020-06-27 9:56:14 AM  

Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.


Way I understood it will work is it would be an absolute minimum living wage. IOW think around 2k a month for everyone the moment you hit 16 until the day you die. It would be just enough per person to rent a room and get minimal groceries to survive. Anything funded by government EI, Pension, Disability would all be merged.

Ontario was trying it out unfortunately Ford canned it before it was supposed to finish but the people who were on it were current Welfare recipients. The big change was their check was a smidge higher and they didn't have to pay back any of it if they did get any other income which on Welfare and EI they would have to. Results were questionable since it was canceled early, there wasn't an increase in people going out and getting work but people reported to be a bit happier and less stressed which in theory should alleviate mental health. I vaguely recall some reported actually were able to start taking courses as they were able to use the extra money to cover daycare but I could be mixing up that with another experiment.

I think I mentioned before but friend's spouse was on the Canadian Privy Council and was involved in initial investigations into UI. Pretty much most countries acknowledge it's going to happen everywhere at some point in the next century and it is a big thing to stay in front of. Every single western country is investigating it and how to implement.
 
2020-06-27 10:05:56 AM  
Facepalm.

UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".  I know it's not exactly a one to one comparison, but at it's core, that's what we're talking about here.  It's not going to work, it never has worked, it never will work no matter how many times this gets tried.  And it seems to get tried once every 50 to 100 years or so, whenever there's some social upheaval because of wars or revolutions or whatnot, only to end in utter failure and have capitalism come back to make things right again.

I'm not saying rich people shouldn't pay a HELL of a lot more in taxes, I'm not saying essential services that have no business making a profit like education and **HEALTHCARE** shouldn't be socialized, I'm saying giving people free money out of thin air in non crisis times will only lead to a devaluing of that money, (also called inflation), which puts you right back where you started: no better off than before.

It. Does. Not. Work.  Takes a goddam first year economics class.  For farks sake.
 
2020-06-27 10:07:13 AM  

mudesi: UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".


If you think that then you dont know what communism is.
 
2020-06-27 10:15:29 AM  
The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances
 
2020-06-27 10:16:03 AM  
that's pretty much a guarantee that the US will never adopt it.  The US doesn't need carefully considered policy, we just need to america harder.
 
2020-06-27 10:16:16 AM  

Aquapope: chewd: We could end poverty in america if we wanted to.

A War on Poverty doesn't have the zazz you want on the nightly news, and it ends up saving brown and black people instead of killing them.  Where's the fun in that?

But a land war in Asia, that's where the ratings are.  Plus, shooting wars actually make money for select patriotic industries, so they're good economically.  I don't know why we haven't pulled the trigger yet on one of those sandy/oily countries yet.


I think you misunderstood.

The real war on poverty will be won when they have killed the poors or at least beaten them into submission.
 
2020-06-27 10:22:00 AM  

thealgorerhythm: Aquapope: chewd: We could end poverty in america if we wanted to.

A War on Poverty doesn't have the zazz you want on the nightly news, and it ends up saving brown and black people instead of killing them.  Where's the fun in that?

But a land war in Asia, that's where the ratings are.  Plus, shooting wars actually make money for select patriotic industries, so they're good economically.  I don't know why we haven't pulled the trigger yet on one of those sandy/oily countries yet.

I think you misunderstood.

The real war on poverty will be won when they have killed the poors or at least beaten them into submission.


The squeaky wheel gets the lash, until it learns to not squeak.  I get that.  But a land war in Asia can be used to siphon off our young brown and black folks to the front lines.  And since somebody with the military expertise of Jared Kushner will be put in charge, those folks won't be coming back.  Ta Daaaa, no more poverty or crime.

// sarcasm.  Though I do know a person who thinks like that.
 
2020-06-27 10:24:04 AM  

hissatsu: notmyjab: thatboyoverthere: Jaws_Victim: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!

Trump's not black.

He's living in public housing.

He certainly sounds like "those people" Republicans complain about:

Person of color (Radioactive orange)
Lives in public housing
Doesn't pay his bills
5 children with 3 women - cheated on all of them
Declared bankruptcy 6 times
Has been sued thousands of times
Has had to close down multiple "businesses" due to illegal activity


"Can you believe they call me The First Black President??" ~DJT~ (believe it or not, it's an actual quote)

....given the previous iteration of a popular rundown of Trump's personal resume, there are many who would look at that summary and say, "yes - yes I can believe that"
 
2020-06-27 10:29:19 AM  
Semper ubi sub ubi.
My motto
 
2020-06-27 10:30:29 AM  

mudesi: Facepalm.

UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".  I know it's not exactly a one to one comparison, but at it's core, that's what we're talking about here.  It's not going to work, it never has worked, it never will work no matter how many times this gets tried.  And it seems to get tried once every 50 to 100 years or so, whenever there's some social upheaval because of wars or revolutions or whatnot, only to end in utter failure and have capitalism come back to make things right again.

I'm not saying rich people shouldn't pay a HELL of a lot more in taxes, I'm not saying essential services that have no business making a profit like education and **HEALTHCARE** shouldn't be socialized, I'm saying giving people free money out of thin air in non crisis times will only lead to a devaluing of that money, (also called inflation), which puts you right back where you started: no better off than before.

It. Does. Not. Work.  Takes a goddam first year economics class.  For farks sake.


Why don't you take a modern economics class? UBI coupled with universal healthcare absolutely can and does work, if supported. You live in an economy that is 70% consumer spending.Couple the UBI with a harmonized goods & services consumption tax, etc., and it's a built in support for a stable economy.

I don't know about you, but I know alot of humans who would be very productive with an arrangement like that now that the 'gig economy' is very real, nowadays.
 
2020-06-27 10:35:46 AM  

Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.


UBI, social credit, or public dividend or whatever you want to call it, is a great idea.  BTW, if done typically everyone gets it - even if you are a millionaire or billionaire.  Poor people can use it for food.  Rich people can us throw it on the pile.  This will allow them to not biatch and whine about it (as much).

An important element of UBI is that you are not penalized if you work or make more money.  You keep 100% of it.  It is important to take that out of the equation and remove the bureaucracy associated with eligibility.   You are 18?  You get it.  Period.  Full stop.  You can even have the IRS run it because it is so straight forward.  It is basically a monthly refundable tax credit.

/increase rich people taxes to offset this money they will be getting.
 
2020-06-27 10:39:41 AM  

chewd: mudesi: UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".

If you think that then you dont know what communism is.


And I think you didn't read the very next sentence I wrote.

It's not communism exactly, but its effects and end result are the same.  Whenever they do small scale trials of UBI, it always works precisely because they're small scale trials.  UBI implemented on the economy as a whole will drive up agregate demand without a corresponding increase in aggregate supply, leading to massive inflation.  You make 1000 bucks more a month, but everything goes up in price and that 1000 bucks doesn't help you anymore.

Honestly this is basic, first year economics shiat.  Not even.  You learn this shiat in farking highschool economics.  I know everyone yearns to be a goddamn idiot in this society of ours and proudly proclaim it like it's some kind of badge of honor, but I still have some hope that maybe the rational people out there can still win out over the mindless cacophony that seems to be drowning out the whole farking world lately.
 
2020-06-27 10:43:41 AM  

mudesi: Facepalm.

UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".  I know it's not exactly a one to one comparison, but at it's core, that's what we're talking about here.  It's not going to work, it never has worked, it never will work no matter how many times this gets tried.  And it seems to get tried once every 50 to 100 years or so, whenever there's some social upheaval because of wars or revolutions or whatnot, only to end in utter failure and have capitalism come back to make things right again.

I'm not saying rich people shouldn't pay a HELL of a lot more in taxes, I'm not saying essential services that have no business making a profit like education and **HEALTHCARE** shouldn't be socialized, I'm saying giving people free money out of thin air in non crisis times will only lead to a devaluing of that money, (also called inflation), which puts you right back where you started: no better off than before.

It. Does. Not. Work.  Takes a goddam first year economics class.  For farks sake.


Lots of false assumptions and logic here:
1) you already give people free money
2) not communism, this is actually a small government solution which reduces the role of government in people's lives (should be championed by Republicans because government does not pick winners and losers)
3) Think of a refundable tax credit (Republicans should like that too)
4) actual pilots have been done on UBI (two big ones in Canada but many others) and it actually works.  You might want to look at those pilots
5) Conservatives/Republicans currently support a social assistance regime that penalizes people for working - how does that make sense?
6) you currently pay for a myriad of social assistance programs - and that does not affect inflation.  Inflation is as low as f$ck.  Even if it did go up a bit - it would not be the end of the world.  Also, if 1% have 50% of the wealth, a little bit of devaluation would not be bad either.
 
2020-06-27 10:45:31 AM  

mrshowrules: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

UBI, social credit, or public dividend or whatever you want to call it, is a great idea.  BTW, if done typically everyone gets it - even if you are a millionaire or billionaire.  Poor people can use it for food.  Rich people can us throw it on the pile.  This will allow them to not biatch and whine about it (as much).

An important element of UBI is that you are not penalized if you work or make more money.  You keep 100% of it.  It is important to take that out of the equation and remove the bureaucracy associated with eligibility.   You are 18?  You get it.  Period.  Full stop.  You can even have the IRS run it because it is so straight forward.  It is basically a monthly refundable tax credit.

/increase rich people taxes to offset this money they will be getting.


There are no so called modern economics classes that push UBI in any way, shape, or form, other than to say that it won't work, ever.  There's nothing in any macroeconomic theory that even remotely leads to any form of UBI resulting in nothing other than utter economic disaster.  For reals.
 
2020-06-27 10:48:10 AM  

ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances


You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.
 
2020-06-27 10:53:51 AM  

mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances

You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.


The Spanish government and thinking don't generally go together...
 
2020-06-27 10:55:03 AM  

mudesi: Facepalm.


Firstly, UBI is not communism.  It's not even close, and that you think it is shows us how much you've thought about this.

Secondly, your prediction is ludicrous, because we all remember just how many farking robots and AI programs there were a hundred years ago doing tasks complex enough only people could do them.

Thirdly, we revamp our society to provide a basic lifestyle to every one, or we get Mad Max.  That seems like a pretty big jump, but it's the logical conclusion of millions and millions of people being unemployed due to automation.  Those people still need food and shelter.  With enough desperation if you can't buy it, you'll take it.  With food and shelter, it doesn't take that long to get to that kind of desperation.
 
2020-06-27 10:57:46 AM  

mudesi: mrshowrules: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

UBI, social credit, or public dividend or whatever you want to call it, is a great idea.  BTW, if done typically everyone gets it - even if you are a millionaire or billionaire.  Poor people can use it for food.  Rich people can us throw it on the pile.  This will allow them to not biatch and whine about it (as much).

An important element of UBI is that you are not penalized if you work or make more money.  You keep 100% of it.  It is important to take that out of the equation and remove the bureaucracy associated with eligibility.   You are 18?  You get it.  Period.  Full stop.  You can even have the IRS run it because it is so straight forward.  It is basically a monthly refundable tax credit.

/increase rich people taxes to offset this money they will be getting.

There are no so called modern economics classes that push UBI in any way, shape, or form, other than to say that it won't work, ever.  There's nothing in any macroeconomic theory that even remotely leads to any form of UBI resulting in nothing other than utter economic disaster.  For reals.


I'm sorry but what you just posted is complete and utter bullshiat.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francesco​ppola/2017/08/31/top-economists-endors​e-universal-basic-income/#4873031815ae

Many economists believe that UBI is a perfectly viable solution.  I don't think you understand what UBI is and at minimum, you seem to have no clue that there has been actual pilots of it and the findings were quite positive.
 
2020-06-27 11:03:58 AM  

ColonelCathcart: mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances

You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.

The Spanish government and thinking don't generally go together...


That's a low blow and really offers nothing in terms of a valid criticism of UBI.  Sometimes good ideas arise from countries that have problems.  Portugal's economy was on the verge of collapse when they came up with the f$cked up idea of treating drug use as a health problem instead of a crime.  Now the entire world looks to them as a success story in that area.

Just like States are the crucibles of democracy in the US so are the EU countries in Europe.
 
2020-06-27 11:07:28 AM  

Sarien: Firstly, UBI is not communism.  It's not even close, and that you think it is shows us how much you've thought about this.


This.

Group A gets $800 a month in social insurance.  Group B gets 1,200 a month in unemployment insurance but gets penalized if they work.

Hey, let's give both groups $1,000 a month and not penalize them if they work.

NO, THAT'S COMMUNISM!
 
2020-06-27 11:08:59 AM  

Shaggy_C: Careful with that - the U.K. attempted an idea of consolidating all of the various welfare schemes into a single programme called "Universal Credit" and results have been mixed at best.


And Universal Credit has nothing to do with UBI. Or rather, it has the same amount to do with UBI as a small Czechoslovakian traffic warden has to do with marmoset breeding patterns. You clod.
 
2020-06-27 11:09:22 AM  
As much as I believe in the idea of UBI, US should really focus their ass on universal health care first.  Baby steps.  Something like UBI is for advanced democracies only.
 
2020-06-27 11:12:11 AM  

Jaws_Victim: Any Pie Left: I think some kind of UBI is inevitable; it would supplant all the other social welfare programs and unemployment, so your needs are more one-stop-shopped. No more patchwork of programs might mean cost savings in the long run. Work, or don't work. It won't be enough to live like a millionaire. But you won't starve and you won't go without medical care and you won't be homeless. But if you work and you make more than the UBI, you can bank the UBI payments, or some percentage of them, tax-free, into personal investments, and build a higher standard of living than the basic.

But what about scammers and welfare queens and black people who don't deserve it???!!


You mean the corporate tax breaks, oil and gas leases on federal land, and the CSA flag waving trailer trash dressed up in blackface?

Fark 'em
 
2020-06-27 11:16:03 AM  

RasIanI: mudesi: Facepalm.

UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".  I know it's not exactly a one to one comparison, but at it's core, that's what we're talking about here.  It's not going to work, it never has worked, it never will work no matter how many times this gets tried.  And it seems to get tried once every 50 to 100 years or so, whenever there's some social upheaval because of wars or revolutions or whatnot, only to end in utter failure and have capitalism come back to make things right again.

I'm not saying rich people shouldn't pay a HELL of a lot more in taxes, I'm not saying essential services that have no business making a profit like education and **HEALTHCARE** shouldn't be socialized, I'm saying giving people free money out of thin air in non crisis times will only lead to a devaluing of that money, (also called inflation), which puts you right back where you started: no better off than before.

It. Does. Not. Work.  Takes a goddam first year economics class.  For farks sake.

Why don't you take a modern economics class? UBI coupled with universal healthcare absolutely can and does work, if supported. You live in an economy that is 70% consumer spending.Couple the UBI with a harmonized goods & services consumption tax, etc., and it's a built in support for a stable economy.

I don't know about you, but I know alot of humans who would be very productive with an arrangement like that now that the 'gig economy' is very real, nowadays.


This
Person I know has a doctorate in Economics from Berkeley. The biggest complaint is people who take an econ class or watch a YouTube videoavideo think it is all black white and so simple. Theres a reason postgraduate degrees exist
 
2020-06-27 11:41:16 AM  

mudesi: chewd: mudesi: UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".

If you think that then you dont know what communism is.

And I think you didn't read the very next sentence I wrote.

It's not communism exactly, but its effects and end result are the same.  Whenever they do small scale trials of UBI, it always works precisely because they're small scale trials.  UBI implemented on the economy as a whole will drive up agregate demand without a corresponding increase in aggregate supply, leading to massive inflation.  You make 1000 bucks more a month, but everything goes up in price and that 1000 bucks doesn't help you anymore.

Honestly this is basic, first year economics shiat.  Not even.  You learn this shiat in farking highschool economics.  I know everyone yearns to be a goddamn idiot in this society of ours and proudly proclaim it like it's some kind of badge of honor, but I still have some hope that maybe the rational people out there can still win out over the mindless cacophony that seems to be drowning out the whole farking world lately.


You're right. Supply never rises to meet demand. That's why we are still all sharing the first generation iphones and they keep getting more and more expensive.

That first year econ course you keep flogging covers supply and demand almost immediately. It seems you may have dozed off for part of that explanation.

What you are doing is trying to promote supply side economics without saying so in the hopes some people aren't paying attention and believe your bullshiat.

Supply side economics fails at everything other than making already wealthy people more wealthy. Demand drives everything and a UBI increases demand.

Right now we only have a vague notion of what demand actually is in the economy because we keep limiting demand with idiotic trickle down bullshiat.

UBI with universal healthcare, and cheap/free college, is the ultimate pro-labor combo. Because it means no one will have to to work to live. That means it's relatively painless to quit a shiatty job, to leave one career and retrain for another, to stop working for a bit and raise your kids, to start your own business, to serve your community, or to be an artist.

It's also good for capital as that combination gets them out of healthcare and retirement as parts of a benefits package, eliminates the need for a minimum wage, and gives them a labor force that wants to work for them rather than needs to.

The costs for capital will be increased taxes to help pay for the combo. Wages will go up for some businesses and down for others, the ones with toxic environments will find they'll have to offer more to get people to put up with them. Fun places or start-ups with a passionate following could have people working for free.

This last bit is what terrifies the wealthy, they've made their billions on the backs of a thoroughly cowed labor force, running on a model of unsustainable growth fueled by squeezing the the working class for every penny they can get, then raiding the treasury for bailouts when something goes wrong.

UBI, health care, and cheap education is a sustainable economic foundation. Because even if we have a financial crisis there's no reason to panic or bail anyone out. We can let businesses succeed or fail on their merits knowing no one will go hungry or homeless for lack of a job. We may need to still protect or support certain things like food production or national defense industries but for the most part it will be up to businesses to drum up demand for what they offer.
 
2020-06-27 11:43:12 AM  

ColonelCathcart: mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances

You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.

The Spanish government and thinking don't generally go together...


Are you an American?  Because if so, you should probably shiat your mouth about other countries government.  It's like your neck deep in sewage laughing at another person for standing in a puddle of water.
 
2020-06-27 11:59:19 AM  

mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances

You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.

The Spanish government and thinking don't generally go together...

That's a low blow and really offers nothing in terms of a valid criticism of UBI.  Sometimes good ideas arise from countries that have problems.  Portugal's economy was on the verge of collapse when they came up with the f$cked up idea of treating drug use as a health problem instead of a crime.  Now the entire world looks to them as a success story in that area.

Just like States are the crucibles of democracy in the US so are the EU countries in Europe.


My only criticism of UBI is doing at anything less than a Single-Market level. I actually believe in UBI, but the tax system to redistribute the money back around and economy has to not bleed its money (trade deficit) to do it.

Right now, the only country that can do UBI is China or a petro-state (many of them do already).

Every other country will just accelerate inflation, budgetary collapse from the influx of people to take advantage of it, and more money leaving their country as people spend their money on foreign-made products.
 
2020-06-27 12:00:47 PM  

webron: ColonelCathcart: mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: The sound you hear is every single dead beat EU citizen moving to Spain to get residency/citizenship and live on the beach in Valencia.

/UBI won't work unless we *all* do it within an economic group
//the entire EU has to do this
/3 otherwise you create systemic financial imbalances

You don't think they thought of that?  It would not be complicated to have a 3 year or 5 year residency requirement.  Secondly, you know what is more expensive than social assistance?  Poverty.  An economy has never collapsed because not enough people were poor.

The Spanish government and thinking don't generally go together...

Are you an American?  Because if so, you should probably shiat your mouth about other countries government.  It's like your neck deep in sewage laughing at another person for standing in a puddle of water.


Other than COVID response, the Spanish Government has been the paragon of incompetence and consistently flipping between left and right without any meaningful change.
 
2020-06-27 12:03:25 PM  

Boudyro: mudesi: chewd: mudesi: UBI is just a fancy name for something that's already been tried and failed.  Also known as "communism".

If you think that then you dont know what communism is.

And I think you didn't read the very next sentence I wrote.

It's not communism exactly, but its effects and end result are the same.  Whenever they do small scale trials of UBI, it always works precisely because they're small scale trials.  UBI implemented on the economy as a whole will drive up agregate demand without a corresponding increase in aggregate supply, leading to massive inflation.  You make 1000 bucks more a month, but everything goes up in price and that 1000 bucks doesn't help you anymore.

Honestly this is basic, first year economics shiat.  Not even.  You learn this shiat in farking highschool economics.  I know everyone yearns to be a goddamn idiot in this society of ours and proudly proclaim it like it's some kind of badge of honor, but I still have some hope that maybe the rational people out there can still win out over the mindless cacophony that seems to be drowning out the whole farking world lately.

You're right. Supply never rises to meet demand. That's why we are still all sharing the first generation iphones and they keep getting more and more expensive.

That first year econ course you keep flogging covers supply and demand almost immediately. It seems you may have dozed off for part of that explanation.

What you are doing is trying to promote supply side economics without saying so in the hopes some people aren't paying attention and believe your bullshiat.

Supply side economics fails at everything other than making already wealthy people more wealthy. Demand drives everything and a UBI increases demand.

Right now we only have a vague notion of what demand actually is in the economy because we keep limiting demand with idiotic trickle down bullshiat.

UBI with universal healthcare, and cheap/free college, is the ultimate pro-labor combo. Because it means no one will have to to work to live. That means it's relatively painless to quit a shiatty job, to leave one career and retrain for another, to stop working for a bit and raise your kids, to start your own business, to serve your community, or to be an artist.

It's also good for capital as that combination gets them out of healthcare and retirement as parts of a benefits package, eliminates the need for a minimum wage, and gives them a labor force that wants to work for them rather than needs to.

The costs for capital will be increased taxes to help pay for the combo. Wages will go up for some businesses and down for others, the ones with toxic environments will find they'll have to offer more to get people to put up with them. Fun places or start-ups with a passionate following could have people working for free.

This last bit is what terrifies the wealthy, they've made their billions on the backs of a thoroughly cowed labor force, running on a model of unsustainable growth fueled by squeezing the the working class for every penny they can get, then raiding the treasury for bailouts when something goes wrong.

UBI, health care, and cheap education is a sustainable economic foundation. Because even if we have a financial crisis there's no reason to panic or bail anyone out. We can let businesses succeed or fail on their merits knowing no one will go hungry or homeless for lack of a job. We may need to still protect or support certain things like food production or national defense industries but for the most part it will be up to businesses to drum up demand for what they offer.


I was about to say 'this', but, instead: your newsletter, add me to the subscription.
 
2020-06-27 12:04:29 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: Shaggy_C: Careful with that - the U.K. attempted an idea of consolidating all of the various welfare schemes into a single programme called "Universal Credit" and results have been mixed at best.

And Universal Credit has nothing to do with UBI. Or rather, it has the same amount to do with UBI as a small Czechoslovakian traffic warden has to do with marmoset breeding patterns. You clod.


The label is irrelevant.  The devil is in the details.  In Canada we use to call it a social credit.  Yang calls it a public dividend.  Reverse tax.  UBI.  They are all the same or different depending on the details.

Yang's explanation is well thought out so as good as a point of reference as any.  Plus, there have been several pilots in Europe and Canada.
 
2020-06-27 12:04:32 PM  
I love language. I studied English in college due to intense interest in the intricacies and history of words.

This article calls UBI a "scheme," not a "plan" or a "program." The former having more of a negative connotation than the latter.

The entomology of the word has Greek origins: mid 16th century (denoting a figure of speech): from Latin schema, from Greek (see schema). An early sense was 'diagram of the position of celestial objects', giving rise to 'diagram, outline', whence the current senses. The unfavorable notion 'plot' arose in the mid 18th century.

As a verb it has its negative connotation:

make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.
"he schemed to bring about the collapse of the government"


/carry on
 
2020-06-27 12:08:52 PM  
It's effectively a cash assistance programme, and it will only help adults who make less than ~€500 a month as an individual without children.

It's a start, but it isn't UBI.
 
2020-06-27 12:09:34 PM  

ColonelCathcart: My only criticism of UBI is doing at anything less than a Single-Market level. I actually believe in UBI, but the tax system to redistribute the money back around and economy has to not bleed its money (trade deficit) to do it.

Right now, the only country that can do UBI is China or a petro-state (many of them do already).

Every other country will just accelerate inflation, budgetary collapse from the influx of people to take advantage of it, and more money leaving their country as people spend their money on foreign-made products.


I don't agree.  UBI could be done tomorrow on a revenue neutral basis.  Taxes would have to go up on the richest people.  But, those richer and rich people will also get the UBI.
 
2020-06-27 12:12:58 PM  

Murkanen: It's effectively a cash assistance programme, and it will only help adults who make less than ~€500 a month as an individual without children.

It's a start, but it isn't UBI.


I agree.  Any system that punishes making more money on your own is flawed.  It still requires the bureaucracy of managing eligibility which kind of defeats the purpose.

However, you can take steps towards UBI like harmonizing different social assistance programs and removing penalties for people making additional money.  Not sure if Spain has the smartest approach if what you posted is correct.
 
2020-06-27 12:12:59 PM  

mrshowrules: ColonelCathcart: My only criticism of UBI is doing at anything less than a Single-Market level. I actually believe in UBI, but the tax system to redistribute the money back around and economy has to not bleed its money (trade deficit) to do it.

Right now, the only country that can do UBI is China or a petro-state (many of them do already).

Every other country will just accelerate inflation, budgetary collapse from the influx of people to take advantage of it, and more money leaving their country as people spend their money on foreign-made products.

I don't agree.  UBI could be done tomorrow on a revenue neutral basis.  Taxes would have to go up on the richest people.  But, those richer and rich people will also get the UBI.


UBI would need a massive tax overhaul, so no it can't be done "tomorrow" - it also needs Americans to consume less foreign shiat to prevent the money from just accelerating its departure from the USA.
 
2020-06-27 12:31:24 PM  

OneManArmy: I love language. I studied English in college due to intense interest in the intricacies and history of words.

This article calls UBI a "scheme," not a "plan" or a "program." The former having more of a negative connotation than the latter.

The entomology of the word has Greek origins: mid 16th century (denoting a figure of speech): from Latin schema, from Greek (see schema). An early sense was 'diagram of the position of celestial objects', giving rise to 'diagram, outline', whence the current senses. The unfavorable notion 'plot' arose in the mid 18th century.

As a verb it has its negative connotation:

make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.
"he schemed to bring about the collapse of the government"


/carry on


I noted it to, then shrugged it off as a biased editor's handiwork. It doesn't help TFA is not well written either.
 
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