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(Tobago Road)   "Columbus actually reached America before his voyages." whatthefarkamireading.jpg   (newsday.co.tt) divider line
    More: Strange, Christopher Columbus, Spanish Inquisition, Spain, Isabella I of Castile, Queen Isabella, Dominican Order, Inquisition, Granada  
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353 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 24 Jun 2020 at 9:35 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-24 10:26:05 AM  
4 votes:
The author managed to use fewer sources than his family tree.
 
2020-06-24 12:01:56 PM  
3 votes:

fluffy_pope: He actually reached America before his voyages. What he found were fishing ships which had discovered the bounty of that land's fish stocks. He promised not to tell anyone of what he met there on his return, for obvious reasons.

I find this argument compelling and the logic irrefutable.


I sort of think I might know what's behind this...

There's been speculation for a long time now that Basque and Portugese fishermen knew of lands past the Azores before Columbus got there, but to preserve their monopoly of the stocks they never shared the information.  Columbus was an experienced mariner, so if those stories were true, there's a reasonable chance he would have heard them.

This guy seems to have taken that tidbit of speculative history and added it to his smoothie of crazy.
 
2020-06-24 9:53:04 AM  
3 votes:
What the actual fark?

This person needs prompt psychiatric help.
 
2020-06-24 2:01:24 PM  
2 votes:

Kurohone: dittybopper: Kurohone: There's been speculation for a long time now that Basque and Portugese fishermen knew of lands past the Azores before Columbus got there, but to preserve their monopoly of the stocks they never shared the information.

That's speculation of someone who hasn't looked a chart or sailed the Atlantic.

It's a long voyage from the Azores to the Caribbean, and an even longer voyage back.

The North Equatorial Current and the Trade Winds will drive you to the area of the Caribbean, but then you have to go north with the Gulf Stream and catch the Westerlies in order to get back to Europe.  You can't really take a "short cut" home because that puts you in middle of the the North Atlantic Gyre and in the Horse Latitudes, meaning current and wind are going to be so light that you won't make much progress.

This isn't as much of a problem in a modern yacht with a diesel or electric engine, a watermaker, and all the conveniences, but in a caravel with an average speed of 4 or 5 knots, that's a *VERY* long voyage.

That's a round trip of something like 7,800 nautical miles, and at an average speed of 4 knots, that's going to take you a minimum of 81 days, nearly 3 months, without stopping for anything.

Columbus had a crew of experienced Spanish sailors, and they were near mutiny after just a month at sea.

Lisbon to the Azores is about 1500km, and those islands were settled by the 1440s, and on maps a hundred years before that.

From the Azores to the Grand Banks is somewhere between 1800 and 2000km, and once they became 'officially' found in 1497, it didn't take long to set up processing / overwinter stations on Newfoundland.  There's also the suspicious fact that Giovanni Cabotto seemed to know what he was going to find BEFORE he got there.



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Going directly from the Azores to the Grand Banks means you'll be fighting both the wind and the current at the same time.

Yes, a caravel has some ability to sail into the wind, especially with a lateen rig, but you would would be beating against a current, reducing your speed, and you'd already be slower by being close hauled or on a close reach to the prevailing winds.

You'd be lucky to make 1 or 2 knots speed over ground.
 
2020-06-24 12:59:03 PM  
2 votes:
The evidence that Columbus mistreated Indians is in his diary.

"Mistreated" is a mild, forgiving word for what Columbus did.
 
2020-06-24 12:45:23 PM  
2 votes:

Kurohone: There's been speculation for a long time now that Basque and Portugese fishermen knew of lands past the Azores before Columbus got there, but to preserve their monopoly of the stocks they never shared the information.


That's speculation of someone who hasn't looked a chart or sailed the Atlantic.

It's a long voyage from the Azores to the Caribbean, and an even longer voyage back.

The North Equatorial Current and the Trade Winds will drive you to the area of the Caribbean, but then you have to go north with the Gulf Stream and catch the Westerlies in order to get back to Europe.  You can't really take a "short cut" home because that puts you in middle of the the North Atlantic Gyre and in the Horse Latitudes, meaning current and wind are going to be so light that you won't make much progress.

This isn't as much of a problem in a modern yacht with a diesel or electric engine, a watermaker, and all the conveniences, but in a caravel with an average speed of 4 or 5 knots, that's a *VERY* long voyage.

That's a round trip of something like 7,800 nautical miles, and at an average speed of 4 knots, that's going to take you a minimum of 81 days, nearly 3 months, without stopping for anything.

Columbus had a crew of experienced Spanish sailors, and they were near mutiny after just a month at sea.
 
2020-06-24 6:01:25 PM  
1 vote:

fluffy_pope: Kurohone: fluffy_pope: He actually reached America before his voyages. What he found were fishing ships which had discovered the bounty of that land's fish stocks. He promised not to tell anyone of what he met there on his return, for obvious reasons.

I find this argument compelling and the logic irrefutable.

I sort of think I might know what's behind this...

There's been speculation for a long time now that Basque and Portugese fishermen knew of lands past the Azores before Columbus got there, but to preserve their monopoly of the stocks they never shared the information.  Columbus was an experienced mariner, so if those stories were true, there's a reasonable chance he would have heard them.

This guy seems to have taken that tidbit of speculative history and added it to his smoothie of crazy.

they went that far for fish?? nearer my cod to thee, I guess.


The Grand Banks (SE of Newfoundland) was said to be so plentiful with cod you could almost walk across them.

/though that could just be a fisherman's tale.
 
2020-06-24 1:09:03 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: Kurohone: There's been speculation for a long time now that Basque and Portugese fishermen knew of lands past the Azores before Columbus got there, but to preserve their monopoly of the stocks they never shared the information.

That's speculation of someone who hasn't looked a chart or sailed the Atlantic.

It's a long voyage from the Azores to the Caribbean, and an even longer voyage back.

The North Equatorial Current and the Trade Winds will drive you to the area of the Caribbean, but then you have to go north with the Gulf Stream and catch the Westerlies in order to get back to Europe.  You can't really take a "short cut" home because that puts you in middle of the the North Atlantic Gyre and in the Horse Latitudes, meaning current and wind are going to be so light that you won't make much progress.

This isn't as much of a problem in a modern yacht with a diesel or electric engine, a watermaker, and all the conveniences, but in a caravel with an average speed of 4 or 5 knots, that's a *VERY* long voyage.

That's a round trip of something like 7,800 nautical miles, and at an average speed of 4 knots, that's going to take you a minimum of 81 days, nearly 3 months, without stopping for anything.

Columbus had a crew of experienced Spanish sailors, and they were near mutiny after just a month at sea.


Lisbon to the Azores is about 1500km, and those islands were settled by the 1440s, and on maps a hundred years before that.

From the Azores to the Grand Banks is somewhere between 1800 and 2000km, and once they became 'officially' found in 1497, it didn't take long to set up processing / overwinter stations on Newfoundland.  There's also the suspicious fact that Giovanni Cabotto seemed to know what he was going to find BEFORE he got there.
 
2020-06-24 12:17:31 PM  
1 vote:

fluffy_pope: He actually reached America before his voyages. What he found were fishing ships which had discovered the bounty of that land's fish stocks. He promised not to tell anyone of what he met there on his return, for obvious reasons.

I find this argument compelling and the logic irrefutable.


There's a ton of reasons why Columbus's voyage looks like a suicide mission, and it certainly wasn't for more fish.  The Portuguese (and anybody else who used the trick of "running the lattitudes") knew roughly how long it took to sail around the world (they knew how long it took to sail specific fractions, you just have add up the missing fractions), and simply laughed him out of the court.  The Spaniards argued long and hard over which copy of Eratosthenes was correct, all the while having the text stating exactly how to do the calculations and Madrid due north of Toledo to simply *do* the measurement.  So they ignored actually checking the facts and went along with some smooth talking.  Still, nobody wanted to go on such an insane journey, so they loaded the ship up with criminals.

There never was any question about the Earth being round (you have to be a "modern" idiot to believe that), but believing Columbus required believing the wrong Eratosthenes value (and not doing a check vastly easier than the voyage) and assuming not only Marco Polo's "the Travels" wasn't fiction* (as widely believed until the modern era) but that he moved as fast as a modern AT through hiker (Polo's "a day's journey" turns about to be about 3 miles.  Believable with full merchant packs, guards, mountain ranges, barely any trail, etc.).

If you assumed that Columbus was the heroic figure of myth, you might believe TFA.  A more likely explanation was that the vile petty tyrant was simply dumb and lucky.

/* there's no record of Marco Polo as any type of court functionary
// he almost certainly wildly exaggerated his personal exploits
/// but the bits of Asia he describes (as having personally seen) are reasonably accurate*.  The bits he relays as "others have seen" are not.
/V* [bonus slashie] ok, from renaissance Italian perspective.  Such as calling Buddhists "idolators".
 
2020-06-24 10:26:49 AM  
1 vote:
Nuttiest thing I've seen today, but that's only because I saw the nutcase Black-Q Congressional Candidate proving that George Floyd's death was faked yesterday.
 
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