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(Politico)   California capitol will have its Christopher Columbus statue discover the trash heap after 137 years   (politico.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Christopher Columbus, United States, Sacramento, California, statue of Christopher Columbus, Indigenous peoples of the Americas, Native Americans in the United States, Capitol rotunda, historical figures  
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1197 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jun 2020 at 9:34 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-17 8:51:32 AM  
If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.
 
2020-06-17 8:53:44 AM  
I'm not sure I actually see Christopher Columbus signs as being quite as offensive and inappropriate as signs celebrating Confederate traitors, but if they're going to come down as a result of this movement, then so be it. My only request is that their eradication also involves forever deleting from history the Sopranos episode that was also centered around Christopher Columbus, which was by far the foulest stain on an otherwise exceptional series. Jesus Christ, it was awful.
 
2020-06-17 8:58:48 AM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm not sure I actually see Christopher Columbus signs as being quite as offensive and inappropriate as signs celebrating Confederate traitors, but if they're going to come down as a result of this movement, then so be it. My only request is that their eradication also involves forever deleting from history the Sopranos episode that was also centered around Christopher Columbus, which was by far the foulest stain on an otherwise exceptional series. Jesus Christ, it was awful.


Some of the Johnny Cakes episodes were terrible as well.
 
2020-06-17 9:10:30 AM  

pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.


What about the half a billion things named Columbus in the United States?  Although he was horrible, let's not get sidetracked here.
 
2020-06-17 9:36:38 AM  

pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.


And considering how many people are surprised to hear that about Columbus, it shoots a pretty big hole in the 'statues teach history!' line of bullshiat.
 
2020-06-17 9:37:18 AM  
Shouldn't it be replaced by a statue of Leif Erikson?
 
2020-06-17 9:38:19 AM  

EvilEgg: pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.

What about the half a billion things named Columbus in the United States?  Although he was horrible, let's not get sidetracked here.


Those things aren't named after Christopher Columbus, but I can see where your confusion comes from. They were named after my great-great- great- great-grandfather, Jeoffrey Columbus, who invented the left-handed sewing needle.
 
2020-06-17 9:38:23 AM  

EvilEgg: pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.

What about the half a billion things named Columbus in the United States?  Although he was horrible, let's not get sidetracked here.


Columbus, Ohio will hereafter be known as Vespuccitown.

/Comma Ohio
//Space 43215
 
2020-06-17 9:39:29 AM  
aetre.xepher.netView Full Size
 
2020-06-17 9:42:45 AM  

pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.


Andrew Cuomo sees your post and chuckles.
 
2020-06-17 9:45:45 AM  
oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?
 
2020-06-17 9:46:58 AM  
THE GREAT TRASH HEAP HAS SPOKEN

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-17 9:49:06 AM  

tfresh: oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?


Have you ever read A People's History of the United States? There is evidence that Christopher Columbus forced the indigenous people of Hispaniola to mine gold for him, and if they did not meet his quota, he would cut off one of their hands.
 
2020-06-17 9:50:34 AM  

tfresh: oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?


Nah. Harriet Tubman would work just fine. Or Sojourner Truth. Also, Bartolome de las Casas (a suggestion The Oatmeal came up with a few years ago) if you want to stick to a Catholic icon.

No need to get rid of the past. Let's just celebrate better parts of it.
 
2020-06-17 9:54:41 AM  
i can see the protesters point. but yeah, he may have been a bit stodgy, but i always thought he was great

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-17 9:55:19 AM  

EvilEgg: pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.

What about the half a billion things named Columbus in the United States?  Although he was horrible, let's not get sidetracked here.


I wouldn't mind visiting George Floyd, Ohio.
 
2020-06-17 9:59:54 AM  
FTFA:

But Roger Niello, a former Republican assembly member from the Sacramento area, said on Twitter, "I guess now if we don't like part of our history we just erase it."

I guess I missed that day in history class when we learned about Columbus discovering California.

I was in lower school in 1992 during the 500th anniversary celebrations; even back then I didn't understand what the big deal was because he never set foot in North America
 
2020-06-17 10:00:19 AM  
All public spaces must be purified.

Nothing of any perceived offense can remain.
 
2020-06-17 10:00:49 AM  

Pocket Ninja: I'm not sure I actually see Christopher Columbus signs as being quite as offensive and inappropriate as signs celebrating Confederate traitors, but if they're going to come down as a result of this movement, then so be it. My only request is that their eradication also involves forever deleting from history the Sopranos episode that was also centered around Christopher Columbus, which was by far the foulest stain on an otherwise exceptional series. Jesus Christ, it was awful.


The thing is most of those statues weren't put up with the intent to offend people. Most people were pretty ignorant of what Columbus did and really only knew the story told in grade school. Those Confederate statues were put up by people that knew damn well what they represented and placed them there as a big fark you to black people.
 
2020-06-17 10:03:15 AM  

phrawgh: Shouldn't it be replaced by a statue of Leif Erikson?


We had one, but an unruly mob knocked it over. Town replaced it, and it fell down too. There was no street viola that time, though...we turned over a new Leif.
 
2020-06-17 10:04:01 AM  

1funguy: EvilEgg: pkjun: If you were judged to be too brutal and tyrannical to be a royal governor during the Spanish Inquisition, you're probably not worth honouring by our own government.

What about the half a billion things named Columbus in the United States?  Although he was horrible, let's not get sidetracked here.

I wouldn't mind visiting George Floyd, Ohio.


I can't even imagine the hissy fits.
 
2020-06-17 10:06:22 AM  

Prof. Frink: phrawgh: Shouldn't it be replaced by a statue of Leif Erikson?

We had one, but an unruly mob knocked it over. Town replaced it, and it fell down too. There was no street viola that time, though...we turned over a new Leif.


No, that was Leif Garrett.

/an honest mistake
 
2020-06-17 10:14:52 AM  

rcain: Good. Do we really need to be celebrating a navigationally challenged, genocidal asshole that absolutely no one who personally knew him could stand?


See, that's the problem with Columbus - not that he was the harbinger of the coming of the White Man - that would have happened with or without him, anyway.
The problem is that he was really a rotten son-of-a-biatch, and didn't really personally accomplish a lot of what he's credited with.
He's just a crappy hero, even if you are a manifest destiny fan.
 
2020-06-17 10:15:09 AM  

Lochsteppe: Columbus, Ohio will hereafter be known as Vespuccitown.


Finally, someone who knows of Amerigo Vespucci
Next thing you know George Washington didn't have wooden teeth.
 
2020-06-17 10:18:08 AM  

tfresh: oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?


Every time one of you dumb dumbs says woke I'm reminded that free will really isn't.
 
2020-06-17 10:18:22 AM  
Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?
 
2020-06-17 10:19:31 AM  

Aetre: tfresh: oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?

Nah. Harriet Tubman would work just fine. Or Sojourner Truth. Also, Bartolome de las Casas (a suggestion The Oatmeal came up with a few years ago) if you want to stick to a Catholic icon.

No need to get rid of the past. Let's just celebrate better parts of it.


how about Lewis and Clark? Or the native guides that helped them out?
 
2020-06-17 10:26:06 AM  
It's a little weird American school children sing songs about him considering he didn't actually step foot in America (unless you count spending a day or two in Puerto Rico).
 
2020-06-17 10:27:50 AM  

Cythraul: tfresh: oh ffs. Tell you what... can we just skip to the end of the condemnation of all human behavior in the past and replace the statues with the only ones with whom the young, woke people will approve.... themselves?

Have you ever read A People's History of the United States? There is evidence that Christopher Columbus forced the indigenous people of Hispaniola to mine gold for him, and if they did not meet his quota, he would cut off one of their hands.


I saw that piece about him using an eclipse to get food from native tribes so that he and his crew could make it back home... and if I were trapped on the other side of an unknown ocean on unknown land on a wooden boat filled with disease, rats etc and needed to get home I'd do the same thing.. as would about 100% of anyone in that situation.

'Hey crew... listen up. We don't have enough food to make it home... SO... its either dupe these people into giving us food and go home OR take our chances finding food in this unknown part of the world.'

Statues of long dead people are the low hanging fruit for the morally righteous who have ZERO historical perspective or ability to try to empathize with living in a time before the internet. They don't want to believe that they could be like that themselves and are doing nothing more than covering up the reflections of themselves in the mirrors of the past. They're supposed to serve as reminders of both good and bad. Take pride in the ones of the good and egg the ones of the bad but don't remove them. Turning your back on history means you're destined to repeat it in the future.
 
2020-06-17 10:40:39 AM  

rcain: Good. Do we really need to be celebrating a navigationally challenged, genocidal asshole that absolutely no one who personally knew him could stand?


Take note folks, there are people out there (presumably walking amongst us!) that actually think like this.

Please lock your doors at night.
 
2020-06-17 10:44:30 AM  

Snort: All public spaces must be purified.

Nothing of any perceived offense can remain.


I, for one, can't wait for the new era of complete racial harmony and social cooperation that all of this will surely usher in once we've finished completely erasing everything historically offensive, racist, and politically incorrect from art, literature, history books, music, movies, and museums.

Yep. We're surely just one more destroyed statue and burned book away from it. I can feel it.
 
2020-06-17 10:50:11 AM  

Kit Fister: Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?


That's pure pseudohistory. No documentation whatsoever.

What we should be commemorating is China's discovery of North America, 71 years before Columbus even sailed. We even have the contemporary maps that they drew up, clearly showing the United States within a distinct dashed line. This is pretty cut-and-dry stuff.
 
2020-06-17 10:51:30 AM  

8 inches: rcain: Good. Do we really need to be celebrating a navigationally challenged, genocidal asshole that absolutely no one who personally knew him could stand?

Take note folks, there are people out there (presumably walking amongst us!) that actually think like this.

Please lock your doors at night.


Some highlights from Wikipedia:

During his brief reign, Columbus executed Spanish colonists for minor crimes, and used dismemberment as another form of punishment. When Columbus fell ill in 1495, "what little restraint he had maintained over his men disappeared as he went through a lengthy period of recuperation. The troops went wild, stealing, killing, raping, and torturing natives, trying to force them to divulge the whereabouts of the imagined treasure-houses of gold." According to Las Casas, 50,000 natives perished during this period.

Upon his recovery, Columbus organized his troops' efforts, forming a squadron of several hundred heavily armed men and more than twenty attack dogs. Dogs were used to hunt down natives who attempted to flee. Columbus's men tore across the land, killing thousands of sick and unarmed natives. Soldiers would use their captives for sword practice, attempting to decapitate them or cut them in half with a single blow.

The Arawaks attempted to fight back against Columbus's men but lacked their armor, guns, swords, and horses. When taken prisoner, they were hanged or burned to death. Desperation led to mass suicides and infanticide among the natives. In just two years under Columbus's governorship, over 125,000 of the 250,000-300,000 natives in Haiti were dead, many died from lethal forced labor in the mines, in which a third of workers died every six months. Within three decades, the surviving Arawak population numbered only in the hundreds."Virtually every member of the gentle race ... had been wiped out."
 
2020-06-17 10:52:14 AM  
The Oatmeal made a nice summary the Columbus suckyness some years back:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbu​s​_day
 
2020-06-17 10:56:02 AM  

Kit Fister: Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?


Maybe he should have told Columbus
 
2020-06-17 11:02:24 AM  

BigNumber12: Kit Fister: Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?

That's pure pseudohistory. No documentation whatsoever.

What we should be commemorating is China's discovery of North America, 71 years before Columbus even sailed. We even have the contemporary maps that they drew up, clearly showing the United States within a distinct dashed line. This is pretty cut-and-dry stuff.


L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland is not pseudohistory.  Vikings were living there about 1000 years ago.
 
2020-06-17 11:03:10 AM  

I want that sauce Morty!: Pocket Ninja: I'm not sure I actually see Christopher Columbus signs as being quite as offensive and inappropriate as signs celebrating Confederate traitors, but if they're going to come down as a result of this movement, then so be it. My only request is that their eradication also involves forever deleting from history the Sopranos episode that was also centered around Christopher Columbus, which was by far the foulest stain on an otherwise exceptional series. Jesus Christ, it was awful.

The thing is most of those statues weren't put up with the intent to offend people. Most people were pretty ignorant of what Columbus did and really only knew the story told in grade school. Those Confederate statues were put up by people that knew damn well what they represented and placed them there as a big fark you to black people.


I agree. But 1) you don't learn shiat from a statue of a person. Maybe stir of liberty or justice. I've never seen a statue of a person and felt the need to learn about them
2) anybody that pledged fealty to a monarchy or theocracy or potentate can Fark well be put on the garbage heap.
 
2020-06-17 11:05:07 AM  
Columbus This Space for Sale Day 2020?
 
2020-06-17 11:05:17 AM  

thornhill: I guess I missed that day in history class when we learned about Columbus discovering California.


Besides, didn't they find ancient Chinese anchors in California, indicating it was discovered from the west long before Columbus?
 
2020-06-17 11:07:21 AM  

CluelessMoron: BigNumber12: Kit Fister: Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?

That's pure pseudohistory. No documentation whatsoever.

What we should be commemorating is China's discovery of North America, 71 years before Columbus even sailed. We even have the contemporary maps that they drew up, clearly showing the United States within a distinct dashed line. This is pretty cut-and-dry stuff.

L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland is not pseudohistory.  Vikings were living there about 1000 years ago.


This. Definitive proof of Viking settlements in NA predating Columbus has been settled, verified fact for a few decades now.
 
2020-06-17 11:13:32 AM  
Here's the thing about Columbus...  And I will tell the story from a different angle.

I went to Mount Vernon at some point in my late 30's...  We were on vacation.  That day, I walked over to one of the buildings and started reading the plaque.  In short it said, "These are the farking slave quarters."

Slave quarters?!? What the actual fark?!

I was astonished!  Because here I am almost 40 years old, and never once had I ever heard mention that Washington was a slave owner.  Somehow, all the history books I ever went through in school just never mentioned that.

Which leads me to the problem with Columbus.  Our history has been SO sanitized for SO long that for generations, people believed that Columbus was a great guy!  They wrote a poem about him "sailing the ocean blue".  Now we are finding out the truth of how Columbus was a murderous scumbag who basically stumbled onto this place, and wasn't even where he thought he was when he named the first people he saw.  Then he stole their gold, infected them with diseases, killed a bunch of them, and exported a bunch more of them back to Europe.

So here we are in 2020 trying to correct all that history.  Taking down the statues.  And the Confederates too...  And people are screaming loudly to "not mess with their history."

And I hope you all understand what that really means now.  It means, "I like my history the way it was.  Clean, heroic, and sanitized.  Stop taking that away from me!!"
 
2020-06-17 11:14:28 AM  

SuperChuck: Kit Fister: Can we replace him with Eric the Red, since he got here a couple hundred years before Columbus anyway?

Maybe he should have told Columbus


He would have, but unlike Columbus, Eric and the other Viking settlers weren't complete empire-building dicks out to enslave and destroy the natives while building a massive kingdom on their backs.

Funny thing, but most if not all of the Viking settlements beyond Scandinavia that we know about demonstrate that unlike the Spaniards and British a few centuries later, the Vikings had zero problems settling down with, cohabiting with, and even marrying into the local populations to the point that they became indiscernible. Take Dublin, Ireland and, well, Normandy as a whole as an example, though in the case of Normandy, the Vikings were literally paid off by the French to settle at the mouth of the river that runs through Paris in an effort to prevent other vikings from sailing up it and holding Paris for ransom (after having done so successfully 4 times previously).

The Vikings also have a long history of having traveled to and throughout the middle east (Norse runic inscriptions can be found in the Haggeah Sophia (I'm sure I botched that spelling) in Constantinople, trading with the Middle East, Northern Africa, and all over the Med.

This is a large reason why I'm both amused and infuriated when racists try to adopt my ancestors' culture to promote their hate and bigotry, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the culture. I mean, FFS, the Vikings gave us trial by jury, women having equality to vote, sit on the Thing (the council which arbitrated disputes, made laws, etc.), own property, demand a divorce, inherit property, and even go into battle on equal footing with the men. And don't get me started with the general lack of farks given towards homosexuals/homosexual behavior.

Then again, all anyone remembers is the demonizing done by the Catholic Church. Oh well.
 
2020-06-17 11:17:01 AM  

jso2897: rcain: Good. Do we really need to be celebrating a navigationally challenged, genocidal asshole that absolutely no one who personally knew him could stand?

See, that's the problem with Columbus - not that he was the harbinger of the coming of the White Man - that would have happened with or without him, anyway.
The problem is that he was really a rotten son-of-a-biatch, and didn't really personally accomplish a lot of what he's credited with.
He's just a crappy hero, even if you are a manifest destiny fan.


He even failed to find a route to India, event thou Norwegians (and the Irish-but I repeat myself) knew there was a lump o' land in the way.
 
2020-06-17 11:17:18 AM  
It's just a matter of tracing events, power, and and looking into the past, without the lens of today distorting the image.

The bigger picture of why coulombs as a hero figure is simply to combo giving legitimacy to those conquering an already inhabited land, as well as deflect the blame for it later on.

A figure head that is the conqueror of the past to be blamed, separated form the present day inhabitants now settled there. And in truth it's not like anyone hundreds of years later had  any choices about where they were born or who to.

As well more in the moment he provides a figure head of rally in case anyone at the times was not 100% on board with the whole manifest destiny thing. Creating a near religious telling of the story to be more grand and epic and selfless than it really was. Just a business venture to make more money and crate more power for some few really is all nothing better than the retelling of a period of time for the life of a venture capitalist.


One must take a step by step approach to looking into the past and trying to understand "how did we get to this sitauiton today?"

Some of that will be, people were just different, we are a product of our environment, and time makes islands of all the cultures that have come and gone and are yet to be.
Someone raised 100+ years ago is no different than someone raised on the other side of the world to a totally different culture than your own.

And universally power and wealth(control of resources) have their own mechanics that have remained largely the same. We just have to understand the dynamics of power, and if we can udnerstand enough of the cultural/social/economic forces at work on those people from the past.
We can quite well trace the evolutionary path from the past to the current situation in lots of and lots of cases.

Even if we today have learned some things are not true that we used to think were. We still need to examine the past through a lens that did believe what we do not today.

I quite well see why we have statues of Chris and why he was made into a sort of mythic figure of the American dogma, and why it takes so so long for the changes like this to come around.

Evolution as a mechanic, is a generally slow and messy process just for getting the genetic code updated. And that's pretty well an autopilot situation in the genes already. Social evolution, that only actually happens when we deiced we want to have a different social environemt, and have to willfully exert concussions effort to do that.
 
2020-06-17 11:19:53 AM  

FlashHarry: thornhill: I guess I missed that day in history class when we learned about Columbus discovering California.

Besides, didn't they find ancient Chinese anchors in California, indicating it was discovered from the west long before Columbus?


The anchors have been debunked the maps are also contentious

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_M​e​nzies


The Vikings OTOH are known to have been in Newfoundland around 1000 AD -- See above
 
2020-06-17 11:21:08 AM  
WTF, Fark... Your screen without ad-blocks looks the same as an 'Ow-My-Balls' screen

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-17 11:31:53 AM  

tfresh: Statues of long dead people are the low hanging fruit for the morally righteous who have ZERO historical perspective or ability to try to empathize with living in a time before the internet. They don't want to believe that they could be like that themselves and are doing nothing more than covering up the reflections of themselves in the mirrors of the past.


As the very Boobies in the thread pointed out, at one point Columbus was arrested by the Spanish crown for his actions. So even by past standards, he was a dick.
 
2020-06-17 11:42:32 AM  

browntimmy: at one point Columbus was arrested by the Spanish crown for his actions


How many times was George Floyd arrested?

Asking for a dysfunctional civilization in decline.
 
2020-06-17 11:48:53 AM  

thornhill: FTFA:

But Roger Niello, a former Republican assembly member from the Sacramento area, said on Twitter, "I guess now if we don't like part of our history we just erase it."

I guess I missed that day in history class when we learned about Columbus discovering California.

I was in lower school in 1992 during the 500th anniversary celebrations; even back then I didn't understand what the big deal was because he never set foot in North America


Also Roger Niello happens to be a car salesman turd. He was my Assembly Rep for awhile and we did not get along. Rich white judgmental Republican jackass that didn't even live in the district -- pretty common for them.

/ Never buy a car from that guy.
 
2020-06-17 11:49:54 AM  
th.bing.comView Full Size

Next to be sanitized?
 
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