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(Slate)   Black students are tired of teaching white students how not to be racist   (slate.com) divider line
    More: Murica, Racism, African American, Affirmative action, Education, Black people, Race, University of Michigan Law School, University of Michigan  
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5245 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 14 Jun 2020 at 4:05 AM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-13 11:54:06 PM  
This is worth reading.

I teach at a predominately white and rich private university. I'm an ancient historian and linguist. But in my freshmen "great books" style required course, modern issues like this come up. And I'm guilty of fostering just this experience:
"As one of the only "diverse" voices, I had to do the unpaid work of educating classmates, professors, and administrators countless times over."

Whenever we talk about racism and similar issues in our seminars, I feel like I'm tiptoeing into a minefield. I usually play devil's advocate in debates to get students to think, but I can't do that here, lest someone records me playing the role and puts it on Twitter. I hesitate to ask the tough questions I would in normal conversations, because again, I don't want to get fired. I look too often to students of color to pipe up, principally it absolves me of the danger.

This is horribly unfair to them.

I've attended workshops to help with this issue, but strangely the workshop leaders (also profs of color in the racism workshops) advocate for precisely what the student in the article rightly objects to--putting it on the students (though it's framed as "elicit personal experiences from marginalized students").
 
2020-06-14 4:16:54 AM  
Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.
 
2020-06-14 4:29:11 AM  
But I thought they already had "That One Black Friend" ™ who taught them everything?!
 
2020-06-14 4:31:44 AM  
While I'm sympathetic to the author's experiences, the scenario would probably play out similarly if, say, a French national  was sitting in a class on French history. Some folks (including myself) don't really mind engaging in a dialogue about our personal experiences if it contributes something positive.
 
2020-06-14 4:40:17 AM  

wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.


The schools? Hire more people of color, get better textbooks and curriculum.  I realize there are political roadblocks in these things but asking the marginalised to just shed those shackles and work overtime isn't the answer.
 
2020-06-14 4:50:37 AM  

wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.


Much, like that cotton, wasn't going to pick it self?
 
2020-06-14 4:55:49 AM  
I'm just tired of teaching white students period.
 
2020-06-14 5:01:15 AM  

dark brew: wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.

The schools? Hire more people of color, get better textbooks and curriculum.  I realize there are political roadblocks in these things but asking the marginalised to just shed those shackles and work overtime isn't the answer.


Political roadblocks? Try financial ones. Private schools have outright tuition, and public ones rely upon booster clubs and other support groups. Piss off the wealthy white parents, and you just killed your revenue streams.

You want to fight racism? Make it unprofitable.
 
2020-06-14 5:01:25 AM  

Megathuma: This is worth reading.


It is to someone like you who is exposed to the environment and knows what the author is talking about (and it is probably targeting this audience) and can fill out the blanks, but to someone like myself who is not a part of the US academia and has not lived in the US, it is nearly incomprehensible.

The argument is very abstract, it is really hard to understand the source of frustration of the author from the discussion of the first two or three legal cases she's describing, and there are only glimpses of what's troubling her (like the Jim Crow episode).

This is followed by a list of demands that the author is presumably arguing in favor of that are poorly presented, seem poorly defined and when this broad and unclear, can bring any result whatsoever, from making no difference, to being applied unfairly and causing damage.

While I can understand the frustration of having to explain yourself over and over again, sometimes it is necessary to do it, and try to get more and more articulated as you go forward.

I would presume twice over when you're an aspiring young lawyer.
 
2020-06-14 5:06:37 AM  

Claude Ballse: dark brew: wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.

The schools? Hire more people of color, get better textbooks and curriculum.  I realize there are political roadblocks in these things but asking the marginalised to just shed those shackles and work overtime isn't the answer.

Political roadblocks? Try financial ones. Private schools have outright tuition, and public ones rely upon booster clubs and other support groups. Piss off the wealthy white parents, and you just killed your revenue streams.

You want to fight racism? Make it unprofitable.


I was more speaking to the curriculum and hiring practices of public school districts that are so easily manipulated.  Private schools will always be the refuge for the rich.
 
2020-06-14 5:07:26 AM  
This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.
 
2020-06-14 5:10:22 AM  

thereisnodebate: While I'm sympathetic to the author's experiences, the scenario would probably play out similarly if, say, a French national  was sitting in a class on French history. Some folks (including myself) don't really mind engaging in a dialogue about our personal experiences if it contributes something positive.


That's what privilege is about though, no?  A French national sitting in on a class about French history can lend his/her voice, maybe it's right or wrong but the French national would probably be taken as an expert in a class of non French nationals and nothing really matters whether he/she speaks up or doesn't.

But a black American has to fight upstream against systemic racism. Maybe the high school teaches his/her history but probably not.  That's an individual fight.  Then you get to college.  Then law school, where most classmates and nearly all professors don't look like you. Again it's an extra burden to change the system, something your white counterparts don't worry about. Their story, their history, is just accepted. The SC Grutter decision was desperately trying to convince us all that we're equal when it is painfully clear we aren't.

I was a law school applicant In 2004 and remember getting upset that I scored in the 98th percentile and was hoping to just to get wait listed at Ivy schools (I did, Cornell only but it counts), but afraid that a black female applicant in my LSAT preparation course scored who scored lower was going to take my spot.  I thought I had no advantages over her, despite growing up in a predominately white suburb where almost everyone graduated high school and went on to college. I was set up to succeed.  Many minorities aren't.  It's systemic.  Declaring quotas to be unconstitutional doesn't change that.
 
2020-06-14 5:17:25 AM  
It's hard to convince people that they are pieces of shiat.

I'll tell someone, "Hey, you are a sack of shiat."

They just never agree with me for some reason.

Especially when you are trying to convince them that the color of their skin is the reason they are a sack of shiat.
 
2020-06-14 5:18:41 AM  

Animatronik: This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.


America has a 240+ year history of telling one biased story.  If you think demanding some change to systemic racist practices is political because it levels the playing field, that says a lot about you and what you fear to loose.
 
2020-06-14 5:24:06 AM  
I grew up in rural Colorado. there were literally no black people in my town (there wee Hispanics and Native Americans but when talked about it was always prefaced by 'you know how they are'). the open and overt racism I was exposed to in my youth is jarring to think about now. when I went to college I met actual black people and gay people and people from China, Japan, Korea, Europe, every where.
that was the biggest part of my education. I still owe them all a debt for being patient and answering my stupid questions. I was naive and needed the info. I truly didn't get it.
the moment it truly crystalized for me, what racism looks like, was while I was at work. my black coworker and I needed to go to the store to buy stuff for work. his parents were very wealthy lawyers in NYC, I was poor white trash. he drove a Porsche. he was an awesome person. and when we got to the store I noticed we were being followed. that never happened to me. I asked him if they thought I was going to steal something. he said 'no, they think I will.'
we talked in the car on the way back to work and he explained that happened on a daily basis. he just ignored it. the concept that the son of millionaires had to endure that on a regular basis was just jarring. I had no idea.

also, the LGBT folks taught me a lot. there is a whole lot of soul searching that goes into coming out. openly gay people and trans people are very comfortable about who and what they are. there is definitely some affectation but that can be forgiven. you are talking to a very self aware person. I have always admired that. unfortunately I think as a result I find myself attracted to lesbians and that doesn't tend to work out well.

this is probably why the right dislikes college education. it tends to come with developing an empathy for others. it certainly did for me. I am a staunch supporter of others who are different than myself.

I would encourage black students to be patient. you don't change a mind in a single conversation. if the instilled belief is deeply lodged it can take a while.

but that is anecdotal.
 
2020-06-14 5:30:16 AM  

dark brew: Animatronik: This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.

America has a 240+ year history of telling one biased story.  If you think demanding some change to systemic racist practices is political because it levels the playing field, that says a lot about you and what you fear to loose.


And so goes the culture of racial intimidation.

In two sentences, you turn the discussion back on me with ad hominem statements, without addressing my point, insteading reinforcing it.
 
2020-06-14 5:32:06 AM  
Clearly some strong feelings, but I find it very difficult from reading that to work out what the actual issues are. Also, what does "Require professors in courses that have potentially triggering cases to have mandatory opt-outs for cold calls, no questions asked" mean - what is a mandatory opt-out for cold calls?
 
2020-06-14 5:47:56 AM  
My problem with the race issue is my same problem with every other issue involving politics and/or social justice, and that problem is contributing to the extreme Balkanization of America:

If you treat someone as an antagonist, eventually they will become an antagonist.  If black people go in thinking every white person is a racist, they're going to be looking at every decision they make in the worst possible light, even if that decision doesn't involve the black person.  People don't like bending over backwards to please the small minority of people that demand that sort of thing, so there will eventually be fewer and fewer people doing that and a lot of them will soon just say "fark it" and suddenly you've got presidential candidates that make David Duke look like Barack Obama, because the actual people of this world are tired of being browbeat by social justice advocates (mostly white, BTW) for not considering minorities in every little decision they make.

I mean, it's bad enough we got Trump out of the deal the last time.  And it's another reason why I say that the liberals who support this "sorry for being white/male/straight" attitude that they haven't learned their lesson from 2016.  People are tired of this shiat from the left, who think their shiat doesn't stink just because the shiat coming from the right reeks like a corpse flower. They're already tired of dealing with the right's bullshiat, stop making them deal with yours, or you're going to get more than a few answers along the lines of "Well, you already think I'm racist, so (N) get the fark out of here."
 
2020-06-14 5:48:18 AM  
Cell phone videos have provided a window in which to see first hand experience racism. Through these videos I am able to clearly see and experience what the African American community is experiencing.

I get it. I understand. I want to help affect change with you. I support you in your endeavors so all men are created equal can live in peace and have the same opportunities and liberties other Americans can enjoy without a boot/knee, bullet, harassment or racism.

This land is your land too.

/Respect and Love
 
2020-06-14 5:49:28 AM  

chucknasty: I grew up in rural Colorado. there were literally no black people in my town (there wee Hispanics and Native Americans but when talked about it was always prefaced by 'you know how they are'). the open and overt racism I was exposed to in my youth is jarring to think about now. when I went to college I met actual black people and gay people and people from China, Japan, Korea, Europe, every where.
that was the biggest part of my education. I still owe them all a debt for being patient and answering my stupid questions. I was naive and needed the info. I truly didn't get it.
the moment it truly crystalized for me, what racism looks like, was while I was at work. my black coworker and I needed to go to the store to buy stuff for work. his parents were very wealthy lawyers in NYC, I was poor white trash. he drove a Porsche. he was an awesome person. and when we got to the store I noticed we were being followed. that never happened to me. I asked him if they thought I was going to steal something. he said 'no, they think I will.'
we talked in the car on the way back to work and he explained that happened on a daily basis. he just ignored it. the concept that the son of millionaires had to endure that on a regular basis was just jarring. I had no idea.

also, the LGBT folks taught me a lot. there is a whole lot of soul searching that goes into coming out. openly gay people and trans people are very comfortable about who and what they are. there is definitely some affectation but that can be forgiven. you are talking to a very self aware person. I have always admired that. unfortunately I think as a result I find myself attracted to lesbians and that doesn't tend to work out well.

this is probably why the right dislikes college education. it tends to come with developing an empathy for others. it certainly did for me. I am a staunch supporter of others who are different than myself.

I would encourage black students to be patient. you don't change a mind in a single conversation. if the instilled belief is deeply lodged it can take a while.

but that is anecdotal.


It's statements like "the right dislikes education" that indicate a desire to replace it (education) with your politics.  What does that even mean?  Is "the right" to you just bubba at the racetrack or some other stereotype?

Politics and education are not the same thing.  We have something remarkable in the U.S., a place where we can use open forums to create and express new ideas. These don't exist in much of the world. Education requires structure, which can lead to bias and in the most negative, attempts at indoctrination, which is at odds with complete freedom of expression.

But replacing one form of indoctrination with another, or attempting to squelch ideas that are not inherently objectionable, for a political purpose, is not the way to go.
 
2020-06-14 5:51:00 AM  

Animatronik: dark brew: Animatronik: This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.

America has a 240+ year history of telling one biased story.  If you think demanding some change to systemic racist practices is political because it levels the playing field, that says a lot about you and what you fear to loose.

And so goes the culture of racial intimidation.

In two sentences, you turn the discussion back on me with ad hominem statements, without addressing my point, insteading reinforcing it.


Racial intimidation?? It's farking systemic!
Blacks and Hispanics score 11 points lower, on average, than whites on the LSAT.  Are they stupider??  They just can't grasp the logic taught on that test? The playing field is not level.
This is entirely about systemic issues.  Take your ad hominem objections and shove them.
 
2020-06-14 5:56:00 AM  

IlGreven: My problem with the race issue is my same problem with every other issue involving politics and/or social justice, and that problem is contributing to the extreme Balkanization of America:

If you treat someone as an antagonist, eventually they will become an antagonist.  If black people go in thinking every white person is a racist, they're going to be looking at every decision they make in the worst possible light, even if that decision doesn't involve the black person.  People don't like bending over backwards to please the small minority of people that demand that sort of thing, so there will eventually be fewer and fewer people doing that and a lot of them will soon just say "fark it" and suddenly you've got presidential candidates that make David Duke look like Barack Obama, because the actual people of this world are tired of being browbeat by social justice advocates (mostly white, BTW) for not considering minorities in every little decision they make.

I mean, it's bad enough we got Trump out of the deal the last time.  And it's another reason why I say that the liberals who support this "sorry for being white/male/straight" attitude that they haven't learned their lesson from 2016.  People are tired of this shiat from the left, who think their shiat doesn't stink just because the shiat coming from the right reeks like a corpse flower. They're already tired of dealing with the right's bullshiat, stop making them deal with yours, or you're going to get more than a few answers along the lines of "Well, you already think I'm racist, so (N) get the fark out of here."


Cool, your premise is flawed so the rest of your shiat is stupid. Black people don't think every white person is racist, they think the entire system is racist.  They also don't care if you have to "bend over backwards" for a privilege you expect.  So fark off.
 
2020-06-14 6:07:03 AM  

dark brew: wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race. I know it's extra work and probably frustrating but people of color can't just sit back and say "you figure it out on your own." That doesn't seem to lead anywhere good.

The schools? Hire more people of color, get better textbooks and curriculum.  I realize there are political roadblocks in these things but asking the marginalised to just shed those shackles and work overtime isn't the answer.


when I went to high school, the history textbooks were amazingly bad.  they whitwashed everything.

Since they all come out of Texas, everyone is still probably using the same textbooks.
 
2020-06-14 6:08:45 AM  

IlGreven: My problem with the race issue is my same problem with every other issue involving politics and/or social justice, and that problem is contributing to the extreme Balkanization of America:

If you treat someone as an antagonist, eventually they will become an antagonist.  If black people go in thinking every white person is a racist, they're going to be looking at every decision they make in the worst possible light, even if that decision doesn't involve the black person.  People don't like bending over backwards to please the small minority of people that demand that sort of thing, so there will eventually be fewer and fewer people doing that and a lot of them will soon just say "fark it" and suddenly you've got presidential candidates that make David Duke look like Barack Obama, because the actual people of this world are tired of being browbeat by social justice advocates (mostly white, BTW) for not considering minorities in every little decision they make.

I mean, it's bad enough we got Trump out of the deal the last time.  And it's another reason why I say that the liberals who support this "sorry for being white/male/straight" attitude that they haven't learned their lesson from 2016.  People are tired of this shiat from the left, who think their shiat doesn't stink just because the shiat coming from the right reeks like a corpse flower. They're already tired of dealing with the right's bullshiat, stop making them deal with yours, or you're going to get more than a few answers along the lines of "Well, you already think I'm racist, so (N) get the fark out of here."


Wut?
LOL.

I'm not black.

And, I don't know why, all this nation does, should not be scrutinized?

History, read some.
And I only mean the last 50 years. Not even talking about slavery.
I'm talking about acting like those cops was trying to cuff Rodney King.


WTF?
I'm with Chris Rock.
If both applicants are exactly the same, the white guy can try again.
Sorry not sorry.
You can't start the race ahead of everyone and then cry. About anything.
 
2020-06-14 6:10:44 AM  

Animatronik: .

It's statements like "the right dislikes education" that indicate a desire to replace it (education) with your politics.  What does that even mean?  Is "the right" to you just bubba at the racetrack or some other stereotype?

Politics and education are not the same thing.  We have something remarkable in the U.S., a place where we can use open forums to create and express new ideas. These don't exist in much of the world. Education requires structure, which can lead to bias and in the most negative, attempts at indoctrination, which is at odds with complete freedom of expression.

But replacing one form of indoctrination with another, or attempting to squelch ideas that are not inherently objectionable, for a political purpose, is not the way to go.


The Right, actively seeks to not fund schools. WTF!
 
2020-06-14 6:12:57 AM  

pup.socket: This is followed by a list of demands that the author is presumably arguing in favor of that are poorly presented, seem poorly defined and when this broad and unclear, can bring any result whatsoever, from making no difference, to being applied unfairly and causing damage.


This kind of thing has sadly become a well-entrenched tactic of social (in)justice activists, particularly those who have feminist backgrounds. Vague demands benefit activists personally, but not the communities they serve, and are ultimately antithetical to improving conditions for marginalized communities.

Demands that are too vague to ever satisfy are wonderful for activists because they provide endless ammunition for the activists themselves to keep themselves in the public eye by claiming that their demands have been ignored. It also allows activists to hawk themselves out as consultants to overly wealthy white people who want to be more sensitive to the needs of the marginalized but can't navigate the intentionally vague minefield of what is and is not acceptable white behavior this week.

The marginalized communities these kinds of activists claim to serve, however, don't benefit because vague demands don't solve real problems--problems like getting shot by police or being denied access to employment. Lack of improvement plays into the activists' hands even further, increasing their own support within their own communities, because the problems they claim to fight against never go away.

"Defund the police" is a perfect example of social justice warrior activists using vague demands to shoot the persecuted in the feet by branding "police reform" with a slogan that too vague to be meaningful and is trivially easy for police unions and conservatives to defeat.

Marginalized communities need a step change in the quality of their activist representation if anything is to improve.

The gay and lesbian communities did activism right and have been able to fight their way to social acceptance over the past 20-30 years. The African-American community continues to do activism wrong and has nothing to show for its efforts for five decades. There should be a lesson here.
 
2020-06-14 6:17:39 AM  

Animatronik: This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.


been through America's school systems.  it's a little late to be worried about becoming mediocre or irrelevant.
 
2020-06-14 6:21:17 AM  

Animatronik: Politics and education are not the same thing.


I would disagree. philosophy teaches how to weigh if a statement is valid. there are logically consistent arguments for being prolife (and there are valid arguments that aren't based on the premise 'god said so'). but education is how you learn how to tell when a person is lying. pretty clear that logical consistency is not really a strong point for the GOP.

I guess I should amend my statement. politics and education SHOULD be the same thing. stupid people voting leads to stupid policy. we are seeing the truth of that as I type.

conservatives do not bring 'new' ideas to forums. they bring old ones by definition. using 'indoctrination' to mean 'question everything' is telling. we have always been at war with eastasia.

war is peace 
freedom is slavery 
ignorance is strength

but you probably have a traitor monument to protect. I will stop typing.
 
2020-06-14 6:24:29 AM  

WalkingSedgwick: pup.socket: This is followed by a list of demands that the author is presumably arguing in favor of that are poorly presented, seem poorly defined and when this broad and unclear, can bring any result whatsoever, from making no difference, to being applied unfairly and causing damage.

This kind of thing has sadly become a well-entrenched tactic of social (in)justice activists, particularly those who have feminist backgrounds. Vague demands benefit activists personally, but not the communities they serve, and are ultimately antithetical to improving conditions for marginalized communities.

Demands that are too vague to ever satisfy are wonderful for activists because they provide endless ammunition for the activists themselves to keep themselves in the public eye by claiming that their demands have been ignored. It also allows activists to hawk themselves out as consultants to overly wealthy white people who want to be more sensitive to the needs of the marginalized but can't navigate the intentionally vague minefield of what is and is not acceptable white behavior this week.

The marginalized communities these kinds of activists claim to serve, however, don't benefit because vague demands don't solve real problems--problems like getting shot by police or being denied access to employment. Lack of improvement plays into the activists' hands even further, increasing their own support within their own communities, because the problems they claim to fight against never go away.

"Defund the police" is a perfect example of social justice warrior activists using vague demands to shoot the persecuted in the feet by branding "police reform" with a slogan that too vague to be meaningful and is trivially easy for police unions and conservatives to defeat.

Marginalized communities need a step change in the quality of their activist representation if anything is to improve.

The gay and lesbian communities did activism right and have been able to fight their way to social acceptance over the past 20-30 years. The African-American community continues to do activism wrong and has nothing to show for its efforts for five decades. There should be a lesson here.


There is a lesson here. It's not to listen to racist pricks like you.  I am so ready to hear how gay rights activists did their protests "right" and black activists didn't.  How should black people fight against systemic racism in a country founded upon it?  You've got all the answers, please tell me how they should respond.
 
2020-06-14 6:29:42 AM  

dark brew: Blacks and Hispanics score 11 points lower, on average, than whites on the LSAT. Are they stupider?? They just can't grasp the logic taught on that test? The playing field is not level.


The playing field isn't level because growing up in insecure circumstances (food insecurity, unstable housing, unsafe community, etc), or in outright poverty, does horrendous damage to childhood development. By the time someone is in a position to take graduate education tests, the damage is already done. Giving people a leg-up, in the form of selectively lower standards, at that stage only leads to higher dropout/washout rates as unprepared students fall behind and quit.

Leveling the playing field means starting early by funding things like Head Start, enforcing reasonable standards for rental and low income housing, making schools and communities safe (rather than over-policed) and, above all else, providing secure employment/income for all.

It can be done. It just takes (tax) money and an elite that gives a damn about its people.
 
2020-06-14 6:44:17 AM  
I like where this thread is going.
popcorn.gif
 
2020-06-14 7:01:26 AM  

WalkingSedgwick: a well-entrenched tactic of social (in)justice activists


When I was a lot younger, I got involved in the effort to topple the Communist regime in one country of the former Soviet bloc, in a small role. I was still in high school, very inexperienced, quite radical and a lot less liberal than I am today.

I did and said things that today I'd get a cringe from, but while I know that it was theoretically possible to do better, I'm quite okay with my cringe-worthy actions at the time, well, except maybe one or two. If anything, I'm sorry we were too circumspect and not radical enough at times, on one hand; and on the other that we did not learn enough to get smarter faster.

Reading through the article reminds me in a way of my younger self - I was acutely aware of a huge social injustice, which was hurting my country badly and which I wanted fixed, but at the time, for lack of knowledge and experience, I could not explain well many aspects of the problem nor analyze and criticise adequately and in full proposed solutions and measures.

I got into a lot of arguments about politics and economics, many times with people smarter than me, I listened carefully to all and quite soon found out that being aware and passionate isn't enough if you want to make a difference.

You have to be able to understand and explain well, sometimes in intricate detail what's bothering you, and when you're proposing a solution, you have to be able to account for these in order get the other stakeholders, even the antagonistic ones - especially the antagonistic ones if they are powerful - to accept your point.

This is what I find somewhat lacking in TFA, and what the author should be working harder at. But I would not discourage her from trying to set right what she feels is wrong.
 
2020-06-14 7:05:19 AM  

WalkingSedgwick: dark brew: Blacks and Hispanics score 11 points lower, on average, than whites on the LSAT. Are they stupider?? They just can't grasp the logic taught on that test? The playing field is not level.

The playing field isn't level because growing up in insecure circumstances (food insecurity, unstable housing, unsafe community, etc), or in outright poverty, does horrendous damage to childhood development. By the time someone is in a position to take graduate education tests, the damage is already done. Giving people a leg-up, in the form of selectively lower standards, at that stage only leads to higher dropout/washout rates as unprepared students fall behind and quit.

Leveling the playing field means starting early by funding things like Head Start, enforcing reasonable standards for rental and low income housing, making schools and communities safe (rather than over-policed) and, above all else, providing secure employment/income for all.

It can be done. It just takes (tax) money and an elite that gives a damn about its people.


Yeah, it's systemic as you've laid out, but does that mean we give up on those who we've already failed? Should there be no curve at all for overcoming poverty, even though legacy admits breeze through every institution? Who is more likely to fund all those programs you mentioned?  Even if the attrition rate was higher for under prepared poor students, isn't there a benefit in the upward mobility for generations of the students who so survive even given their lack of preparation?
 
2020-06-14 7:19:15 AM  

pup.socket: Megathuma: This is worth reading.

It is to someone like you who is exposed to the environment and knows what the author is talking about (and it is probably targeting this audience) and can fill out the blanks, but to someone like myself who is not a part of the US academia and has not lived in the US, it is nearly incomprehensible.

The argument is very abstract, it is really hard to understand the source of frustration of the author from the discussion of the first two or three legal cases she's describing, and there are only glimpses of what's troubling her (like the Jim Crow episode).

This is followed by a list of demands that the author is presumably arguing in favor of that are poorly presented, seem poorly defined and when this broad and unclear, can bring any result whatsoever, from making no difference, to being applied unfairly and causing damage.

While I can understand the frustration of having to explain yourself over and over again, sometimes it is necessary to do it, and try to get more and more articulated as you go forward.

I would presume twice over when you're an aspiring young lawyer.


That's how I felt reading it as well. Aside from the Jim Crow incident, which was tactless and hurtful ( intentionally or not ), there were no actual examples of what she's 'correcting' in the classroom.

But then it's damned if you do, because asking her what she means is expecting the same emotional labour from her that she's complaining about.
 
2020-06-14 7:28:23 AM  
Okay, so stop.
Nobody's holding a gun to your head.
Oh, wait.....................
 
2020-06-14 7:37:06 AM  
I'll admit it as a black guy - we in general can be as soft as hell politically on you all.

You can't "teach" anyone out of racism just like you can't force anyone to stop smoking simply by education alone. You need heavy reinforcements to accomplish those actions by putting the fear of God into the white political structure.
 
2020-06-14 7:56:16 AM  

dark brew: wax_on: The schools? Hire more people of color, get better textbooks and curriculum.  I realize there are political roadblocks in these things but asking the marginalised to just shed those shackles and work overtime isn't the answer.


If you go to an engineering school, you'd think the US was located somewhere near Kyrgyzstan (between India, China, and Russia) and was 100% male.
 
2020-06-14 8:01:50 AM  
Black students are tired of teaching white students how not to be racist

Pretty sure a lot of them are tired learning about it.
 
2020-06-14 8:07:44 AM  

dark brew: Animatronik: dark brew: Animatronik: This isn't about education, it's about control.

The list of demands this group presented to the dean includes bimonthly meetings with this minority group to discuss progress and constructing a searchable database to rate professors on racial issues so that they can be shamed or punished if they don't meet a standard created by this group.

This isn't about education or improving dialog.  This is about hammering groups of people into submission for political purposes.

Slavery is America's original sin, and racial issues are an important topic of study, but when we act as if "education" means the wholesale handover of control of curricula and intimidating professors, we follow a short road to mediocrity and irrelevance.

America has a 240+ year history of telling one biased story.  If you think demanding some change to systemic racist practices is political because it levels the playing field, that says a lot about you and what you fear to loose.

And so goes the culture of racial intimidation.

In two sentences, you turn the discussion back on me with ad hominem statements, without addressing my point, insteading reinforcing it.

Racial intimidation?? It's farking systemic!
Blacks and Hispanics score 11 points lower, on average, than whites on the LSAT.  Are they stupider??  They just can't grasp the logic taught on that test? The playing field is not level.
This is entirely about systemic issues.  Take your ad hominem objections and shove them.


The problem is ethics. Black people and Hispanics have them, which means they are too qualified to become lawyers.

Look, you're not going to be able to Harrison Bergeron demographic groups into complete uniformity. There are interest differences in egalitarian groups. There's no national level social reason that one tiny demographic group should have 60% of the physics Nobel prizes, and yet here we are.
 
2020-06-14 8:16:25 AM  
Where I'm from the local First Nation (indigenous) people are having their own debates re:BLM and who/how/if, and fights broke out when a few issued a statement without consulting the elders.

/ don't post opinions for any group (even if you're a part of it) until you've talked to the rest of them... or at least a lot of them
 
2020-06-14 8:18:47 AM  

dark brew: WalkingSedgwick: pup.socket: This is followed by a list of demands that the author is presumably arguing in favor of that are poorly presented, seem poorly defined and when this broad and unclear, can bring any result whatsoever, from making no difference, to being applied unfairly and causing damage.

This kind of thing has sadly become a well-entrenched tactic of social (in)justice activists, particularly those who have feminist backgrounds. Vague demands benefit activists personally, but not the communities they serve, and are ultimately antithetical to improving conditions for marginalized communities.

Demands that are too vague to ever satisfy are wonderful for activists because they provide endless ammunition for the activists themselves to keep themselves in the public eye by claiming that their demands have been ignored. It also allows activists to hawk themselves out as consultants to overly wealthy white people who want to be more sensitive to the needs of the marginalized but can't navigate the intentionally vague minefield of what is and is not acceptable white behavior this week.

The marginalized communities these kinds of activists claim to serve, however, don't benefit because vague demands don't solve real problems--problems like getting shot by police or being denied access to employment. Lack of improvement plays into the activists' hands even further, increasing their own support within their own communities, because the problems they claim to fight against never go away.

"Defund the police" is a perfect example of social justice warrior activists using vague demands to shoot the persecuted in the feet by branding "police reform" with a slogan that too vague to be meaningful and is trivially easy for police unions and conservatives to defeat.

Marginalized communities need a step change in the quality of their activist representation if anything is to improve.

The gay and lesbian communities did activism right and have been able to fight their way to social acceptance over the past 20-30 years. The African-American community continues to do activism wrong and has nothing to show for its efforts for five decades. There should be a lesson here.

There is a lesson here. It's not to listen to racist pricks like you.  I am so ready to hear how gay rights activists did their protests "right" and black activists didn't.  How should black people fight against systemic racism in a country founded upon it?  You've got all the answers, please tell me how they should respond.


Stonewall was a police riot just like we're seeing police riots now.
 
2020-06-14 8:36:49 AM  
I think teaching crisis intervention and conflict resolution might help. There is a program that helped right a rape epidemic that takes the stance of teaching people how to address a bad situation. Its something we don't touch on that I think is missing from our culture. But as someone pointing out, a lot of people grow up in very white areas. They have no personal experience with it. So the only way to learn about it is by asking someone with experience. Now if we know people are going to be asked, it would be helpful to facilitate that conversation. I think there is a grain of truth at a young age that some jerks are less racist and more opportunistic bullying/ fear of other. But I suspect as people age, the more it becomes entrenched rasicm.

https://www.nomeansnoworldwide.org/
 
2020-06-14 8:43:28 AM  

JRoo: It's hard to convince people that they are pieces of shiat.

I'll tell someone, "Hey, you are a sack of shiat."

They just never agree with me for some reason.

Especially when you are trying to convince them that the color of their skin is the reason they are a sack of shiat.


There's a large portion of white people who are not terrible, but don't see what black people are saying.  They think things are blown out of proportion, abusing black people racially by police is made up, and when it does happen, is rare.  Convince someone who has been a decent person, don't abuse people for the color of their skin, never seen it happen, that it does happen, and it would be great if they helped in some way to change things is a battle.  I can't even get some of them to think voting by mail is okay.

As for your last statement, that is racist.  Assuming people are terrible based on the color of their skin, is by definition racist.  If you're telling white people they're racist sack of crap, based only on them being white, and not anything that individual said or did, that is wrong.  Someone not seeing the problem, is not the same as being part of the problem.
 
2020-06-14 8:50:23 AM  
Adding to the Black Man's (and Woman's) Burden
 
2020-06-14 8:50:55 AM  
Once again,, Slate is full of shiat.

Luckily, the Fark community has the wisdom to set the record straight.
 
2020-06-14 8:52:19 AM  
I've taught a bunch of minority literature courses, mostly African-American and Native Studies literature, as well as year after year of freshman comp, where issues about racism tend to come up.

I have had a lot of students who have never been exposed to a lot of racial issues, in part because they come from pretty homogenous backgrounds - why is blackface bad? Why would it ever be offensive to say Asians are good at math? Etc. They're still figuring stuff out - I mean, come on, they're eighteen. I was a farking moron when I was eighteen, and I try to keep that in mind when I hold their hands through these conversations.

Because I taught so long in the upper Midwest, I frequently had classrooms with very few or no non-white students, and the ones I had, oh man. Those poor folks got looked at a lot to explain "how black people feel" or "how Native people feel." And it sucked for them. First of all, James over there isn't "black people," he's James, and secondly, he is also eighteen and trying to figure his own shiat out. He can talk about his own experience, sure, but it's not fair to require him to do it on command, every time, and expect him to represent every black person ever. But that was frequently what he was asked to do by classmates.

Also, white girls from small towns, if you want to do one good goddamned thing to improve race relations, do not ask your black classmates if you can touch their hair.
 
2020-06-14 9:00:57 AM  
ITT: A shiatload of white people whitesplaining racism to each other.

This is saddest thread I've seen here for a long time, and that's saying something.
 
2020-06-14 9:02:58 AM  

KingOfTown: ITT: A shiatload of white people whitesplaining racism to each other.

This is saddest thread I've seen here for a long time, and that's saying something.


At least they're finally acknowledging it.
 
2020-06-14 9:10:30 AM  
As unfair as it may be to the Black student, it is very, very unfair to the white teacher who has to teach the black history class in this day and age.

I used to teach Jazz History, which was technically considered a Black History class.  I certainly met several students who scoffed at the idea of me teaching the class and discussing race issues - but the fact that less than 1% of the black students (or any students, for that matter) I had in the class knew anything about Jazz or the time period eventually put the ball in my court.

It still makes me sad that so few young black students know anything about their musical history - which happens to be one of the great American arts.
 
2020-06-14 9:19:35 AM  

wax_on: Who else is going to do it then? It's not like people become not racists all by themselves or by talking to other people of their same race.


Racism is a learned behavior.  You don't have to learn anything to be not racist.
 
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