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(Marketwatch)   Jeffrey (Bond King) Gundlach: "Covid has shown me that white-collar managers don't do any actual work and we should probably fire all of these people"   (marketwatch.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Management, middle management, giant BP PLC, Jeffrey Gundlach, Federal Reserve System, Federal Reserve, bulk of those losses, ax white-collar jobs  
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1593 clicks; posted to Business » on 10 Jun 2020 at 11:17 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-10 10:42:25 AM  
I have been dealing with two different licensed insurance agents over the last couple weeks. It has become apparent that their hourly employees are the ones who actually do their work and know how their system functions. They are floundering without their Underling. I feel bad for the employees they let go and anyone who has to deal with this type of licensed dumb bunny.

Note to Agents: Your customer is not your secretary.
 
2020-06-10 11:37:39 AM  
I've been getting stress from a middle manager to document everything on a client file to get it ready for delivery each month. Part of "disaster recovery".

1 - it's far too damn complicated to write it all down, and most of it can't be written down because it changes every month
2 - no I will not provide the training document for a potential replacement working for 1/4th my salary in whatever developing nation we're trying to move work to this year
 
2020-06-10 11:44:30 AM  
B Ark.

/Keep the telephone disinfection people though.
 
2020-06-10 11:55:49 AM  
CEO's, CFO's, MOFO's etc... only care about the bottom line and meetings to pat each other on the back.
 
2020-06-10 12:00:55 PM  
"Eliminating the middleman is never as simple as it sounds" (Firefly)
Youtube IFyxmdnv3qE
 
2020-06-10 12:04:48 PM  

Jackal_N: I have been dealing with two different licensed insurance agents over the last couple weeks


My daughter used to work for an agency back in the 00's.  The people who owned the agency had no clue how the business was run.
 
2020-06-10 12:19:19 PM  
Cut out the Middleman..Fartology by Benny Hill
Youtube nMNA9vM5aAU
 
2020-06-10 12:22:35 PM  
Middle managers are worthless twunts.  They are never hired because they know anything about the business or what the employees they will be managing actually do.  They're hired to crack the whip whenever production isn't fast enough or the numbers aren't where the boss wants them.  They don't know how the things they want done get done, they just demand their underlings do them, even if what they're asking is, in fact, impossible -- or at least incredibly impractical, inefficient, or pointless.
 
2020-06-10 12:24:22 PM  
"I wonder where they've gone. It seems like the people who work for them are constantly in contact with me doing all this work and some of the supervisory, middle-management people, I'm starting to wonder if I really need them," said Gundlach, who adds that his discussions with peers reveals the same.

I had to quit my job and switch to part time consulting. Taking care of small kids does not mix with 6 hours of meetings per day (plus 3-4 hours of actual work). The childless people in my office don't have that issue. It's not good or bad or anyone's fault - it just is.
 
2020-06-10 12:24:55 PM  
qph.fs.quoracdn.netView Full Size
 
2020-06-10 12:41:04 PM  
Wanna talk about lazy people?

Let's talk about county workers.
 
2020-06-10 12:41:45 PM  
I think the end of it is that:
oversight/watch dog is the same at all levers everywhere.


I would not expect the fry basket cook actually gives a rat's about the job or quality on their own. Even if they were paid so much one might assume that makes it so someone will now care and self watch dog.

Conservation of energy is an omnipresent program in all life on earth. That does not mean conserving anything but your own immediate personal energy. That is the only thing it applies to.


So it is easy to predict that everyone who is paid to do a job will always be, over time, without planning it or thinking about, still discovering what the minimum effort is that can be put in to keep getting the pay check.


Take a close look at all the people in any work place that are considered to have seniority. You will find the ranks filled with a good % the least working people in the organization. They have the most xp with knowing what the minimum bar is to not need to go over.

The vast majority of middle "manager" positions are honestly just police/oversight/watch dogs to the actually getting the chit done laborers.

So i'd say the real issues we have is that the position is treated as far more than it really is and thus consumes an inappropriate amount of the labor expense resources.


This was a slow to evolve situation from our thousands year old system of family/apprentice passed on training/knowledge. There was a time when what you knew and what you could do was what moved you up the "ladder" so to speak. Where the "boss" as actually the venerable master of whatever the craft/skills were of those they over see.


Now we have a system of watch dogs who over see work they are not themselves qualified to do.

It used to make sense that the venerable master of the craft that over sees everyone else doing the same thing, to a lesser ability than them, would earn more than them.

The situation faster than we evolved the systems we invent to go to go with it. Now we have watch dogs/police as who fills that oversight role now, and so yeah the pay structures need to reflect that reality.


Also the assumed amount of responsibility those roles could be taking on anyway. If they can't actually judge the work but just police if someone is following the expectations laid out for them. That's a really different role than it used to be.
 
2020-06-10 12:41:50 PM  
Only the middle managers? You're not wrong, but keep going up the ladder and you'll find more uselessness.
 
2020-06-10 12:45:56 PM  
No shiat?

Jebus, I had a director in the late 80's that we openly talked about because NO ONE knew what, if anything, he did.  This is as old as word itself.

My opinion?  Fire your micromanagers.  If they have an actual job to do, it doesn't involve supervising every goddamned thing every one of their people do and insistently making every decision themselves.  That isn't work and it isn't productive.  If they had actual work to do, they'd be doing it.  So either they don't have any work to do that doesn't involve harassing their own staff, or they're choosing not to do it.
 
2020-06-10 12:47:57 PM  
I had a college business course years ago. The idea of the course was that with a proper data base/management program in place your could reduce a company to only 3-4 levels. I think that is true. The problem is that the program has to be custom tweaked for every company.
 
2020-06-10 12:51:22 PM  

Marcos P: Wanna talk about lazy people?

Let's talk about county workers.


Want to talk about serious assholes?  Let's talk about the people who think government workers don't work.
 
2020-06-10 12:53:34 PM  
Of course middle management doesn't do anything, I thought we all knew this decades ago. The point of middle management is to get biatched at and blamed. Upper management tells them to get stuff done which isn't under their control so if they fail the middle manager gets blames and if they succeed the upper management takes credit.

Meanwhile the workers who do things get angry at the middle manger above them for cracking the whip and asking for impossible task instead of at the upper management who ordered the impossible things to get done. Without middle management the workers get pissed at the people responsible and the upper management people have nobody to blame for their failures.

A good middle manger realizes all of this and just tells their workers what needs to be done and lets them do it without micromanaging.
 
2020-06-10 1:02:56 PM  
Without any middle-management, who will remind me to include the new fax cover page for my weekly TPM reports?
 
2020-06-10 1:16:01 PM  

Psychopusher: Middle managers are worthless twunts.  They are never hired because they know anything about the business or what the employees they will be managing actually do.  They're hired to crack the whip whenever production isn't fast enough or the numbers aren't where the boss wants them.  They don't know how the things they want done get done, they just demand their underlings do them, even if what they're asking is, in fact, impossible -- or at least incredibly impractical, inefficient, or pointless.


comb.ioView Full Size
 
2020-06-10 1:18:15 PM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Marcos P: Wanna talk about lazy people?

Let's talk about county workers.

Want to talk about serious assholes?  Let's talk about the people who think government workers don't work.


Well Th at opens up a discussion about "productive " work
 
2020-06-10 1:20:05 PM  
Someone has never heard of the Peter Principle.

The worker bees know how everything works.

The managers---the well-meaning ones anyway---are the people who know how things used to work. They were hired to do the work, not oversee the people who now do the work (better than they did, for any of a number or reasons).

Much of my time is devoted to explaining my work to my manager, so she can summarize it to her own superiors. She is not lazy, stupid or incompetent, by any meaningful measure, and her people skills leave mine far behind, but her understanding of what I actually do is limited at best, unless it's related to an in-house application that she helped devise herself many years ago.

There are days when I wonder wouldn't it be far more efficient for the worker bees like me to e-mail the superiors directly, rather than play the e-mail equivalent of schoolyard telephone.

Gundlach has presumably been having similar days.
 
2020-06-10 1:36:16 PM  

Anenu: A good middle manger realizes all of this and just tells their workers what needs to be done and lets them do it without micromanaging.


A good middle manager is simply a shiat filter.

Deal with your people, get shiat done, don't let anything bad get to your bosses so that they believe you're handling it all and don't feel the need to come piss in your silo.

Deal with the absolutely stupid bullshiat that comes down from your bosses, many of whom think screaming and threats are an effective management tool, so that it doesn't kill your team morale and drive good people away.
 
2020-06-10 1:44:52 PM  

MikeyFuccon: There are days when I wonder wouldn't it be far more efficient for the worker bees like me to e-mail the superiors directly, rather than play the e-mail equivalent of schoolyard telephone.


Well, I'll tell you why, because, engineers are not good at dealing with customers. management
 
2020-06-10 2:11:28 PM  

FarkingChas: I had a college business course years ago. The idea of the course was that with a proper data base/management program in place your could reduce a company to only 3-4 levels. I think that is true. The problem is that the program has to be custom tweaked for every company.


Tweak the company to work with the DB/M program, instead, then.
 
2020-06-10 2:24:23 PM  
Sure, let all the developers report straight to the VP.  He/she will love talking with those anti-social weirdos over the phone every day.

A good middle-manager actually DOESN'T do the actual work because they make sure the team is functional.  A manager's job is to keep the team on task and pointed in the direction the business needs.
 
2020-06-10 2:28:13 PM  

PvtStash: I think the end of it is that:
oversight/watch dog is the same at all levers everywhere.


I would not expect the fry basket cook actually gives a rat's about the job or quality on their own. Even if they were paid so much one might assume that makes it so someone will now care and self watch dog.

Conservation of energy is an omnipresent program in all life on earth. That does not mean conserving anything but your own immediate personal energy. That is the only thing it applies to.


So it is easy to predict that everyone who is paid to do a job will always be, over time, without planning it or thinking about, still discovering what the minimum effort is that can be put in to keep getting the pay check.


Take a close look at all the people in any work place that are considered to have seniority. You will find the ranks filled with a good % the least working people in the organization. They have the most xp with knowing what the minimum bar is to not need to go over.

The vast majority of middle "manager" positions are honestly just police/oversight/watch dogs to the actually getting the chit done laborers.

So i'd say the real issues we have is that the position is treated as far more than it really is and thus consumes an inappropriate amount of the labor expense resources.


This was a slow to evolve situation from our thousands year old system of family/apprentice passed on training/knowledge. There was a time when what you knew and what you could do was what moved you up the "ladder" so to speak. Where the "boss" as actually the venerable master of whatever the craft/skills were of those they over see.


Now we have a system of watch dogs who over see work they are not themselves qualified to do.

It used to make sense that the venerable master of the craft that over sees everyone else doing the same thing, to a lesser ability than them, would earn more than them.

The situation faster than we evolved the systems we invent to go to go with it. Now we have watc ...


The fact that you wrote essentially the same sentence twenty times makes me think you might be one of those unnecessary middle managers.
 
2020-06-10 3:14:55 PM  

The Googles Do Nothing: Sure, let all the developers report straight to the VP.  He/she will love talking with those anti-social weirdos over the phone every day.

A good middle-manager actually DOESN'T do the actual work because they make sure the team is functional.  A manager's job is to keep the team on task and pointed in the direction the business needs.


When I did it I saw my job as two things. Make sure my peeps had what they needed to do the job (requirements, design, computer, food, dependencies, whatever) and that I made sure shiat flowed up hill, never down.

The folks above me knew that contacting the team (about work specifics) was a no no. The team knew that all I needed from them were there estimates and any delta (ASAP).

It's not hard, but if the guy in tfa doesn't want to handle it, he needs to hire someone to do it. If he's got the time, then what has *he* been doing all these years?
 
2020-06-10 3:28:11 PM  

gunther_bumpass: PvtStash: I think the end of it is that:
oversight/watch dog is the same at all levers everywhere.


I would not expect the fry basket cook actually gives a rat's about the job or quality on their own. Even if they were paid so much one might assume that makes it so someone will now care and self watch dog.

Conservation of energy is an omnipresent program in all life on earth. That does not mean conserving anything but your own immediate personal energy. That is the only thing it applies to.


So it is easy to predict that everyone who is paid to do a job will always be, over time, without planning it or thinking about, still discovering what the minimum effort is that can be put in to keep getting the pay check.


Take a close look at all the people in any work place that are considered to have seniority. You will find the ranks filled with a good % the least working people in the organization. They have the most xp with knowing what the minimum bar is to not need to go over.

The vast majority of middle "manager" positions are honestly just police/oversight/watch dogs to the actually getting the chit done laborers.

So i'd say the real issues we have is that the position is treated as far more than it really is and thus consumes an inappropriate amount of the labor expense resources.


This was a slow to evolve situation from our thousands year old system of family/apprentice passed on training/knowledge. There was a time when what you knew and what you could do was what moved you up the "ladder" so to speak. Where the "boss" as actually the venerable master of whatever the craft/skills were of those they over see.


Now we have a system of watch dogs who over see work they are not themselves qualified to do.

It used to make sense that the venerable master of the craft that over sees everyone else doing the same thing, to a lesser ability than them, would earn more than them.

The situation faster than we evolved the systems we invent to go to go with it. Now we ...


Nice one, but no.

It is my POV, that there are too many POVs to say anything just one in one single way and imagine you got your idea thought to very man people.

A process of
concept/idea statement
example of it
same idea/concept reiterated in a slightly different way
different example of same thing
and repeat over and over for as many different ways of thinking about it as you can imagine.


I find that anyone who only wanted to say the one thing, without relevant examples, in only one way.
Was not actually that interested in communicating their idea to a lot of different people.

That simpler version is fit only when, preaching to the choir, as it were.
 
2020-06-10 3:33:00 PM  
This is ancient stuff, but over the years, I've found some nuggets of wisdom in these two articles - 'The Hacker FAQ' and 'The Manager FAQ':

https://www.seebs.net/faqs/hacker.htm​l

https://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.ht​m​l
 
2020-06-10 3:36:54 PM  
ITT: A bunch of "hard-working", "in-the-trenches" people who think that this means anything other than companies found a new way to dramatically slash costs while losing extra work on the other at the bottom for little or no additional pay.

Here's the thing, guys: if the middle management at your company feels inept, that's not middle management's fault - it's the fault of the idiots that promoted them beyond their competence, didn't train them, and then refused to get rid of them. And those are the same people making this decision. You really think this is going to end up well for you?

As a side note, anyone who claims to be a great employee and who at the same time shiat-talks different departments, roles, or levels, no matter what their position, is not a good employee. This rule of thumb holds true whether it's a line worker biatching about middle management, middle management biatching about line workers, or executives biatching about middle management. And it's always true.

/Not middle management
//Firing middle management sounds like a great idea until you realize what a time-suck managing every line wither individually is
///Three
 
2020-06-10 3:52:30 PM  
I had a boss who, upon a data breach, gathered us all in a meeting room and told us the code associated with the breach, and then asked us what it meant... He didn't last long after that, but where the douche had been doing middle management his whole career I suspected after he moved that he tended to land in a position to kill time and resume-pad until it was time to move on. Needless to say that the guy presided over a revolving door of workers in the time I knew him.
 
2020-06-10 3:54:34 PM  

MikeyFuccon: Someone has never heard of the Peter Principle.

The worker bees know how everything works.

The managers---the well-meaning ones anyway---are the people who know how things used to work. They were hired to do the work, not oversee the people who now do the work (better than they did, for any of a number or reasons).

Much of my time is devoted to explaining my work to my manager, so she can summarize it to her own superiors. She is not lazy, stupid or incompetent, by any meaningful measure, and her people skills leave mine far behind, but her understanding of what I actually do is limited at best, unless it's related to an in-house application that she helped devise herself many years ago.

There are days when I wonder wouldn't it be far more efficient for the worker bees like me to e-mail the superiors directly, rather than play the e-mail equivalent of schoolyard telephone.

Gundlach has presumably been having similar days.


I think your post is closer to the truth.  It depends on the company and industry.  I am in biotech and am a middle manager.  We know in many cases more about our departments function that anyone above or below us.  We foster and grow our direct reports, providing feedback, training, and manage expenses/vacation time/timelines.  Your typical VP simply doesn't have the time to properly manage more than maybe three to six direct reports.
"Tech" startups are different, the companies likely only operate for a year or two before going bankrupt and can operate as a matrix organization where your knowledge and work ethic determine your influence and employment.
Unskilled labor like restaurants need someone ensuring the business is cleaned at the end of the day, the food orders are correct, and that payroll goes out.  From a personal standpoint, it is likely the managers have a serious personality flaw but they make good money for the business and so it's tolerated.  The owner of the restaurant may opt to do this job, and therefore doesn't need middle management.  I did notice during a visit to McDinalds last year (for the first time in decades), there was a flat screen monitor, you typed in your order, and one of the two employees pushed it onto the counter in a bag from the kitchen.  No cashiers or front staff, only two cooks who also managed the drive through.
Basically, the more complex the product the more you need middle management.  My best guess for the next bigly employment cuts are in local and state government services.  Massive FTE costs from lifetime health/dental and defined benefit pensions many of which are underfunded.  The majority of these services can be performed via a web page.
 
2020-06-10 4:01:19 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Great book, worth a quick read. If you've worked in corp, you have either had or continue to have a bs job. The sad reality of it, our economy is soooooo dependent on that construct remaining that way. So go ahead, fire all those middle managers.
 
2020-06-10 4:39:01 PM  

Psychopusher: Middle managers are worthless twunts.  They are never hired because they know anything about the business or what the employees they will be managing actually do.  They're hired to crack the whip whenever production isn't fast enough or the numbers aren't where the boss wants them.  They don't know how the things they want done get done, they just demand their underlings do them, even if what they're asking is, in fact, impossible -- or at least incredibly impractical, inefficient, or pointless.


You sound like a shiat employee.

Middle managers are paid to take all of the farking heat.  They pick up where the lazy slobs fark up or can't keep up, and they take shiat from upper management who have no idea what anyone does anyway.

You know that policy to crack the whip? Came from the farkers up top who don't have to talk to the employee who has poor production because they are out of the office 3 times a week because of chemo or other chronic condition.

But you sound like a lazy slob who takes no responsibility for your actions, blaming the guy or gal caught in the middle who was hired after you developed your shiat work ethic. Go sit in the rubber room with the rest of the incompetents.
 
2020-06-10 5:10:39 PM  

Jackal_N: I have been dealing with two different licensed insurance agents over the last couple weeks. It has become apparent that their hourly employees are the ones who actually do their work and know how their system functions. They are floundering without their Underling. I feel bad for the employees they let go and anyone who has to deal with this type of licensed dumb bunny.

Note to Agents: Your customer is not your secretary.


I had insurance with American Family.  In a period of five years the agent changed three times, but the admin was still there, so things ran smoothly.  I actually asked at one point when the agents did.  Silence.  "I can't say."
 
2020-06-10 5:17:33 PM  

zeroman987: Psychopusher: Middle managers are worthless twunts.  They are never hired because they know anything about the business or what the employees they will be managing actually do.  They're hired to crack the whip whenever production isn't fast enough or the numbers aren't where the boss wants them.  They don't know how the things they want done get done, they just demand their underlings do them, even if what they're asking is, in fact, impossible -- or at least incredibly impractical, inefficient, or pointless.

You sound like a shiat employee.

Middle managers are paid to take all of the farking heat.  They pick up where the lazy slobs fark up or can't keep up, and they take shiat from upper management who have no idea what anyone does anyway.

You know that policy to crack the whip? Came from the farkers up top who don't have to talk to the employee who has poor production because they are out of the office 3 times a week because of chemo or other chronic condition.

But you sound like a lazy slob who takes no responsibility for your actions, blaming the guy or gal caught in the middle who was hired after you developed your shiat work ethic. Go sit in the rubber room with the rest of the incompetents.


Oh you sound like the kind of person people love to work for.
 
2020-06-10 5:50:46 PM  
Jackal_N:
Note to Agents: Your customer is not your secretary.

That's administrative assistant.  The next thing you know, people will go back to calling flight attendants, stewardresses.
 
2020-06-10 6:06:45 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: This is ancient stuff, but over the years, I've found some nuggets of wisdom in these two articles - 'The Hacker FAQ' and 'The Manager FAQ':

https://www.seebs.net/faqs/hacker.html

https://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.htm​l


Interesting reads - thanks for sharing those.
 
2020-06-10 6:57:49 PM  
Then, come annual evaluation time, explain to a MidMang what you do when I could have just waved my hands about while shouting "PrestO ChangeO" then mumbling about magic and how electrons are not the size of small green peas.
 
2020-06-10 7:35:59 PM  
If you're looking for "no value added", starton Wall Street.
 
2020-06-10 9:13:10 PM  
Middle management, if properly sized and with directors who can delegate properly, is a great boon. I've worked with too many directors and managers who try to take on everything and won't delegate.

If they're working at 90% capacity, they start dropping things during emergencies. Like say... pandemics and social unrest. Followups don't get followed up, documentation ends mid sentence, you find them working at o'fark-thirty in the morning...
 
2020-06-10 11:09:33 PM  

LeroyB: Without any middle-management, who will remind me to include the new fax cover page for my weekly TPM reports?


As a middle manager in quality I feel compelled to point out that it was TPS Coversheet.
 
2020-06-10 11:09:47 PM  

MikeyFuccon: Someone has never heard of the Peter Principle.

The worker bees know how everything works.

The managers---the well-meaning ones anyway---are the people who know how things used to work. They were hired to do the work, not oversee the people who now do the work (better than they did, for any of a number or reasons).

Much of my time is devoted to explaining my work to my manager, so she can summarize it to her own superiors. She is not lazy, stupid or incompetent, by any meaningful measure, and her people skills leave mine far behind, but her understanding of what I actually do is limited at best, unless it's related to an in-house application that she helped devise herself many years ago.

There are days when I wonder wouldn't it be far more efficient for the worker bees like me to e-mail the superiors directly, rather than play the e-mail equivalent of schoolyard telephone.

Gundlach has presumably been having similar days.


I've tried that. The results are mixed.
 
2020-06-10 11:39:37 PM  

Bonzo_1116: LeroyB: Without any middle-management, who will remind me to include the new fax cover page for my weekly TPM reports?

As a middle manager in quality I feel compelled to point out that it was TPS Coversheet.


I must have missed that memo.
 
2020-06-10 11:53:48 PM  
Literally every person who isn't an officer of a company already knew this.
 
2020-06-10 11:59:16 PM  

wood0366: Middle management, if properly sized and with directors who can delegate properly, is a great boon. I've worked with too many directors and managers who try to take on everything and won't delegate.

If they're working at 90% capacity, they start dropping things during emergencies. Like say... pandemics and social unrest. Followups don't get followed up, documentation ends mid sentence, you find them working at o'fark-thirty in the morning...


This is an excellent description.  I worked for someone once who was very much this way.  The problem with his micromanagement and inability to delegate was the first time you needed all hands on neck, he was already floundering at his low-bar 100%.  He'd spend the next months not just unable to do his own job, but, intentionally or not, sabotaging everyone else's work around him.  I don't even bother telling the stories of the insane requests I would get so that he could still flounder-manage, because no one ever believed any of them.

He could have been replaced with someone for 1/10th his compensation and far more work would have occurred.  But to hear a C-level tell it, the company would have fallen apart without him.

Sadly, he ran off a lot of very competent people, though in the end it was good because they all ended up in far better positions than they could have risen to at that company.
 
2020-06-11 8:15:01 AM  
"I wonder where they've gone. It seems like the people who work for them are constantly in contact with me doing all this work and some of the supervisory, middle-management people, I'm starting to wonder if I really need them,"


This is exactly why middle management has always tried to make it as difficult as possible for people to work from home, even if they are supposedly allowed to.  They know that eventually upper management will realize that the middle managers really don't do anything and aren't needed at all.
 
2020-06-11 9:30:17 AM  
They exist to keep costs down.  It's better to pay one person $100k a year to fabricate excuses and create firey hoops to keep 10 employees making $50k a year rather than $75k a year.
 
2020-06-11 10:07:19 AM  
When you work in the IT field, it is expected for your to change jobs about every 6 to 8 years.  Its actually getting to the point where it is a draw back for an employer to see that you were with a company for 20+ years.  They worry you get pigeon holed into a specific infrastructure.  All that is prologue to establish that I have seen my fair share of Office environments in twenty plus years in the industry.

You very quickly learn how long you are going to want to stay at a company based on the quality of the management.  Pay and benefits may have lured an employee, but one of the best paying companies I ever worked for also had an insane turnover rate due to the toxicity of the management.  Most would not stay beyond their 2 year minimum vesting period so they didn't have to repay relocation stipends.  Some wouldn't even wait that long and would just pay a pro-rated penalty to get out of the office.  Remember, these were incredibly well paying jobs with extremely generous benefits packages, and they could not keep qualified employees from leaving.

Alternatively, I worked for another company where most of the management had been either promoted internally, or had a background in Network Infrastructure.  By contrast, our team was incredibly stable over 4 years, with only one or two departures during that time.  Their compensation was competitive, but not overwhelming, yet they maintained the most stable environment I have seen.
 
2020-06-11 11:37:17 AM  

v2micca: When you work in the IT field, it is expected for your to change jobs about every 6 to 8 years.  Its actually getting to the point where it is a draw back for an employer to see that you were with a company for 20+ years.


This is actually true for most jobs anymore.  They all know that they, the companies, don't have any loyalty to their employees and that their benefits packages are all kind of shiatty and you're lucky to get a COL increase annually but never a real raise, so when they see someone that has stayed at the same place for a long time, they figure you lack ambition.  Otherwise, you would be going to the next employer every couple years because you could get $1 a hour more.
 
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