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6948 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jun 2020 at 2:17 AM (25 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:

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For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over again over years do not interfere in or publicly speak about the political process or chain of command without an incrediblygood reason.  Here, GEN Milley has done both. Overtly.

Mattis's letter was a broadside against the office of the president.  This letter is damn near a nuke.

Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

For all the threads that postulate what would happen if Trump loses and refuses to acknowledge that he lost in November through Inaguration in January, this is all the proof that you need that Trump's Presidency would be over.  The military has just been told to adhere to their oath to the Constitution, to the people of the United States.

Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

I really don't think you understand what this is.

When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

The pen is mightier than the sword and cover your ass I think is the idea here.

How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

No, for about the 4th month in a row, we're in uncharted territory.

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

You speak true.

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.  You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders.

Now let's see how many individual officers refuse.

The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow.

The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence.

Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified.

The Pentagon is seriously pissed.  They can't be the bad guys without endangering about a trillion dollars a year in defense spending.

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

The way I read it, the soldiers that have orders to escort police will not accept orders to attack peaceful civilians, and might even intervene if cops get out of line.  So yeah, this is kind of a big deal.

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

I hope this is why the troops in DC seem so calm tonight, they don't have to worry about obeying insane orders.

No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians.

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over again over years do not interfere in or publicly speak about the political process or chain of command without an incrediblygood reason.  Here, GEN Milley has done both. Overtly.

Mattis's letter was a broadside against the office of the president.  This letter is damn near a nuke.

I am pleasantly surprised based on recent fark.com days that yours is the initial message in the thread. Dumb and "controversial" opinions have seemed to always magically been the initial message.

I am overwhelmingly thankful to you personally for the knowledgeable and informative post.

"The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military?

Stupid Guitar: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Given that this is one of the leakiest administrations ever, we'll probably hear about it on Friday.

There's a lot of stuff we dont hear about. The stuff that kellyanne isn't around for. The stuff Ivanka does leak to Maggie Haberman because it would make daddy look bad.

I'm guessing Kelly Anne wouldn't have been in a meeting with fat slob and the joint chiefs, so it wouldn't leak out so easily.

Trump said something to those generals. He told them something or asked them something. Within 24 hours secdef went from talking about battlespaces to the chairman of the joint chiefs putting out this letter.

Something earth shattering had to have been said to generate a letter like this.

My hunch is... after the Bible thing and trump saw all the "fark trump" graffiti, he suggested they arm the troops. He probably asked about apaches and navy seals and snipers and armored divisions rolling in to busy heads.

With that they'd just ignore it, because they've heard it before. I would bet they started hearing about trump and Jared and Miller have side conversations down the chain of command. And the crazy they thought they could ignore might start moving underneath them.

Whatever that fat sack of KFC grease said, scared everyone... people that didn't blink about being ordered to sacrifice thousands in Iraq or men to sneak into a hostile country to canoe bin laden. These guys don't scare easily. He said or did something that scared them.

Whatever it was, they don't want it to leak, because that would immediately get the maga scum on board and orange faced mushroom dick would make sure it happened.

That's how you know it's really really bad.

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

You don't understand, do you? This is a statement that the military command will not obey illegal orders or commit crimes against humanity. It is laying the groundwork for mutiny.

maddog2030: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?

Admit it, we all want to want to see the Cosplay Cops try to square up against the guys who use tanks and APCs on a regular basis.

Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

You speak true.

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.  You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders.

Now let's see how many individual officers refuse.

You can include Mattis in this too. He may not be very popular around here but I think he's still popular with the military. Has anyone heard from McMaster lately?

Even Esper wobbling is interesting in this light. When was the last time a Secretary of Defense contradicted the president on the military, in even the smallest way.

Trump moves from one area to another. He destroys it, blames others, and moves on with no regard toward fixing the mess. Trade wars, treaties, middle east, his wall, the ACA, infrastructure, pandemic, etc. He has the attention span of a fruit fly. When he discovers a new toy he plays with it frequently until he gets bored with it. He's a bully that recently realized he could literally knock the s*** out of anybody that disagreed with him. He attacked American citizens with no provocation and a legal ability to do so. I genuinely believe this is the military's way of saying f*** you, that's as far as you go. We're not your personal Goon Squad. Can't wait to see what happens when he tries to fire 'his' generals.

Dear Republicans,

A pretty damn good case was made that your president was installed with Russian help.  And there is additional evidence to prove this that hasn't seen the light of day.  And there are actions he has taken already that concretely show he places Putin's demands over America.  You had a chance to rectify this state of affairs, but chose not to do anything.  You chose poorly.  Fark off.  If shiat gets real, I hope you all find yourself in the brig.

Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

We've all seen Trump strut around and act as though he has his own personal army to command.
I think that the adults are telling him that he does not.

Klyukva: / We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.

I didn't see a single democrat saying that.

Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Given that this is one of the leakiest administrations ever, we'll probably hear about it on Friday.

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

Follow his ILLEGAL orders, I should say. They'll still toe the line so long as the orders are legal, which honestly is what you need from the military.

This needs to be done. As has been posted in the past, every accusation is a confession. When he claims other people tried to do a coup, that is what he will do. And I think the GOP knows it and that is why they are staying quiet. They know what's coming. Then you have people like Cotton trying to ride the wave up.

Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

He wanted troops to gun down protesters like his personal death squad. Then, he probably proposed airstrikes on black majority neighborhoods in major cities.

That teargas photo op showed the generals why you don't let a toddler play with matches.

With any luck, Two Scoops' little stunt just cost him the United States military.

Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/con​f​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

make me some tea: The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow.

The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence.

Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified.

I'm not terribly surprised. This is the General that every time I saw him at a Trump presser or meeting, looked like he wanted to be anywhere else with every fiber of his being.

His sworn duty to the country kept him there, but I have a feeling this guy hopes he's one of the people that gets to forcibly remove the pasty old coward from the Oval Office when it happens.

Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?

anuran: This is a statement that the military command will not obey illegal orders or commit crimes against humanity. It is laying the groundwork for mutiny.

It is not mutiny to disregard an unlawful order.
Mutiny or following unlawful orders against US citizens would both result in a military dictatorship.

TwowheelinTim: ansius: [image.newsvoice.com image 640x380]

I bet Milley didn't like being ambushed into being an extra in trump's ridiculous photo op.

But yes, the way I'm reading this is that this is instructions to his officers to remember to refuse orders that are illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical.

So yeah, a sh*tbag hypocrite: do as I say, not as I do. Again, f*ck this asshole with a rusty horseshoe.

Do you think that an active duty military officer gets a choice when the CinC says "follow me for a walk?"

Officers of the United States military are required to refuse unlawful orders, but the moral degradation of being a prop for one of the Traitor's PR stunts does not rise to the level of an unlawful order.

Is it article 25 time yet ?

GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

Good point! That was extremely unusual. The NG getting replaced with prison guards for reasons unknown was baffling. The protestors should've hit them up for drugs, though. That's their side gig.

/ Now THAT would make for a photo.

shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

Smoking GNU: lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

A gunbattle between the military and a  facist-takeover army loyal to the evil shouty yam of hate and chaos in DC? And you don't think it'd instantly spread all over the country with cries of "The military has betrayed dear leader" under the usual derp brigade? That's how you get 20 of insurgency and carbombings in your country.

From what I've seen, I'd reckon 98% of those III%ers wouldn't last more than 48 hours.

To all the farkers who said "if Dumpy doesn't leave, he will be removed," I hope that this letter signifies the beginning of my apology for doubting you. FuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuarkI really hope to be apologizing soon.

Trump either tries to play this off like 'of course we believe in free speech, i directed him to say that', or he's removed as Chairman. Probably being removed, because Trump never likes anybody who works for him saying negative shiat about him. It might not be this week, but it will be before Trump is out of office.

SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?

Wow.

Shiat just got real.

So...quick question.  Can anyone track down a digitized copy of this?  I think I'd like to read it:

https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog​/​dsp01cc08hh28h

Cubansaltyballs: stoli n coke: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

He wanted troops to gun down protesters like his personal death squad. Then, he probably proposed airstrikes on black majority neighborhoods in major cities.

That teargas photo op showed the generals why you don't let a toddler play with matches.

With any luck, Two Scoops' little stunt just cost him the United States military.

Definitely the officer corps.

The rank and file... probably not.

But we've got like 150 more days of tiny dick wrapped in a bad suit with his face covered makeup from the  thousand island dressing collection who sees every govt asset, especially the military as his own props for his campaign. And to make that limp-dick coward piece of rotting shiat feel like a man for the first time since he raped that 7th grader at Jeff's rape menagerie.

Rank and file's personal opinions don't matter.

First, enlisted military is about 40% black and Hispanic. I wouldn't count on their MAGAt loyalty.

Second, the general's letter, along with setting the groundwork for a possible mutiny, was a thinly veiled warning to the entire Army, of which the general is the highest ranking member. It tells them that anyone who issues or follows an illegal order will be put under Leavenworth.

That's going to cool out any Private Dipshiats that think they're going to go all Rambo on the protesters.

Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image image 850x967]

[Fark user image image 850x1097]

I've got my hunch. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

But I just don't see all them doing that because of what they saw on the news.

For clarity, I was supporting your view.  I think that of the various theories ascribed thus far, yours is probably the closest to being correct.  Someone high up in the civilian command structure said or did something, and given the only faster-than-light communication method known to man is the military rumor mill, word of that flashed around the military as they heard what they might be expected to do.  There's too many memos all hitting the same rhetorical points, in too short a time, and SecDef's flip is too fast, to be the result of media or public pressure: it almost has to be an internal matter.

FightDirector:
if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

yup.

GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

I really do think the tide is finally turning against the toddler in chief, and the great thing is the more people go against him the more he will throw tantrums and screw up, meaning he loses even more support. Of course he will never lose the support of his braindead cult but they are just a loudmouthed minority so who cares.

shpritz: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Mattis isn't behind said doors these days. And SecDef is just covering his ass.

come on. You've never talked to an old co-worker about the boss you still report to?

He said something terrifying and scary and one of them talked to Mattis... hey bud, remember the crazy boss? He said x,y, and z today. I'm writing a letter. Oh, youll do one too? Perfect. That'll help. Thanks bud. See you at Smith's BBQ in 4 weeks.

ArkPanda: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it h ...

Yeah, but he got right back on board, so I wouldn't put much stock in him.

This will come down to the decisions of individual officers - and enlisted personnel - on the ground.  If some go with Trump and others with Milley, that's a civil war waiting to happen.

Cubansaltyballs: Whatever it was, they don't want it to leak, because that would immediately get the maga scum on board and orange faced mushroom dick would make sure it happened.

That's how you know it's really really bad.

Could be, or it could be that Gen. Milley saw Barr order those cops to gas those protesters without provocation for a stupid photo op, put 2 and 2 together, and figured it was only a matter of time before the Orange Idiot did something similar involving U.S. troops.

That's not to say the U.S. version of Tiananmen Square isn't still in the future, just that it will most likely involve secret police and Erik Prince's mercs, rather than active-duty military.

Greil: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do.

Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president.

Declining to follow Trumps orders can be the same as a coup depending on who they do decide to follow.

Near as I can tell, the appropriate answer is not to defy all of the chaos goblin's orders, just the illegal ones. Follow all applicable previous legal orders, decline illegal ones, and wait for the next legal order. It's a hell of a fine line to tread but that's how you're supposed to do it.

Of course, declining even an illegal order will get you masted at best unless you can prove it was illegal.

/ Most of his orders will be illegal by now I expect

The letter doesn't say that only illegal orders will be refused.

It says to refuse orders that go against American values.

That is quite a bit broader than just illegal orders.

TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and ov ...

I take it, though, that not all those officials were on the same page as Trump. They were there to lend authority to Trump's call to arms against the protest. Milley may have disagreed with Trump's invocation of the military, but as Trump layed it out in his speech, he was within his authority to make the declaration.

(paraphrase) "Governors will use all means including national guard to quell the riots. If I deem the governors unable to stop the violence, I will be forced to use the US military to do it." Because that is exactly what the Insurrection Act allows, the military has to go along with it.

So there they all are, and some people know what's about to go down next, mainly Ivanka and Barr. Barr starts scoping out the protester lines. This was a big thing that people noted. He was taking active interest in it. Then someone (probably Barr, directly or indirectly) ordered state police to push the protesters back before curfew. Those officials NOT in the know would hear the protesters being cleared, but they wouldn't necessarily understand the circumstances, nor who was reacting to whom.

Milley would thus accompany the Clown-in-Chief across the street, and then see the pictures taken with a bible. On the way, he would see the effects of the state police, but again, not necessarily know the full details of what just transpired.

But once he saw the photo op... if you look at the pictures of the officials standing by, there are A LOT of sour and dour faces. It doesn't take long for officials to put 2 and 2 together, and then news reports and video would confirm it later for them. Milley DID get roasted by pundits for making that walk, and most likely that burned in his belly. He was set up along with a number of others to imbue Trump with some sort of presidential authority that he had just abused, staining all those officials who wouldn't have agreed with the actions.

So you might want to hold your fire on Milley before calling him out. Sure, some of this might be to save face; but it's not written as an excuse, it's written as a directive.

Also, for those saying that Trump is surrounded by amoral nincompoops, that is about 90% correct, but you're forgetting about Barr, who has probably kept Trump from being convicted during impeachment, stalled out nearly every court proceeding against Trump, and helped remove many executive branch safeguards in the form of IGs and other career personnel who could rat out malfeasance. Barr might use the most demented of rationales for justifying whatever DOJ command he orders, but it's worked thus far, and he knows the margins of rules and laws that both Trump and his department continue to skirt.

Snaps: I hope this is why the troops in DC seem so calm tonight, they don't have to worry about obeying insane orders.

I watched the seven hour live feed of that protest and the soldiers were pretty calm.

Most of them refused to look at the protesters and acknowledge their humanity, and there was one guy who looked like every fu*king stereotype of a alt-right hitler youth. Big blue eyes and all. I noted him, his expression of disdain barely held in check. How he refused to not only look at anyone in the eye, he wouldn't even look around at the scene in general. Black person after black person "walked the line" demanding respect and acknowledgement as a human being, but he didn't look once. I was getting more and more worried about him.

Then a white man, an older man, began to walk the line, holding up his military ID and declaring he was a veteran and he knew better than to face off against his own people when he was in uniform. He went up and down the line shaming them, and then stopped at Blue-Eyed Boy and told him the same things, directly to his face.

He suddenly started actually looking at people and the scene and the guys standing next to him and the people across from him.

And I felt a bit better. Blue-Eyed Boy seemed to have had a "come to Jesus moment" and I hope it sticks.

BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

Oh yes there are.

We've averted WWIII on multiple occasions when verified orders came through but the guys on watch wouldn't turn the keys. The orders turned out to be screwups, but it's only because those orders were disobeyed that we aren't in Fallout 4.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_​o​f_nuclear_close_calls

I've got faith in the system. American watch guys may have been in their share of  trouble in the past with the testing scandals and what not, but they do have access to current events. Literally none of them want to start WWIII, and I think they'll have a grasp on the situation if the orders ever do come through.

TWX: For all the threads that postulate what would happen if Trump loses and refuses to acknowledge that he lost in November through Inaguration in January, this is all the proof that you need that Trump's Presidency would be over.  The military has just been told to adhere to their oath to the Constitution, to the people of the United States.

We'll just have to wait and see how many of them will be willing to stick to that oath when the time comes.

ox45tallboy: What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

Trump has gotten rid of everyone savvy and capable of understanding.

I think the real life version of the Downfall bunker scene happened in the oval office last night.

Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

While you're making things up that people are getting excited about a "military coup"  how about imagining me a steak or something...I'm hungry and lazy at the same time.

gopher321: Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?

Hopefully hooked up to a ventilator.

Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image image 850x967]

[Fark user image image 850x1097]

I've got my hunch. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

But I just don't see all them doing that because of what they saw on the news.

For clarity, I was supporting your view.  I think that of the various theories ascribed thus far, yours is probably the closest to being correct.  Someone high up in the civilian command structure said or did something, and given the only faster-than-light communication method known to man is the military rumor mill, word of that flashed around the military as they heard what they might be expected to do.  There's too many memos all hitting the same rhetorical points, in too short a time, and SecDef's flip is too fast, to be the result of media or public pressure: it almost has to be an internal matter.

Exactly.

I thought you were agreeing they all  saw the same news report and took it upon themselves to do wild shiat.

Something really crazy happened. We'll find out one day. Like all the times when we found out how close we came to nuclear war 20 years after the event.

It couldn't just be that he said something dumb. No one would care. His dumb crazy thing probably started moving and it freaked everyone out.

I think you're both right, and they responded to him that they couldn't do what he suggested, that it's illegal, unconstitutional, human and civil rights violating and abuse of military, etc. and Trump responded that he didn't care, do it anyway, causing this reaction.

VerifiedPoster: BadReligion: JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians.

I remember a film scene where people rose up against an occupying army of fascists, but I cannot find the clip.

So I got this long version.

Arise, Citizens

Casablanca La Marseillaise

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do.

Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president.

Declining to follow Trumps orders can be the same as a coup depending on who they do decide to follow.

Near as I can tell, the appropriate answer is not to defy all of the chaos goblin's orders, just the illegal ones. Follow all applicable previous legal orders, decline illegal ones, and wait for the next legal order. It's a hell of a fine line to tread but that's how you're supposed to do it.

Of course, declining even an illegal order will get you masted at best unless you can prove it was illegal.

/ Most of his orders will be illegal by now I expect

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

Thank you for the differentiation between coup and mutiny.

As for American values, well, I wish he would spell them out, because a lot of Americans still seem to think that security after 9/11 means segregation, and American values are about successful nice people policing sad people who live in communities of broken windows. Broken windows theory is an American ideology, and it seems rampant the last 9 nights.

King Something: ox45tallboy: There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

[Fark user image 480x360]

"Mein Fuhrer..."

Evil Twin Skippy: Greil: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do.

Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president.

Declining to follow Trumps orders can be the same as a coup depending on who they do decide to follow.

Near as I can tell, the appropriate answer is not to defy all of the chaos goblin's orders, just the illegal ones. Follow all applicable previous legal orders, decline illegal ones, and wait for the next legal order. It's a hell of a fine line to tread but that's how you're supposed to do it.

Of course, declining even an illegal order will get you masted at best unless you can prove it was illegal.

/ Most of his orders will be illegal by now I expect

That is why we have a chain of command. Trump orders the Secretaries. ...

I'm not military but here in civilian life I'd rather have the guy who asks why I need a ditch because after I tell him he might be able to employ his relevant experience and expertise toward optimizing the ditch for that purpose.

I bet Milley didn't like being ambushed into being an extra in trump's ridiculous photo op.

But yes, the way I'm reading this is that this is instructions to his officers to remember to refuse orders that are illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical.

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

Publicly. Published on General Lengyel's official Twitter account.

Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

Hey Nurse!: Trump moves from one area to another. He destroys it, blames others, and moves on with no regard toward fixing the mess. Trade wars, treaties, middle east, his wall, the ACA, infrastructure, pandemic, etc. He has the attention span of a fruit fly. When he discovers a new toy he plays with it frequently until he gets bored with it. He's a bully that recently realized he could literally knock the s*** out of anybody that disagreed with him. He attacked American citizens with no provocation and a legal ability to do so. I genuinely believe this is the military's way of saying f*** you, that's as far as you go. We're not your personal Goon Squad. Can't wait to see what happens when he tries to fire 'his' generals.

He'll appoint new ones that are of the same quality as his current advisors and Cabinet. It won't get the military to execute illegal orders and he will just have the police and federal agency personnel do it instead. This will likely limit the incident to just DC, but it is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. The protests would shift from being about police brutality in general to removing Trump for ordering police brutality.

\it is going to be a long time till November comes around
\\I don't know if my liver can take it

apocryphaandmyth: ox45tallboy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

They aren't mercs.

Although honestly it's not much of an improvement.

Bringing the riot squad to a potential riot isn't stark raving madness.
Bringing in mercenaries sure would be.

Well a prison riot squad is probably used to being able to do things that you'd normally not get away with in full public view. However, the regular police are already shooting rubber bullets at people's eyes. So....

I found an antifa to report to the FBI

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do.

Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president.

cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military?

Hah! Does the Russian military have even enough coal to run their telephones, let alone their carriers?

Klyukva: mrparks: So this is what the GOP pivot looks like. Let Dumbtr*mp run things into the ground, and then swoop in and save us.

YAY!

Once again proving that for people like you, the problem was never with what Trump did but with which party he belonged too.

/ We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.
// Thankfully that didn't come close to happening.

As I recall, they said people should rally behind the nominee. It was never in any danger of being Bloomberg, unless *oogabooga* there was a brokered convention. They being AOC, and it was directed at those who might be disgruntled by Bernie not being nominated. Context, meet nuance.
That is the third thing you've gotten wrong in that post alone, and frankly, the only one worth addressing.

I just wanted to briefly interrupt and tell subby I appreciated the headline. Been a while since one has made me laugh out loud. I'm kinda fond of the "your mom" ones.

/I have a juvenile sense of humor

king of vegas: ox45tallboy: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

Oh yes there are.

We've averted WWIII on multiple occasions when verified orders came through but the guys on watch wouldn't turn the keys. The orders turned out to be screwups, but it's only because those orders were disobeyed that we aren't in Fallout 4.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o​f_nuclear_close_calls

I've got faith in the system. American watch guys may have been in their share of  trouble in the past with the testing scandals and what not, but they do have access to current events. Literally none of them want to start WWIII, and I think they'll have a grasp on the situation if the orders ever do come through.

Even if we don't start it, maybe someone else would.

The persistent story is that, during the dark days of Watergate, instructions were sent out to ignore launch directives without verification from an independent source.

stoli n coke: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

He wanted troops to gun down protesters like his personal death squad. Then, he probably proposed airstrikes on black majority neighborhoods in major cities.

That teargas photo op showed the generals why you don't let a toddler play with matches.

With any luck, Two Scoops' little stunt just cost him the United States military.

Definitely the officer corps.

The rank and file... probably not.

But we've got like 150 more days of tiny dick wrapped in a bad suit with his face covered makeup from the  thousand island dressing collection who sees every govt asset, especially the military as his own props for his campaign. And to make that limp-dick coward piece of rotting shiat feel like a man for the first time since he raped that 7th grader at Jeff's rape menagerie.

ox45tallboy: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

Some will know.  But are they going to call out the chairman for simply stating that he swore to uphold the constitution?  They can't say boo without starting a conversation about why they think it is a bad thing.

The smart move is to say "of course we all support the constitution!" and pivot to a new talking point.  Trump will probably  fire him or demand his resignation by Friday.

BadReligion: JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians.

I remember a film scene where people rose up against an occupying army of fascists, but I cannot find the clip.

So I got this long version.

Arise, Citizens

"La Marseillaise" - France National anthem French & English lyrics

scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

I think you're missing the point that jack shiat is EXACTLY what they're supposed to do when given an illegal order.

Jaws_Victim: Jiggatron69: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

Which is why you see Barr bringing in randos then folding them into one unit under his command for the crapshow at the park when president bunkerboy wanted to walk to the park.  People dont understand how many off the book assets are out there and they are steadily being brought to bear against the American people now.

So would it be accurate to say, rich corporate backed private security forces are being deployed against Americans?

Pinkertons never went away.  Right now the question is what is Erik Prince doing because that dude is a clear and present danger.  He's got the organization, funding, manpower and desire to make whatever nightmare trump cooks up happen.  This is real Babylon 5 hours now......

Boo_Guy: Cubansaltyballs: I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

He was asking about what military vehicles could be deployed and mentioned tanks.

'Trump is talking about using tanks to quell the George Floyd protests'

Probably led off the rant with, "I was just speaking with Vladimir, and he suggested..."

/ Bugger

Zevon's Evil Twin: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

We've all seen Trump strut around and act as though he has his own personal army to command.
I think that the adults are telling him that he does not.

Yes, agreed. But why now?

He said something. Something happened.

They barely flinched when he wanted a military parade, because it's stupid and dumb and basically harmless.

But not this. Whatever it was.

GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

They aren't mercs.

Although honestly it's not much of an improvement.

mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

ox45tallboy: There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

Someone probably mentioned this already, but it's important to reiterate.  It's not just this statement.  This came out right when the Commandant of the USMC said something similar, and Gen Mattis made his statements about Trump.  None of this was by mistake.

The USMC has always seen itself as kind of the praetorian guard (before they got corrupt), they exist to make sure a populist general of the army can't attempt a coup against the president.  The USMC band is the "presidents own", Marines guard the White House and camp David.  It's the USMC that is the last military line of defense for the Executive Branch.  It's one of the reasons the USMC has regularly argued to maintain its existence.  By the CMC and Mattis making these statements, it isn't just a couple generals saying something.  This is the internal politics of the military flying as big a flag as they can saying "there is zero military support for the illegal stuff we know you want to do."
Okay, so the military is going to follow the constitution, that's fine, what's so important about Mattis' statement?  Think of Generals as C-Suite execs and the board of directors.  Generals very rarely enter politics, nor speak ill of politicians, especially active ones in the middle of a crisis. This is a retired Chairman of the Board of Directors of the largest company in the world saying that he has zero confidence in the new CEO.  Not only that, but because of how the military works, his statements were vetted with the current board of directors before he said anything.

Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

This.  I also think something already went down.  Trump wanted a full-on military response to suppress the protests and riots, and the SECDEF and JSOC basically said "um, yeah, we're going to go ahead and NOT do that."

It is very much an exercise in CYA to avoid illegal orders. And reminding officers to do exactly that.

Especially in the face of say, a seated Congressman who actually served, who advocates that our military commit war crimes in pursuance of their duty.

Cubansaltyballs: shpritz: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Mattis isn't behind said doors these days. And SecDef is just covering his ass.

come on. You've never talked to an old co-worker about the boss you still report to?

He said something terrifying and scary and one of them talked to Mattis... hey bud, remember the crazy boss? He said x,y, and z today. I'm writing a letter. Oh, youll do one too? Perfect. That'll help. Thanks bud. See you at Smith's BBQ in 4 weeks.

It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

SecDef, like I said, is seeing where the wind is blowing and covering his ass.

That's not to say Milley isn't reacting to something Trump told him to do. I just don't think it's some coordinated gameplan.

And let's not forget that Trump is the guy that wanted to nuke a hurricane, so Milley has probably heard a lot of terrifying stuff.

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

This is huge, also because if Trump tries to force rescheduling of the election or cancelling it with the support of the military or by using emergency powers, the Chairman basically told him he won't be able to use the military or national guard. Trump's only armed forces he can therefore command in the case of a coup or civil war would be the CBP and the Secret Service. Maybe the FBI and BATF.

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

This one is especially telling. He doesn't cite the 92 riots, or other instances of minorities rioting.  He cites farking Selma.

Evil Twin Skippy: BafflerMeal: Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

This is also true.

"The football" doesn't actually contain any kind of launch codes. It contains retaliatory strike patterns and some authentication protocols.

Any order to launch nukes still has to pass through several human beings first. And we have already had cases where training fark ups directed battle drill launch orders to the actual launch command.

Note the lack of launches when that happened in your history books. You would almost swear that people who know what the fark they are doing are actually in charge of all this.

Trump has no idea what he's doing and neither do a lot of the people he's put into positions of power

BafflerMeal: Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

This is also true.

"The football" doesn't actually contain any kind of launch codes. It contains retaliatory strike patterns and some authentication protocols.

Any order to launch nukes still has to pass through several human beings first. And we have already had cases where training fark ups directed battle drill launch orders to the actual launch command.

Note the lack of launches when that happened in your history books. You would almost swear that people who know what the fark they are doing are actually in charge of all this.

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

Which is why you see Barr bringing in randos then folding them into one unit under his command for the crapshow at the park when president bunkerboy wanted to walk to the park.  People dont understand how many off the book assets are out there and they are steadily being brought to bear against the American people now.

I am OK with this.

Despite the perspective of some great distance (and all the bravery of being well out of range) I reckon that, overall, Americans as a whole are tired of the Trump sh*tshow, and the military is no different.

What this tells me is that cooler heads will ultimately prevail.

BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

Following orders and overthrowing the government are not the only two options here. You have a helluva a x- axis going on.

Original: Original Tweet:

waltshaub: Of the three letters making news tonight, this one is the big deal. It is a big deal that he felt the need to issue it. It is a big deal that he issued it. https://t.co/ONHniXXLst

Klyukva: mrparks: So this is what the GOP pivot looks like. Let Dumbtr*mp run things into the ground, and then swoop in and save us.

YAY!

Once again proving that for people like you, the problem was never with what Trump did but with which party he belonged too.

/ We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.
// Thankfully that didn't come close to happening.

I can't speak for others but I used to be an independent-leaning liberal. I've become a much stronger partisan Democratic Party supporter since I saw over 40% of the voting population still supporting Trump after he started separating families at the border and all the other clear abandonments of American values. Over 40% still support Trump today, after everything he's done. So there's no longer any room for bipartisanship. The Republicans no longer support American values, therefore the Republicans need to be removed from power at any cost.

Greil: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do.

Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president.

Declining to follow Trumps orders can be the same as a coup depending on who they do decide to follow.

Near as I can tell, the appropriate answer is not to defy all of the chaos goblin's orders, just the illegal ones. Follow all applicable previous legal orders, decline illegal ones, and wait for the next legal order. It's a hell of a fine line to tread but that's how you're supposed to do it.

Of course, declining even an illegal order will get you masted at best unless you can prove it was illegal.

/ Most of his orders will be illegal by now I expect

That is why we have a chain of command. Trump orders the Secretaries. The Secretaries interpret those orders, and send them to the 4 star Generals, who send their interpretation of those orders to the 3 stars and down and down to the squad leader telling the lowliest private.

At every point in the chain is someone looking at the lay of the land and sniff testing what was ordered and how to carry it out, and IF to carry it out.

"When I order a Prussian soldier to dig a ditch, he asks me 'how deep?' When I ask an American to dig a ditch he asks 'why do you need a ditch?'"
-Baron Von Steuben

BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

I sincerely hope that some general in DC has contacted whomever is on the receiving end of the football with a "call me if your thing starts beeping" order. Yeah, against protocol in ordinary times but these are not ordinary times.

Cubansaltyballs: Definitely the officer corps.

The rank and file... probably not.

Eh, I know plenty of lower-level officers and senior enlisted and W-Xes that will be on the friction point between command and the actual boots on the ground. Most of them are horrified at the prospect of even being put in their current position, and will likely balk at relaying orders that they think might be illegal.

shastacola: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

No, for about the 4th month in a row, we're in uncharted territory.

So both completely unprecedented and about damned time.

lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

A gunbattle between the military and a  facist-takeover army loyal to the evil shouty yam of hate and chaos in DC? And you don't think it'd instantly spread all over the country with cries of "The military has betrayed dear leader" under the usual derp brigade? That's how you get 20 of insurgency and carbombings in your country.

fragMasterFlash: Has Trump called him Karen yet?

If you were paying attention, you would know that Karen is still escalating her feud with that one white guy alone holding a black lives matter sign in Florida. She's busy at the moment but I'm sure she'll get right on it, seeing how she has almost unlimited time to be a busy body and demand that she be respected about EVERYTHING, ALWAYS!

My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

This is an official public statement from one of the highest ranking military officials in our country explicitly instructing every member of every branch of the armed service to ... not do that.

erik-k: TwowheelinTim: ansius: [image.newsvoice.com image 640x380]

I bet Milley didn't like being ambushed into being an extra in trump's ridiculous photo op.

But yes, the way I'm reading this is that this is instructions to his officers to remember to refuse orders that are illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical.

So yeah, a sh*tbag hypocrite: do as I say, not as I do. Again, f*ck this asshole with a rusty horseshoe.

Do you think that an active duty military officer gets a choice when the CinC says "follow me for a walk?"

Officers of the United States military are required to refuse unlawful orders, but the moral degradation of being a prop for one of the Traitor's PR stunts does not rise to the level of an unlawful order.

Actually, it may. There are military rules against participation in political campaign events while in service uniform.

Kazan: Klyukva: / We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.

I didn't see a single democrat saying that.

That particular poster smells like borscht. With cranberries. Treat him accordingly.

Kazan: Klyukva: / We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.

I didn't see a single democrat saying that.

Just more cowardly conservative projection. Pay the bootlicker no mind.

Holy sheerot. This is huge. Now I want to see a similar letter from the commander of NORTHCOM, which is the actual combatant command that covers the US. In other words he has actual control of the troops and firepower.

/an interesting aside, he's a 4 star Air Force General and I believe he was born in Canada, so he'll be very polite.

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

He retweeted Milley as well.

/I hate that retweeting has significance

quo vadimus: OK So Amuse Me:

quo vadimus: I do hope you are righter than right. My Dad was Air Force but he was out before he met my Mom so I don't really have any solid grounding in Military things.

Teehee, as a weirdo trying to decide if Pride will give me enough of an excuse to come out to my fam, I read this very, very differently than you intended it to begin with :-D

I think we all tint the words we see with our own colors and you saw something pertinent to your situation, even if it was just the way I stacked the words. It didn't hurt my words for you to see them that way. And, good luck with your decision, whichever way you decide. I hope your family is supportive when you do tell them.

FightDirector: Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image image 850x967]

[Fark user image image 850x1097]

I've got my hunch. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

But I just don't see all them doing that because of what they saw on the news.

For clarity, I was supporting your view.  I think that of the various theories ascribed thus far, yours is probably the closest to being correct.  Someone high up in the civilian command structure said or did something, and given the only faster-than-light communication method known to man is the military rumor mill, word of that flashed around the military as they heard what they might be expected to do.  There's too many memos all hitting the same rhetorical points, in too short a time, and SecDef's flip is too fast, to be the result of media or public pressure: it almost has to be an internal matter.

Exactly.

I thought you were agreeing they all  saw the same news report and took it upon themselves to do wild shiat.

Something really crazy happened. We'll find out one day. Like all the times when we found out how close we came to nuclear war 20 years after the event.

It couldn't just be that he said something dumb. No one would care. His dumb crazy thing probably started moving and it freaked everyone out.

RaymondQGillet: I hate to bust up the circlejerk, but support for Trump remains high among the enlisted.

No it doesn't. It had dropped to 43% last December, and it's reasonable to say it's even lower now.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pe​n​tagon-congress/2019/12/17/half-of-acti​ve-duty-service-members-are-unhappy-wi​th-trump-new-military-times-poll-shows​/

"Among the enlisted force, the recent survey showed a 43 percent favorable rating. "

FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image 850x967]

[Fark user image 850x1097]

Thanks for posting these.  These words are chose very f$cking carefully. There are aspects that contradict the President and there are important statements that are completely missing from what Trump has said. This is a big f$cking deal.  The 3 letters combined are amazing.

The last letter basically compares the police push back to the racist push back at the height of the civil.  That's a big one.  Also, Trayvon Martin as a tragedy which it was.  However, a vast majority of Trumpers consider Martin's killing justified.  That is a slap in their face. The Air Force general is going to get fired.  Not sure about the other two.

Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

I'm thinking anger was the bigger motivator.  Anger at the audacity and utter lack of knowledge of the Constitutional duties and scope of the presidency displayed by the current office holder.  Anger that they, the military, had to resort to these open condemnations because the idiot has been lead to believe by his lickspittle sycophants that he's untouchable and can do whatever he wants.  Anger at the bald attempt by this corrupt administration to morph into a dictatorship. Anger at the willful lawlessness.  Anger at the idiot waddling roughshod, literally, over the tenets the 1st Amendment, over the separation of church and state.

I'm pretty farking angry myself.

General Allen is weighing in now.  This is good.

SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

7 months and 17 days

born_yesterday: GoldSpider: I wonder how much coverage this is going to get in the mainstream press.

"President Trump today again declared his power and intent to use the military, including tanks, to crush protests in DC and around the country.  Others disagree."

This is part of the process that got us here. During the campaign the news cycle went a lot like this:

"Trump today repeated his claim that Clinton is a space alien who will eat your brains if elected. The Clinton campaign denied these claims.

Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign released video footage of Trump saying that he absolutely took actions that violate federal election laws. The Trump campaign called it 'fake news.'"

Because doing actual reporting and fact checking will turn off old conservatives who are the only people that watch network news and buy newspapers.

ox45tallboy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

They aren't mercs.

Although honestly it's not much of an improvement.

Too lazy to be a cop? Liked being a bully in high school? You should consider a job as a corrections officer!

Lousy pay but great benefits! Make unlimited side money smuggling in contraband, blackmail female inmates for sexual favors, sleep during your night shift, take our your insecurities and low self esteem out on inmates without any fear of being held accountable. Yes, you too can proudly be part of the only thing that America is number 1 at, incarcerating it's citizens!

I'm wondering what sort of pressure the WH has being trying to put on the military behind closed doors that generated this.

The stuff in the media is bad. Extremely bad. But I'm not sure it alone is enough to prompt the public release of a letter like that.

There must be an absolute shiat show going on between the WH and Pentagon.

Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

It's not the threat of a coup, but it's trumpy being put on notice that the military are on the side of the constitution and the people if he tries to shiatty them up with his stable trumpy farking shiat-stirring hands.

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

strange. why exactly is it that SO many old, OLD friends are just soooo....."conservative", slimy, ignorant, and hateful when it comes to the freedoms that make america great?  i think those are the adjectives i was grasping for! when it comes to the old old -and seldom seen- dear friends.....

it's JUST SO WEIRD.......

Hand Banana: Cubansaltyballs: lolmao500: Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/conf​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

No they wouldn't.

3/4 support the military when they are the good guys. Only 26% will support the military gunning down American civilians.

How does not following Trump's illegal orders mean gunning down American civilians, wtf are you talking about?

I read your thing wrong. My bad. I thought you were saying 75% would support the military following an illegal order.

Cubansaltyballs: lolmao500: Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/conf​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

No they wouldn't.

3/4 support the military when they are the good guys. Only 26% will support the military gunning down American civilians.

How does not following Trump's illegal orders mean gunning down American civilians, wtf are you talking about?

Shaggy_C: Lot of reading between the lines going on here. Sounds more like he's pushing all accountability to the governors and saying anything the guardsmen do that is illegal or against the spirit of the constitution is therefore the governor's responsibility.

Echoes of Trump's coronavirus response, actually.

Take another look at the letter.

lolmao500: Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/conf​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

No they wouldn't.

3/4 support the military when they are the good guys. Only 26% will support the military gunning down American civilians.

Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

This is also true.

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.

Which actually reassured me and gives me a tiny glimmer of hope.

/and I'm spent
//night night

Nothing would make me happier than to see Eric Prince and his mercs get annihilated by the US military.

No Quarter.

Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and ov ...

This comment chain made me decide to give a call to a retired JAG(family member) to talk about the situation. Pretty much echoed what has been said. That and he gravitated towards this being a good sign from the "the system won't let Trump refute the election results" perspective.

revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military.

for you.

JohnnyApocalypse: Barr might use the most demented of rationales for justifying whatever DOJ command he orders, but it's worked thus far, and he knows the margins of rules and laws that both Trump and his department continue to skirt.

He needs to swing first. Needed to swing a long time ago, most likely.

ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

He was relieved of his command and rightly so.  This time, I dunno.  Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic.

quizzical: ox45tallboy: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

Some will know.  But are they going to call out the chairman for simply stating that he swore to uphold the constitution?  They can't say boo without starting a conversation about why they think it is a bad thing.

The smart move is to say "of course we all support the constitution!" and pivot to a new talking point.  Trump will probably  fire him or demand his resignation by Friday.

For what?

Nothing the General states was in any way political, or even controversial. The Armed Forces swears and oath to protect the Constitution, the People of America, and follow lawful orders. In that order. And the lawful orders is baked right into the oath.

Trump has turned Twitter into a semi-official means of disseminating information to the chain of command.

Any call on the part of Trump for fire that General would require a pile of explaining that really would not help Trump's case.

ox45tallboy: King Something: ox45tallboy: There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

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"Mein Fuhrer..."

Prince... Prince was unable to make the attack upon the protesters...

And just to clarify because sometimes I'm kind of subtle about it... I'm not like, a fan of president never ate a salad in his worthless disgusting puke existence because he grew up to look like his wretched mom that looked like a carney f*cked a cotton candy machine and produced a frizzy haired loser scumbag sack of shiat that has lived a life of rage because he's not a real man.

FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image image 850x967]

[Fark user image image 850x1097]

I've got my hunch. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

But I just don't see all them doing that because of what they saw on the news.

shpritz: Cubansaltyballs: shpritz: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Mattis isn't behind said doors these days. And SecDef is just covering his ass.

come on. You've never talked to an old co-worker about the boss you still report to?

He said something terrifying and scary and one of them talked to Mattis... hey bud, remember the crazy boss? He said x,y, and z today. I'm writing a letter. Oh, youll do one too? Perfect. That'll help. Thanks bud. See you at Smith's BBQ in 4 weeks.

It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

SecDef, like I said, is seeing where the wind is blowing and covering his ass.

That's not to say Milley isn't reacting to something Trump told him to do. I just don't think it's some coordinated gameplan.

And let's not forget that Trump is the guy that wanted to nuke a hurricane, so Milley has probably heard a lot of terrifying stuff.

I know military guys become family after serving together. I'm 1000% certain miley and mattis remained close. They both stopped horribly dumb things in the past.

The letter makes me think this actually could happen or was in motion and it terrified them it might actually farking happen.

The nuke thing is easy. He's just a dummy. Remove random storms from any possible strike package and it's moot.

I think something really wild happened.

Smoking GNU: lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

A gunbattle between the military and a  facist-takeover army loyal to the evil shouty yam of hate and chaos in DC? And you don't think it'd instantly spread all over the country with cries of "The military has betrayed dear leader" under the usual derp brigade? That's how you get 20 of insurgency and carbombings in your country.

I am OK with this. It is the only way I can see to cut out the cancer and cauterize the wound. Fox and Sinclair et al have pushed things too far anything else. And I think the Trumpers will not last that long.

ox45tallboy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

They aren't mercs.

Although honestly it's not much of an improvement.

Bringing the riot squad to a potential riot isn't stark raving madness.
Bringing in mercenaries sure would be.

Buried in this BI article that someone else posted is one of the more frightening things I've recently seen about Trump: "A senior administration official said this didn't necessarily mean Trump wanted to send tanks, The Beast reported. "I think that is just one of the military words he knows," the official reportedly said."

It's openly admitted that Trump is making decisions when he doesn't even know the words.

He's in serious cognitive decomposition, and you know that McConnell, Barr, Graham, and every other major GOPper and Fox News host knows it and won't say it.

AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

Nice bomb throw. Good height, but terrible distance. Gotta work on your throwing arm.

Makes me wonder if behind the scenes trump ain't demanding they open fire with live rounds.

To use the words that soon-to-be president Biden used after the passage of the ACA:  "This is a big farking deal."

Do you know the way to Mordor: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.

Perhaps as many as the number of JAGoffs working on Trump's Tinyman Square speech!

Hadn't heard that one; I shall be stealing it :)

Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.

Perhaps as many as the number of JAGoffs working on Trump's Tinyman Square speech!

anuran: erik-k: cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military?

Whether he does or not, it doesn't matter because the Russian military is in and near Russia and the American military is in America...

How's this for a nightmare? The US military refuses to back him up, and he asks Dom-Daddy Vlad for military help.  The MAGATS would all cheer because he's being tough and Maverick. The US military would give birth to a porcupine, breech presentation.

Russia's got their own problems right now with Covid tearing through Moscow and the price of oil, their economic backbone, in the shiatter. They don't have any troops to spare. That's why they wanted Two Scoops to have our troops do their dirty work in the Middle East.

The Hero tag has seldom been more deserved

Cubansaltyballs: I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

He was asking about what military vehicles could be deployed and mentioned tanks.

'Trump is talking about using tanks to quell the George Floyd protests'

mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

Good thing they changed it from 00000000 before he was elected.

gopher321: Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?

According to my exhaustive five minutes of searching the internet he's planning a trip to Minneapolis to coincide with Obama's next week. No mention of what he's been doing outside of that for the last five days or so. Making some kind of attempt at outreach is the sort of thing he'd do if he was still being loyal to the administration or if he was preparing to get a battlefield promotion, so I don't think we can draw much from that. Keeping distance from the President on the other hand is just a good idea right now.

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

He was relieved of his command and rightly so.  This time, I dunno.  Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic.

MacArthur was in many ways a military Trump - an arrogant egotist who thought he deserved to be Kinged 'God'.

MacArthur, unlike Trump, actually had intelligence and competency.  But he still seemed to want to subvert civilian control of military power.

This is actually a pretty great analogy. If you don't mind, I'll even expand. Like trump, Dugout Doug, as he was known, was so enamored with himself that his staff was composed of toadies and sycophants. When Intelligence came pouring in about the Chinese being in Northern Korea in late 1950 his staff ignored it, and never even bothered to send it to MacArthur, who had no phone in his office. They derided the Chinese as "laundrymen" and thought they would never stand a chance. Some half million Chinese where in country at this point and nobody could convince Mac and his HQ of the fact. Even after the Chinese started attacks, and kicking American ass, MacArthur did nothing and his subordinates acted upon the faulty lies that they had previously swallowed.

The irony is not done. The one thing that saved American forces on the east coast of the peninsula was, no shiat, the First Marine Division under the command of a guy named OP Smith, who I liken to Mattis in many ways. The Marines laid down firepower that got everybody else out.

Read "The Coldest Winter" by David Halberstram. He goes into detail about it.

Rent Party: The word "Mutiny" is used in the farkin' headline, Sugartits.

Tell me what you imagine that word means.

Here, since I wrote it, I'll tell you.

A "mutiny" is different than a "coup".  A mutiny is a widespread failure to follow the orders of a superior in the chain of command.  A coup is the forcible removal of an existing power structure.  A mutiny need not include a coup, but a coup will almost always involve a mutiny.  Hell, you can even google the difference between "mutiny" and "coup", if you were so inclined.

If you'd read the Boobies in the thread, it specifically differentiated between the two.  Of the short English words at my disposal when writing the headline, "mutiny" was the closest word to "a UCMJ-compliant method of disobeying a direct order", because "a UCMJ-compliant method of disobeying a direct order" didn't fit in the headline field.  Moreover, everyone else who read the thread seems to have understood that.  Except you.

And regardless of the strict definitions of words, if there ARE failures to obey orders, it is a 100% lock that the Trump Administration will CALL it a "mutiny".  Unless the military is actively trying to remove him, in which case he'll call it a "coup".

It is a "there are serious farking consequences for failure to obey" thing.

Yes.  There are.  And leadership is indicating that they're willing to take those consequences, rather than follow expected potential orders.

Artisan Sandwich: silvervial: Snaps: I hope this is why the troops in DC seem so calm tonight, they don't have to worry about obeying insane orders.

I watched the seven hour live feed of that protest and the soldiers were pretty calm.

Most of them refused to look at the protesters and acknowledge their humanity, and there was one guy who looked like every fu*king stereotype of a alt-right hitler youth. Big blue eyes and all. I noted him, his expression of disdain barely held in check. How he refused to not only look at anyone in the eye, he wouldn't even look around at the scene in general. Black person after black person "walked the line" demanding respect and acknowledgement as a human being, but he didn't look once. I was getting more and more worried about him.

Then a white man, an older man, began to walk the line, holding up his military ID and declaring he was a veteran and he knew better than to face off against his own people when he was in uniform. He went up and down the line shaming them, and then stopped at Blue-Eyed Boy and told him the same things, directly to his face.

He suddenly started actually looking at people and the scene and the guys standing next to him and the people across from him.

And I felt a bit better. Blue-Eyed Boy seemed to have had a "come to Jesus moment" and I hope it sticks.

Wow. Quite an imagination you have there. That narrative didn't bubble out of your cauldron of stereotypes and theatrical drama at all.

Go fark yourself. That's what happened right on my computer screen. EABOD you twit.

Charlie Freak: bluejeansonfire: I bet anyone here $10 that this guy wrote this because Trump asked / ordered him to bomb literal cities. ( We've already done that before, in Philly, and it was the police that did it. ) I could see him musing about air-dropping a live nuke on a test range as a show of force demonstration (also pretty effective distraction). Oh gods. There were mutterings about a nuke test the other day. JFC, he didn't want to scare the Chinese, he wanted to scare protesters. What. The. Fark.  7 votes: AnEasyTarget: What's the law in US constitution that says only an order of congress can direct troops on US soil. It's from late 1800s post US civil war. Found it Knott Amendment; Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse​_​Comitatus_Act#Advisory_and_support_rol​es  7 votes: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police? When the Dotard decides to throw them under the bus in what will become to be known as "The Turning Point Tweet." And you know it's coming. The man can't help himself.  7 votes: hubiestubert: commit war crimes against American citizens on US land.  7 votes: GoldSpider: I wonder how much coverage this is going to get in the mainstream press. "President Trump today again declared his power and intent to use the military, including tanks, to crush protests in DC and around the country. Others disagree."  7 votes: What the hell was that: King Something: https://twitter.com/ChiefNGB/status/12​68335177484419073 USAF General Joseph Lengyel is siding with the protesters. He retweeted Milley as well. /I hate that retweeting has significance "The general's Twitter account. " *eye twitch*  7 votes: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here. It gives me hope. The military was always the wildcard. Though I kinda want to see a fist fight break out between actual soldiers and Barr's little green men  7 votes: Last part about Barr I included because people were saying this might go over Trumpy's head. No. Barr will fill him in.  7 votes: anuran: Cubansaltyballs: He knows how bad it would be. We're notweren't a 3rd world country. We've got tons of guns and resources that would make the Iraqi insurgency look like a petting zoo. He just doesn't want to think about those two awful awful choices... refuse orders or get blown up by his countrymen with homemade bombs in 3d printed drones. Hope I didn't FTFY. Really, really hope. Nah. We're a first world country that also includes southern shiathole states and 3rd world rural states that usually act as a ballast but are sometimes repurposed to be an anchor. After the pedo goblin whose mouth is too small for his face and has hands smaller than his 12 yr old son and raped a 7th grader is gone... We'll right the ship. Seriously, though. Look up the pics. Barron has bigger hands than the fat sack of crap that is little more than a Crushed Dyson Adderall model 3 with a broke dick and lifts in his shoes  7 votes: Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes? No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design. That's some pretty damn shiatty design. Heh, you want to hear shiatty, from 1962 to 1977, the code that unlocked the nukes was 00000000.  7 votes: King Something: Medic Zero: King Something: https://twitter.com/ChiefNGB/status/12​68335177484419073 USAF General Joseph Lengyel is siding with the protesters. Was this released publicly, or an internal memo that was leaked? Publicly. Published on General Lengyel's official Twitter account. The next meeting he has with Trump is either going to be full of shouting or just the normal awful that is working with Cheetolini. Can't wait to see the General taunt the derp monkey, especially if Trump doesn't find out about the subtext of the letter until commanders start refusing to obey illegal orders.  7 votes: Wow. Wow.  7 votes: So he'll be fired next week?  6 votes: quiotu: make me some tea: The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow. The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence. Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified. I'm not terribly surprised. This is the General that every time I saw him at a Trump presser or meeting, looked like he wanted to be anywhere else with every fiber of his being. His sworn duty to the country kept him there, but I have a feeling this guy hopes he's one of the people that gets to forcibly remove the pasty old coward from the Oval Office when it happens. Back when Trump did a press conference on the White House steps in early January ( I think it was about the assassination of the Iranian general in Iraq), Milley was the guy in uniform standing behind Trump, his eyes kept looking left and right as if he's thinking, "Somebody get me out of here!" He's also the guy in uniform immediately to Trump's right in this iconic photo:  6 votes: gozar_the_destroyer: You can buy drugs from them. Can't do that with mercs. Sure you can. In Vietnam, ROK troops were basically mercs and they were the go-to for opiates. You have a strange take on mercs.  6 votes:  6 votes: AnEasyTarget: What's the law in US constitution that says only an order of congress can direct troops on US soil. It's from late 1800s post US civil war. Posse Commitatus Act  6 votes: TelemonianAjax: FightDirector: So...quick question. Can anyone track down a digitized copy of this? I think I'd like to read it: https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/​dsp01cc08hh28h [Fark user image image 843x470] For the record, I'm coming up with nothing on TPB. I would also like a digitized copy if someone can find one. lemme look /Librarian  6 votes: Cubansaltyballs: But not this. Whatever it was. Live rounds against civilians would be my guess.  6 votes: cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here. Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military? He has this General Gerasimov fellow he chatted with: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/wo​r​ld/europe/russia-hybrid-war-gerasimov.​html  6 votes: Marcus Aurelius: The Pentagon is seriously pissed. They can't be the bad guys without endangering about a trillion dollars a year in defense spending. My thoughts exactly, especially when the former Esper, a former defense contractor opposed using the insurrection act. If the US military loses legitimacy that risks the pig trough for the profiteers. So, at base, I wonder if this really about America's real #1 value: profits for corporations.  6 votes: FnkyTwn: Trump either tries to play this off like 'of course we believe in free speech, i directed him to say that', or he's removed as Chairman. Probably being removed, because Trump never likes anybody who works for him saying negative shiat about him. It might not be this week, but it will be before Trump is out of office. Nah, read this through the Trump filter of a raving, delusional, power-hungry narcissist. "...all colors and creeds must [uphold their oath to the constitution]..." He reads it as "Blacks gotta shoot BLM protesters"  6 votes: ArkPanda: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things: 1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty. All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values. The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values. QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions. 2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny. Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command. Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum. He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people. NOT orders from the president. If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things. Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic. Serving military officers don't do that. They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago. There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ... You speak true. I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this. You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders. Now let's see how many individual officers refuse. You can include Mattis in this too. He may not be very popular around here but I think he's still popular with the military. Has anyone heard from McMaster lately? Even Esper wobbling is interesting in this light. When was the last time a Secretary of Defense contradicted the president on the military, in even the smallest way. Mattis has always been the only adult in this administration. And yeah, the grunts still like him because he was one of them  6 votes: Smoking GNU: lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ squads to DC. That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no? That could turn incredibly bad. Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials. A gunbattle between the military and a facist-takeover army loyal to the evil shouty yam of hate and chaos in DC? And you don't think it'd instantly spread all over the country with cries of "The military has betrayed dear leader" under the usual derp brigade? That's how you get 20 of insurgency and carbombings in your country. Good. Burn out the hornets.  6 votes: I want that sauce Morty!: apocryphaandmyth: ox45tallboy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ squads to DC. They aren't mercs. They're the prison riot squad. We've even got a thread about it. https://www.fark.com/comments/10835341 Although honestly it's not much of an improvement. Bringing the riot squad to a potential riot isn't stark raving madness. Bringing in mercenaries sure would be. Well a prison riot squad is probably used to being able to do things that you'd normally not get away with in full public view. However, the regular police are already shooting rubber bullets at people's eyes. So.... I'm not saying the prison riot squad is a measured, reasonable response to civil unrest. I'm saying it's on the map. It shares a border with territory that shares a border with reasonable.  6 votes: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny. It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies. It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that. It ain't happening, nor should it. Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy. In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for. they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do. Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president. Declining to follow Trumps orders can be the same as a coup depending on who they do decide to follow.  6 votes: Original: Original Tweet: This was nice. TY, subby .  5 votes: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Come to think of it (please correct me if I'm wrong), wasn't MacArthur the guy who opened fire on the Bonus Army? You are correct. The Attorney General ordered that the Bonus Army be removed from all federal property, MacArthur ordered the 12th Infantry and 3rd Cavalry to disperse the veterans (who were already in the process of leaving). The two units were supported by 6 light tanks under the direct tactical command of Major George Patton (yes, that one). Incidentally, Major Dwight Eisenhower was MacArthur's aide during the action, and he never approved of or forgot both the incident and the extremely enthusiastic way MacArthur demanded military action against the veterans, or the way MacArthur put himself out in front of the cameras during the action. /it's also worthwhile to remember that there was a second Bonus Army a few years later. Instead of the tank and bayonet as Hoover did, FDR met them with soup kitchens and negotiation, and instead of dispersing them with military power enlisted something like 100,00 of them in the Civilian Conservation Corps, forming the backbone of that organization.  5 votes: Cornelis de Gyselaer: TelemonianAjax: FightDirector: So...quick question. Can anyone track down a digitized copy of this? I think I'd like to read it: https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/​dsp01cc08hh28h [Fark user image image 843x470] For the record, I'm coming up with nothing on TPB. I would also like a digitized copy if someone can find one. lemme look /Librarian Librarians are wonderful people. I wish I had gone to get my MLS instead of MA in political studies in a world before Facebook. Suddenly, everything I was taught no longer mattered because money is speech and algorithms serve ads. It's like getting a degree in chemistry just before the atomic bomb revolutionized the field - happened to my grandpa. Anyway, thank you for your service in the war against ignorance.  5 votes: Farking Barr on the tube right now blaming, specifically Antifa, (and "other organizations") as instigating violence at the protests. Only Antifa, what about the farking Boogaloo boys? More defamation happening under this corrupt admin. What's he going to do now that the generals are Antifa?  5 votes: BadReligion: JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is." https://twitter.com/tomperrine/status/​1267677198615343105 Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians.  5 votes: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"? No, it has not!  5 votes: RE: A Critical Analysis of Revolutionary Guerrilla Organization in Theory and Practice It's a thesis so this will be tricky Worldcat has nothing TPB also 185 pages so not just a quick scan It's a senior thesis for an undergrad degree so it's a nope Here is the cite in dataspace, manuscript (!) only https://dataspace.princeton.edu/jspui​/​handle/88435/dsp01cc08hh28h  5 votes: FnkyTwn: Trump either tries to play this off like 'of course we believe in free speech, i directed him to say that', or he's removed as Chairman. Probably being removed, because Trump never likes anybody who works for him saying negative shiat about him. It might not be this week, but it will be before Trump is out of office. Yeah, he'd have to remove the entirety of the Joint Chiefs of Staff... They're pretty close to unanimous.  5 votes: Jiggatron69: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny. It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies. It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that. It ain't happening, nor should it. Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy. In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for. Which is why you see Barr bringing in randos then folding them into one unit under his command for the crapshow at the park when president bunkerboy wanted to walk to the park. People dont understand how many off the book assets are out there and they are steadily being brought to bear against the American people now. So would it be accurate to say, rich corporate backed private security forces are being deployed against Americans?  5 votes: erik-k: cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here. Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military? Whether he does or not, it doesn't matter because the Russian military is in and near Russia and the American military is in America... How's this for a nightmare? The US military refuses to back him up, and he asks Dom-Daddy Vlad for military help. The MAGATS would all cheer because he's being tough and Maverick. The US military would give birth to a porcupine, breech presentation.  5 votes: TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things: 1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty. All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values. The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values. QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions. 2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny. Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command. Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum. He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people. NOT orders from the president. If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things. Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic. Serving military officers don't do that. They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago. There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and ov ... I get the impression that is what triggered it, at least partly.  5 votes: cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here. Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military? Whether he does or not, it doesn't matter because the Russian military is in and near Russia and the American military is in America...  5 votes: Cubansaltyballs: He knows how bad it would be. We're notweren't a 3rd world country. We've got tons of guns and resources that would make the Iraqi insurgency look like a petting zoo. He just doesn't want to think about those two awful awful choices... refuse orders or get blown up by his countrymen with homemade bombs in 3d printed drones. Hope I didn't FTFY. Really, really hope.  5 votes: BadReligion: JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is." https://twitter.com/tomperrine/status/​1267677198615343105 Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians. Jesus farking Christ. (Yes, that will be filtered) That sounds like Egypt under Morsi, after they kicked out Mubarak. Now look what they've got.  5 votes: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter... I think something happened behind closed doors. I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page. I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors. All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men. One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too. Mattis isn't behind said doors these days. And SecDef is just covering his ass.  5 votes: So this is what the GOP pivot looks like. Let Dumbtr*mp run things into the ground, and then swoop in and save us. YAY!  5 votes: quiotu: make me some tea: The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow. The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence. Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified. I'm not terribly surprised. This is the General that every time I saw him at a Trump presser or meeting, looked like he wanted to be anywhere else with every fiber of his being. His sworn duty to the country kept him there, but I have a feeling this guy hopes he's one of the people that gets to forcibly remove the pasty old coward from the Oval Office when it happens. Much like Mattis and Kelly caught in video shots.  4 votes: anuran: foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"? MacArthur pretty much did. He was relieved of his command and rightly so. This time, I dunno. Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic. Truman had also been a Captain in combat back when units elected their officers. He knew the score. In his biography he said "I didn't fire MacArthur for being a stupid son of a biatch, which he was. If that were a crime half the generals and congressmen would be in jail. I fired him for disobeying his commanding officer." If Truman or Eisenhower or Kennedy or Teddy Roosevelt were alive today and could see what the occupant of !600 Pennsylvania Avenue was doing.... Truman; "This administration is a stain on America. Everyone connected with it should be investigated and prosecuted for treason." Eisenhower: "At the very least." Kennedy; "One hundred percent, absolutely agree." Roosevelt: "Screw that. I say we just shoot the bastards." Eisenhower: "Yeah, I'm for that, too."  4 votes: trotsky: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"? MacArthur pretty much did. He was relieved of his command and rightly so. This time, I dunno. Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic. MacArthur was in many ways a military Trump - an arrogant egotist who thought he deserved to be Kinged 'God'. MacArthur, unlike Trump, actually had intelligence and competency. But he still seemed to want to subvert civilian control of military power. This is actually a pretty great analogy. If you don't mind, I'll even expand. Like trump, Dugout Doug, as he was known, was so enamored with himself that his staff was composed of toadies and sycophants. When Intelligence came pouring in about the Chinese being in Northern Korea in late 1950 his staff ignored it, and never even bothered to send it to MacArthur, who had no phone in his office. They derided the Chinese as "laundrymen" and thought they would never stand a chance. Some half million Chinese where in country at this point and nobody could convince Mac and his HQ of the fact. Even after the Chinese started attacks, and kicking American ass, MacArthur did nothing and his subordinates acted upon the faulty lies that they had previously swallowed. The irony is not done. The one thing that saved American forces on the east coast of the peninsula was, no shiat, the First Marine Division under the command of a guy named OP Smith, who I liken to Mattis in many ways. The Marines laid down firepower that got everybody else out. Mock26: military Come to think of it (please correct me if I'm wrong), wasn't MacArthur the guy who opened fire on the Bonus Army? A group of American military veterans who marched on Washington, D.C., as a protest, asking only that the government make good on its obligations, commitments, and promises to them. And what did they get, for having the temerity to ask that the ruling powers simply pay their bill? These WWI vererans, some of whom were accompanied by wives and children, were met by Douglas MacArthur, with infantry, cavalry, and SIX FRICKIN' TANKS! These protestors were fired upon, driven away, and their shelters and belongings were burned.  4 votes: foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"? MacArthur pretty much did. He was relieved of his command and rightly so. This time, I dunno. Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic. Truman had also been a Captain in combat back when units elected their officers. He knew the score. In his biography he said "I didn't fire MacArthur for being a stupid son of a biatch, which he was. If that were a crime half the generals and congressmen would be in jail. I fired him for disobeying his commanding officer." If Truman or Eisenhower or Kennedy or Teddy Roosevelt were alive today and could see what the occupant of !600 Pennsylvania Avenue was doing....  4 votes: JohnnyApocalypse: TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things: 1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty. All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values. The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values. QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions. 2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny. Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command. Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum. He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people. NOT orders from the president. If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things. Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic. Serving military officers don't do that. They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago. There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and ov ... I take it, though, that not all those officials were on the same page as Trump. They were there to lend authority to Trump's call to arms against the protest. Milley may have disagreed with Trump's invocation of the military, but as Trump layed it out in his speech, he was within his authority to make the declaration. (paraphrase) "Governors will use all means including national guard to quell the riots. If I deem the governors unable to stop the violence, I will be forced to use the US military to do it." Because that is exactly what the Insurrection Act allows, the military has to go along with it. So there they all are, and some people know what's about to go down next, mainly Ivanka and Barr. Barr starts scoping out the protester lines. This was a big thing that people noted. He was taking active interest in it. Then someone (probably Barr, directly or indirectly) ordered state police to push the protesters back before curfew. Those officials NOT in the know would hear the protesters being cleared, but they wouldn't necessarily understand the circumstances, nor who was reacting to whom. Milley would thus accompany the Clown-in-Chief across the street, and then see the pictures taken with a bible. On the way, he would see the effects of the state police, but again, not necessarily know the full details of what just transpired. But once he saw the photo op... if you look at the pictures of the officials standing by, there are A LOT of sour and dour faces. It doesn't take long for officials to put 2 and 2 together, and then news reports and video would confirm it later for them. Milley DID get roasted by pundits for making that walk, and most likely that burned in his belly. He was set up along with a number of others to imbue Trump with some sort of presidential authority that he had just abused, staining all those officials who wouldn't have agreed with the actions. So you might want to hold your fire on Milley before calling him out. Sure, some of this might be to save face; but it's not written as an excuse, it's written as a directive. Also, for those saying that Trump is surrounded by amoral nincompoops, that is about 90% correct, but you're forgetting about Barr, who has probably kept Trump from being convicted during impeachment, stalled out nearly every court proceeding against Trump, and helped remove many executive branch safeguards in the form of IGs and other career personnel who could rat out malfeasance. Barr might use the most demented of rationales for justifying whatever DOJ command he orders, but it's worked thus far, and he knows the margins of rules and laws that both Trump and his department continue to skirt. You'd think anyone that has been around President Tweety that long knows better than to take his word on anything.  4 votes: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things: 1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty. All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values. The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values. QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions. 2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny. Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command. Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum. He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people. NOT orders from the president. If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things. Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic. Serving military officers don't do that. They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago. There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ... You speak true. I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this. You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders. Now let's see how many individual officers refuse. I bet he's been working on it since at least October 16, 2019.  4 votes: WilderKWight: Why do I suspect that the actual 2nd American Civil War is going to be a series of battles with the majority of the armed forces on one side and the nation's police, Barr's secret army, and civilian militia groups on the other? When this comes to a head, it's going to be a bad day to be a cop, methinks. Or ICE, CBP, and Prison Riot Patrol (Barr's secret reserves) If we are lucky it will be Erik Prince too and he can be dealt with  4 votes: Why do I suspect that the actual 2nd American Civil War is going to be a series of battles with the majority of the armed forces on one side and the nation's police, Barr's secret army, and civilian militia groups on the other? When this comes to a head, it's going to be a bad day to be a cop, methinks.  4 votes: Archie Goodwin: RaymondQGillet: I hate to bust up the circlejerk, but support for Trump remains high among the enlisted. Talking about oaths and service to the community is nice, but it's just talk. Historically, the involvement of the National Guard has not gone well for us. If the top brass is hoping that troops will choose them over their pyrite idol, they're probably doomed to disappointment. If the enlisted go rogue then they can support Donnie* from Leavenworth. From which they will be pardoned and reinstated. Did you forget about Sealy McWarcrimes? Besides which, none of that will undo whatever damage they choose to do. The cops live in the communities they ostensibly serve, and they were just looking for an excuse to open up on us. Our PD has already put out a statement about escalation of force if we try to cover tear gas cannisters. A peaceful protestor lost an eye to a rubber bullet. The cop didn't bounce it off of shiat, just shot him straight in the face. And this was all after peacefully interacting with our protest leaders. One girl even gave them flowers. So what are these guys from out of town going to be willing to do to us?  4 votes: Cubansaltyballs: And just to clarify because sometimes I'm kind of subtle about it... I'm not like, a fan of president never ate a salad in his worthless disgusting puke existence because he grew up to look like his wretched mom that looked like a carney f*cked a cotton candy machine and produced a frizzy haired loser scumbag sack of shiat that has lived a life of rage because he's not a real man. You. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter...:)  4 votes: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police? wouldn't that be a sight!?  4 votes: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police? Police are inherently cowardly authoritarians. They'll listen to daddy and be on their best church behavior.  4 votes: chawco: yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny. It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies. It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that. It ain't happening, nor should it. Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy. In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for. they don't have the legal authority to remove him from the White House. They can decline to follow his orders if they think they've is illegal, but that's all they can do. Anything else is in fact a military coup. Only Congress can remove the president. His cabinet can remove him under the 25th Amendment, but their too busy with their snouts in the trough to do anything about it.  4 votes: I bet anyone here$10 that this guy wrote this because Trump asked / ordered him to bomb literal cities.

( We've already done that before, in Philly, and it was the police that did it. )

rightClick: mikalmd: Is it article 25 time yet ?

how do you plan on getting pence to cooperate to make this happen?

Becoming POTUS might be an incentive

Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

Although it is a member of the military that holds the football.
He could literally run away with it.

The military does directly control physical launches, ie men and woman in the silos, captains of subs, wing commanders of bombers.

/the call to space force or whoever's in the mountain could go challenged.
// actual launch commands are sent electronically via ASC.
/// DISA via the ASC's can stop the electronic command. The missile silo folks, wing commanders, and sub captains would never get the command.

PreciousHamburgers: He's a Seminar XXI grad along with Mike Rogers. That means a lot.

/Met them both there, extremely briefly.

For those of us not well versed in such matters, what does it mean?

gopher321: Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?

Hopefully, putting the final touches on a 25th Amendment document

I wonder how much coverage this is going to get in the mainstream press.

So Milley isn't "his" general anymore?

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.

Thugs?  As in, overly-militarized police?  No.

But it may stop some...or a lot...of military personnel from joining said thugs.

/personally, I expect Trump to fire some of the signatories to that letter
//or try to
///interesting times

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

Wasn't Milley involved with donnie's photo stunt the other night? If so, this seems a little bit hypocritical.

joepennerlives: Shaggy_C: Lot of reading between the lines going on here. Sounds more like he's pushing all accountability to the governors and saying anything the guardsmen do that is illegal or against the spirit of the constitution is therefore the governor's responsibility.

Echoes of Trump's coronavirus response, actually.

Take another look at the letter.

Point #2 makes it pretty clear that the national guard is operating under the orders of state governors, full stop. On the one hand he says the troops uphold the constitution, and on the other he's saying the governors are the ones in charge. A bit of the old "look, we want to do our best, but if something goes wrong, those guys are to blame, not me."

Call me a cynic, but I never take anything from someone in Trump's orbit without immediate suspicion.

scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

He's a Seminar XXI grad along with Mike Rogers. That means a lot.

/Met them both there, extremely briefly.

Klyukva: Kazan: Klyukva: / We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.

I didn't see a single democrat saying that.

Then you weren't reading the FARK politics tab.

JohnnyApocalypse: TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered h ...

Thanks for that. I needed a rational rebuttal to my irrational rant. This sh*t gets my dander up.

mysha: quiotu: make me some tea: The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow.

The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence.

Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified.

I'm not terribly surprised. This is the General that every time I saw him at a Trump presser or meeting, looked like he wanted to be anywhere else with every fiber of his being.

His sworn duty to the country kept him there, but I have a feeling this guy hopes he's one of the people that gets to forcibly remove the pasty old coward from the Oval Office when it happens.

Back when Trump did a press conference on the White House steps in early January ( I think it was about the assassination of the Iranian general in Iraq), Milley was the guy in uniform standing behind Trump, his eyes kept looking left and right as if he's thinking, "Somebody get me out of here!"

He's also the guy in uniform immediately to Trump's right in this iconic photo:
[pbs.twimg.com image 680x383]

Interesting. I'd forgotten he was in that photo. Wow.

Target Builder: I'm wondering what sort of pressure the WH has being trying to put on the military behind closed doors that generated this.

The stuff in the media is bad. Extremely bad. But I'm not sure it alone is enough to prompt the public release of a letter like that.

There must be an absolute shiat show going on between the WH and Pentagon.

Whatever it was knowing President Tweety it was illegal and racist, like he ordered the military to plant strange fruit using protesters as seeds.

Trump is going to make the Joint Chiefs choose between a Baathist purge amongst their ranks or a coup de etat?

TWX: For all the threads that postulate what would happen if Trump loses and refuses to acknowledge that he lost in November through Inaguration in January, this is all the proof that you need that Trump's Presidency would be over.  The military has just been told to adhere to their oath to the Constitution, to the people of the United States.

I just hope their understanding of the Constitution is to the *actual* Constitution and not some warped right-wing, Sovereign Citizen version.

foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

He was relieved of his command and rightly so.  This time, I dunno.  Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic.

MacArthur was in many ways a military Trump - an arrogant egotist who thought he deserved to be Kinged 'God'.

MacArthur, unlike Trump, actually had intelligence and competency.  But he still seemed to want to subvert civilian control of military power.

GreatGlavinsGhost: Original: Original Tweet:

waltshaub: Of the three letters making news tonight, this one is the big deal. It is a big deal that he felt the need to issue it. It is a big deal that he issued it. https://t.co/ONHniXXLst

[Fark user image image 425x279]

We seem to have gotten to the point where a declaration of fidelity to the Constitution is an implicit repudiation of the President.
- Ned Snood (@NedSnood) June 4, 2020

Free Radical: Nothing would make me happier than to see Eric Prince and his mercs get annihilated by the US military.

No Quarter.

That's the worst part. They will be easily dealt with AND given quarter. And tried. And rot in jail. And the US armed forces wouldn't even break a sweat. They might even do it as a team building exercise between the Navy Seals, the Army's Delta Force, the first Marine Division, and the Air force's overflying with a squad or 5 of A-10s.

Basically a life fire training exercise.

RaymondQGillet: I hate to bust up the circlejerk, but support for Trump remains high among the enlisted. Talking about oaths and service to the community is nice, but it's just talk. Historically, the involvement of the National Guard has not gone well for us. If the top brass is hoping that troops will choose them over their pyrite idol, they're probably doomed to disappointment.

If the enlisted go rogue then they can support Donnie* from Leavenworth.

Smoking GNU: LrdPhoenix: Smoking GNU: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

That's some pretty damn shiatty design.

Heh, you want to hear shiatty, from 1962 to 1977, the code that unlocked the nukes was 00000000.

One of my favorites is where they used to store the cores before loading them into the bomb/airplane. In a shack at the end of the runway. Why yes, a bomber crashed into the shack.

Cubansaltyballs: lolmao500: Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/conf​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

No they wouldn't.

3/4 support the military when they are the good guys. Only 26% will support the military gunning down American civilians.

Unless those civilians are police officers gunning down their fellow citizens.

Stupid Guitar: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Given that this is one of the leakiest administrations ever, we'll probably hear about it on Friday.

Klyukva: mrparks: So this is what the GOP pivot looks like. Let Dumbtr*mp run things into the ground, and then swoop in and save us.

YAY!

Once again proving that for people like you, the problem was never with what Trump did but with which party he belonged too.

/ We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.
// Thankfully that didn't come close to happening.

Yeah.... wut? If Bloomberg were the nominee, would we unite behind the republican other than trump or trump if the goal was to remove... trump. If anything, your statement shows it's less about party and just the need for anything other than the shiat gibbon. FFS, did you even think about the point you're trying to make? How many viable candidate choices do you think there are in a presidential election?

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of

FnkyTwn: Trump either tries to play this off like 'of course we believe in free speech, i directed him to say that', or he's removed as Chairman. Probably being removed, because Trump never likes anybody who works for him saying negative shiat about him. It might not be this week, but it will be before Trump is out of office.

Of course, nowhere in this letter does it actually mention Trump, just an exhortation to uphold American ideals.  Sure, potato, potahto, but still.

mikalmd: Is it article 25 time yet ?

how do you plan on getting pence to cooperate to make this happen?

Koodz: somedude210: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

It gives me hope. The military was always the wildcard. Though I kinda want to see a fist fight break out between actual soldiers and Barr's little green men

One on one I'd put my money on Barr's little green men. Actual soldiers tend to spend more time making their beds than training hand to hand unless it's their hobby while prison guards beat the shiat out of people all the time.

NG maybe. Active duty folks, especially from Bragg or Drum? I wouldn't want to f*ck with them

BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

How do I know that you know absolutely nothing about how the system actually works?

Fake news witch hoax so-called General!  He's fired!

Cubansaltyballs: lolmao500: Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/conf​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%

I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.

No they wouldn't.

3/4 support the military when they are the good guys. Only 26% will support the military gunning down American civilians.

L'INTERNATIONALE Marc Ogeret sings in French with English and French lyrics onscreen

King Something: Medic Zero: King Something: https://twitter.com/ChiefNGB/status/12​68335177484419073

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

Publicly. Published on General Lengyel's official Twitter account.

Thank you.

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

I do hope you are righter than right. My Dad was Air Force but he was out before he met my Mom so I don't really have any solid grounding in Military things.

PunGent: Do you know the way to Mordor: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.

Perhaps as many as the number of JAGoffs working on Trump's Tinyman Square speech!

Hadn't heard that one; I shall be stealing it :)

You can credit Stephen Colbert with that witty comment about Trump's speech, not me!

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stephe​n​-colbert-trump-tiny-man-square_n_5ed88​517c5b6dfbd777f5c77

erik-k: TwowheelinTim: ansius: [image.newsvoice.com image 640x380]

I bet Milley didn't like being ambushed into being an extra in trump's ridiculous photo op.

But yes, the way I'm reading this is that this is instructions to his officers to remember to refuse orders that are illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical.

So yeah, a sh*tbag hypocrite: do as I say, not as I do. Again, f*ck this asshole with a rusty horseshoe.

Do you think that an active duty military officer gets a choice when the CinC says "follow me for a walk?"

Officers of the United States military are required to refuse unlawful orders, but the moral degradation of being a prop for one of the Traitor's PR stunts does not rise to the level of an unlawful order.

Does it not occur to you that what donnie and his team did was unlawful?

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

While you're making things up that people are getting excited about a "military coup"  how about imagining me a steak or something...I'm hungry and lazy at the same time.

The word "Mutiny" is used in the farkin' headline, Sugartits.

Tell me what you imagine that word means.

anuran: foo monkey: ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

He was relieved of his command and rightly so.  This time, I dunno.  Say what you want about Truman, but he wasn't raving lunatic.

Truman had also been a Captain in combat  back when units elected their officers. He knew the score. In his biography he said "I didn't fire MacArthur for being a stupid son of a biatch, which he was. If that were a crime half the generals and congressmen would be in jail. I fired him for disobeying his commanding officer."

If Truman or Eisenhower or Kennedy or Teddy Roosevelt were alive today and could see what the occupant of !600 Pennsylvania Avenue was doing....

At the very least we would be learning some new language

RaymondQGillet: Archie Goodwin: RaymondQGillet: I hate to bust up the circlejerk, but support for Trump remains high among the enlisted. Talking about oaths and service to the community is nice, but it's just talk. Historically, the involvement of the National Guard has not gone well for us. If the top brass is hoping that troops will choose them over their pyrite idol, they're probably doomed to disappointment.

If the enlisted go rogue then they can support Donnie* from Leavenworth.

From which they will be pardoned and reinstated. Did you forget about Sealy McWarcrimes? Besides which, none of that will undo whatever damage they choose to do.

The cops live in the communities they ostensibly serve, and they were just looking for an excuse to open up on us. Our PD has already put out a statement about escalation of force if we try to cover tear gas cannisters. A peaceful protestor lost an eye to a rubber bullet. The cop didn't bounce it off of shiat, just shot him straight in the face. And this was all after peacefully interacting with our protest leaders. One girl even gave them flowers. So what are these guys from out of town going to be willing to do to us?

That is the problem they do NOT live in the community

8% of th MPD live in the city

https://www.startribune.com/few-minne​a​polis-cops-live-inside-city-limits/441​581413/

AdrienVeidt: BeesNuts: AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

This is an official public statement from one of the highest ranking military officials in our country explicitly instructing every member of every branch of the armed service to ... not do that.

And having jack shiat for effect because their oaths mean shiat.

I guess we'll find out.  Hopefully you're wrong.

thorpe: RaymondQGillet: I hate to bust up the circlejerk, but support for Trump remains high among the enlisted.

No it doesn't. It had dropped to 43% last December, and it's reasonable to say it's even lower now.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pen​tagon-congress/2019/12/17/half-of-acti​ve-duty-service-members-are-unhappy-wi​th-trump-new-military-times-poll-shows​/

"Among the enlisted force, the recent survey showed a 43 percent favorable rating. "

Still higher than the general populace. That's to be expected as the Armed Forces draws from the same pool that Trump does for support. That is the subset of people that subscribe to the mantra that "Might Makes Right." (Needless to point out here that it historically has not.)

gopher321: Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?

That's a damn good question! It's very interesting that there has been virtually no articles, tweets, commentaries, etc. asking the same question.

bluejeansonfire: Dave The Slushy: Charlie Freak: bluejeansonfire: I bet anyone here $10 that this guy wrote this because Trump asked / ordered him to bomb literal cities. ( We've already done that before, in Philly, and it was the police that did it. ) I could see him musing about air-dropping a live nuke on a test range as a show of force demonstration (also pretty effective distraction). Oh gods. There were mutterings about a nuke test the other day. JFC, he didn't want to scare the Chinese, he wanted to scare protesters. What. The. Fark. I don't doubt for a nanosecond that Trump would nuke Minneapolis. It's a liberal city, just in general, and I'm sure he'd love to nuke liberal cities. But it also kills protesters and plants the seed of terror in the minds of protesters in other cities. LA or NYC before MPLS  2 votes: Shaggy_C: joepennerlives: Shaggy_C: Lot of reading between the lines going on here. Sounds more like he's pushing all accountability to the governors and saying anything the guardsmen do that is illegal or against the spirit of the constitution is therefore the governor's responsibility. Echoes of Trump's coronavirus response, actually. Take another look at the letter. Point #2 makes it pretty clear that the national guard is operating under the orders of state governors, full stop. On the one hand he says the troops uphold the constitution, and on the other he's saying the governors are the ones in charge. A bit of the old "look, we want to do our best, but if something goes wrong, those guys are to blame, not me." Call me a cynic, but I never take anything from someone in Trump's orbit without immediate suspicion. Perhaps he wanted the National Guard to understand that their governors might be issuing illegal orders, and those orders should not interfere with defending the Constitution and American citizens.  2 votes: somedude210: Koodz: somedude210: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here. It gives me hope. The military was always the wildcard. Though I kinda want to see a fist fight break out between actual soldiers and Barr's little green men One on one I'd put my money on Barr's little green men. Actual soldiers tend to spend more time making their beds than training hand to hand unless it's their hobby while prison guards beat the shiat out of people all the time. NG maybe. Active duty folks, especially from Bragg or Drum? I wouldn't want to f*ck with them Don't fark with us Drummies. We're tempered in Chemical Creek when it's -40 out. /Chemical Creek eats the laces off your boots and turns the leather white //parts of it glow at night in the summer  2 votes: bluejeansonfire: I bet anyone here$10 that this guy wrote this because Trump asked / ordered him to bomb literal cities.

( We've already done that before, in Philly, and it was the police that did it. )

I could see him musing about air-dropping a live nuke on a test range as a show of force demonstration (also pretty effective distraction).

rightClick: mikalmd: Is it article 25 time yet ?

how do you plan on getting pence to cooperate to make this happen?

Pence wants the presidency the same way a starving dog wants a steak.  Notice how he held back at the White House while Trump was out gassing priests and clubbing Americans?

Jiggatron69: He's got the organization, funding, manpower and desire to make whatever nightmare trump cooks up happen

He doesn't have any legal cover.  And he has a LOT of money.  If a single one of his employees harmed an American citizen?  I'd love to be their lawyer.

Jesus christ why did I read this.  Can this all cool down now before shiat goes any further?  IT DOES NOT NEED TO GO FURTHER.

Stupid Guitar: Cubansaltyballs: When secdef basically recanted and this letter and Mattis' letter...

I think something happened behind closed doors.

I think Trump said something so catastrophically alarming or gave an order so frightening they all got on the same page.

I am curious if he asked or started talking about tanks and Apache's and shooting protestors.

All these guys coming together like that didnt do it because of media pressure or from the shiat we saw on the news. Whatever it was, it was behind closed doors and scared the living shiat out of all these men.

One day we'll hear what it was and it'll terrify us, too.

Given that this is one of the leakiest administrations ever, we'll probably hear about it on Friday.

This post made me realize that Trump is likely just as cheap about the diapers he buys as he is his suits, and with the same lack of concern whether they fit.

Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: Cubansaltyballs: FightDirector: shpritz: It's possible. But that's a lot of assumption. I think Mattis is just reacting to more or less what we're all seeing. Trump said in public that he wants the military to quell the protests. You don't need any inside information to come to the conclussions that Mattis came to.

Quick point.  Evidently there are several other publicly released memos as well. This is just the highest-priority one.  Here are two of them.  Note that these are all coming out essentially simultaneously, which would indicate to me a smaller degree of coincidence that you're ascribing.

[Fark user image image 850x967]

[Fark user image image 850x1097]

I've got my hunch. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

But I just don't see all them doing that because of what they saw on the news.

For clarity, I was supporting your view.  I think that of the various theories ascribed thus far, yours is probably the closest to being correct.  Someone high up in the civilian command structure said or did something, and given the only faster-than-light communication method known to man is the military rumor mill, word of that flashed around the military as they heard what they might be expected to do.  There's too many memos all hitting the same rhetorical points, in too short a time, and SecDef's flip is too fast, to be the result of media or public pressure: it almost has to be an internal matter.

Exactly.

I thought you were agreeing they all  saw the same news report and took it upon themselves to do wild shiat.

Something really crazy happened. We'll find out one day. Like all the times when we found out how close we came to nuclear war 20 years after the event.

It couldn't just be that he said something dumb. No one would care. His dumb crazy thing probably started moving and it freaked everyone out.

William Barr wants the nuclear football.

Cubansaltyballs: I think the real life version of the Downfall bunker scene happened in the oval office last night.

mr intrepid: king of vegas: ox45tallboy: BafflerMeal: mr intrepid: This also means the president has lost access to the launch codes?

No. There is literally no check and balance to the nuclear football. By design.

Oh yes there are.

We've averted WWIII on multiple occasions when verified orders came through but the guys on watch wouldn't turn the keys. The orders turned out to be screwups, but it's only because those orders were disobeyed that we aren't in Fallout 4.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o​f_nuclear_close_calls

I've got faith in the system. American watch guys may have been in their share of  trouble in the past with the testing scandals and what not, but they do have access to current events. Literally none of them want to start WWIII, and I think they'll have a grasp on the situation if the orders ever do come through.

Even if we don't start it, maybe someone else would.

The persistent story is that, during the dark days of Watergate, instructions were sent out to ignore launch directives without verification from an independent source.

Yeah, there's that, but I mean maybe Russia or China or wherever. They don't even need to send a nuke at us, if they drop a nuke anywhere in the world it could set off a chain reaction.

GWSuperfan: Cubansaltyballs: Definitely the officer corps.

The rank and file... probably not.

Eh, I know plenty of lower-level officers and senior enlisted and W-Xes that will be on the friction point between command and the actual boots on the ground. Most of them are horrified at the prospect of even being put in their current position, and will likely balk at relaying orders that they think might be illegal.

I only know a few active ones. I was chatting with one of them. Asked him what he thought. He brushed it off as "never gonna happen so don't fret about it" kind of thing.

He knows how bad it would be. We're not a 3rd world country. We've got tons of guns and resources that would make the Iraqi insurgency look like a petting zoo. He just doesn't want to think about those two awful awful choices... refuse orders or get blown up by his countrymen with homemade bombs in 3d printed drones.

SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Soon

lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

If the army refuses his orders, maybe they won't be anywhere nearby to slaughter the fascists.  The army says no, we're not gonna go shoot the civvies, and Trump gets that worrisome no-ID private army to do it instead.  The army might be elsewhere.

mrparks: So this is what the GOP pivot looks like. Let Dumbtr*mp run things into the ground, and then swoop in and save us.

YAY!

Once again proving that for people like you, the problem was never with what Trump did but with which party he belonged too.

/ We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.
// Thankfully that didn't come close to happening.

ReaverZ: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

MacArthur pretty much did.

So did Patton.

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.

maddog2030: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?

 1 vote:

Klyukva: Kazan: Klyukva: / We also saw it when party-before-principles Democrats said people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary.

I didn't see a single democrat saying that.

Then you weren't reading the FARK politics tab.

It's possible you weren't reading it critically.  There were a few people promoting Bloomberg (hilariously) and a couple people who used Bloomberg as a test case to see if people would be willing to pledge to vote for Bloomberg if he won.

I'm not sure I'd characterize that as saying "people should rally behind Bloomberg if he won the primary." and certain not as being said verifiably by democrats.  I know at least one of them vanished as soon as Bloomberg did, and another is still around fash-ing it up in protest threads.

I wouldn't call either of those two democrats, would you?

 1 vote:

TwowheelinTim: JohnnyApocalypse: TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered h ...

Thanks for that. I needed a rational rebuttal to my irrational rant. This sh*t gets my dander up.

Np, dude. Milley and the rest still have a level of complicity to be angry about, and that is a whole 'nother debate.

1) at what point could they no longer ignore that Trump lacked the brains, temperament, and loyalty to be an adequate leader of the nation?

2) which is the responsible action once they've figured it out? Resign? Guide from within? Go out in a blaze of glory?  Maybe the answer is more complex, or maybe people are overthinking it. My gut says "resign with full candor", but maybe without enough leadership remaining, we might fall prey to something like a sudden concerted attack.

There's no denying the stench of bullshiat excuses still lingers in the air; though for me, even with the bullshiat, I would give Republican senators and WH staff some slack were they just to help us clean up Trump's mess. After, they can abjectly mea culpa and plead for a second chance or a mitigating paragraph in the history books. It's too important to keep people in place to clean up. You can be sure few Republicans will in fact break with Trump anyway, so no need to consider even short term mercy and grace. They rolled the dice on Trumpism, and we all came up snake eyes.

 1 vote:

BeesNuts: AdrienVeidt: Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

This is an official public statement from one of the highest ranking military officials in our country explicitly instructing every member of every branch of the armed service to ... not do that.

And having jack shiat for effect because their oaths mean shiat.

 1 vote:
Gosh, such a rebuke!  It sure is nice to see the military do jack shiat except wipe their asses with their oaths.

 1 vote:

Dave The Slushy: Charlie Freak: bluejeansonfire: I bet anyone here \$10 that this guy wrote this because Trump asked / ordered him to bomb literal cities.

( We've already done that before, in Philly, and it was the police that did it. )

I could see him musing about air-dropping a live nuke on a test range as a show of force demonstration (also pretty effective distraction).

Oh gods. There were mutterings about a nuke test the other day. JFC, he didn't want to scare the Chinese, he wanted to scare protesters.

What. The. Fark.

I don't doubt for a nanosecond that Trump would nuke Minneapolis.

It's a liberal city, just in general, and I'm sure he'd love to nuke liberal cities.
But it also kills protesters and plants the seed of terror in the minds of protesters in other cities.

 1 vote:

Smoking GNU: lolmao500: Boo_Guy: GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.

That's rather disturbing to think about. Did they put their own little private army together to carry out their deeds in case the actual army tells them no?

Would it? The army would slaughter the fascist scumbags shooting at americans, it would save us a ton of money in lawyers and trials.

A gunbattle between the military and a  facist-takeover army loyal to the evil shouty yam of hate and chaos in DC? And you don't think it'd instantly spread all over the country with cries of "The military has betrayed dear leader" under the usual derp brigade? That's how you get 20 of insurgency and carbombings in your country.

If we've got an unrest modifier of greater than 15% or more we can spend prestige points to decrease the unrest. Prestige levels are low now anyway, who cares about another 20 points? After that we can just use admin points to get an extra diplomat to smooth things a bit with our trading partners. "I don't like supply lines" isn't going to work for this run since the continent is in control of like 9 trade nodes. We can always attempt to steer trade from our neighbor's, but with such low prestige they won't really go for it. We probably should have switched out Native Policy to "integrate" instead of "subjugate" but that's way too late now. All we can do is just try to maximize profits to pay back our loans.

 1 vote:

somedude210: Koodz: somedude210: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

It gives me hope. The military was always the wildcard. Though I kinda want to see a fist fight break out between actual soldiers and Barr's little green men

One on one I'd put my money on Barr's little green men. Actual soldiers tend to spend more time making their beds than training hand to hand unless it's their hobby while prison guards beat the shiat out of people all the time.

NG maybe. Active duty folks, especially from Bragg or Drum? I wouldn't want to f*ck with them

I'm telling you what I've heard from active duty folks more than once. Hand to hand training isn't a priority in the US military. Real soldiers have a physical fitness edge but they don't spend much time at all hitting each other.

 1 vote:

FightDirector: So...quick question.  Can anyone track down a digitized copy of this?  I think I'd like to read it:

https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/​dsp01cc08hh28h

[Fark user image image 843x470]

For the record, I'm coming up with nothing on TPB. I would also like a digitized copy if someone can find one.

 1 vote:
What's the law in US constitution that says only an order of congress can direct troops on US soil. It's from late 1800s post US civil war.

 1 vote:

Modguy: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

Waaaayyyy different!

 1 vote:

somedude210: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

It gives me hope. The military was always the wildcard. Though I kinda want to see a fist fight break out between actual soldiers and Barr's little green men

One on one I'd put my money on Barr's little green men. Actual soldiers tend to spend more time making their beds than training hand to hand unless it's their hobby while prison guards beat the shiat out of people all the time.

 1 vote:

TwowheelinTim: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

Wasn't Milley involved with donnie's photo stunt the other night? If so, this seems a little bit hypocritical.

The chair of the joint chiefs advises on NatSec, it's not an operational role.

 1 vote:

ansius: [image.newsvoice.com image 640x380]

I bet Milley didn't like being ambushed into being an extra in trump's ridiculous photo op.

But yes, the way I'm reading this is that this is instructions to his officers to remember to refuse orders that are illegal, unconstitutio