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(Twitter)   The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is publicly laying the groundwork for a mutiny against the office of the "President". I cannot express how groundshaking this letter is in a Fark headline without bringing your mom into the discussion   (twitter.com) divider line
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6930 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jun 2020 at 2:17 AM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-03 10:33:28 PM  
Original Tweet:

 
2020-06-03 10:36:32 PM  
For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over again over years do not interfere in or publicly speak about the political process or chain of command without an incrediblygood reason.  Here, GEN Milley has done both. Overtly.

Mattis's letter was a broadside against the office of the president.  This letter is damn near a nuke.
 
2020-06-03 10:45:13 PM  

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...


You speak true.

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.  You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders.

Now let's see how many individual officers refuse.
 
2020-06-03 10:46:11 PM  
The Pentagon is seriously pissed.  They can't be the bad guys without endangering about a trillion dollars a year in defense spending.
 
2020-06-03 10:47:49 PM  
Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?
 
2020-06-03 10:49:46 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?


No, for about the 4th month in a row, we're in uncharted territory.
 
2020-06-03 10:51:26 PM  
History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.
 
2020-06-03 10:52:24 PM  

revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.


Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military?
 
2020-06-03 10:53:57 PM  
My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.
 
2020-06-03 11:04:32 PM  

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.


The pen is mightier than the sword and cover your ass I think is the idea here.
 
2020-06-03 11:05:10 PM  
Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?
 
2020-06-03 11:05:53 PM  
Now Donnie can give him the nickname Mad Dog Milley.
 
2020-06-03 11:06:24 PM  
I hope this is why the troops in DC seem so calm tonight, they don't have to worry about obeying insane orders.
 
2020-06-03 11:29:43 PM  

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...


I do hope you are righter than right. My Dad was Air Force but he was out before he met my Mom so I don't really have any solid grounding in Military things.
 
2020-06-03 11:30:34 PM  
How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?
 
2020-06-03 11:35:26 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...

You speak true.

I have to wonder how many JAG people he had working on this.  You know he didn't just write this off the cuff, it's too good. As you point out, this lays the groundwork for a UCMJ-compliant refusal to take orders.

Now let's see how many individual officers refuse.


You can include Mattis in this too. He may not be very popular around here but I think he's still popular with the military. Has anyone heard from McMaster lately?

Even Esper wobbling is interesting in this light. When was the last time a Secretary of Defense contradicted the president on the military, in even the smallest way.
 
2020-06-03 11:36:01 PM  
Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.
 
2020-06-03 11:46:13 PM  

ArkPanda: Benevolent Misanthrope: FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it h ...


Yeah, but he got right back on board, so I wouldn't put much stock in him.

This will come down to the decisions of individual officers - and enlisted personnel - on the ground.  If some go with Trump and others with Milley, that's a civil war waiting to happen.
 
2020-06-04 12:00:21 AM  

SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?


Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?
 
2020-06-04 12:03:45 AM  

FightDirector: For anyone who does not recognize the seriousness of that letter, GEN Milley is laying the groundwork to do two things:

1) To protect his own job AND the job of anyone who Trump tries to forcibly relieve of duty.  All that letter officially says is to protect American values: that is also a direct instruction written in "command-ese" to disobey orders from any source - very definitely including POTUS - which run contrary to those values.  The way it is written, the only "reason" to relieve anyone of their position who agrees with that letter is that you plan to take actions contrary to those American values.  QED, if they are relieved of duty by Trump now, it is because he plans to take those contrary actions.

2) Equally as serious, if not more so, Milley is laying the legal and ethical groundwork for a potential mutiny.  Not a coup, necessarily (in fact almost certainly not), but definitely a mutiny against the presidential chain of command.  Particularly and especially with that handwritten addendum.  He is careful to call out and defend both the explicit chain of command and the moral authority from the state governors, and then says in multiple ways that their ultimate duty is to American values and the American people.  NOT orders from the president.  If this goes down the way it is looking, this letter will frame the action as a defense of American values and the American people, against a president who not only doesn't care about either one of those, but is actively working to the detriment of those things.

Finally, the fact that his name is attached to this and it's been released publicly is just gigantic.  Serving military officers don't do that.  They don't release overtly political statements like this, no matter what we might wish Mattis had done years ago.  There's literally hundreds of years of tradition (in an institution where tradition really matters, no matter what cynics might think) and officers have it hammered home over and over and over aga ...


What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.
 
2020-06-04 12:06:10 AM  

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.


I really don't think you understand what this is.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-06-04 12:14:58 AM  
For all the threads that postulate what would happen if Trump loses and refuses to acknowledge that he lost in November through Inaguration in January, this is all the proof that you need that Trump's Presidency would be over.  The military has just been told to adhere to their oath to the Constitution, to the people of the United States.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-06-04 12:16:36 AM  

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.


The way I read it, the soldiers that have orders to escort police will not accept orders to attack peaceful civilians, and might even intervene if cops get out of line.  So yeah, this is kind of a big deal.
 
2020-06-04 12:42:17 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

/and I'm spent
//night night
 
2020-06-04 1:27:04 AM  
https://twitter.com/ChiefNGB/status/1​2​68335177484419073

USAF General Joseph Lengyel  is siding with the protesters.
 
2020-06-04 1:29:11 AM  

ox45tallboy: There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-04 1:35:35 AM  

King Something: ox45tallboy: There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.

[Fark user image 480x360]


Fark user imageView Full Size

"Mein Fuhrer..."

 
2020-06-04 1:54:16 AM  
So...quick question.  Can anyone track down a digitized copy of this?  I think I'd like to read it:

https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog​/​dsp01cc08hh28h

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-04 2:05:49 AM  
The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow.

The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence.

Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified.
 
2020-06-04 2:10:13 AM  
"The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

https://twitter.com/tomperrine/status​/​1267677198615343105
 
2020-06-04 2:12:25 AM  

JustSurfin: "The fate of their democracy is now in the hands of the Generals" is not a sentence I ever expected to write about America. Yet, there it is."

https://twitter.com/tomperrine/status/​1267677198615343105


Because the elected civilian lead ship has turned against the civilians.
 
2020-06-04 2:20:40 AM  
No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.
 
2020-06-04 2:24:45 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?


MacArthur pretty much did.
 
2020-06-04 2:24:46 AM  

cherryl taggart: revrendjim: History is littered with the corpses of tyrants who lost the support of their military. A month ago I would have said that could never happen here.

Question is does he still have the backing of the Russian military?


Hah! Does the Russian military have even enough coal to run their telephones, let alone their carriers?
 
2020-06-04 2:25:34 AM  
Has Trump called him Karen yet?
 
2020-06-04 2:27:14 AM  
This needs to be done. As has been posted in the past, every accusation is a confession. When he claims other people tried to do a coup, that is what he will do. And I think the GOP knows it and that is why they are staying quiet. They know what's coming. Then you have people like Cotton trying to ride the wave up.
 
2020-06-04 2:29:36 AM  

GardenWeasel: Maybe this is the real reason why Barr bought mercs and DOJ  squads to DC.


Good point! That was extremely unusual. The NG getting replaced with prison guards for reasons unknown was baffling. The protestors should've hit them up for drugs, though. That's their side gig.

/ Now THAT would make for a photo.
 
2020-06-04 2:29:46 AM  

maddog2030: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-04 2:32:25 AM  

make me some tea: The Mattis op-ed in The Atlantic was a shot across Trump's bow.

The Milley letter to the heads of all military branch is a declaration of independence.

Wow. I'm at the same time floored, impressed, and terrified.


I'm not terribly surprised. This is the General that every time I saw him at a Trump presser or meeting, looked like he wanted to be anywhere else with every fiber of his being.

His sworn duty to the country kept him there, but I have a feeling this guy hopes he's one of the people that gets to forcibly remove the pasty old coward from the Oval Office when it happens.
 
2020-06-04 2:32:27 AM  

maddog2030: SpockYouOut: How long until the miltary protects peaceful protestors from the police?

Thin Blue Line meets the Green Machine you say?


Admit it, we all want to want to see the Cosplay Cops try to square up against the guys who use tanks and APCs on a regular basis.
 
2020-06-04 2:32:56 AM  
I just wanted to briefly interrupt and tell subby I appreciated the headline. Been a while since one has made me laugh out loud. I'm kinda fond of the "your mom" ones.

/I have a juvenile sense of humor
 
2020-06-04 2:32:57 AM  

ox45tallboy: What;s interesting to me is I don't think any of the Trump loyalists are savvy enough to understand what this is and what it means. There's simply no one to explain what is actually being said here to Trump.


Trump has gotten rid of everyone savvy and capable of understanding.
 
2020-06-04 2:33:46 AM  

Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.


Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.
 
2020-06-04 2:33:53 AM  
Is it article 25 time yet ?
 
2020-06-04 2:33:59 AM  

shastacola: scottydoesntknow: Holy shiat. Has this EVER happened? Have military commanders ever felt the need to send a letter like this basically saying "do not listen to this goddamn moron we have for a president"?

No, for about the 4th month in a row, we're in uncharted territory.


Dammit, Nathan! Stop breaking everything!
 
2020-06-04 2:34:11 AM  

twistedknickers: My goodness! A strongly worded letter!

Like bringing an email to a gunfight, not going to matter when the thugs start killing protesters.


You don't understand, do you? This is a statement that the military command will not obey illegal orders or commit crimes against humanity. It is laying the groundwork for mutiny.
 
2020-06-04 2:34:42 AM  

yukichigai: Rent Party: No it isn't a predicate for mutiny.  It is an effort to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks when you have a POTUS that is clearly out of control and unstable by reminding any troops that might be out there where the loyalty of their oath lies.

It is still a big damn deal, but lets not get all excited about a military coup or some stupid shiat like that.  It ain't happening, nor should it.

Clarification: the military isn't going to stage a coup, but they've now made it clear they're going to uphold the law of the land above all else. that could be where it ends, but if anyone in the administration decides to demand the military perform some blatantly illegal action and, for example, stakes their legitimacy on their orders being followed, the military is clearly not going to take the action that upholds their legitimacy.

In other words, not a coup per se, but they're given a choice by Trump to either follow his orders or remove him from the White House there is now zero ambiguity as to which of those options they'll go for.


Follow his ILLEGAL orders, I should say. They'll still toe the line so long as the orders are legal, which honestly is what you need from the military.
 
2020-06-04 2:35:12 AM  

fragMasterFlash: Has Trump called him Karen yet?


If you were paying attention, you would know that Karen is still escalating her feud with that one white guy alone holding a black lives matter sign in Florida. She's busy at the moment but I'm sure she'll get right on it, seeing how she has almost unlimited time to be a busy body and demand that she be respected about EVERYTHING, ALWAYS!
 
2020-06-04 2:35:14 AM  

gopher321: Maybe this is why Pence has been scarce the past few days? Where is he, exactly?


Hopefully hooked up to a ventilator.
 
2020-06-04 2:35:40 AM  
Approval rating by institution :
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/con​f​idence-institutions.aspx
The military : 73%
Supreme Court : 38%
Congress : 11%
The police : 53% (probably much lower than that today)
The just-us system : 24%

Trump : 42%


I say if the military were to move against Trump tomorrow if he gives illegal orders, they would have the backing of 3/4 of americans.
 
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