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(Ars Technica)   The Internet Archive is possibly about to be sued out of existence   (arstechnica.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Internet Archive, book publishers, Brewster Kahle, James Grimmelmann, Copyright infringement, online library, copies of books, IA's actions  
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8898 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jun 2020 at 9:20 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-06-02 8:41:45 AM  
Everything is being destroyed.

/ Eat the rich -- it'll be all that's left.
 
2020-06-02 8:50:04 AM  
Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.
 
2020-06-02 9:21:48 AM  
Thank you so much Lars Ulrich and DrDre.
Jerk face cucks.
 
2020-06-02 9:22:49 AM  
I hope not. They have the best collection of live music.
 
2020-06-02 9:23:22 AM  
They were stealing other peoples work.
I don't know in what world they thought that they could get away with this.
 
2020-06-02 9:24:05 AM  

waxbeans: Thank you so much Lars Ulrich and DrDre.
Jerk face cucks.


All that matters is they got their pennies!
 
2020-06-02 9:29:02 AM  
You farking assholes. I use the old k-mart reel-to-reel tapes to fall asleep (don't judge me)

Guess I better download all of them.
 
2020-06-02 9:29:23 AM  

enry: Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.


IANAL, so this question is borne out of ignorance, but:  couldn't the publishers have started with a cease and desist instead of jumping straight to lawsuit?
 
2020-06-02 9:29:29 AM  
If you can buy one copy and give copies of it to a million people just by saying you are a library then why not just have folks "give" you copies from wherever and then "lend" a million out...

Pirate Bay Library.
 
2020-06-02 9:29:37 AM  
Then this website will be shut down. But, the data won't be deleted and will just end up on a new website under a new LLC registered in another country.
 
2020-06-02 9:30:56 AM  
Man, we need to update our copyright laws to account for the internet.  It's just an endless clusterfark of hacked together bullshiat left over from when duplication was difficult.

But under the current scheme, yeah, if you give out multiple copies of a thing you only bought once, you're going to have a bad day.
 
2020-06-02 9:31:21 AM  
IA began allowing an unlimited number of people to check out the same book at the same time-even if IA only owned one physical copy.

Well that was farking stupid.
 
2020-06-02 9:33:00 AM  
Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.
 
2020-06-02 9:33:38 AM  
Interesting
 
2020-06-02 9:33:59 AM  

CrazyCurt: Everything is being destroyed.

/ Eat the rich -- it'll be all that's left.


The good news is that you'll soon have new friends. The government has determined that you have extra space, so they're moving in some immigrants.
 
2020-06-02 9:33:59 AM  
If IA wants this to go away fast they need to a) revert to the old lending policy immediately and b) temporarily suspend lending of copyrighted works for a token period (30 days) as an act of contrition.

I'd also suggest a donation to a worthy non-profit but it looks like they are a non-profit.
 
2020-06-02 9:34:26 AM  

xanadian: enry: Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.

IANAL, so this question is borne out of ignorance, but:  couldn't the publishers have started with a cease and desist instead of jumping straight to lawsuit?


I'm pretty sure they did.  Or at least, I remember quite a backlash from a lot of professional writer's groups like SFWA when this thing was first announced in early April, and IA basically told them to pound sand.
 
2020-06-02 9:34:38 AM  
At first I was like, "those sumbiatch lawyers..." Then I read the article and was like, "huh, what was Internet Archive thinking?"
 
2020-06-02 9:34:38 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: They were stealing other peoples work.
I don't know in what world they thought that they could get away with this.


🙄

Wow, Lars Ulrich has a Fark account
 
2020-06-02 9:34:42 AM  

thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.


Have you ever perused Internet Archive? Yes, big loss. Extremely big loss. Check it out, while you can.
 
2020-06-02 9:36:48 AM  
I'd like to see authors get paid, but publishers?  Fark'em.
 
2020-06-02 9:39:03 AM  
I think the description in the article calling Kahle a "holy fool" is exactly right.  He's looking at an extraordinary situation and saying "I'm going to make it better!"

He's right in that he's making things better, but it's simply not legal under our current system, and I'm not even sure it should be under any system.  If you can simply scan a single copy of a book and place it online you're going to hurt publishers, which you might not care about, but they're the ones who pay authors and I do care about them getting a paycheck.
 
2020-06-02 9:39:57 AM  
This is an outrage, how will I be able to browse the Geocities site I made when I was 14?
 
2020-06-02 9:40:49 AM  

thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.


Until the power goes out.
 
2020-06-02 9:41:33 AM  

wejash: If you can buy one copy and give copies of it to a million people just by saying you are a library then why not just have folks "give" you copies from wherever and then "lend" a million out...

Pirate Bay Library.


Sure.
But humans are stupid c.r.a.v.e dummies.
So, sales didn't drop because of piracy. They dropped because the customer base aged out and was tied of buy a CD with only one new song.
There is no reason for a CD to cost 25$. There is no reason for a movie rented online to be 12 to 19$ WTF. The tried consumers killed music not Napster not the pirate Bay.
Which means music was killed by the people in change that stuck it to consumers too many decades in a row.
I bought tapes, CDs, VHS, DVD, bluRay, and on and on. I've owned Metallica in every format.
Today, I refuse to look at and I refuse to buy Media.
 
2020-06-02 9:42:47 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: IA began allowing an unlimited number of people to check out the same book at the same time-even if IA only owned one physical copy.

Well that was farking stupid.


Yep.

If you read TFA, they were lending only as many digital copies as physical books they possessed.  So if they had 10 copies of "The Meg" by Steve Alten, they would lend out up to 10 digital copies.  Once they hit that limit, you had to wait until someone "returned" a copy of it if you wanted to borrow it.

That's analogous to how brick-and-mortar libraries operate, and publishers didn't have a huge problem with it, at least not enough to file a lawsuit.

Once they started lending them out without any regard to how many copies, they stepped over a sharp, very clear line.
 
2020-06-02 9:43:24 AM  

Grumpyoldgeek: I'd like to see authors get paid, but publishers?  Fark'em.


Authors get paid by publishers based, among other things, on number of sales or even things like "X librariers requested your book and are seeing a lot of checkouts", etc.

What the IA did--allowing *infinite* checkouts at once of anything they had, even if they only owned one physical copy--was, in fact, making sure authors did not get paid.
 
2020-06-02 9:43:43 AM  

lycanth: CrazyCurt: Everything is being destroyed.

/ Eat the rich -- it'll be all that's left.

The good news is that you'll soon have new friends. The government has determined that you have extra space, so they're moving in some immigrants.


Yeah, because of climate change. You'd rather just let them die?
 
2020-06-02 9:44:05 AM  

xanadian: enry: Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.

IANAL, so this question is borne out of ignorance, but:  couldn't the publishers have started with a cease and desist instead of jumping straight to lawsuit?


Not if there is money to be made. Welcome to Capitalism.
 
2020-06-02 9:49:39 AM  
FTA:
Four of the nation's leading book publishers have sued the Internet Archive, the online library best known for maintaining the Internet Wayback Machine.

I wonder if this is the real reason for the lawsuit, I'll bet a lot of people would like to see that gone.
 
2020-06-02 9:49:47 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: Then this website will be shut down. But, the data won't be deleted and will just end up on a new website under a new LLC registered in another country.


The important part is, someone will profit.
 
2020-06-02 9:50:07 AM  
I hope they can work this out. As a parent who suddenly had to be home-schooling two children, the Internet Archive was my only way of accessing free digital copies of the books on their curriculum reading list. And I ended up taking out two books, both originally published in the 1970s, that I had been unable to find copies of for years.
 
2020-06-02 9:51:28 AM  

xanadian: enry: Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.

IANAL, so this question is borne out of ignorance, but:  couldn't the publishers have started with a cease and desist instead of jumping straight to lawsuit?


This is the USA, baby!! Drill Drill Drill
 
2020-06-02 9:52:09 AM  

dittybopper: Prank Call of Cthulhu: IA began allowing an unlimited number of people to check out the same book at the same time-even if IA only owned one physical copy.

Well that was farking stupid.

Yep.

If you read TFA, they were lending only as many digital copies as physical books they possessed.  So if they had 10 copies of "The Meg" by Steve Alten, they would lend out up to 10 digital copies.  Once they hit that limit, you had to wait until someone "returned" a copy of it if you wanted to borrow it.

That's analogous to how brick-and-mortar libraries operate, and publishers didn't have a huge problem with it, at least not enough to file a lawsuit.

Once they started lending them out without any regard to how many copies, they stepped over a sharp, very clear line.


How do you "return" a lent out ebook without DRM?
IIRC, they did not have such a system.

/haven't been ages
//they served a function as an archive
///which I think is the issue here
 
2020-06-02 9:54:04 AM  
Yeah, the Internet Archive did something really farking stupid. I've been seeing authors complaining about this for the last couple months on social media. I love books and get most of what I read from the library, but libraries pay for their books. The Internet Archive was guaranteed to get sued over this shiat.
 
2020-06-02 9:59:49 AM  
FTA:  "An institution like AI can buy a single copy of a book and then "lend" it to dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people at the same time. There's little doubt that this has a negative impact on the market for new books."

There was little to no impact, as the vast majority of locations selling physical copies were ordered closed by their respective state government.  Can't sell a book if the store ain't open, and few have distribution facilities like Amazon, who could still deliver during the shutdown.

I prefer to read a physical copy vs an electronic copy.  However, I might preview a book (the first chapter or two) online, and then wait until I can get the physical copy at my local library (which was also closed during the shutdown).

While the publishers are in the right legally, they won't win the "hearts & minds" battle.  They'll be seen as the bad guys trying to protect an outdated and expensive system.  IA will move beyond the reach of US copyright law (China likely has a site ready to go, since they pirate IP from everyone already), so a lawsuit doesn't really help their position.  eBay already allows sellers to sell pirated CDs and DVDs, and there's been little action to stop that (which might work in IA's favor - "Why us and not them?").  Bootlegs of the series "Lost" were on eBay the day after the series finale!

Better for them to slap IA's hand and allow them to resume the old system, rather than force it to move.  That way they still have some control under US law.
 
2020-06-02 10:03:29 AM  
Couldn't IA, I dunno, stop doing what they're doing? Nah.. better to be sued into oblivion I guess. I guess it's a decent hill to die on though.
 
2020-06-02 10:03:40 AM  
The Internet Archive knew what they were doing and decided to pick a fight with goliath.

What will be interesting, is if they can curry favor with the general "Damn The Man" zeitgeist, however this is much much lower on the totem pole than BLM.
 
2020-06-02 10:03:41 AM  

thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.


Yes, if that actually happens it will be a big loss.

What happens if there is some planet-wide disaster that doesn't quite wipe out everyone on the planet, but essentially destroys the capability to get information?

With physical books, you can "jump start" society technology-wise.  The survivors of such a catastrophe won't have to fall back to hunter-gatherer lifestyles.  With high school chemistry and physics books, and a few other such tomes, you can bring back technology very quickly.  The information is there to recreate it.

If it's all online, then we're screwed.

A small subset of this is people who collect digital copies of survival manuals.  Chances are, if you *REALLY* need the information in a survival manual, you're not going to have that available, or not have it available for very long.  My favorite is people who have a pdf of this book:

media-amazon.comView Full Size


That device or devices you have that on are all going to be fried, most likely, and even if you did have them protected, you're probably not going to be able to recharge them.  But a physical book, if not burnt, will be available for use always without any actual technology.

And if your book gets destroyed in a fire, so will your phone or tablet.
 
2020-06-02 10:04:18 AM  
If the plaintiffs try to extract money they are being evil. Stop the lending and say thanks.

Otherwise, they are like Amazon crushing a church food pantry because they take away sales from Whole Foods.
 
2020-06-02 10:09:24 AM  

waxbeans: lycanth: CrazyCurt: Everything is being destroyed.

/ Eat the rich -- it'll be all that's left.

The good news is that you'll soon have new friends. The government has determined that you have extra space, so they're moving in some immigrants.

Yeah, because of climate change. You'd rather just let them die?


Turn your irony filter.
 
2020-06-02 10:11:53 AM  

beezeltown: thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.

Have you ever perused Internet Archive? Yes, big loss. Extremely big loss. Check it out, while you can.


I spend hours  on Archive.org finding live music and audio books.  I haven't bought a printed book or newspaper for decades.  I meant to say

"Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss"  and you misunderstood me.
 
2020-06-02 10:14:37 AM  

enry: Looks like IA done goofed.  Good intentions, bad implementation.


Its unrelated to the wayback machine, it's about their "library"  hopefully some steps up and buys/spins off the wayback machine side.
 
2020-06-02 10:16:51 AM  
"The library would only "lend" as many digital copies of a book as it had physical copies in its warehouse. If all copies of a book were "checked out" by other patrons, you'd have to join a waiting list."

Wait, they had PHYSICAL COPIES OF THE BOOKS and only "lent out" the exact number of copies they had?!

This seems like a slam dunk for courts. IA went out of their way to make a digital model of a centuries-old practice:
"But people.. maybe could have copied them!"
Court: "Same argument applies to physical libraries. Photocopy machines have existed for over fifty years."
"But... these are PERFECT copies!"
Court: "Perfection isn't required in a copy to make it illegal. Still haven't distinguished your argument from prior physical library use."
 
2020-06-02 10:19:50 AM  

cranked: thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.

Until the power goes out.


Solar?  If the sun goes out we got much bigger troubles.
 
2020-06-02 10:20:38 AM  
They're not going to force them out of business, they've just seen an opportunity to get them to stop scanning copyrighted books altogether.
 
2020-06-02 10:26:20 AM  

dittybopper: thesubliminalman: Printed books will follow printed Newspapers out of existence.  No big loss.

Yes, if that actually happens it will be a big loss.

What happens if there is some planet-wide disaster that doesn't quite wipe out everyone on the planet, but essentially destroys the capability to get information?

With physical books, you can "jump start" society technology-wise.  The survivors of such a catastrophe won't have to fall back to hunter-gatherer lifestyles.  With high school chemistry and physics books, and a few other such tomes, you can bring back technology very quickly.  The information is there to recreate it.

If it's all online, then we're screwed.

A small subset of this is people who collect digital copies of survival manuals.  Chances are, if you *REALLY* need the information in a survival manual, you're not going to have that available, or not have it available for very long.  My favorite is people who have a pdf of this book:

[media-amazon.com image 260x329]

That device or devices you have that on are all going to be fried, most likely, and even if you did have them protected, you're probably not going to be able to recharge them.  But a physical book, if not burnt, will be available for use always without any actual technology.

And if your book gets destroyed in a fire, so will your phone or tablet.


Actually miniature solar panels with USB charging are relatively inexpensive, and could keep a device powered for quite some time
 
2020-06-02 10:28:20 AM  
Good a place as any to post this.

I have all of the mtv vhs rips from the IA that were taken down. If anyone would like distributed access, let me know where to contact you.
 
2020-06-02 10:35:21 AM  

Pandymonium: Wait, they had PHYSICAL COPIES OF THE BOOKS and only "lent out" the exact number of copies they had?!


That was the case, until the pandemic. They'd been doing it for at least a couple years, and publishers mostly turned a blind eye. In April, they announced that they were going to eliminate the cap/waitlist system and just let anybody who wanted a digital version get one immediately, no matter how many physical copies they had.
 
2020-06-02 10:36:50 AM  

Pandymonium: "The library would only "lend" as many digital copies of a book as it had physical copies in its warehouse. If all copies of a book were "checked out" by other patrons, you'd have to join a waiting list."

Wait, they had PHYSICAL COPIES OF THE BOOKS and only "lent out" the exact number of copies they had?!

This seems like a slam dunk for courts. IA went out of their way to make a digital model of a centuries-old practice:
"But people.. maybe could have copied them!"
Court: "Same argument applies to physical libraries. Photocopy machines have existed for over fifty years."
"But... these are PERFECT copies!"
Court: "Perfection isn't required in a copy to make it illegal. Still haven't distinguished your argument from prior physical library use."


You missed the point- this is the way the IA worked, past tense.  Libraries do this as well and the publishers are fine with it- they still get paid

Post-COVID IA said "TAKE ALL THE BOOKS!" and removed that restriction.  Do this with music or films and you're going to get sued into oblivion.  Hopefully the IA can avoid the oblivion part
 
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