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(Some Guy)   Linus Torvalds on 80 character width terminal limits. "Your hardware limitations shouldn't be a pain for the rest of us.". Wait, where is the cursing, what have you done with the real Linus Torvalds?   (lkml.org) divider line
    More: Cool, Terminal emulator, Excessive line breaks, 80-column terminal, Xterm, wide monitor, vast majority of people, Linux, Longer lines  
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977 clicks; posted to Geek » on 31 May 2020 at 6:35 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



36 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-05-31 5:59:43 PM  
I always configure my xterms for 132x44.
 
2020-05-31 6:48:41 PM  

TWX: I always configure my xterms for 132x44.


Well duh, that's how wide the printer paper is.

/rolls eyes
 
2020-05-31 7:03:20 PM  
Wait, people actually care about terminal width? I always just set 'em to a big font I can read with my shiatty eyesight and maximize them. End up with something like 120x80.
 
2020-05-31 7:20:38 PM  
I have no idea what any of that was about, or why it couldn't have just been summed up as "this is not a relevant issue given the current tech and user base".
 
wee
2020-05-31 7:24:37 PM  

Electrode: Wait, people actually care about terminal width?


Google had an 80 column restriction in their code standards.  It was supremely annoying to work around. Java is verbose, and I was constantly having to pull things out into a separate function in Python.  Guido said that was a feature and not a bug, but it made things harder to read/understand/debug when you're constantly going back and forth from some block to a single-use function and such.
 
2020-05-31 7:27:29 PM  
I loled at the Raspberry Pi comment. You see people complaining about not being able to run things on the craziest of hardware on forums/comment sections constantly.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-05-31 7:39:08 PM  
Can GVR proclaim the same thing for PEP-8?

"It DoEsN't FiT iN mY tErMiNaL wInDoW"

What farkin' year you livin' in bud, widescreen and HD monitors are basically standard issue now.
 
2020-05-31 7:39:34 PM  
How am I supposed to print out my code for a table-read during the hilighter design review unless it's all 80 characters wide?!?!?
 
2020-05-31 7:39:35 PM  
Sure, what would that guy know.
 
2020-05-31 8:22:03 PM  
I remember when there was different Linux distributions to choose from and now I only need Excel and a browser to surf the web.

Is Linux ever going to triumph over Mac/Windows? I never developed into a programmer and I don't care to Google it.

The penguin is still cute.

/Way "beyond" what's been happening.
 
2020-05-31 8:24:22 PM  

zbtop: I have no idea what any of that was about, or why it couldn't have just been summed up as "this is not a relevant issue given the current tech and user base".


It is relevant because fools whine about it and some of those fools are involved in development.

Trying to insist on or enforce 80 char screen widths is pretty much childish neck-bearding at this point.

/many many hours a week editing code in gvim and at a linux shell
//too many
///I need a new career
////meh on second thoughts its easy and oh god the moneys.
 
2020-05-31 8:56:29 PM  
Thing is, I use 2 80xwhatever windows side by side.  One is the code I'm working with, the other is the header file I'm programming against.  This is with C/C++.

Second, my printer prints 80 columns nicely.  Yeah, I can dork with it and whatever, but that usually means my fonts get smaller and I have trouble reading them (I'm old).

Finally, been doing Java for 7-8 years now.  I really like Java, but damn is it verbose.  Stuff like hand.left.finger.third.fertility.spell​.extend(time limit) are not only common, but typical.  80 columns don't really work with Java, where "hello world" takes 60.

One would think I have a point here.  If one was my high school english teacher one would be giving me an F now.
 
2020-05-31 8:58:45 PM  

gaspode: zbtop: I have no idea what any of that was about, or why it couldn't have just been summed up as "this is not a relevant issue given the current tech and user base".

It is relevant because fools whine about it and some of those fools are involved in development.

Trying to insist on or enforce 80 char screen widths is pretty much childish neck-bearding at this point.


The "best" part is when they try to argue that they absolutely must have three 80-column windows side-by-side.  And when their screen gets larger, then they absolutely must have four 80-column windows side-by-side.  They're probably up to six windows by now.  And they cannot possibly live with, say, five 100-column windows or four 120-column windows.


wee: Electrode: Wait, people actually care about terminal width?

Google had an 80 column restriction in their code standards.  It was supremely annoying to work around. Java is verbose, and I was constantly having to pull things out into a separate function in Python.  Guido said that was a feature and not a bug, but it made things harder to read/understand/debug when you're constantly going back and forth from some block to a single-use function and such.


It's 100 now for Java and Objective-C, and Golang standards are basically "wrap if you think it makes it more readable".  I'm of the opinion that the latter should be the standard across the board, but given the fight we had taking Objective-C to 100, I'm not optimistic that non-Golang languages will go that way.


/ Objective-C has constants that are more than 80 characters long
// We got them to change the Obj-C standard based on two factors: first, Java had already done it
/// Second, half the teams had already decided to ignore the company coding standard
 
2020-05-31 9:09:05 PM  
Real men code at 40x25.
 
2020-05-31 9:15:52 PM  

Snotnose: Thing is, I use 2 80xwhatever windows side by side.  One is the code I'm working with, the other is the header file I'm programming against.  This is with C/C++.

Second, my printer prints 80 columns nicely.  Yeah, I can dork with it and whatever, but that usually means my fonts get smaller and I have trouble reading them (I'm old).

Finally, been doing Java for 7-8 years now.  I really like Java, but damn is it verbose.  Stuff like hand.left.finger.third.fertility.spell​.extend(time limit) are not only common, but typical.  80 columns don't really work with Java, where "hello world" takes 60.

One would think I have a point here.  If one was my high school english teacher one would be giving me an F now.


Rambling about terminal length is it's own end - by the time you're reduced to it you've already forsaken all pride and sense ;)
 
2020-05-31 9:20:18 PM  

Declassify Issue: I remember when there was different Linux distributions to choose from and now I only need Excel and a browser to surf the web.

Is Linux ever going to triumph over Mac/Windows? I never developed into a programmer and I don't care to Google it.

The penguin is still cute.

/Way "beyond" what's been happening.


If it helps I just switched back to Windows on the desktop after a year and a bit of exclusively Linux (Ubuntu, then Mint). My new GPU running 2x 4K60p displays over DP and a 4K60p over HDMI flickered to nausea on the DP screens. Apparently it's a freesync issue but no fixes would correct it. Oddly the displays would report they're running at 60.1Hz which is what I think was causing the actual flickering, but nothing I did corrected it.

I decided if I was going to choose my hardware based on my operating system, then I might as well get a Mac. And the GPU I switched to was an RX 580, AKA quite possibly the most discrete GPU (the chip, rather than the model) available today. So it's not like I was using something out of the ordinary.

Anyway since switching to Windows it has been rock solid, and I'm rediscovering all of the things I missed and worked around, like Windows Mail, which rocks. Thunderbird is balls. As well as being a super clunky interface Thunderbird search sucks.

Will never move to Windows Server, though. All of my issues were GUI ones. On the server, through a terminal, Linux has been awesome.
 
2020-05-31 9:21:12 PM  
most common discrete*
 
2020-05-31 9:41:05 PM  
Man, I just remember how cool it was figuring out how to set my EGA to display 80x43.
 
2020-05-31 9:51:26 PM  
Am I the only one who is generally ambivalent about coding style?  By that I mean formatting such as line breaks, indentation and the like.  I just can't be bothered to get too worked up about it.

Now, if we're talking about design issues like separation of concerns, that's another issue.    I get particularly irked if I see a grab-bag of unrelated utility methods in a "helper" or "utils" class/module/whatever.  Seeing a lot of implementation code in header files or general #include spaghetti was also another bugaboo of mine.
 
2020-05-31 9:54:55 PM  

Declassify Issue: I remember when there was different Linux distributions to choose from and now I only need Excel and a browser to surf the web.

Is Linux ever going to triumph over Mac/Windows? I never developed into a programmer and I don't care to Google it.


For desktops no. For servers, embedded devices, tiny computers it already has on a vast scale.
 
2020-05-31 9:56:03 PM  

FaygoMaster: Am I the only one who is generally ambivalent about coding style?  By that I mean formatting such as line breaks, indentation and the like.  I just can't be bothered to get too worked up about it.


Its a giant issue if you spend a lot of time in old or other people's code. I would guess a badly formatted program takes 50%-100% longer to work on because you have to figure out the structure longhand.
 
2020-05-31 10:07:21 PM  

gaspode: Declassify Issue: I remember when there was different Linux distributions to choose from and now I only need Excel and a browser to surf the web.

Is Linux ever going to triumph over Mac/Windows? I never developed into a programmer and I don't care to Google it.

For desktops no. For servers, embedded devices, tiny computers it already has on a vast scale.


That makes sense. I think I knew that, but I also worked for a company once that used Windows NT
 
2020-05-31 11:07:24 PM  
Next up: 7+ page functions are OK?
 
2020-05-31 11:18:55 PM  
You can really fit so much more code on a screen using proportional fonts
 
2020-05-31 11:54:03 PM  
"When I tile my terminal windows on my display, I can have 6 terminals visible at one time,"


Heh.  My 4K desktop when I was reading that (6 terminals open):

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-06-01 12:09:38 AM  
Amen, Linus, preach!

On the other hand, I had to update the python code of a coworker.  Dude loved his strung-together conditionals, and the longest line of the script was over 800 characters.  Fixed, but man, I was kinda annoyed.  That was hard to read.

Another one thought she was the master of "self-documenting" code.  Wtf... I asked her what the hell she was doing in part of it.  Her answer was, "read the code.  It will tell you."  Well, no shiat, but I'd rather not waste a week figuring out your rat's nest of poor naming and nested dependencies.  I just rewrote it.  Oh, and the debate about how many spaces to use for indenting?  Her answer was 1.  Yes, 1.  Uggh... first thing I did was make a script to change it to 4.  I considered 6 or 8 just to piss her off.
 
2020-06-01 12:16:39 AM  

treesloth: Amen, Linus, preach!

On the other hand, I had to update the python code of a coworker.  Dude loved his strung-together conditionals, and the longest line of the script was over 800 characters.  Fixed, but man, I was kinda annoyed.  That was hard to read.

Another one thought she was the master of "self-documenting" code.  Wtf... I asked her what the hell she was doing in part of it.  Her answer was, "read the code.  It will tell you."  Well, no shiat, but I'd rather not waste a week figuring out your rat's nest of poor naming and nested dependencies.  I just rewrote it.  Oh, and the debate about how many spaces to use for indenting?  Her answer was 1.  Yes, 1.  Uggh... first thing I did was make a script to change it to 4.  I considered 6 or 8 just to piss her off.


What madwoman doesn't use tab with an IDE that just puts in four spaces instead?

I literally read the PSRs the other day for the first time and realised like 90% of my code is to standard because the IDE just nudges me in that direction. And highlight tab indents, highlight space replaces it all with a space, so I ALWAYS use tab.
 
2020-06-01 1:08:46 AM  
Three major things I need to work are a good keyboard, a good set of monitors and a good editor.  If your editor can't change the format of of one style to another, get a better editor.  Three 4K, 40+" monitors are lowest acceptable setup.

Any company who wants code in 80 columns can either find some intern to convert my stuff into 80 columns or find someone else to do their real programming.

The last time I used 80 columns was programming a Z-80 running CP/M using some Televideo terminal.  Or was it a Qume.  No, I think those went up to 132 columns.
 
2020-06-01 2:46:09 AM  

jerryskid: Three 4K, 40+" monitors are lowest acceptable setup.


Lost me here. 40" is just way too big, let alone larger. My neck can only crane so far. Man I'm just trying to picture it and it seems like it would be awful unless you're sitting much further away, at which point you may as well just get something smaller.

Sometimes I find even my dual 4K 32s too big (the third HDMI display I mentioned earlier is a 65" play screen that's off when I'm working).
 
2020-06-01 4:36:28 AM  
jeebus. who the hell isn't using tilda (or yakuake if that's your thing, totally cool I used to be an anti-gnome kde person!) at 100% x 62%, with like 17 brazillion tabs open.
I think that puts me at something like 150x24 with monospace-regular-11 on a 1366x768 screen (look, you can pry my old thinkpads from my cold, dead hands)

what grinds my gears is that some of the ancient tools get pissed if you aren't using 24 rows, and other tools get pissed if you aren't using 25 rows, and I know that isn't so usual these days, but it still turns into A Thing sometimes.
 
2020-06-01 5:01:23 AM  

FaygoMaster: Am I the only one who is generally ambivalent about coding style?  By that I mean formatting such as line breaks, indentation and the like.  I just can't be bothered to get too worked up about it.


I like constent indents, I don't care if they are in spaces or tabs. I care less about line length. I have 2 full hd monitors, if I need stuff compared, and the lines are to long to have two windows on one screen, I can place one on the second screen.

People often say "but X characters is what people can easily read", but I like to counter that with "I only read the beginning of each line until I find the line I need. Having statements taking up fewer lines makes the scanning easier". Not to mention the absolute visual horror all the indent rules and line break rules can produces in verbose languages (looking at you, Java) when you follow all the rules. Readability is too important to constrain yourself to any rigid set of standards.

As someone who primarily works in java, I absolutely loath the Spring JPA derived queries. Putting a query in a 100 character camel-cased string helps no-one. But most of the team says "but that is the framework we use!" which sounds nice, until you remember that the framework also supports readable constructs.
 
2020-06-01 5:11:05 AM  

Declassify Issue: Is Linux ever going to triumph over Mac/Windows? I never developed into a programmer and I don't care to Google it.


At the desktop level, unlikely. However Linux is in everything these days.

A lot of smart devices are running some form of it. You could consider Android (and it's derivatives) to be a form of Linux. Huge swathes of enterprise networking kit runs the Linux kernel or a fork of.

Linux triumphed years ago.  Just not at the desktop consumer level.
 
2020-06-01 9:25:25 AM  
Line length limits are ridiculous.

They are a symptom of choosing to store code as a text rendering. The machine doesn't want text, it breaks the code into a useful AST before doing anything with it. Text diffs of code only catch semantic changes by coincidence.

Store the meaning in your version control, render text with whatever line length and decoration you want!
 
2020-06-01 10:03:02 AM  

wee: Electrode: Wait, people actually care about terminal width?

Google had an 80 column restriction in their code standards.  It was supremely annoying to work around. Java is verbose, and I was constantly having to pull things out into a separate function in Python.  Guido said that was a feature and not a bug, but it made things harder to read/understand/debug when you're constantly going back and forth from some block to a single-use function and such.


I had teachers that insisted that code had to be refactored if your method body is more than 15 lines. They thought design patterns but didn't actually know how to code. "If you break it down in pseudocode, your program is done." Yeah, let me run that through my pseudocode compiler and execute it.

Oh, another favourite: "Everything is an object."
First Java lesson: "Primitive types."
 
2020-06-01 10:58:06 AM  
Like it or not you can only punch 80 rows of holes into the card anyway
 
2020-06-01 2:36:41 PM  

tintar: jeebus. who the hell isn't using tilda (or yakuake if that's your thing, totally cool I used to be an anti-gnome kde person!) at 100% x 62%, with like 17 brazillion tabs open.
I think that puts me at something like 150x24 with monospace-regular-11 on a 1366x768 screen (look, you can pry my old thinkpads from my cold, dead hands)

what grinds my gears is that some of the ancient tools get pissed if you aren't using 24 rows, and other tools get pissed if you aren't using 25 rows, and I know that isn't so usual these days, but it still turns into A Thing sometimes.


23 rows is of course the one and true correct answer.  Cleanse the heretics!
 
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