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(AP News)   U.S. Department of Education rules that transgender girls' participation in high school sports violates Title IX   (apnews.com) divider line
    More: Stupid, United States Department of Education, Civil liberties, Connecticut, United States, High school, American Civil Liberties Union, Law, Civil and political rights  
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490 clicks; posted to Sports » on 29 May 2020 at 5:08 PM (21 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-05-29 4:15:09 PM  
Well, this certainly won't wind up in court...
 
2020-05-29 4:16:10 PM  
I know this is going to upset some folks, but I think they are right on this one.
 
2020-05-29 4:22:13 PM  
One of the plaintiffs, Chelsea Mitchell, won two state indoor title races over Miller this year.

...

"It feels like we are finally headed in the right direction, and that we will be able to get justice for the countless girls along with myself that have faced discrimination for years," [Mitchell] said. "It is liberating to know that my voice, my story, my loss, has been heard; that those championships I lost mean something."


Get a load of Karen-in-training.

Subby here, I've been following this case for over a year. Miller and Yearwood's times were all highly competitive - they won or lost their meets with very narrow margins. This ruling is incredibly disappointing.
 
2020-05-29 4:25:05 PM  
I was wondering why DeVos was so quiet as of late.  She was very busy being concerned about and imagining what is is going on between little girls' legs.
 
2020-05-29 4:31:09 PM  

hubiestubert: Well, this certainly won't wind up in court...


Which is what they want, so the bigots can have their rallying cry in November.
 
2020-05-29 4:46:15 PM  

GardenWeasel: hubiestubert: Well, this certainly won't wind up in court...

Which is what they want, so the bigots can have their rallying cry in November.


One can only hope they're hoisted by their own petards again like with gay marriage
 
2020-05-29 5:05:06 PM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: GardenWeasel: hubiestubert: Well, this certainly won't wind up in court...

Which is what they want, so the bigots can have their rallying cry in November.

One can only hope they're hoisted by their own petards again like with gay marriage


One can hope.  But, at the same time, I can understand the issue of self-identified females born as females with all the female hormones, etc, going up against someone who has *not* transitioned and still has certain male qualities.

I'm guessing that's a small margin, though... or it's just a canard used by bigots.  I really have no idea.  Subby said they've been following this for a year.  Maybe they or someone can school me on the actual statistics/physiology/etc on this subject matter, because I won't lie:  I'm quite ignorant on this subject, though I'll always support someone's right to be who they're supposed to be.
 
2020-05-29 5:07:31 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: One of the plaintiffs, Chelsea Mitchell, won two state indoor title races over Miller this year.


OK, I just read that and had to go back to TFA.

So this is beginning more and more to sound like posturing from someone who couldn't win *all* the titles because of a perceived advantage from a transgender student.  So, hey, let's take it to court!

*eyeroll*
 
2020-05-29 5:19:39 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: One of the plaintiffs, Chelsea Mitchell, won two state indoor title races over Miller this year.

...

"It feels like we are finally headed in the right direction, and that we will be able to get justice for the countless girls along with myself that have faced discrimination for years," [Mitchell] said. "It is liberating to know that my voice, my story, my loss, has been heard; that those championships I lost mean something."

Get a load of Karen-in-training.

Subby here, I've been following this case for over a year. Miller and Yearwood's times were all highly competitive - they won or lost their meets with very narrow margins. This ruling is incredibly disappointing.


Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.
 
2020-05-29 5:26:04 PM  
They can still participate in high school sports though.
 
2020-05-29 5:34:47 PM  

devine: I know this is going to upset some folks, but I think they are right on this one.


It pains me to agree here but I do believe this to be correct. I'm not going to say I understand the finer points of the science involved, but there are physical differences between men and women even when switching (proper term?) has taken place.

Without knowing more, this is one of the few instances where I'll have to go against the American Civil Liberties Union. I don't like it and I don't feel good about it because I don't want transgender kids to deal with even more things than they already do. It isn't a contact sport so I could give some personal leeway but I'm not sure that was on the table here, unless I'm missing some information it seemed to cover all sports in Connecticut.
 
2020-05-29 5:36:01 PM  

Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.


The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...
 
2020-05-29 5:38:04 PM  
This really is a tough one.  If athletes haven't fully transitioned it's reasonable to think they have unfair advantage over the female runners.  After they've transitioned, who knows really?  Good luck to the court that has to sort this out.
 
2020-05-29 5:38:23 PM  

WoodyHayes: unless I'm missing some information it seemed to cover all sports in Connecticut.


All sports in the United States. Title IX is a Federal program and the ruling overturns Connecticut's anti-discrimination policy
 
2020-05-29 5:50:10 PM  

xanadian: Subby said they've been following this for a year.  Maybe they or someone can school me on the actual statistics/physiology/etc on this subject matter, because I won't lie:  I'm quite ignorant on this subject, though I'll always support someone's right to be who they're supposed to be



There are a host of genetic factors that can give an athlete an advantage, such as fast and slow twitch fibers, height. Environmental and economic factors are at play, too, such as access to training facilities.
"A level playing field is a fallacy," says Dr. Myron Genel, Yale professor emeritus of pediatric endocrinology. He is a member of the International Olympic Committee's Medical Commission on issues regarding gender identity in athletics.
"There's so many other factors that may provide a competitive advantage," Genel says. "It's very hard to single out sex as the only one."
There is no proof that cisgender men are inherently more capable than cisgender women. According to an NCAA handbook called "Creating Positive & Inclusive Athletic Environments for Transgender Athletes," the fear that "transgender women will be able to dominate women's sports without effort due to the inherent advantages men have over women" is "a new iteration of the old stereotypes that kept women & girls out of sports prior to Title IX."

From: Bleacher Report
 
2020-05-29 5:53:19 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.

The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...


2017 was Yearwood's freshman year and he won the 100M state title. A 15-year-old beat a bunch of seniors. Track athletes only get faster as they progress through puberty.

Yearwood started letting up at the end of races after the lawsuit was filed to look less dominant.

For perspective, 66 years ago a medical student who only trained an hour a day ran a mile in under four minutes. No woman has *ever* run a sub-4:00 mile.

I see the trans athletes in this lawsuit as cheaters, plain and simple. They can live as they please but if they want to compete in sports they should compete against others born male.
 
2020-05-29 5:53:59 PM  

devine: I know this is going to upset some folks, but I think they are right on this one.


I think in certain cases they would be right, not so much if the person had been on puberty blockers and had been transitioning early enough (which depending on your medical system is either something that happens frequently or doesn't happen at all. )

When you have the physical advantages of being male for years and then transition then I think you have a massive advantage over a cis-gendered women. I dont envy anyone who has to make that call, or draw the line in the sand on who can compete and who cannot.
 
2020-05-29 5:59:24 PM  
MusicMakeMyHeadPound All sports in the United States. Title IX is a Federal program and the ruling overturns Connecticut's anti-discrimination policy

The girls on the other side of this have rights under Title IX too.  That's why this is a little more complicated than it may seem.  I suppose the good news is this sort of thing is likely to be somewhat rare.

The motives of the Dept. of Education and the plaintiff's lawyers are certainly questionable.  Betsy DeVos is, after all, a right wing creep and the Alliance Defending Freedom receives funding from the DeVos family.  I can't stand these people but the kids on the track team have an argument.
 
2020-05-29 6:06:07 PM  

devine: I know this is going to upset some folks, but I think they are right on this one.


The wording used specifically by the Dept. if Education invalidates their argument since they are saying that those claiming to be female are entitled to play.  It does not even take into account intersex children.

That being said, because the Supreme Court had yet to claim equal rights for people based on sexual orientation & gender identity, along with the administration's stance to gut any and all protections from the previous administration based on the idea because the discrimination is not specifically outlawed by a SCOTUS ruling, and the courts being stacked with conservative judges left and right, the DOE ruling is likely to be upheld.
 
2020-05-29 6:06:44 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: WoodyHayes: unless I'm missing some information it seemed to cover all sports in Connecticut.

All sports in the United States. Title IX is a Federal program and the ruling overturns Connecticut's anti-discrimination policy


Durrrrrrr...

Thanks for correcting me, I'm still learning how to tie my own shoes. :(
 
2020-05-29 6:07:59 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: They can still participate in high school sports though.


With all the psychological damage, teasing, harassment, etc. that high school boys are capable of?
 
2020-05-29 6:11:54 PM  

Riothamus: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.

The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...

2017 was Yearwood's freshman year and he won the 100M state title. A 15-year-old beat a bunch of seniors. Track athletes only get faster as they progress through puberty.

Yearwood started letting up at the end of races after the lawsuit was filed to look less dominant.

For perspective, 66 years ago a medical student who only trained an hour a day ran a mile in under four minutes. No woman has *ever* run a sub-4:00 mile.

I see the trans athletes in this lawsuit as cheaters, plain and simple. They can live as they please but if they want to compete in sports they should compete against others born male.


Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?
 
2020-05-29 6:13:47 PM  

harleyquinnical: HotWingConspiracy: They can still participate in high school sports though.

With all the psychological damage, teasing, harassment, etc. that high school boys are capable of?


Implying high school girls aren't capable of the same.
 
2020-05-29 6:16:46 PM  

harleyquinnical: Riothamus: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.

The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...

2017 was Yearwood's freshman year and he won the 100M state title. A 15-year-old beat a bunch of seniors. Track athletes only get faster as they progress through puberty.

Yearwood started letting up at the end of races after the lawsuit was filed to look less dominant.

For perspective, 66 years ago a medical student who only trained an hour a day ran a mile in under four minutes. No woman has *ever* run a sub-4:00 mile.

I see the trans athletes in this lawsuit as cheaters, plain and simple. They can live as they please but if they want to compete in sports they should compete against others born male.

Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?


No. Because they're female.
 
2020-05-29 6:18:04 PM  
While there are difficult conversations to be had about physiology and athletics, it's kinda gross that these threads always turn into "but TITLEZ AND RECORDZ".

I care way, way more about the thousands of lives that these sorts of rulings and approaches endanger than I do about one person who has to come in second instead of first.

This is high school athletics. These are children. Let's care about their health and wellbeing more than we care about platonic ideals of competitive balance.
 
2020-05-29 6:20:55 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: xanadian: Subby said they've been following this for a year.  Maybe they or someone can school me on the actual statistics/physiology/etc on this subject matter, because I won't lie:  I'm quite ignorant on this subject, though I'll always support someone's right to be who they're supposed to be


There are a host of genetic factors that can give an athlete an advantage, such as fast and slow twitch fibers, height. Environmental and economic factors are at play, too, such as access to training facilities.
"A level playing field is a fallacy," says Dr. Myron Genel, Yale professor emeritus of pediatric endocrinology. He is a member of the International Olympic Committee's Medical Commission on issues regarding gender identity in athletics.
"There's so many other factors that may provide a competitive advantage," Genel says. "It's very hard to single out sex as the only one."
There is no proof that cisgender men are inherently more capable than cisgender women. According to an NCAA handbook called "Creating Positive & Inclusive Athletic Environments for Transgender Athletes," the fear that "transgender women will be able to dominate women's sports without effort due to the inherent advantages men have over women" is "a new iteration of the old stereotypes that kept women & girls out of sports prior to Title IX."

From: Bleacher Report


Pffft, what does he know?  Not as much as Joe Rogan, that's what.
 
2020-05-29 6:21:08 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: "There's so many other factors that may provide a competitive advantage," Genel says. "It's very hard to single out sex as the only one."


It's not the only one.

it's just *the main one* out of every athletic competition up to ultrarunning and deep diving.

So if you want a transgender sports division, start one.
 
2020-05-29 6:24:15 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: The girls on the other side of this have rights under Title IX too.  That's why this is a little more complicated than it may seem.  I suppose the good news is this sort of thing is likely to be somewhat rare.


That's the other side ofnthe coin.

What "right" does anyone have to WIN? Title IV is about allowing everyone to compete.

Let them play and take away their ability (or team's ability) to compete in the postseason.
 
2020-05-29 6:26:03 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: They can still participate in high school sports though.


THIS.

The trans athletes don't care about competing. They just want to win and they don't care if they deny scholarship opportunities to deserving girls.
 
2020-05-29 6:26:29 PM  
harleyquinnical:
Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

The simplest comparison to your scenario is Michael Phelps.

This issue is closer to Oscar Pistoreus territory.
 
2020-05-29 6:28:03 PM  

Dafatone: While there are difficult conversations to be had about physiology and athletics, it's kinda gross that these threads always turn into "but TITLEZ AND RECORDZ".

I care way, way more about the thousands of lives that these sorts of rulings and approaches endanger than I do about one person who has to come in second instead of first.

This is high school athletics. These are children. Let's care about their health and wellbeing more than we care about platonic ideals of competitive balance.


The numbers argument favors the biological females by two orders of magnitude, dude.
 
2020-05-29 6:32:26 PM  

puffy999: harleyquinnical:
Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

The simplest comparison to your scenario is Michael Phelps.

This issue is closer to Oscar Pistoreus territory.


I'd say it's closer to Stephen Miller territory.


He jumped, uninvited, into the final stretch of a girls' track meet, apparently intent on proving his athletic supremacy over the opposite sex.
 
2020-05-29 6:34:14 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: xanadian: Subby said they've been following this for a year.  Maybe they or someone can school me on the actual statistics/physiology/etc on this subject matter, because I won't lie:  I'm quite ignorant on this subject, though I'll always support someone's right to be who they're supposed to be


There are a host of genetic factors that can give an athlete an advantage, such as fast and slow twitch fibers, height. Environmental and economic factors are at play, too, such as access to training facilities.
"A level playing field is a fallacy," says Dr. Myron Genel, Yale professor emeritus of pediatric endocrinology. He is a member of the International Olympic Committee's Medical Commission on issues regarding gender identity in athletics.
"There's so many other factors that may provide a competitive advantage," Genel says. "It's very hard to single out sex as the only one."
There is no proof that cisgender men are inherently more capable than cisgender women. According to an NCAA handbook called "Creating Positive & Inclusive Athletic Environments for Transgender Athletes," the fear that "transgender women will be able to dominate women's sports without effort due to the inherent advantages men have over women" is "a new iteration of the old stereotypes that kept women & girls out of sports prior to Title IX."

From: Bleacher Report


I think there is enough evidence in competition results that, at least at a competitive level, men are more physically capable in most respects to women at a similar level (yes many women are more capable than most men, but we are talking the top 1% of women vs the top 1% of men).

Pretty much every athletic competition has men's records significantly above the women's and almost every competition in high level sports has the women soundly beaten by similar level men.

So, yes, this does pose a conundrum for competitive fairness. And it works both ways with both trans men and trans women potentially getting frozen out.
 
2020-05-29 6:34:37 PM  
puffy999 .What "right" does anyone have to WIN? Title IV is about allowing everyone to compete.

That's not the argument they're making.  Title IX is supposed to guarantee a level playing field.  Women are supposed to have the same opportunities to compete in athletics as their male counterparts.  The complaint here is that they're being told to compete against runners who are not actually female.  Or at least not yet female.

It's reasonable to think they may be at an unfair disadvantage when they're running against people who are still essentially male.
 
2020-05-29 6:39:26 PM  

Riothamus: puffy999: harleyquinnical:
Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

The simplest comparison to your scenario is Michael Phelps.

This issue is closer to Oscar Pistoreus territory.

I'd say it's closer to Stephen Miller territory.


He jumped, uninvited, into the final stretch of a girls' track meet, apparently intent on proving his athletic supremacy over the opposite sex.


God I just wish this timeline were my hallucinations...
 
2020-05-29 6:41:32 PM  
Reading more on this, the two transgender girls are aspiring to run in the Olympics.  Don't know what the rules are there, but it seems like this story has just begun.
 
2020-05-29 6:42:00 PM  

Riothamus: No. Because they're female.


I'm curios, where is the line for you?  If a transgender woman was taking estrogen and had the twig and berries removed, would you still consider her a man?
 
2020-05-29 6:42:23 PM  
Riothamus He jumped, uninvited, into the final stretch of a girls' track meet, apparently intent on proving his athletic supremacy over the opposite sex.

I wouldn't call that a fair comparison.  Miller pulled that stunt because, even then, he enjoyed being an irredeemable asshole.  The two runners here want to compete and feel like they're accepted members of society.

That they are raising really difficult questions about what's fair in public school athletics.  Miller just likes being a troll.  And seeing children die along the border.
 
2020-05-29 6:45:00 PM  

Riothamus: harleyquinnical: Riothamus: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.

The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...

2017 was Yearwood's freshman year and he won the 100M state title. A 15-year-old beat a bunch of seniors. Track athletes only get faster as they progress through puberty.

Yearwood started letting up at the end of races after the lawsuit was filed to look less dominant.

For perspective, 66 years ago a medical student who only trained an hour a day ran a mile in under four minutes. No woman has *ever* run a sub-4:00 mile.

I see the trans athletes in this lawsuit as cheaters, plain and simple. They can live as they please but if they want to compete in sports they should compete against others born male.

Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

No. Because they're female.


So your argument is that competitive advantage hormones provide, such hormones occur naturally in some cis girls at higher levels than other cis girls, trans girls being only different in terms of physical appearance, ignoring possible advantages intersex people may have for similar hormone levels as cis boys while having the physical definition of a girl, permitting intersex girls to compete as long as they appear and identify as female, and therefore it is fine to disallow trans girls but not intersex girls?

Such an argument is invalid and uncogent.
 
2020-05-29 6:45:10 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: puffy999 .What "right" does anyone have to WIN? Title IV is about allowing everyone to compete.

That's not the argument they're making.  Title IX is supposed to guarantee a level playing field.  Women are supposed to have the same opportunities to compete in athletics as their male counterparts.  The complaint here is that they're being told to compete against runners who are not actually female.  Or at least not yet female.

It's reasonable to think they may be at an unfair disadvantage when they're running against people who are still essentially male.


My response to that then is Title IX is inherently broken if the focus is now on end results, not access.

One outlier (what are we at, two or three girls have made the national news for this issue in the last 15 years?) does not destroy a level playing field for women/girls participating in sports. It doesn't even cause negligible harm to individuals looking for scholarship access (yet).

If THAT is the argument? Let the transgender athletes participate full scale.
 
2020-05-29 6:45:21 PM  

Flappyhead: Riothamus: No. Because they're female.

I'm curios, where is the line for you?  If a transgender woman was taking estrogen and had the twig and berries removed, would you still consider her a man?


I draw the line at what gametes the person produces or will produce after puberty. Sperm=male, eggs=female. It's nice and simple.As far as your example goes, I'd consider that person to be a eunuch on estrogen.
 
2020-05-29 6:48:05 PM  

harleyquinnical: Riothamus: harleyquinnical: Riothamus: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Riothamus: Their margins of victory started dropping right after the lawsuit was filed.

They sandbagged to angle for a favorable ruling. The court did the right thing.

The lawsuit was filed in 2019 and the times I'm referring to are from 2017-18.

So dang that Obama, just irresponsibly leaving his time machine around for high schoolers to find it...

2017 was Yearwood's freshman year and he won the 100M state title. A 15-year-old beat a bunch of seniors. Track athletes only get faster as they progress through puberty.

Yearwood started letting up at the end of races after the lawsuit was filed to look less dominant.

For perspective, 66 years ago a medical student who only trained an hour a day ran a mile in under four minutes. No woman has *ever* run a sub-4:00 mile.

I see the trans athletes in this lawsuit as cheaters, plain and simple. They can live as they please but if they want to compete in sports they should compete against others born male.

Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

No. Because they're female.

So your argument is that competitive advantage hormones provide, such hormones occur naturally in some cis girls at higher levels than other cis girls, trans girls being only different in terms of physical appearance, ignoring possible advantages intersex people may have for similar hormone levels as cis boys while having the physical definition of a girl, permitting intersex girls to compete as long as they appear and identify as female, and therefore it is fine to disallow trans girls but not intersex girls?

Such an argument is invalid and uncogent.


Figure out which gametes the intersex people produce and stick them in the appropriate division. If they don't produce gametes then check and see if they have ovaries. If they have ovaries they can compete against the girls.

My stance is logical and valid. It does not rely on anyone's self-identification.
 
2020-05-29 6:49:52 PM  

Riothamus: Flappyhead: Riothamus: No. Because they're female.

I'm curios, where is the line for you?  If a transgender woman was taking estrogen and had the twig and berries removed, would you still consider her a man?

I draw the line at what gametes the person produces or will produce after puberty. Sperm=male, eggs=female. It's nice and simple.As far as your example goes, I'd consider that person to be a eunuch on estrogen.


Ok then, I think we've identified the underlying issue here.
 
2020-05-29 6:50:10 PM  

Riothamus: puffy999: harleyquinnical:
Please let me ask this then: do you agree that female runners that have a naturally higher amount of testosterone (for whatever reason not having to do with being intersex) should be forced to compete with men because of their dominance?

The simplest comparison to your scenario is Michael Phelps.

This issue is closer to Oscar Pistoreus territory.

I'd say it's closer to Stephen Miller territory.


He jumped, uninvited, into the final stretch of a girls' track meet, apparently intent on proving his athletic supremacy over the opposite sex.


No, I was thinking Caster Semenya territory.
 
2020-05-29 6:50:21 PM  
The difference is testosterone.  Testosterone confers an unfair advantage in building muscle mass, thus girls and boys are separated in sports.  What gender you identify as does not negate that advantage.

I don't know what the right solution is but allowing people who identify as girls, who were able to develop muscle mass with the benefit of testosterone, to compete against girls who were NOT able to develop muscle mass with the benefit of testosterone is the right solution.
 
2020-05-29 6:51:23 PM  

Flappyhead: Riothamus: Flappyhead: Riothamus: No. Because they're female.

I'm curios, where is the line for you?  If a transgender woman was taking estrogen and had the twig and berries removed, would you still consider her a man?

I draw the line at what gametes the person produces or will produce after puberty. Sperm=male, eggs=female. It's nice and simple.As far as your example goes, I'd consider that person to be a eunuch on estrogen.

Ok then, I think we've identified the underlying issue here.


Basic biology?
 
2020-05-29 6:51:32 PM  

harleyquinnical: So your argument is that competitive advantage hormones provide, such hormones occur naturally in some cis girls at higher levels than other cis girls, trans girls being only different in terms of physical appearance, ignoring possible advantages intersex people may have for similar hormone levels as cis boys while having the physical definition of a girl, permitting intersex girls to compete as long as they appear and identify as female, and therefore it is fine to disallow trans girls but not intersex girls


I think you'd find a large percentage of people who, on the face of it, generally aren't fans of hormone therapies and athletic competition, regardless of the *why*.
 
2020-05-29 6:52:05 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: harleyquinnical: HotWingConspiracy: They can still participate in high school sports though.

With all the psychological damage, teasing, harassment, etc. that high school boys are capable of?

Implying high school girls aren't capable of the same.


YMMV from high school to high school.
 
2020-05-29 6:54:28 PM  

lennavan: The difference is testosterone.  Testosterone confers an unfair advantage in building muscle mass, thus girls and boys are separated in sports.  What gender you identify as does not negate that advantage.

I don't know what the right solution is but allowing people who identify as girls, who were able to develop muscle mass with the benefit of testosterone, to compete against girls who were NOT able to develop muscle mass with the benefit of testosterone is the right solution.


The real litmus test is what kind of pushback male transgender athletes get.  I have a sneaky suspicion it would be less about athletic talent and more about gay panic.
 
2020-05-29 6:58:27 PM  

harleyquinnical: No, I was thinking Caster Semenya territory


Good point, I was focused on the thread not that comment.

As far as she's concerned, isn't it just rumor anymore? Basically suspicious due to appearance? Seems that the powers that be are comfortable letting her compete.
 
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