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(Aviation Herald)   That Pakistani airliner that crashed appears to have made contact with the runway on the first landing attempt because the landing gear was never deployed. (PICS, Video)   (avherald.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Landing, Undercarriage, Pakistan International Airlines, May 22nd, result of a gear, runway 25L, Landing Gear, final approach  
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4567 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 May 2020 at 6:31 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-05-25 6:43:41 AM  
You forgot the coffee!
 
2020-05-25 6:47:49 AM  
Good luck, we're all counting on you.
 
2020-05-25 6:51:32 AM  
So was the landing gear guy laid off?
 
2020-05-25 6:57:19 AM  
Nice flying Lou.
 
2020-05-25 7:00:50 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-05-25 7:11:09 AM  
Wow, 2 people survived? That's pretty rare. Haven't heard anything like that since that feller survived that train wreck outside of Philly
 
2020-05-25 7:14:45 AM  
Bet the pilot doesn't make that mistake ever again. Lol
 
2020-05-25 7:29:20 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-05-25 7:38:40 AM  
Why does the plane keep saying "too low, gear" over and over again?
 
2020-05-25 8:00:40 AM  
Well shoot, guess I'll have to cancel my Summer vacation in Pakistan.
 
2020-05-25 8:07:19 AM  
WTF?

"On May 24th 2020 a spokesman of the airline said, the landing gear had not been (partially or fully) lowered prior to the first touch down. The crew did not call out the standard operating procedures for an anomaly and no emergency was declared. Most likely the crew was not mentally prepared for a belly landing and went around when they realized the engines were scraping the runway."

It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear.  Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason.  How the hell do you miss that rather big check?  Any commercial pilots, here?

Disclosure: I only have experience with small planes and am not a pilot, mainly because of a medical condition.  I'm more an airplane groupie that hangs around with pilots.
 
2020-05-25 8:12:23 AM  
CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up.  He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-05-25 8:40:22 AM  

Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up. He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.


I have a very, very hard time believing that.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-05-25 8:42:25 AM  

EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear. Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason. How the hell do you miss that rather big check?


And it should be worse, since it sounds like this model of aircraft is supposed to have a system that starts squawking when the aircraft is too low without the landing gear deployed.
 
2020-05-25 8:44:51 AM  

TWX: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up. He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

I have a very, very hard time believing that.


...And that the onboard documentation didn't have any details on the gear gravity release mechanism, nor was the pilot aware of a pretty important emergency procedure.
 
2020-05-25 8:49:09 AM  
Still makes no sense. If you can fly it off the ground with no wheels, you can land it. Mental breakdown?
 
2020-05-25 8:49:29 AM  

TWX: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up. He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

I have a very, very hard time believing that.


I know what you mean, TWX.  I worked in that same division.  It seems unbelievable, but it did happen.  We were shaking our heads in disbelief, and again, my friend just shrugged.  The plane model may have been mentioned to the person who took the original call, but that info may have been filtered out in the urgency of the moment.
 
2020-05-25 8:50:53 AM  

TWX: EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear. Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason. How the hell do you miss that rather big check?

And it should be worse, since it sounds like this model of aircraft is supposed to have a system that starts squawking when the aircraft is too low without the landing gear deployed.


I've read some other links on this story, and have listened to recordings of the pilot talking to the tower with the "no gear" alarm dinging in the backround.

About the 4:30 mark

Pakistan International Airlines Crash of Flight 8303 22 May 2020
Youtube AwfkN5M-bSY
 
2020-05-25 8:59:19 AM  

Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up.  He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.


Aren't there flight crew checklists and training for that eventuality?
 
2020-05-25 9:00:06 AM  

Farkin Charlie: Wow, 2 people survived? That's pretty rare. Haven't heard anything like that since that feller survived that train wreck outside of Philly


Sounds like those two people are unbreakable.
 
2020-05-25 9:16:14 AM  

EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear.  Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason.  How the hell do you miss that rather big check?  Any commercial pilots, here?


Not a commercial pilot, but I'll give a stab.  The cause is usually getting into a routine.  If you are used to always lowering the gear at spot X and something happens to distract you right at that moment then you'll skip that step and continue on.

Compounding that is a general human tendency to defer to the person in command and a hesitancy to question them as well as the person in command's tendency to yell at a subordinate for "distracting" him/her with questions.  I have flown with someone like that.  He wound up literally in my face screaming for questioning him.  And yes, he was wrong in that instance.

The last thing is training methods.  Memorization is an important part of training in just about anything.  But it is isn't the only thing.  With the foreign (non USA) pilots I see locally there is a high percentage who are pretty good a rote replaying at what they read on a flash card but don't understand what it actually means.  And when anything out of the ordinary occurs they tend to try and force the situation back into what they expect to happen rather than deal with what is actually happening.
 
2020-05-25 9:23:55 AM  

ukexpat: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up.  He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

Aren't there flight crew checklists and training for that eventuality?


There are very few aircraft out there where you could access the gear physically. So you have backup hydraulics, gravity unlocking, gear blow down systems, etc.

Say you want to impress your SO on the next flight. If you happen to see a small black triangle on the wall in the area over the wings, ask what that is. Then you can explain how that marks the location of plexiglass viewing ports in the floor for pilots to verify gear is down and locked. If you pulled up the carpet by the aisle, you'd see it.

Disclaimer: pulling up the carpet will probably get you funny looks from the FAs and maybe a trip off the airplane.

I have, in fact, used that procedure one time while flying a 737. Gear issues occurred and the Captain sent me back to take a look. It's strange enough when a pilot emerges from the cockpit mid-flight with flashlight in hand to stroll down the aisle and stranger still when said pilot, perhaps exceptionally handsome and debonair, stops by your seat and gets down on his knees. "Excuse me ma'am, I just need to move your carry-on a bit and would you mind sliding your feet to the side a little? Thanks."

*sound of Velcro ripping and being put back down*

"Thanks, appreciate it. Here's your purse."

It all went fine but you already knew that because you never read about it on Fark before now.
 
2020-05-25 9:26:46 AM  

ChiliBoots: TWX: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up. He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

I have a very, very hard time believing that.

...And that the onboard documentation didn't have any details on the gear gravity release mechanism, nor was the pilot aware of a pretty important emergency procedure.


Here is the gear gravity release procedure on an A320, starting right at the failure moment.  Rather nice; you don't even have to get up... just unfold this big-ass handle and crank it.  No idea what it's like in other Airbus models though.

CPL students in A320: landing gear failure - Baltic Aviation Academy
Youtube 3CYkmY6d3UM


/i know somebody is going to xkcdify big-ass handle.
 
2020-05-25 9:30:04 AM  

nobody11155: there is a high percentage who are pretty good a rote replaying at what they read on a flash card but don't understand what it actually means


This part is true of many things, I think.  An example would be the realm of database administrators (or any tech with similar complexity).  I've been working with that technology for 30 years or so, and have taught classes on relational database internals.  Some DBAs only really know the surface level, and only have a few tools with dealing with problems.  They haven't internalized the inner parts, so they can't properly analyze the issue and come up with a solution.
 
2020-05-25 9:48:56 AM  

TWX: EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear. Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason. How the hell do you miss that rather big check?

And it should be worse, since it sounds like this model of aircraft is supposed to have a system that starts squawking when the aircraft is too low without the landing gear deployed.


Maybe that's the technical failure. Computer says it's deployed but it actually isn't. Since plane thinks it is deployed, no warnings.
 
2020-05-25 9:59:45 AM  

ukexpat: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up.  He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

Aren't there flight crew checklists and training for that eventuality?


Well, there's also training and checklists to prevent planes from landing wheels up, but here we are ...
 
2020-05-25 10:00:47 AM  
As someone who up until recently did quite a bit of travel all over the globe, this does jive 1000% with everything else I've heard and read about PIA.  That whole airline has long been a trainwreck in the figurative sense with the occasional planewreck in the literal.
 
2020-05-25 10:17:44 AM  
I'll be interested in a what the black boxes say when the transcripts are released down the road.
 
2020-05-25 10:21:38 AM  

MIRV888: Nice flying Lou.


Lou did manage to scrape the runway with the engines, and get airborne again anyway.

That reminds me of stunts I have done in computer games. You know, where stuff like that is not something the programmers thought someone would do.

Nice bonus with peeling the roofs of houses.
 
2020-05-25 10:27:11 AM  

iron_city_ap: Why does the plane keep saying "too low, gear" over and over again?


Because the plane thinks the pilot is trying to land, and warns about the gear.

It could also have gone with, "it looks like you're trying to land on the engines. Do you need help with that?"

Bit longer.

Dunno why a pilot would not just do a fly-around when the computer is screaming at them.
 
2020-05-25 10:41:07 AM  
Someone wanted belly rub
 
2020-05-25 10:51:55 AM  
It will probably end up being blamed on crew being out of practice after a few months covid-19 lay off.  I know the plane had just started flying for the first time in a few months.
 
2020-05-25 10:54:54 AM  

otherideas: TWX: EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear. Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason. How the hell do you miss that rather big check?

And it should be worse, since it sounds like this model of aircraft is supposed to have a system that starts squawking when the aircraft is too low without the landing gear deployed.

Maybe that's the technical failure. Computer says it's deployed but it actually isn't. Since plane thinks it is deployed, no warnings.


There's tapes from the pilots communicating. And you can hear the warning sound in the background.
 
2020-05-25 11:01:54 AM  
Has anyone blamed Boeing yet?
 
2020-05-25 11:11:39 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-05-25 11:14:12 AM  

caljar: It will probably end up being blamed on crew being out of practice after a few months covid-19 lay off.  I know the plane had just started flying for the first time in a few months.


If there was a technical fault with the landing gear, we don't know, they still landed despite warnings from the plane, scraped 2000feet of the runway with the engines.

And took of again.

The plane is beeping and saying in clear English that the gear is not extended, at all.

Oh well, it's bad form to blame dead people.

Maybe others is to blame as well. But to me, OK, wtf.? Do you need a lot of training to ignore alarms?
 
2020-05-25 11:20:13 AM  
So it seems to me there were a couple of things that led to this tragedy:

1.  Bad approach that should have been aborted, they wound up touching down halfway down the runway
2.  Forgot the gear so they "touched down" on their damn engines
3.  Then they tried a go-around anyway when they should have, at that point, let the thing slide to a halt and crossed their fingers.
4.  While their "go around" worked the engines were wrecked so badly that they probably tore themselves apart shortly after.

Poor CRM, pilot error, tragedy.
 
2020-05-25 11:23:33 AM  

EbonyCat: Disclosure: I only have experience with small planes and am not a pilot, mainly because of a medical condition. I'm more an airplane groupie that hangs around with pilots.


Homer becomes pilot - The Simpsons
Youtube nLGzojday4o
 
2020-05-25 11:25:34 AM  
Pakistan International Airlines #8303 Runway Evidence- Update #3 24 May 2020
Youtube OZ0LY7ma1cA
This guy is a good source of non- hysterical analysis.  He includes video showing 3 sets of scrape marks on the runway.
 
2020-05-25 11:32:23 AM  

SoberCannibal: [YouTube video: Pakistan International Airlines #8303 Runway Evidence- Update #3 24 May 2020]This guy is a good source of non- hysterical analysis.  He includes video showing 3 sets of scrape marks on the runway.


Another observation by blancolerio, the pilot/analyst in the above video:  the  GE engines in the accident plane, and many others as well, have a  shaft drive power take off that runs the oil pumps, generators and other accessories in a mounting at the bottom of the engine.  Drag the engine on the runway and you will destroy it and your engine will quit.
 
2020-05-25 12:26:12 PM  

TWX: EbonyCat: It looks like they literally forgot to lower the landing gear. Pilots go through checklists for this exact reason. How the hell do you miss that rather big check?

And it should be worse, since it sounds like this model of aircraft is supposed to have a system that starts squawking when the aircraft is too low without the landing gear deployed.


I'm going to point out the obvious and say this was a PIA flight, and it's hard to notice that alarm when the cockpit is full of hookah smoke and the copilot keeps shooting his f*cking AK-47 out the window.
 
2020-05-25 12:37:08 PM  

edmo: ukexpat: Miss Stein: CSB - a friend of mine was a mechanical engineer at Boeing Field Service, and one day took an emergency call.  A plane on approach at an airport could not deploy its landing gear, so he talked a member of the flight crew through climbing down inside the plane and manually deploying the landing gear.

After the plane landed safely, he was informed it was an Airbus plane, not Boeing.  Somehow the subject of the plane model never came up.  He shrugged and said it was all in a day's work.

Aren't there flight crew checklists and training for that eventuality?

There are very few aircraft out there where you could access the gear physically. So you have backup hydraulics, gravity unlocking, gear blow down systems, etc.

Say you want to impress your SO on the next flight. If you happen to see a small black triangle on the wall in the area over the wings, ask what that is. Then you can explain how that marks the location of plexiglass viewing ports in the floor for pilots to verify gear is down and locked. If you pulled up the carpet by the aisle, you'd see it.

Disclaimer: pulling up the carpet will probably get you funny looks from the FAs and maybe a trip off the airplane.

I have, in fact, used that procedure one time while flying a 737. Gear issues occurred and the Captain sent me back to take a look. It's strange enough when a pilot emerges from the cockpit mid-flight with flashlight in hand to stroll down the aisle and stranger still when said pilot, perhaps exceptionally handsome and debonair, stops by your seat and gets down on his knees. "Excuse me ma'am, I just need to move your carry-on a bit and would you mind sliding your feet to the side a little? Thanks."

*sound of Velcro ripping and being put back down*

"Thanks, appreciate it. Here's your purse."

It all went fine but you already knew that because you never read about it on Fark before now.


You need additional training. I'm pretty sure the manual indicates that the correct statement to make during this procedure is:

"Excuse me ma'am, I just need to move your carry-on a bit and would you mind spreading your feet to the sides a little? Thanks."

NOT

"Excuse me ma'am, I just need to move your carry-on a bit and would you mind sliding your feet to the side a little? Thanks."

It's just a little different but saying it wrong has serious negative effects.

It's usually the more senior pilots with the god complexes that adlib a little with established procedures. Sorta like pilots who put the gear down when THEY know it's the right time. They get used to hearing those warning bongs about no gear down because they hear it on every approach.
 
2020-05-25 12:42:09 PM  

Ketchuponsteak: caljar: It will probably end up being blamed on crew being out of practice after a few months covid-19 lay off.  I know the plane had just started flying for the first time in a few months.

If there was a technical fault with the landing gear, we don't know, they still landed despite warnings from the plane, scraped 2000feet of the runway with the engines.

And took of again.

The plane is beeping and saying in clear English that the gear is not extended, at all.

Oh well, it's bad form to blame dead people.

Maybe others is to blame as well. But to me, OK, wtf.? Do you need a lot of training to ignore alarms?


If we need others to blame, blame those that had the warnings in clear English instead of doing the needful and please to be making them in the Queen's English, thank you very much. Come again.
 
2020-05-25 1:00:09 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-05-25 1:15:49 PM  
SoberCannibal:

Another observation by blancolerio, the pilot/analyst in the above video:  the  GE engines in the accident plane, and many others as well, have a  shaft drive power take off that runs the oil pumps, generators and other accessories in a mounting at the bottom of the engine.  Drag the engine on the runway and you will destroy it and your engine will quit.

The description of the touchdown (the intentional one) makes it seem like they hit at about 200 KTAS. That works out to over 300 feet per second, and they had over 2000 feet of skidmarks on the runway. So we're looking at 7 seconds of contact before they return to being airborne.
I'm not a pilot myself, but my thoughts are, the damage is already done, nobody is seriously hurt yet, and returning to the air would just add energy to the equation. Count your blessings and prepare for a career change.
 
2020-05-25 1:55:11 PM  

rolladuck: SoberCannibal:

Another observation by blancolerio, the pilot/analyst in the above video:  the  GE engines in the accident plane, and many others as well, have a  shaft drive power take off that runs the oil pumps, generators and other accessories in a mounting at the bottom of the engine.  Drag the engine on the runway and you will destroy it and your engine will quit.

The description of the touchdown (the intentional one) makes it seem like they hit at about 200 KTAS. That works out to over 300 feet per second, and they had over 2000 feet of skidmarks on the runway. So we're looking at 7 seconds of contact before they return to being airborne.
I'm not a pilot myself, but my thoughts are, the damage is already done, nobody is seriously hurt yet, and returning to the air would just add energy to the equation. Count your blessings and prepare for a career change.


If they had not taken off, they perhaps could have blamed the landing gear.

I am sad they're dead, especially since there is video and pictures of the second approach, showing the landing gear working fine.

Wow to being a passenger on that hellish flight.
 
2020-05-25 3:46:27 PM  
You know, when the first landing attempt scrapes the engines on the runway you probably should just complete the belly landing.  And if your gear does not deploy maybe contact the tower for emergency.

It looks like the quality of Pakistani pilots is on par with H1B IT "professionals".
 
2020-05-25 3:53:58 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: Ketchuponsteak: caljar: It will probably end up being blamed on crew being out of practice after a few months covid-19 lay off.  I know the plane had just started flying for the first time in a few months.

If there was a technical fault with the landing gear, we don't know, they still landed despite warnings from the plane, scraped 2000feet of the runway with the engines.

And took of again.

The plane is beeping and saying in clear English that the gear is not extended, at all.

Oh well, it's bad form to blame dead people.

Maybe others is to blame as well. But to me, OK, wtf.? Do you need a lot of training to ignore alarms?

If we need others to blame, blame those that had the warnings in clear English instead of doing the needful and please to be making them in the Queen's English, thank you very much. Come again.


My experience being in IT for a long time is they were probably deflecting blame as the engines were scraping the runway instead of focusing on fixing the problem.
 
2020-05-25 4:38:11 PM  
It's not the first time the airline has had a gear-up landing.

Fark user imageView Full Size


https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.ht​m

This was in 1986, at the Islamabad airport. I think I remember reading somewhere that the alarm had been turned off somehow. I'd imagine that a plane built decades later would have safeguards to prevent that, but history does tend to repeat itself.

Had the PK-8303 pilot been flying something heavier than an A320, perhaps he wouldn't have considered a go-around once he realized what was happening.
 
2020-05-25 4:55:30 PM  
Per the video that ScanMan61 posted, it sounds like they tried to deploy the gear but it did not deploy. But how did they miss the alarm pinging in the background?  Seems like that would be tough to ignore. Not impossible, but tough. Also, I'm not a pilot but I'm guessing they make those alarms distinctive so they can't be confused.
 
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