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(Vox)   Hong Kong is lost   (vox.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Hong Kong, Hong Kong's freedoms, China, national security law, Beijing's authority, part of China, People's Republic of China, mainland China  
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4014 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 May 2020 at 4:49 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-05-21 8:48:22 PM  
It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.
 
2020-05-21 9:47:25 PM  
It's not lost, it's behind the bamboo curtain.
 
2020-05-21 9:48:01 PM  
To whom?
 
2020-05-21 9:48:33 PM  

Sin'sHero: It's not lost, it's behind the bamboo curtain.


Oh. Are we creating another Cold War to make America great again? It won't work this time.
 
2020-05-21 10:14:25 PM  
China can still get farked.
 
2020-05-21 10:19:57 PM  

blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.


Was that the day they started selling opium in China, or the day they stopped?
 
2020-05-21 11:46:58 PM  

blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.


They were only required to give back the New Territories. They had been granted the rest in perpetuity.

Granted, splitting the territory in half would have been near impossible, but still...

Someone should have specified some fine print that "50 years of self rule" means you can't install puppets who self rule the way you want.
 
2020-05-22 2:21:28 AM  
has used the pandemic to further crackdown on the pro-democracy movement

Never let a massive pandemic go to waste.
 
2020-05-22 4:44:46 AM  

ImpendingCynic: blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.

They were only required to give back the New Territories. They had been granted the rest in perpetuity.

Granted, splitting the territory in half would have been near impossible, but still...

Someone should have specified some fine print that "50 years of self rule" means you can't install puppets who self rule the way you want.


What you say is all true.
You also understand my point.  The British were out one way or another. They say they got the best deal they  they could.
Personally, I think they didn't really try hard enough. As you pointed out, there are gaping holes in all the places that really matter.

I'm glad I'm not a Hongkonger because those boys are right and truly forked and are in for some very rude not so surprising surprises.
They will feel the full weight of the yoke.
 
2020-05-22 4:58:30 AM  
The UK should demand it back.

ImpendingCynic: Someone should have specified some fine print that "50 years of self rule" means you can't install puppets who self rule the way you want.


They've done that for 23 years. Now they're not even bothering with it.
 
2020-05-22 5:00:11 AM  
Sad, but expected.  This is the perfect time for China to annex territory.  The U.S. has given up its leadership role. There is a good possibility that Trump loses in November, so that could change.
They will probably make a move on Taiwan this summer. I would expect to see large amounts of  money funneled to pro Chinese politicians.
 
2020-05-22 5:00:32 AM  

blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.


Dotted line, I think you mean :)

And yes, this is what happens when a colony is given up to another state. The colonists have to live under that new government, for better or for worse. The 50 year pledges aren't even worth the paper they're written on - what will people do, go to the UN? How's the working out for Tibet?

Personally I would have preferred to let the Hong Kong people vote for themselves whether they wanted to remain British or become Chinese. This idea of handing off people from one country to another without giving them any say in the matter is quite an anachronism in this day and age.
 
2020-05-22 5:05:45 AM  
Of course it is.  This was the predictable outcome of the 1997 handover.  Instead of sending in tanks immediately China took the more patient approach of eroding Hong Kong's rights slowly, so people got used to the new normal and then they'd chip away again.  But if it really came down to it the West wasn't going to send in tanks.  Not so close to China, which is a legit military power even if they don't project that power beyond their own sphere of interest.

Taiwan will be trickier for China because there's no bridge, and it's easier to defend an island, but Taiwan is next.  That's what the South China Sea island bases are all about.  Well that and claiming resources.
 
2020-05-22 5:11:25 AM  
This looks like a job for Super Trump!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
KIA [recently expired TotalFark]
2020-05-22 5:33:42 AM  
It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.
 
2020-05-22 5:35:05 AM  
Sadly, considering the rampant amount of diseases coming out of China in the past 20 years; we'll probably all be dead soon in the next 20 years because the rich Chinese can't stop eating wild animals nor adjust their public sanitation standards.
 
2020-05-22 5:42:31 AM  

KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.


You have to be a complete idiot to think you didn't just describe America's international posture (although maybe clever is a stretch at this point).

We have routinely backed efforts that lead to major loss of life in less wealthy countries so we can.... honestly sometimes I don't even know what we're doing?

We put on a WMD song and dance that was totally untrue to convince our allies to support a bid to attack Iraq.  Basically you are remembering the events you like and not broadening your scope of view because it doesn't serve you to look at us.

China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.
 
2020-05-22 5:45:03 AM  
What a shame. I guess it was inevitable.
 
KIA [recently expired TotalFark]
2020-05-22 5:45:10 AM  

Super_pope: China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.


You are deluded.  Claiming someone could be a saint but for all of their murdering does not make them saintly.
 
2020-05-22 5:50:37 AM  

KIA: Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.


If only there were a way for young people to find such rare videos with their twitters and facechats.
 
2020-05-22 5:52:57 AM  

KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.


I don't think that you've shared anything vis a vis China that folks didn't already know, but thanks.
 
2020-05-22 5:54:05 AM  

Super_pope: KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.

You have to be a complete idiot to think you didn't just describe America's international posture (although maybe clever is a stretch at this point).

We have routinely backed efforts that lead to major loss of life in less wealthy countries so we can.... honestly sometimes I don't even know what we're doing?

We put on a WMD song and dance that was totally untrue to convince our allies to support a bid to attack Iraq.  Basically you are remembering the events you like and not broadening your scope of view because it doesn't serve you to look at us.

China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.


No. China is exactly the country they want to be.
 
2020-05-22 5:54:31 AM  
Hongkongers is the name of my inter-species erotica Pornhub channel.
 
2020-05-22 6:04:23 AM  
Did anyone honestly expect a different outcome here?
 
2020-05-22 6:12:31 AM  

RasIanI: Super_pope: KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.

You have to be a complete idiot to think you didn't just describe America's international posture (although maybe clever is a stretch at this point).

We have routinely backed efforts that lead to major loss of life in less wealthy countries so we can.... honestly sometimes I don't even know what we're doing?

We put on a WMD song and dance that was totally untrue to convince our allies to support a bid to attack Iraq.  Basically you are remembering the events you like and not broadening your scope of view because it doesn't serve you to look at us.

China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.

No. China is exactly the country they want to be.


That's correct, but we are a great bulwark against successful internal discord because we are always basically announcing they're our enemies
 
2020-05-22 6:12:43 AM  
KIA:

It's time the Fark Le..HURRDURRR!!

*opiniondiscarded.jpg*
 
2020-05-22 6:14:45 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.

Was that the day they started selling opium in China, or the day they stopped?


That doesn't justify The Party taking away the rights of HongKongers.
The Party thanks you for pivoting to blaming foreigners for everything wrong in China, though.
 
2020-05-22 6:18:50 AM  
That's what Xi said!
 
2020-05-22 6:20:17 AM  
Listen, it's been 75 years since the last hot war between major super powers. That's a really long stretch in terms of human history.

Is Hong Kong the price to be paid to keep that going, or is it worth having another world war over? You tell me, I don't know.
 
2020-05-22 6:24:43 AM  
I was fortunate enough to have lived there for a little while. Nice weather, lots of great hiking (restrictions on development), and beaches.

HK is a beautiful city. It will still be a beautiful city, but run by corrupt autocrats, not unlike lots of other cities.
 
2020-05-22 6:26:55 AM  
The protestors did such a great job of destroying Hong Kong's independence, it's hard to believe they are merely incompetent and not secretly in the employ of the Chinese government.
 
2020-05-22 6:37:51 AM  
As I read this, I can't help recalling the Evil Overlord rule

No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head.

I don't think it applies (yet) but maybe eventually.
 
2020-05-22 7:11:16 AM  

NobleHam: The UK should demand it back.



What even is this argument?

Hong Kong is the prime example of a foreign territory gained by the British Empire under horrific 19th century circumstances (the Opium Wars). Unless you're actively willing to defend the British Empire (barely anyone these days), then you have absolutely no leg to stand on arguing against Hong Kong returning to its rightful territorial owners. If China chooses to do that by easing in laws and rights over the 50 year transition period rather than sending the tanks in today, who are you to argue against it? What then is the difference if we demanded Egypt or Sudan back?

And I say that as a Brit.
 
2020-05-22 7:20:11 AM  

KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.



Are you getting this from first-hand experience or the same news media the Fark Left are drawing their conclusions from?  I think we should all be careful with drawing any sort of conclusions about China because any information that we receive about it is HEAVILY propagandized.
 
2020-05-22 7:21:56 AM  

havocmike: Listen, it's been 75 years since the last hot war between major super powers. That's a really long stretch in terms of human history.

Is Hong Kong the price to be paid to keep that going, or is it worth having another world war over? You tell me, I don't know.


No, the line stops at Taiwan (sorry HK). but China cant win against the whole world.

/Chinese
/Corona
/Virus
 
2020-05-22 7:23:51 AM  

Masket: NobleHam: The UK should demand it back.


What even is this argument?

Hong Kong is the prime example of a foreign territory gained by the British Empire under horrific 19th century circumstances (the Opium Wars). Unless you're actively willing to defend the British Empire (barely anyone these days), then you have absolutely no leg to stand on arguing against Hong Kong returning to its rightful territorial owners.


Fine, then give it to the Republic of China. It's pretty difficult to make a case for the PRC being the rightful owners of a territory claimed but undeveloped by the Qing 200 years ago.

If China chooses to do that by easing in laws and rights over the 50 year transition period rather than sending the tanks in today, who are you to argue against it? What then is the difference if we demanded Egypt or Sudan back?

Neither Egypt nor Sudan was ceded with an agreement stipulating 50 years of self-rule. Not "transition," autonomy under the Constitution drafted the representatives of Hong Kong prior to transfer.

And yes, I know the UK can't actually do anything, and China will get away with this, but China deserves a little "fark you."
 
2020-05-22 7:27:14 AM  

Clash City Farker: havocmike: Listen, it's been 75 years since the last hot war between major super powers. That's a really long stretch in terms of human history.

Is Hong Kong the price to be paid to keep that going, or is it worth having another world war over? You tell me, I don't know.

No, the line stops at Taiwan (sorry HK). but China cant win against the whole world.

/Chinese
/Corona
/Virus



Fark libs pay attention, THIS is how you show your support for Trump.
 
2020-05-22 7:38:06 AM  
Phooey.
 
2020-05-22 7:46:36 AM  
Why are we still trading with China at all? They are running concentration camps and engaged in ethnic cleansing.

What happened to never again?
 
2020-05-22 7:53:03 AM  

i ignore u: Of course it is.  This was the predictable outcome of the 1997 handover.  Instead of sending in tanks immediately China took the more patient approach of eroding Hong Kong's rights slowly, so people got used to the new normal and then they'd chip away again.  But if it really came down to it the West wasn't going to send in tanks.  Not so close to China, which is a legit military power even if they don't project that power beyond their own sphere of interest.

Taiwan will be trickier for China because there's no bridge, and it's easier to defend an island, but Taiwan is next.  That's what the South China Sea island bases are all about.  Well that and claiming resources.


Taiwan is not even a question at the moment. China doesn't have the capabilities to take Taiwan, and taking Taiwan isn't in China's interest as the economic backlash that will result from military action will upset the main policy goals of the Chinese government.  Taiwan wiil only need to worry if China develops a serious political and economic crisis leading to economic downturn and the coming to power of even more nationalist and populist leaders who need a diversion and unite the people against an enemy. In other words, if China goes the way of Russia. And going the way of Russia is exactly what is the CCP's greatest fear and what they have been trying to avoid at all cost.

The South China Sea bases have little to do with Taiwan, but rather with securing economic stability. Again loss of stability is China's leadership's greatest fear.  40% of global trade flows through the South China Sea. China is completely dependent on it.  Any disruption will devasating.  Hence trying to build a military presence there is an entirely logical step, it's what civilizations have done for centuries.  China's territiorial claims are of course ridiculous from a legal perspective , but from a policy standpoint it is entirely logical for China trying to build a blue water navy and attempting to control the shipping lanes on which it is so dependent, especially -from Chinese perspective- looking at what his happening in the USA, a potential enemy with a government  that is ever growing more chaotic and unpredictable.  They are not doing anything else then what Europe and the US have been doing for centuries already.
 
2020-05-22 8:02:59 AM  

Masket: NobleHam: The UK should demand it back.


What even is this argument?

Hong Kong is the prime example of a foreign territory gained by the British Empire under horrific 19th century circumstances (the Opium Wars). Unless you're actively willing to defend the British Empire (barely anyone these days), then you have absolutely no leg to stand on arguing against Hong Kong returning to its rightful territorial owners. If China chooses to do that by easing in laws and rights over the 50 year transition period rather than sending the tanks in today, who are you to argue against it? What then is the difference if we demanded Egypt or Sudan back?

And I say that as a Brit.


And a good part of what drove them to communism to begin with.
 
2020-05-22 8:03:15 AM  
NobleHam:

And yes, I know the UK can't actually do anything, and China will get away with this, but China deserves a little "fark you."

The world did nothing to stop China invading Tibet. It's currently doing nothing do stop the effective eradication of the Muslim Uighur culture in the county's north-west. And I don't see what verbal lip-service decrying this in Hong Kong is going to do either. There's no point to merely denouncing China's actions with no actual action behind it.

Hong Kong will be fully Chinese in 2047, one country one system. Macau will join it shortly afterwards. And the only country on Earth with the power to stop it is China themselves. So no, it's time to accept the inevitable.
 
2020-05-22 8:07:35 AM  

KIA: Super_pope: China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.

You are deluded.  Claiming someone could be a saint but for all of their murdering does not make them saintly.


I think it is more deluded to think that the nation with the world's largest military being heavily involved in the last half century of foreign policy hasn't had some impact on the manner in which other countries conduct their business.
 
2020-05-22 8:11:22 AM  

Super_pope: KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.

You have to be a complete idiot to think you didn't just describe America's international posture (although maybe clever is a stretch at this point).

We have routinely backed efforts that lead to major loss of life in less wealthy countries so we can.... honestly sometimes I don't even know what we're doing?

We put on a WMD song and dance that was totally untrue to convince our allies to support a bid to attack Iraq.  Basically you are remembering the events you like and not broadening your scope of view because it doesn't serve you to look at us.

China could be a very different country if we weren't spending like half our time posturing against them for the last 30 years.


It goes two ways. At time we do need send a clearer message to the Chinese leadership that, if China wants to be a major global player, it needs to improve on human rights and it needs to show more international responsiblity. You shouldn't want to cooperate with countries that put people in concentration camps. For the past 20 years, western countries have only been paying lip service to human rights issue in China but quickly shut up about when it was time to sign some trade contracts.  Like in the South China Sea, China has very literally been testing the waters repeatedly, and we have been letting them get away it. Problem with that is that of course the USA especially has not exactly been setting he right example lately when it comes to showing global responsibility.

At the same time, in the end the only chance you have of seeing a future China that is more free and transparant is continued economic growth.
Many people make the mistake that economic growth follows Democracy, but it is the other way around Democracy follows economic growth. When you have a large enough educated middle class at a certain point authoritarianism  becomes unsustainable. We've seen this happening in Korea, in Taiwan, in Singapore, all countries that started out authoritarian but were forced eventually into change by their own people.  It's really the only hope for a good outcome in the end.    An overly aggressive stance towards China therefore, one that leads to economic isolation/boycott or even military intervention, will only be counter-effective, as economic downturn will only lead to internal instability and regression, resulting very likely in more autocracy and militarism with devastating effects for China, the wider region, and the world.  

So, dealing with China in the right way is very much a balancing act. You need to keep working with them, also for. mutual economic benefit and hope that eventually economic growth will lead to a more liberal and more responsible China, while on the other sometime we need to dare to draw a line occassionally.
 
2020-05-22 8:11:28 AM  

NobleHam: Masket: NobleHam: The UK should demand it back.


What even is this argument?

Hong Kong is the prime example of a foreign territory gained by the British Empire under horrific 19th century circumstances (the Opium Wars). Unless you're actively willing to defend the British Empire (barely anyone these days), then you have absolutely no leg to stand on arguing against Hong Kong returning to its rightful territorial owners.

Fine, then give it to the Republic of China. It's pretty difficult to make a case for the PRC being the rightful owners of a territory claimed but undeveloped by the Qing 200 years ago.

If China chooses to do that by easing in laws and rights over the 50 year transition period rather than sending the tanks in today, who are you to argue against it? What then is the difference if we demanded Egypt or Sudan back?

Neither Egypt nor Sudan was ceded with an agreement stipulating 50 years of self-rule. Not "transition," autonomy under the Constitution drafted the representatives of Hong Kong prior to transfer.

And yes, I know the UK can't actually do anything, and China will get away with this, but China deserves a little "fark you."


Best you'll get without wwiii is accepting thise who want to leave as refugees.
 
2020-05-22 8:30:49 AM  

Commander Lysdexic: Marcus Aurelius: blender61: It was lost the day the British signed on the bottom line.
Not that they had much choice or leverage.

Was that the day they started selling opium in China, or the day they stopped?

That doesn't justify The Party taking away the rights of HongKongers.
The Party thanks you for pivoting to blaming foreigners for everything wrong in China, though.


Hong Kong was never ever going to become an independent political territory.  If you believed that, you have never spent any time in China.  China is going to reabsorb both Hong Kong and Taiwan, and nothing on God's green earth is going to stop them.

Nothing.
 
2020-05-22 8:34:50 AM  

bikkurikun: Many people make the mistake that economic growth follows Democracy, but it is the other way around Democracy follows economic growth. When you have a large enough educated middle class at a certain point authoritarianism becomes unsustainable


^ This.  Education is the key to a free society.
 
2020-05-22 8:36:44 AM  

pxlboy: China can still get farked.


Yep, and we can all start by checking the back of the labels if the crap we're about to buy. Fark Gyna!
 
2020-05-22 8:41:05 AM  

KIA: It's time the Fark Left actually learns what a repressive authoritarian regime is really like.

China does not recognize personal rights or freedoms of any kind.  It recognizes force and power and uses them as it sees fit for its own ends.

Many of you were not alive to see protesters stand in front of tanks in 1989 nor to see them run down without mercy.  But that is the real China.  Raw force carefully hidden away by clever propaganda.  It is expansionist, aggressive and merciless.  It arrests political opponents, disappears people and organ harvests criminals.

You need to open your eyes and think about what is really going on.


Trump wishes he could be as powerful as Xi. He's already been declared above the law, but luckily he's an incompetent fool.
 
2020-05-22 8:44:08 AM  

havocmike: Listen, it's been 75 years since the last hot war between major super powers. That's a really long stretch in terms of human history.

Is Hong Kong the price to be paid to keep that going, or is it worth having another world war over? You tell me, I don't know.


Are you familiar with the parable of the camel and the tent, or the frog and the boiling water?
 
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