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(Reuters)   "On second thought, maybe we were a tad bit hasty in how we dealt with Captain Crozier. Hmm... how can we save a little face here?"   (reuters.com) divider line
    More: Followup, United States Department of Defense, United States Navy, Theodore Roosevelt, Navy, Captain Brett Crozier, U.S. Navy Secretary Thomas Modly, Royal Navy, United States Marine Corps  
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16547 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 04 Apr 2020 at 10:21 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-04-04 10:01:40 AM  
This guy will make a great Sec. Nav.
He has great insight on who were the people between navy captain to current Sec. Nav who don't give a fark about sailors or combat readiness for that matter. He didn't just save sailors, he ensured the readiness of his ship. The aholes who kicked him out claimed he revealed information about combat readiness. Well, that readiness would had been zero if the illness was allowed to run rampant through the ship. And it wouldn't had stayed a secret long when sailors are being hauled out of the ship in stretchers. First, the whole base would be talking about it and then the whole farking island of Guam. The place has like 150K people, and the navy bases are the biggest employer. It would take like five minutes for the info that there are thousands of sick sailors on the ship to move from the dock, to the base, to the civilian employees to the social media of everyone on the island to their news.
 
2020-04-04 10:06:39 AM  
I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.
 
2020-04-04 10:22:43 AM  
Rule #1: Don't embarrass the bosses

/rule # 1 should go out the window when people's lives are at stake, but here we are
 
2020-04-04 10:23:09 AM  
Trump overrules and tries to court martial the captain in 3.. 2..
 
2020-04-04 10:24:24 AM  

edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.


Yeah but it made Twittler look bad which is a worse crime than if he just let the virus kill a chunk of his crew.
 
2020-04-04 10:25:02 AM  
"Save ...face? That's not like 'backpedaling,' is it? We don't do that here."
 
2020-04-04 10:25:29 AM  
Regardless of whether he did what they claim, you'd think that a bunch of people who allegedly went through years of leadership training would know that you praise people in public and chew them out in private.
 
2020-04-04 10:25:54 AM  

kbronsito: This guy will make a great Sec. Nav.
He has great insight on who were the people between navy captain to current Sec. Nav who don't give a fark about sailors or combat readiness for that matter. He didn't just save sailors, he ensured the readiness of his ship. The aholes who kicked him out claimed he revealed information about combat readiness. Well, that readiness would had been zero if the illness was allowed to run rampant through the ship. And it wouldn't had stayed a secret long when sailors are being hauled out of the ship in stretchers. First, the whole base would be talking about it and then the whole farking island of Guam. The place has like 150K people, and the navy bases are the biggest employer. It would take like five minutes for the info that there are thousands of sick sailors on the ship to move from the dock, to the base, to the civilian employees to the social media of everyone on the island to their news.


There are plenty of people his rank that are kept afloat by the people under/around them.

I despair because of the number of idiot full birds I run into.
 
2020-04-04 10:26:03 AM  

edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.


Both of the people I know who worked in/with the military immediately said he'd be fired when the first story came out. That there's a reason enlisted have disdain for The Brass and it happens at least once a week.
/sadface
 
2020-04-04 10:26:06 AM  
Modly said in an interview that the letter was shared too widely and leaked before even he could see it.

And you don't even have a clue that your "chain of command" is rotten?  Resign before Trump throws you under the bus.
 
2020-04-04 10:26:20 AM  
The Captain was obviously repeating a lamestream media, liberal hoax.
 
2020-04-04 10:27:35 AM  
This guy must have been called Moldy his entire childhood.
 
2020-04-04 10:28:23 AM  

Vhale: edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.

Both of the people I know who worked in/with the military immediately said he'd be fired when the first story came out. That there's a reason enlisted have disdain for The Brass and it happens at least once a week.
/sadface


This is accurate but he is brass too. I am not willing to say he did not have a part to play in this situation deteriorating as badly as it did. The fact he lost so much control of the situation meant there was no way he was keeping his command.
 
2020-04-04 10:29:51 AM  

edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.



The claims haven't been clear. But it seems they are not accusing him of leaking his own letter. The deal seems to be that he CCd too many people and should have expected the leak. If it is as you say about this guy knowing the game--and I believe it is--he was authorized to copy everyone he did. It may have been a bit unusual to copy that many people, some may had been gray areas. There's probably some manual that either expressly says he was allowed to share that kind of info with all of them, or at the very least it isn't prohibited.
 
2020-04-04 10:30:09 AM  
I'm sure when he sent out the letter he expected nothing less
 
2020-04-04 10:31:22 AM  

fortheloveof: Vhale: edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.

Both of the people I know who worked in/with the military immediately said he'd be fired when the first story came out. That there's a reason enlisted have disdain for The Brass and it happens at least once a week.
/sadface

This is accurate but he is brass too. I am not willing to say he did not have a part to play in this situation deteriorating as badly as it did. The fact he lost so much control of the situation meant there was no way he was keeping his command.


How did he "lose control" - he's commanding a floating, isolated, densely populated city where people have "jobs" that they can't get out of. Social distancing is impossible as you have to keep the ship running.

My understanding was that he wanted  a 2 week "reset" for everyone and then to get back under way.

Seems perfectly reasonable. The longer everyone waited above him the more people would get sick and combat readiness would go to zero for 1/29 of the Carrier force and a bigger proportion in what every theater of action he is in.

Are you this dense?
 
2020-04-04 10:31:23 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: Trump overrules and tries to court martial the captain in 3.. 2..


Maybe he can slit the throat of an unconscious prisoner and get his job back?
 
2020-04-04 10:31:50 AM  
No snark.

Dude's a hero.

He can sleep at night knowing he did the correct thing. How I view life, is like a gas tank. On the left side of the gauge is green, on the right is red. Your good actions push the needle to the green, while the bad ones to the red. When you die, hopefully you're in the green. This dude is solid green.
 
2020-04-04 10:32:07 AM  

ColonelCathcart: fortheloveof: Vhale: edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.

Both of the people I know who worked in/with the military immediately said he'd be fired when the first story came out. That there's a reason enlisted have disdain for The Brass and it happens at least once a week.
/sadface

This is accurate but he is brass too. I am not willing to say he did not have a part to play in this situation deteriorating as badly as it did. The fact he lost so much control of the situation meant there was no way he was keeping his command.

How did he "lose control" - he's commanding a floating, isolated, densely populated city where people have "jobs" that they can't get out of. Social distancing is impossible as you have to keep the ship running.

My understanding was that he wanted  a 2 week "reset" for everyone and then to get back under way.

Seems perfectly reasonable. The longer everyone waited above him the more people would get sick and combat readiness would go to zero for 1/29 of the Carrier force and a bigger proportion in what every theater of action he is in.

Are you this dense?


1/20th sorry
 
2020-04-04 10:32:51 AM  

Omnivorous: Modly said in an interview that the letter was shared too widely and leaked before even he could see it.

And you don't even have a clue that your "chain of command" is rotten?  Resign before Trump throws you under the bus.


Trump is the one who hired Modly after Trump fired the former secretary of navy for refusing  to keep murderer Eddie Gallagher from being punished. Gallagher killed unarmed prisoners and civilians and even his own man testified against him, and then Trump called him a hero. Our president, ladies and gentlemen.
 
2020-04-04 10:33:34 AM  
Modly did not suggest that Crozier's career was over, saying he thought everyone deserved a chance at "redemption."

There isn't enough Go F*k Yourself in stock right now to respond to an asshole like that.
 
2020-04-04 10:35:07 AM  
Modly did not suggest that Crozier's career was over, saying he thought everyone deserved a chance at "redemption."

Redemption will require swallowing, I'm afraid.  I'm not sure the good captain would debase himself to that level.  I'd like to hope not.
 
2020-04-04 10:35:32 AM  
Any observance of competence must be punished, god help you if you exhibit moral leanings.
 
2020-04-04 10:36:05 AM  
The guy knew what he was doing.  He knows the game and did what he thought was right anyway.

That makes him ok in my book.  In fact, it took a lot of courage.  Good on him.
 
2020-04-04 10:36:17 AM  

ColonelCathcart: Rule #1: Don't embarrass the bosses

/rule # 1 should go out the window when people's lives are at stake, but here we are


Being punished for doing the right thing...politics as usual
 
2020-04-04 10:36:58 AM  

Schmerd1948: Trump is the one who hired Modly


And Modly is still sucking Trump's dick, based on the available evidence.
 
2020-04-04 10:37:32 AM  
 
2020-04-04 10:37:57 AM  
The entire seaborne Navy must be dealing with CoronaVirus about now. Think of what the Submariners are thinking now, especially if they have cases and are thousands of miles from home port.

We don't need a mutiny on our hands, and the Captain of the Theodore Roosevelt did the right thing.
When will other naval commanders speak out, or will the "Pentagon" smother any and all reports of disease on board.
 
2020-04-04 10:38:20 AM  

AsparagusFTW: No snark.

Dude's a hero.

He can sleep at night knowing he did the correct thing. How I view life, is like a gas tank. On the left side of the gauge is green, on the right is red. Your good actions push the needle to the green, while the bad ones to the red. When you die, hopefully you're in the green. This dude is solid green.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-04-04 10:38:55 AM  

buttercat: The guy knew what he was doing.  He knows the game and did what he thought was right anyway.

That makes him ok in my book.  In fact, it took a lot of courage.  Good on him.


Death is lighter than a feather. Duty is heavier than a mountain.

This captain was sn officer and a gentleman.
 
2020-04-04 10:39:02 AM  
No disciplinary actions, and further, a commendation for alerting them to procedures that need to be reviewed and updated would be a good start.
 
2020-04-04 10:39:03 AM  

zepillin: I'm sure when he sent out the letter he expected nothing less


Which is why he's a hero.

Expect to get chopped, yet still made the shot to save the crew.  Pure hero.

Ten to one says Trump fires the Acting Secretary of the Navy.  Cheetolini sees the outrage and will throw him under the bus to avoid the heat.  They're both shiatheels, but Grifter-In-Cheif is dirtier and can get away with stabbing his underling in the back to preserve his precious poll numbers.
 
2020-04-04 10:39:36 AM  
At least these brass asses ARE actually admitting that oh golly goshy, maybe they were just barely possibly kinda sorta just a teeny tiny slight bit wruh wruh wruh wrong.

Unlike the (monkey) Crap In Cheap.
 
2020-04-04 10:41:08 AM  
scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.netView Full Size
 
2020-04-04 10:41:31 AM  
i read a lot of military history (especially war memoirs) and I've noticed this recurring theme.  it's been mentioned in different ways, but some people are fantastic field grade officers (majors, colonels) but wouldn't make suitable generals.  it's the difference between tenaciously chasing after the mission versus taking to heart that it will cost a number of good men their lives or well-being for what's left of it.

if you were in charge of a regiment and given orders to charge your ranks dick-first up a fortified hill, naturally as a field grade commander you'd have a problem with this.  but from the general's point of view that objective must be taken to proceed with the mission at large.

they say that's why a number of good men never get promoted to the upper echelons
 
2020-04-04 10:42:02 AM  

kbronsito: edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.


The claims haven't been clear. But it seems they are not accusing him of leaking his own letter. The deal seems to be that he CCd too many people and should have expected the leak. If it is as you say about this guy knowing the game--and I believe it is--he was authorized to copy everyone he did. It may have been a bit unusual to copy that many people, some may had been gray areas. There's probably some manual that either expressly says he was allowed to share that kind of info with all of them, or at the very least it isn't prohibited.


The dude is the captain of an aircraft carrier.  You can bet your sweet ass he follows Navy regulations.  He practically IS a frigging Navy regulation.

Trump, on the other hand, is a complete and utter disgrace.  Trump's toad, Modly, is almost as big a toad as the AG, Barr.  They're having a dick sucking competition from the looks of things.
 
2020-04-04 10:42:35 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Schmerd1948: Trump is the one who hired Modly

And Modly is still sucking Trump's dick, based on the available evidence.


It won't be enough.  Which is great.

Everyone gets thrown under the bus if they hurt his poll numbers.
 
2020-04-04 10:43:35 AM  
Shiat like this is how a military coup starts.
 
2020-04-04 10:44:07 AM  

ColonelCathcart: fortheloveof: Vhale: edmo: I served eight years as an Air Force officer and later finished a federal career from a middle management position. I'm not buying the narrative that the Captain went outside official channels all the way, never contacting anyone in the chain of command. That's just not how it's done. Likely he reached that point of desperation after having been ignored way too long, a timespan he was measuring in casualties.

You don't get to be the commander of an aircraft carrier without understanding how to play the game.

Both of the people I know who worked in/with the military immediately said he'd be fired when the first story came out. That there's a reason enlisted have disdain for The Brass and it happens at least once a week.
/sadface

This is accurate but he is brass too. I am not willing to say he did not have a part to play in this situation deteriorating as badly as it did. The fact he lost so much control of the situation meant there was no way he was keeping his command.

How did he "lose control" - he's commanding a floating, isolated, densely populated city where people have "jobs" that they can't get out of. Social distancing is impossible as you have to keep the ship running.

My understanding was that he wanted  a 2 week "reset" for everyone and then to get back under way.

Seems perfectly reasonable. The longer everyone waited above him the more people would get sick and combat readiness would go to zero for 1/29 of the Carrier force and a bigger proportion in what every theater of action he is in.

Are you this dense?


I am aware of the realities of the military and the thought processes that drive it.

Everything you just said doesn't matter. He was in command. Everything is his fault. From the military thought process and mind set he should have done *something* more. The Yorktown managed to limb back to port and be back in the fight after three days of refit, he should have achieved better results.

Look I get it, from any rational standpoint he probably did alright. But the military is not rational, if you are in command and this happens on your watch kiss your command goodbye.

The only positive is this will be dissected for lessons to be learned, and some of them might even sink in.

But from the military standpoint he was given command of one of the most important strategic assets at a commander's disposal. At the point you are given that sort of command you had better be ready for any and all contingencies, regardless of your inability to know which ones are coming your way.
 
2020-04-04 10:44:23 AM  

Program User: Marcus Aurelius: Schmerd1948: Trump is the one who hired Modly

And Modly is still sucking Trump's dick, based on the available evidence.

It won't be enough.  Which is great.

Everyone gets thrown under the bus if they hurt his poll numbers.


I hope this is one of those stories that just keep coming back, like a bad penny.
 
2020-04-04 10:45:35 AM  

fortheloveof: The fact he lost so much control of the situation meant there was no way he was keeping his command.


How did Capt. Crozier "lose control"?  His ship was contaminated and he didn't have the space to isolate those testing positive (and apparently didn't have a way to test the entire crew).  A Navy ship is too confined to isolate part of the crew, even if you have a hanger deck measured in acres.  Planes still have to fly.

The ship I served on (an oiler) had a large, covered cargo deck, but putting sick people there would have required the healthy folks to go topside to go fore and aft.  Not recommended at night.

Crozier repeatedly asked for help and got nothing.  Loss of control happened in the chain of command above him.  Modly and Esper should be out, and Crozier should get his command back.

I'd wager Crozier was on the list for Rear Admiral, but that's out the window now.

Shooting the messenger, especially for something like COVID, will result in other ships becoming combat-ineffective as their crews get sick.  If the Navy isn't testing sub crews before they deploy, that's a disaster in the making.  Some boomer will have to abort their 62-day patrol because sailors are deathly ill or some have died.  Granted, the missiles on the boomer can reach their target from the pier at the sub's home port, but MAD requires them to be out of sight and untraceable.
 
2020-04-04 10:45:43 AM  

arcgear: i read a lot of military history (especially war memoirs) and I've noticed this recurring theme.  it's been mentioned in different ways, but some people are fantastic field grade officers (majors, colonels) but wouldn't make suitable generals.  it's the difference between tenaciously chasing after the mission versus taking to heart that it will cost a number of good men their lives or well-being for what's left of it.

if you were in charge of a regiment and given orders to charge your ranks dick-first up a fortified hill, naturally as a field grade commander you'd have a problem with this.  but from the general's point of view that objective must be taken to proceed with the mission at large.

they say that's why a number of good men never get promoted to the upper echelons


Fark user imageView Full Size


I'm reminded of Colonel Holden's threat to Herr Starr in Preacher.
 
2020-04-04 10:46:02 AM  
Sorry, but Fark Guy Who Reads Clancy Novels already weighed in and said this was a dereliction of duty. They also said Chicoms and Norks several times.  Now that's some inside baseball!
 
2020-04-04 10:46:07 AM  
I like to judge companies and the quality of their management by their level's of staff turn over - in fact I think tax levels should be in some way associated with that figure.
 
2020-04-04 10:48:14 AM  
Is there anything this administration can't fark up?
 
2020-04-04 10:48:23 AM  

Crabs_Can_Polevault: "Save ...face? That's not like 'backpedaling,' is it? We don't do that here."


It's a shiatty backpedaling even.
 
2020-04-04 10:48:44 AM  
Crozier is a hero. He saw the threat to his men and took steps to save them.

Were I in a position to do so. I'd buy him dinner.
 
2020-04-04 10:49:36 AM  

arcgear: i read a lot of military history (especially war memoirs) and I've noticed this recurring theme.  it's been mentioned in different ways, but some people are fantastic field grade officers (majors, colonels) but wouldn't make suitable generals.  it's the difference between tenaciously chasing after the mission versus taking to heart that it will cost a number of good men their lives or well-being for what's left of it.

if you were in charge of a regiment and given orders to charge your ranks dick-first up a fortified hill, naturally as a field grade commander you'd have a problem with this.  but from the general's point of view that objective must be taken to proceed with the mission at large.

they say that's why a number of good men never get promoted to the upper echelons


Competing ideologies or who has the clearer long view, I imagine.
 
2020-04-04 10:51:00 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: Trump overrules and tries to court martial the captain in 3.. 2..


If Crozier really wants to get a Presidential pardon he's going to have to kill some Muslim civilians and then brag about it on Breitbart.
 
2020-04-04 10:51:43 AM  

Wraithstrike: Crozier is a hero. He saw the threat to his men and took steps to save them.

Were I in a position to do so. I'd buy him dinner.


My guess is that he will not need to pay for a drink in very many bars for the rest of his life, if he so chooses.
 
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