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(Washington Post)   Yeah don't hug each other yet, but it turns out that social distancing, saving lives and saving the economy are all mutually complementary things   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Sociology, Mathematics, Imperial College London, SAVE, Summation, past week, regimen of moderate social distancing, lieutenant governor of Texas  
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2089 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Mar 2020 at 1:41 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-03-30 11:12:13 PM  
But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?
 
2020-03-31 1:52:56 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?


Where have you been for the last 30 years, fellow consumer?
 
2020-03-31 1:57:36 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?


The mafia has always believe blood is expensive
 
2020-03-31 1:58:44 AM  
Oh good, the Department of Pulling Numbers Out of Our Asses is apparently fully staffed and working through the pandemic.
 
2020-03-31 2:00:21 AM  
Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.
 
2020-03-31 2:01:55 AM  
Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.
 
2020-03-31 2:02:03 AM  

bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


We should use this to get:
Medicare available for purchase for all.
15 an hour minimum wage.
Rent control.
Basic income for all.
This would make lockdowns much more effortless
 
2020-03-31 2:04:17 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.


So c19 is better than no food?
Are you saying you'd rather have a bed in a c19 ward instead of being on the street?


Maybe we need to implement a universal income for everyone maybe we need Medicare for purchase for all maybe we need $15 an hour minimum wage and maybe we need rent control
 
2020-03-31 2:07:40 AM  

waxbeans: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


This would make lockdowns much more effortless


I don't want lockdowns to be made more effortless.  I want them to be painful.  I don't want to make it easier and easier for the government to decide the less and less dire emergencies call for a nationwide lockdown as a way to deal with them.
 
2020-03-31 2:11:07 AM  

waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?


Yes c19 is better than no food.  With c19 my chance of dying is less than 1%.  No food?  That's pretty much 100% chance of death if it goes on long enough.  Fortunately in this country that's a false choice.  So far.
 
2020-03-31 2:16:42 AM  
They're speaking the only language Trump understands. Money. I am wondering who Pence is rooting for, money or pestilence.
 
2020-03-31 2:19:58 AM  

waxbeans: AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?

The mafia has always believe blood is expensive


I still can't get in my head how low the mount of money on a contract for someone's life goes for
 
2020-03-31 2:21:06 AM  
Yeah, I was saying this 2 weeks ago, the shutdowns will cost ~$4.5T but the lives saved are worth at least $9T, perhaps $18-20T. Even if you're a cold calculating SoB you have to realize it makes sense. The only people arguing against it are true sociopaths that don't care about others loss of life as long as they can profit, and we're better off without them.
 
2020-03-31 2:26:20 AM  
Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?
 
2020-03-31 2:27:05 AM  
I went to the deli yesterday and and somebody got a bit too close.
I said 'This is Bolognese, I demand a Gouda distance from you!'
 
2020-03-31 2:27:11 AM  

robodog: Yeah, I was saying this 2 weeks ago, the shutdowns will cost ~$4.5T but the lives saved are worth at least $9T, perhaps $18-20T. Even if you're a cold calculating SoB you have to realize it makes sense. The only people arguing against it are true sociopaths that don't care about others loss of life as long as they can profit, and we're better off without them.


Not only that, but people still are not going to spend money until this is over.
Healthcare, food, and toiletries are still part of the overall economy.
The first round of stimulus should be directed towards the crisis.
After the crisis is manageable then it makes sense to help people hurt economically by it.
 
2020-03-31 2:31:41 AM  

Moniker o' Shame: Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?


That only works if 100% of the population is in essential industries.
There are people who can't work right now and the people who are working are spending less money.
We have to prioritize one over the other when they are in conflict
 
2020-03-31 2:39:49 AM  

Straight Outta Hate: Moniker o' Shame: Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?

That only works if 100% of the population is in essential industries.
There are people who can't work right now and the people who are working are spending less money.
We have to prioritize one over the other when they are in conflict


Right.  Your answer defies any semblance of logic.  Carry on doing whatever you do.  I am going to bed.
 
2020-03-31 2:49:43 AM  

DrWhy: waxbeans: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


This would make lockdowns much more effortless

I don't want lockdowns to be made more effortless.  I want them to be painful.  I don't want to make it easier and easier for the government to decide the less and less dire emergencies call for a nationwide lockdown as a way to deal with them.


You know you can just go tell that to c-19.
The general public is too stupid to stay away from each other.
The general public is too stupid to just stay home.
The general public is too stupid to not touch its face.
We need to deal with those realities and have a universal income; rent control; Medicare available  for purchase by all;  15 an hour minimum wage. Rent control.
we need to deal with the realities of pathogens not your touchy-feely happiness.  Cumbia b.s. malarkey.
 
2020-03-31 2:50:28 AM  

DrWhy: waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?

Yes c19 is better than no food.  With c19 my chance of dying is less than 1%.  No food?  That's pretty much 100% chance of death if it goes on long enough.  Fortunately in this country that's a false choice.  So far.


I can personally tell you you can live 14 days without food.
 
2020-03-31 2:51:57 AM  

Straight Outta Hate: waxbeans: AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?

The mafia has always believe blood is expensive

I still can't get in my head how low the mount of money on a contract for someone's life goes for


you know the odd thing is I have a extremely right wing friend who is a gun lover who really believes I am a bleeding heart. on numerous occasions I've tried to get him to understand I am not a bleeding heart.
I'm a leftist
 
2020-03-31 2:52:52 AM  

robodog: Yeah, I was saying this 2 weeks ago, the shutdowns will cost ~$4.5T but the lives saved are worth at least $9T, perhaps $18-20T. Even if you're a cold calculating SoB you have to realize it makes sense. The only people arguing against it are true sociopaths that don't care about others loss of life as long as they can profit, and we're better off without them.


This.
Those ppl are actually bad at business
 
2020-03-31 2:53:37 AM  

Moniker o' Shame: Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?


Wedges issues.
Abortion for example.
Guns too.
 
2020-03-31 2:54:46 AM  

Straight Outta Hate: robodog: Yeah, I was saying this 2 weeks ago, the shutdowns will cost ~$4.5T but the lives saved are worth at least $9T, perhaps $18-20T. Even if you're a cold calculating SoB you have to realize it makes sense. The only people arguing against it are true sociopaths that don't care about others loss of life as long as they can profit, and we're better off without them.

Not only that, but people still are not going to spend money until this is over.
Healthcare, food, and toiletries are still part of the overall economy.
The first round of stimulus should be directed towards the crisis.
After the crisis is manageable then it makes sense to help people hurt economically by it.


10000% this.
I keep saying the world has changed.
 
2020-03-31 2:55:25 AM  

Straight Outta Hate: Moniker o' Shame: Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?

That only works if 100% of the population is in essential industries.
There are people who can't work right now and the people who are working are spending less money.
We have to prioritize one over the other when they are in conflict


Actually incorrect all you need to do is get rid of poverty
 
2020-03-31 3:03:50 AM  

bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


These are the people that dream of having all employees replaced by robots and millions of meatbag customers
 
2020-03-31 3:07:49 AM  

whither_apophis: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.

These are the people that dream of having all employees replaced by robots and millions of meatbag customers


If you don't employ people no one's going to have money to buy your junk
 
2020-03-31 3:21:31 AM  

waxbeans: whither_apophis: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.

These are the people that dream of having all employees replaced by robots and millions of meatbag customers

If you don't employ people no one's going to have money to buy your junk


Congratulations, you're smarter than a MBA
 
2020-03-31 3:24:57 AM  

waxbeans: DrWhy: waxbeans: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


This would make lockdowns much more effortless

I don't want lockdowns to be made more effortless.  I want them to be painful.  I don't want to make it easier and easier for the government to decide the less and less dire emergencies call for a nationwide lockdown as a way to deal with them.

You know you can just go tell that to c-19.
The general public is too stupid to stay away from each other.
The general public is too stupid to just stay home.
The general public is too stupid to not touch its face.
We need to deal with those realities and have a universal income; rent control; Medicare available  for purchase by all;  15 an hour minimum wage. Rent control.
we need to deal with the realities of pathogens not your touchy-feely happiness.  Cumbia b.s. malarkey.


Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said the current crisis isn't worth having this kind of quarantine for.  I said I don't want the government to start to think they can do this kind of thing for crises that are less dire than the one we are currently in.  All of your prescriptions make it easier and easier for the government to take the President of Madagascar ShutEverythingDown approach to less severe crises and get away with it because it is easier to implement.

/also Kum Ba Ya.  It's three words, not one.  Sheesh.
 
2020-03-31 3:28:24 AM  

waxbeans: DrWhy: waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?

Yes c19 is better than no food.  With c19 my chance of dying is less than 1%.  No food?  That's pretty much 100% chance of death if it goes on long enough.  Fortunately in this country that's a false choice.  So far.

I can personally tell you you can live 14 days without food.


Maybe you can, but not everyone can.  I can't.  I have a medical condition that would mean I would likely be dead of I tried to go that long without eating.  Not from starvation, but from hypoglycemic shock.  So no, you can't tell me that I can go 14 days without food.
 
2020-03-31 3:28:44 AM  
i.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2020-03-31 3:42:59 AM  

DrWhy: waxbeans: DrWhy: waxbeans: bingethinker: Maybe those captains of industry finally remembered that dead people don't buy shiat.


This would make lockdowns much more effortless

I don't want lockdowns to be made more effortless.  I want them to be painful.  I don't want to make it easier and easier for the government to decide the less and less dire emergencies call for a nationwide lockdown as a way to deal with them.

You know you can just go tell that to c-19.
The general public is too stupid to stay away from each other.
The general public is too stupid to just stay home.
The general public is too stupid to not touch its face.
We need to deal with those realities and have a universal income; rent control; Medicare available  for purchase by all;  15 an hour minimum wage. Rent control.
we need to deal with the realities of pathogens not your touchy-feely happiness.  Cumbia b.s. malarkey.

Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said the current crisis isn't worth having this kind of quarantine for.  I said I don't want the government to start to think they can do this kind of thing for crises that are less dire than the one we are currently in.  All of your prescriptions make it easier and easier for the government to take the President of Madagascar ShutEverythingDown approach to less severe crises and get away with it because it is easier to implement.

/also Kum Ba Ya.  It's three words, not one.  Sheesh.


Have you been watching the news have you seen how people are not staying away from each one woman a famous one even opted to let herself get sick with him.

I'm a very big civil rights person and an equal rights person; and equality for all person.
I'm not a fan of martial law.
And I'm not deaf to what you're saying.
But in times of crisis it should not come down to whether or not we can financially afford to do it;
there's only one way for that to not be an issue.
Or make everyone rich? LOL.
I'm just being pragmatic and practical.
 
2020-03-31 3:46:22 AM  

DrWhy: waxbeans: DrWhy: waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?

Yes c19 is better than no food.  With c19 my chance of dying is less than 1%.  No food?  That's pretty much 100% chance of death if it goes on long enough.  Fortunately in this country that's a false choice.  So far.

I can personally tell you you can live 14 days without food.

Maybe you can, but not everyone can.  I can't.  I have a medical condition that would mean I would likely be dead of I tried to go that long without eating.  Not from starvation, but from hypoglycemic shock.  So no, you can't tell me that I can go 14 days without food.


Sorry, clearly, not you personally.
considering your situation I hope you support Medicare for purchase for all, a basic universal income for all, rent control, and 15 an hour minimum wage.
 
2020-03-31 4:36:40 AM  

bisi: AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?

Where have you been for the last 30 years, fellow consumer?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-03-31 4:37:31 AM  
Can't keep it up for too long. 

The triple hit of
1.) MASSIVE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, mixed with
2.) SOCIAL ISOLATION, mixed with
3.) ANXIETY/STRESS OVER POSSIBLE CONTRACTING A DEADLY DEADLY MEDIA SAYS YOU'RE GOING TO DIE VIRUS

will lead to more deaths to suicides, cancer, stress induced stroke and heart attacks rather than from this little virus itself.
 
2020-03-31 4:39:14 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?



"You are not special. You're not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else. We're all part of the same compost heap. We're all singing, all dancing crap of the world."
 
2020-03-31 4:46:44 AM  

Captain Steroid: [i.kym-cdn.com image 680x777]


More like a Howard Jones song, because no one ever is to blame.
 
2020-03-31 4:52:57 AM  

Dadoody: Can't keep it up for too long. 

The triple hit of
1.) MASSIVE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, mixed with
2.) SOCIAL ISOLATION, mixed with
3.) ANXIETY/STRESS OVER POSSIBLE CONTRACTING A DEADLY DEADLY MEDIA SAYS YOU'RE GOING TO DIE VIRUS

will lead to more deaths to suicides, cancer, stress induced stroke and heart attacks rather than from this little virus itself.


There will be slight increases in the things you mentioned, but you took it to derp. Cheetolini was pulling things out of his ass and you chowed down like a starving hound.

You dimwits drinking that Trump Flavor-ade will get many of you and other cultists killed. Unfortunately you'll infect many innocent along the way.
 
2020-03-31 5:06:33 AM  

Moniker o' Shame: Is there some reason why we cannot save lives and save the economy at the same time?  Why is everything these days an either/or issue that defies logic?


Health professionals know the pain of forcing people out of work, and the vast majority support the shutdowns. People>Money

Financial experts have been made aware the body count projections for different variables, and don't care. Money>People.

This article/report is just putting lipstick on the Texas Lieutenant Governor's flub, so he can say his position is scientifically supported. No.

You have to be callous as fark to see 1.1M deaths and not want to try for better. Currency is fiat. It's just numbers without purpose, if people are dead.
 
2020-03-31 5:25:00 AM  

waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?
Are you saying you'd rather have a bed in a c19 ward instead of being on the street?


Maybe we need to implement a universal income for everyone maybe we need Medicare for purchase for all maybe we need $15 an hour minimum wage and maybe we need rent control



Yes, COV-19 is way better than no food, since it kills something like 0.5% who have it (don't believe the sky high death rates, most people are NEVER tested) . People who never eat have a 100% death rate.

Universal income doesn't work when people ARE working, let alone AREN'T.
 
2020-03-31 5:43:32 AM  
At least with good, cheap, and fast you can pick any two
 
2020-03-31 7:16:03 AM  

ChuckRoddy: waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?
Are you saying you'd rather have a bed in a c19 ward instead of being on the street?


Maybe we need to implement a universal income for everyone maybe we need Medicare for purchase for all maybe we need $15 an hour minimum wage and maybe we need rent control


Yes, COV-19 is way better than no food, since it kills something like 0.5% who have it (don't believe the sky high death rates, most people are NEVER tested) . People who never eat have a 100% death rate.

Universal income doesn't work when people ARE working, let alone AREN'T.


That's why the next package should mirror what most of the civilized world is doing: guaranteeing payroll. We can get that back in taxes, later. Or not. Figure that out later.

But people? People can't be brought back to life.
 
2020-03-31 7:21:59 AM  

ChuckRoddy: Universal income doesn't work when people ARE working, let alone AREN'T.


That's a legitimate opinion, and one you are entitled to.
I hope you don't think it is a "fact" of some kind.
 
2020-03-31 7:22:32 AM  
Mr. Bezos - tear down this pay!
 
2020-03-31 7:23:31 AM  
....paywall!
 
2020-03-31 8:13:35 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.


It's not that we shouldn't empathize, or work toward improving their situations.  We should absolutely shelter, feed, prevent evictions/foreclosures, and care for every person who is hurting financially.

But, rushing people back out of quarantine will ultimately put more people into dire financial conditions.  It will do little to help the current people who are suffering currently to rush the quarantine process and is more likely to harm them in the long run.

I just woke up and haven't wrapped my head around this current article.  I'm not convinced they got all of their variables correct.  Off the top of my head, that 11 million figure per human, is over the course of a lifetime, and the people dying have are typically older, and their economic value is probably less.  That said, I've read and considered other articles that do properly consider more variables and they agree with the premise that it's a false choice.

In short, we don't have to hate to choose sides, we call all agree that life is more important, and that there's no financial value towards rushing the quarantine process.  It might seem counterproductive if you're one of the people suffering financially currently, but the math works out.

Obviously, we could have mitigated both the financial and health effects much earlier, had the Government administration not actively mismanaged the implementation of this whole thing.  But, rushing the process would be an equally disastrous health/financial decision.
 
2020-03-31 8:16:09 AM  
 
2020-03-31 8:34:35 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: But when we assign humans a dollar value haven't we lost our humanity anyway?


Yes and no.  Should we spend a trillion dollars each to save each and every human in the country from Covid-19, ensuring the we fall into total worldwide economic collapse for an near infinite timeline, creating more death and misery in the long term?  No.  There is a limit to how much we should be willing to give up, and it's not unreasonable to say that. Is doing the math and pointing out that we should optimize survival based on our resources already assigning a dollar value to life?  Yes.

The issue we have right now is that we have a large group in the country that think it's worth killing ~2M people to stave off a very short term stock market drop that we can recover from in a few months.  Which is absurd and unethical (and also, self-defeating).  But yes, there are limits to how much we sacrifice.  There is a reasonable calculus here.

But at this point, the path is pretty obvious.  Hit the brakes hard, and let's ride this thing out for a few months.  Let's re-evaluate near Memorial Day, and maybe be back to something representing normal life by the time we pull out fireworks.
 
2020-03-31 8:56:29 AM  

ChuckRoddy: waxbeans: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Cool. Tell that to the millions now out of work with no idea how to eat or pay their rent.

So c19 is better than no food?
Are you saying you'd rather have a bed in a c19 ward instead of being on the street?


Maybe we need to implement a universal income for everyone maybe we need Medicare for purchase for all maybe we need $15 an hour minimum wage and maybe we need rent control


Yes, COV-19 is way better than no food, since it kills something like 0.5% who have it (don't believe the sky high death rates, most people are NEVER tested) . People who never eat have a 100% death rate.

Universal income doesn't work when people ARE working, let alone AREN'T.


It's at 1% in countries that ARE testing everyone and isolating said people in hospitals with proper care.  It is definitely higher than .5%.  Your numbers are garbage.  They will also be a lot higher when the hospitals cannot test people, and people will die who would otherwise have lived because there are no hospital beds if you just let it run it's course.

Again, you want to see how it's done properly, see Taiwan and South Korea.  They aren't shutting down everything, people are still working.  It took competent leadership with people getting tested, self isolating if they were feeling ill, then doing contact tracing for everyone they could have been in contact with, testing and then isolating.

They haven't gone the draconian route, yet are still controlling this thing way better than we are.  It's not because they're hand waving it away saying that it has a .5% death rate.

Also if it were still only a .5% cfr we're still looking at 1.635 million deaths in the united states.  More than gun deaths, flu, and car accidents combined.  That is a big loss.  Since the US also has a high rate of illnesses that make them prime targets for death we're looking at a lot higher of a rate too.
 
2020-03-31 9:08:21 AM  
the american response to Covid-19 now and in the future shall be the most transformative experience in our history since the aftermath of the Civil War. The measures we are enduring now may reduce the rates of death and disruption amongst us to levels below those following 1861. The "new normal" changes  in our national reality will help decide what kind of country we want to be going forward.  What have we learned from that conflict and the wars since? What sustained us through the many econonomic and existential health crisises our nation has surmounted?                                                   These things. Compassion for others, tempered by enlightened self-interest. The ability to change our deal on the fly. Most of all? Big Ones. My best wishes to the rest of the world.
 
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