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(AP News)   Archaeologists have discovered a pair of Bronze Age royal tombs in Greece, dating back approximately 3500 years   (apnews.com) divider line
    More: Vintage, Mycenaean Greece, Trojan War, Minoan civilization, Bronze Age, monumental royal tombs, Homer, Greek mythology, Ancient Egypt  
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1099 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 17 Dec 2019 at 9:16 PM (49 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



24 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2019-12-17 7:04:55 PM  
God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,
 
2019-12-17 7:07:13 PM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,


One thousand. I can math.
 
2019-12-17 7:41:53 PM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,

One thousand. I can math.


Lucky you!  Was just going to point that out.

It is exciting, though.   Whatever the source for Homer, it goes back to this era.  Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods all came long after it.   The Bronze Age Collapse.
 
2019-12-17 8:14:34 PM  

Dewey Fidalgo: NeedlesslyCanadian: NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,

One thousand. I can math.

Lucky you!  Was just going to point that out.

It is exciting, though.   Whatever the source for Homer, it goes back to this era.  Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods all came long after it.   The Bronze Age Collapse.


Yes, 'just' one thousand lol - just a staggering amount of time, period, but especially in terms of the ancient world. Entire civilizations were born, grew to maturity, lived out their existence, and collapsed, in the time between these tombs and the period that most people think of when they hear "ancient Greece."

And for a world whose history was largely transmitted through stories being told from one generation to the next, it's so long that history that far back has fallen into myth.

Love this shiat.
 
2019-12-17 9:33:41 PM  
Im just posting to say that I love this shiat, too.   🥰
 
2019-12-17 9:56:27 PM  
I love it, too.

It's hard to get across just how complete the cultural break was during the dark age between the Mycenaean empire and classical Greece in most places. Almost everything the Mycenaeans did and made was forgotten -- burial customs, the writing systems, even some of the gods. Only a dim memory of the palaces survived in the myth of the Minotaur's labyrinth. It's hard to name a single shrine that people used continuously from Mycenaean times to 700 BC.

It's a miracle that we now know anything at all about the Mycenaeans.
 
2019-12-17 11:04:17 PM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: Dewey Fidalgo: NeedlesslyCanadian: NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,

One thousand. I can math.

Lucky you!  Was just going to point that out.

It is exciting, though.   Whatever the source for Homer, it goes back to this era.  Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods all came long after it.   The Bronze Age Collapse.

Yes, 'just' one thousand lol - just a staggering amount of time, period, but especially in terms of the ancient world. Entire civilizations were born, grew to maturity, lived out their existence, and collapsed, in the time between these tombs and the period that most people think of when they hear "ancient Greece."

And for a world whose history was largely transmitted through stories being told from one generation to the next, it's so long that history that far back has fallen into myth.

Love this shiat.


I know it's goofy to say this, but one of the really cool things I think the recent Assassin's Creed games got right was that they are set in what most people think of as ancient (Egypt, Greece) and the worlds they are set in are crumbling ruins that are surrounded by mythology that characters in game don't understand fully.
 
2019-12-17 11:23:08 PM  

Stochastic Cow: It's hard to name a single shrine that people used continuously from Mycenaean times to 700 BC.


Dodona is the only one that comes to mind readily.   Mycenaean artifacts have been found there. Samothrace is pre-Hellenic.   Olympia is pretty old too.
 
2019-12-17 11:27:53 PM  
Gobekli tepe tells them to get off his lawn.
 
2019-12-17 11:34:55 PM  

SafetyThird: Gobekli tepe tells them to get off his lawn.


It's somewhat sobering how many places have been utterly obliterated thanks to warfare and redevelopment.

Especially those we don't even know about because the destruction happened thousands of years ago.
 
2019-12-17 11:38:14 PM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: Dewey Fidalgo: NeedlesslyCanadian: NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,

One thousand. I can math.

Lucky you!  Was just going to point that out.

It is exciting, though.   Whatever the source for Homer, it goes back to this era.  Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods all came long after it.   The Bronze Age Collapse.

Yes, 'just' one thousand lol - just a staggering amount of time, period, but especially in terms of the ancient world. Entire civilizations were born, grew to maturity, lived out their existence, and collapsed, in the time between these tombs and the period that most people think of when they hear "ancient Greece."

And for a world whose history was largely transmitted through stories being told from one generation to the next, it's so long that history that far back has fallen into myth.

Love this shiat.


Yep, and the Bronze Age Collapse is one of the great mysteries of history.  The Sea Peoples came and, over the course of about a hundred years, kicked ass, left dozens of destroyed cities in their wake, and the only civilization that managed to stay standing against them were the Egyptians (Ramesses the Great era), and no one knows exactly who they were, where they came from, or why they did it.
 
2019-12-18 12:57:01 AM  
for those yjat didn't click through the image gallery
Fark user imageView Full Size



> In this undated photo provided by the Greek Culture Ministry on Tuesday, Dec. 17, 2019, a golden pendant of the Egyptian goddess Hathor is seen that was found in a 3,500-year-old tomb discovered near the southwestern Greek town of Pylos.

Why do they think this is Hathor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor
> Hathor was often depicted as a cow bearing the sun disk between her horns, especially when shown nursing the king. She could also appear as a woman with the head of a cow. Her most common form, however, was a woman wearing a headdress of the horns and sun disk,

Are her weird projecting alien ears supposes to be cow ears?
Is she wearing big hair or is what's on her head supposed to be massive cow horns?

26th century BC Egyptian depiction
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2019-12-18 1:35:55 AM  
I can't wait for that entire region to get the LiDAR Mapping treatment just as Guatemala has been mapped.  All sorts of interesting things are going to pop up.
 
2019-12-18 3:07:08 AM  

2wolves: I can't wait for that entire region to get the LiDAR Mapping treatment just as Guatemala has been mapped.  All sorts of interesting things are going to pop up.


Those parts of Guatemala returned to nature and remained pretty untouched, leaving signs of ancient roads structures both intact and isolated. So a high signal/noise ratio, and a high confidence of hits being, well, ancient.
That part of the old world, being continuously inhabited and continuously altered for 5000 years, its going to have lots that will have been plowed or paved over that won't show, and will be difficult to separate out points of interest from what does show amongst 5 millenia of other activity.
 
2019-12-18 3:22:38 AM  
Interestingly, I just read that a scholar had made a breakthrough in Linear A.

(I know, Minoan != Mycenian, but it's just a big fascinating part of history that even the ancient Greeks thought of as ancient history.)
 
2019-12-18 6:45:01 AM  

HairBolus: for those yjat didn't click through the image gallery
[Fark user image 484x353]


> In this undated photo provided by the Greek Culture Ministry on Tuesday, Dec. 17, 2019, a golden pendant of the Egyptian goddess Hathor is seen that was found in a 3,500-year-old tomb discovered near the southwestern Greek town of Pylos.

Why do they think this is Hathor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor
> Hathor was often depicted as a cow bearing the sun disk between her horns, especially when shown nursing the king. She could also appear as a woman with the head of a cow. Her most common form, however, was a woman wearing a headdress of the horns and sun disk,

Are her weird projecting alien ears supposes to be cow ears?
Is she wearing big hair or is what's on her head supposed to be massive cow horns?


I'm guessing they think those are horns. I suppose they know better, but did Egyptians of that time have much contact with the Greeks? Couldn't it be an image of Io (if they want to keep the cow connection).

Heck, if they said it was Medusa (scary face, Big Dangerous Hair) or Scylla (scary face, naughty tentacles) I'd believe it.
 
2019-12-18 6:53:55 AM  

LrdPhoenix: NeedlesslyCanadian: Dewey Fidalgo: NeedlesslyCanadian: NeedlesslyCanadian: God damn, I love shiat like this. This isn't even 'proper' Greece in the way most people think of it, these tombs are from two thousand years before Thermopylae,

One thousand. I can math.

Lucky you!  Was just going to point that out.

It is exciting, though.   Whatever the source for Homer, it goes back to this era.  Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods all came long after it.   The Bronze Age Collapse.

Yes, 'just' one thousand lol - just a staggering amount of time, period, but especially in terms of the ancient world. Entire civilizations were born, grew to maturity, lived out their existence, and collapsed, in the time between these tombs and the period that most people think of when they hear "ancient Greece."

And for a world whose history was largely transmitted through stories being told from one generation to the next, it's so long that history that far back has fallen into myth.

Love this shiat.

Yep, and the Bronze Age Collapse is one of the great mysteries of history.  The Sea Peoples came and, over the course of about a hundred years, kicked ass, left dozens of destroyed cities in their wake, and the only civilization that managed to stay standing against them were the Egyptians (Ramesses the Great era), and no one knows exactly who they were, where they came from, or why they did it.


Personally I don't really buy the idea of an unknown people ravaging across the lands.

It was a period when all of civilization in the region collapsed. What happens when a civilization collapses? People flee as refugees to the nearest safe harbour. If you've got a whole bunch of civilizations collapsing at once, the refugee demographics are necessarily going to be diverse, so of course to those on the receiving end of a huge influx of people it's going to look like a confederation of peoples.

Maybe they tried to forcibly enter and resettle on others' lands, maybe not, I don't know. Either way, what self-respecting Egyptian god-king is going to pass up the chance to make himself look better by saying he fought off an invasion?
 
2019-12-18 7:58:57 AM  
Isn't this where Anne Rice hid her original vampire king and queen?
 
2019-12-18 8:01:20 AM  

LrdPhoenix: no one knows exactly who they were


Sherden, Sheklesh, Lukka, Tursha and Akawasha, duh
 
2019-12-18 11:26:42 AM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: Personally I don't really buy the idea of an unknown people ravaging across the lands.

It was a period when all of civilization in the region collapsed. What happens when a civilization collapses? People flee as refugees to the nearest safe harbour. If you've got a whole bunch of civilizations collapsing at once, the refugee demographics are necessarily going to be diverse, so of course to those on the receiving end of a huge influx of people it's going to look like a confederation of peoples.

Maybe they tried to forcibly enter and resettle on others' lands, maybe not, I don't know. Either way, what self-respecting Egyptian god-king is going to pass up the chance to make himself look better by saying he fought off an invasion?


I think it was another Migration Period.  Think of what that would look like without the benefit of historians to record it.  This tribe displaces that tribe which displaces other tribes, and you end up with Scandinavians and Germans in Spain and North Africa (and just about everywhere else), taking down long established powers along the way.
 
2019-12-18 12:24:07 PM  

Dryad: 2wolves: I can't wait for that entire region to get the LiDAR Mapping treatment just as Guatemala has been mapped.  All sorts of interesting things are going to pop up.

Those parts of Guatemala returned to nature and remained pretty untouched, leaving signs of ancient roads structures both intact and isolated. So a high signal/noise ratio, and a high confidence of hits being, well, ancient.
That part of the old world, being continuously inhabited and continuously altered for 5000 years, its going to have lots that will have been plowed or paved over that won't show, and will be difficult to separate out points of interest from what does show amongst 5 millenia of other activity.


Didn't say it was going to be easy.  Using LiDAR was science fiction until recently.  The state of the art is rapidly improving.
 
2019-12-18 8:02:31 PM  
Every hypothesis I've heard for the end-Bronze Age collapse has evidence that contradicts it.

Trevor Bryce claims the Hittites fell due to civil war between different factions fighting for the throne, ignoring the fact that other civilizations fell at the same time. There's some evidence for a mega-drought (the Mediterranean is prone to them), but in at least one case archaeologists found a granary burned by attackers while still full of grain. The Sea Peoples idea has had a lot of traction, but as NeedlesslyCanadian pointed out, we have little evidence for who these people were, what they did with the loot, or where they went (the exception here is the Hittite empire, which supposedly fell to their long-time barbarian enemies the Gaska, who settled down and stayed). Robert Drew thought that barbarian innovations in war let them get the upper hand over the empires' chariot armies, but a recent study pretty much proves that chariots were never as central to Bronze Age warfare as Drew claimed. The idea of "earthquake swarms" devastating the major cities was trendy for a while, but the evidence is thin and people who are used to living in earthquake territory don't flee in terror after even a massive quake -- they come back and rebuild.

My guess is, what killed Bronze Age civilization in the Mediterranean was a multi-factor combo: bad weather (maybe drought), an influx of new peoples, and maybe internal factors common to most of these states that we can't define with the evidence that's left.
 
2019-12-18 9:10:35 PM  

Stochastic Cow: Every hypothesis I've heard for the end-Bronze Age collapse has evidence that contradicts it.

Trevor Bryce claims the Hittites fell due to civil war between different factions fighting for the throne, ignoring the fact that other civilizations fell at the same time. There's some evidence for a mega-drought (the Mediterranean is prone to them), but in at least one case archaeologists found a granary burned by attackers while still full of grain. The Sea Peoples idea has had a lot of traction, but as NeedlesslyCanadian pointed out, we have little evidence for who these people were, what they did with the loot, or where they went (the exception here is the Hittite empire, which supposedly fell to their long-time barbarian enemies the Gaska, who settled down and stayed). Robert Drew thought that barbarian innovations in war let them get the upper hand over the empires' chariot armies, but a recent study pretty much proves that chariots were never as central to Bronze Age warfare as Drew claimed. The idea of "earthquake swarms" devastating the major cities was trendy for a while, but the evidence is thin and people who are used to living in earthquake territory don't flee in terror after even a massive quake -- they come back and rebuild.

My guess is, what killed Bronze Age civilization in the Mediterranean was a multi-factor combo: bad weather (maybe drought), an influx of new peoples, and maybe internal factors common to most of these states that we can't define with the evidence that's left.


Yep.

I think climate was probably significantly altered in this period, because the eruption of Thera (the Minoan eruption) happened sometime around 1500 BC. Which wasn't just any old volcanic eruption, the eruption was 100x the force of the Mount St. Helens eruption. This mountain, in the middle of the Aegean, in a time when all of Greek civilization lived within about 400km of it, farking exploded. Every living thing within 50km died, and tsunamis 20m high crashed into Crete, over 100km away.

The volcanic ash fallout of that is damn near inconceivable, it's more than likely that climate changed worldwide, not just in the immediate region. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that much ash in the atmosphere caused a hell of a lot of drought throughout the region, which in turn would cause crop failures, which in turn would cause revolutions and civilizational collapses, and so on and so on.
 
2019-12-18 10:47:47 PM  

NeedlesslyCanadian: Yep.

I think climate was probably significantly altered in this period, because the eruption of Thera (the Minoan eruption) happened sometime around 1500 BC. Which wasn't just any old volcanic eruption, the eruption was 100x the force of the Mount St. Helens eruption. This mountain, in the middle of the Aegean, in a time when all of Greek civilization lived within about 400km of it, farking exploded. Every living thing within 50km died, and tsunamis 20m high crashed into Crete, over 100km away.

The volcanic ash fallout of that is damn near inconceivable, it's more than likely that climate changed worldwide, not just in the immediate region. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that much ash in the atmosphere caused a hell of a lot of drought throughout the region, which in turn would cause crop failures, which in turn would cause revolutions and civilizational collapses, and so on and so on.


Thera was a big eruption, but I doubt it was still effecting the climate 400 years later.  Mt. Tambora in 1815 was on par with, if not bigger than, the Thera eruption, and it only disrupted climate for a few years.

Eruptions that big happen every 500 to 1000 years or so, so we'd be living in a near constant volcanic winter if they still went on for that long.
 
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