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(Guardian)   You won't get the vote, you won't get the vote (ha ha haaaah), you're gonna need the Commons approval and you won't get the vote   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Amusing, House of Lords, Westminster system, United Kingdom, Labour MPs, Boris Johnson's attempt, Jeremy Corbyn, Parliament of the United Kingdom, Opposition parties  
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2894 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Sep 2019 at 2:54 PM (23 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-09-06 11:40:11 AM  
hmmm, vote and get no deal or vote later

not that hard of a choice
 
2019-09-06 03:01:56 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2019-09-06 03:02:45 PM  
It's a shame that parliament is going to be suspended, otherwise Boris could keep working on them. Wait, who asked for the suspension again? Really? HAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
2019-09-06 03:03:28 PM  
Boris is broken...and well past warranty with no user-serviceable parts inside.

Is his brother still functional? Jo is taller, thinner, better looking and much more sensible.
 
2019-09-06 03:06:09 PM  
i.guim.co.ukView Full Size


if only there had been some sign
 
2019-09-06 03:07:36 PM  

MikeyFuccon: Boris is broken...and well past warranty with no user-serviceable parts inside.

Is his brother still functional? Jo is taller, thinner, better looking and much more sensible.


He resigned to spend less time with his family.
 
2019-09-06 03:08:11 PM  
They're helpless
 
2019-09-06 03:09:24 PM  
I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.
 
2019-09-06 03:10:41 PM  

Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.


Well we'll miss you once this is over. Bu-bye now.
 
2019-09-06 03:11:15 PM  

Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.


Wouldn't "meh" have been quicker and easier to type?

\ Appreciate your commitment to not being committed, though.
 
2019-09-06 03:11:42 PM  

Smoking GNU: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Well we'll miss you once this is over. Bu-bye now.


I feel like it's a welcome relief from our shiat show.
 
2019-09-06 03:16:05 PM  
 
2019-09-06 03:16:10 PM  

21-7-b: [i.guim.co.uk image 300x180]

if only there had been some sign


Good gods, what is wrong with that family?

...

Never mind, what's right with them? It'll be a shorter list.
 
2019-09-06 03:17:56 PM  

baron von doodle: Smoking GNU: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Well we'll miss you once this is over. Bu-bye now.

I feel like it's a welcome relief from our shiat show.


Yeah, it's kind of nice to watch someone else's systems fail at the hands of foreign actors and greedy idiots.  Makes me think we're not alone.
 
2019-09-06 03:18:29 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Wouldn't "meh" have been quicker and easier to type?

\ Appreciate your commitment to not being committed, though.


I'm on the fence about it really.
 
2019-09-06 03:18:52 PM  

21-7-b: [i.guim.co.uk image 300x180]

if only there had been some sign


Not sure if actual family or Monty Python gag.
 
2019-09-06 03:19:34 PM  

Subtonic: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Wouldn't "meh" have been quicker and easier to type?

\ Appreciate your commitment to not being committed, though.

I'm on the fence about it really.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2019-09-06 03:21:00 PM  

21-7-b: [i.guim.co.uk image 300x180]

if only there had been some sign


Is the kid on the right wearing a potato sack?
 
2019-09-06 03:21:02 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Wouldn't "meh" have been quicker and easier to type?

\ Appreciate your commitment to not being committed, though.


But we still sometimes doubt their commitment to Sparkle Motion, though.
 
2019-09-06 03:21:53 PM  
laid Cymru's Westminster leader, Liz Saville Roberts, who was involved in the talks, said: "We need to make sure that we get past 31 October, and an extension to article 50. We were in agreement that the prime minister is on the run. Boris is broken. We have an opportunity to bring down Boris, to break Boris, and to bring down Brexit - and we must take that.

Leave it to a Welshwoman  to put this in Game of Thrones terms
 
2019-09-06 03:22:31 PM  
Limey Ralph Wiggum is having a bad week.
 
2019-09-06 03:23:04 PM  

baron von doodle: Smoking GNU: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Well we'll miss you once this is over. Bu-bye now.

I feel like it's a welcome relief from our shiat show.


Both our situations are rooted in Russian election tampering.
 
2019-09-06 03:23:57 PM  

HeartBurnKid: baron von doodle: Smoking GNU: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Well we'll miss you once this is over. Bu-bye now.

I feel like it's a welcome relief from our shiat show.

Yeah, it's kind of nice to watch someone else's systems fail at the hands of foreign actors and greedy idiots.  Makes me think we're not alone.


I was specifically referring to Subton, not brexit.
 
2019-09-06 03:24:49 PM  
It's bad enough, though not surprising, CLOWN is a fan of Boris Johnson and Brexit. But for Pence to be *in Ireland* talking up Boris Johnson and endorsing Brexit?! The GOP is as lost as the Tories.
 
2019-09-06 03:26:43 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: And because it only gets "better"

Boris Johnson's Irish border plan stalls after 'disastrous' EU talks


Johnson quoted, approvingly, Ian Paisley's remark that Ulster was British but its cows were Irish.

My grandmother, God rest her soul, had a field day with that remark. How can Ian tell? she asked. Do his cows go to Mass on Sunday?
 
2019-09-06 03:28:58 PM  

Subtonic: I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.

Wouldn't "meh" have been quicker and easier to type?

\ Appreciate your commitment to not being committed, though.

I'm on the fence about it really.


Well, at least you're comitted to fence sitting.
 
2019-09-06 03:30:31 PM  
I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.
 
2019-09-06 03:32:33 PM  

stoli n coke: Limey Ralph Wiggum is having a bad week.


Don't insult Ralph Wiggum like that.
 
2019-09-06 03:33:07 PM  

DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.


The opposition wants an election. Once they ensure that Boris can't force the timing to be after the Brexit deadline.
 
2019-09-06 03:35:40 PM  
The honorable gentleman from Uxbridge and South Ruislip is advised to go fark himself with a cactus until further notice.
 
2019-09-06 03:35:42 PM  

chrismurphy: The GOP is as lost as the Tories.


Oh absolutely.  In fact probably more so.  They're both parties driven by xenophobic isolationists with faith-based economic policy ideas and connections to Russia, but at least the Tories had a handful of members who put country before party for long enough to snub their cartoonishly idiotic leader.  The GOP doesn't even have that much integrity left.
 
2019-09-06 03:38:30 PM  

DivByZero: There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.


The only thing you're missing is that Boris Johnson could force the election to happen after the Oct. 31 Brexit deadline.
Removing him and the Tories is a pyrrhic victory if Brexit happens anyway.

They do want an election, they just want to make sure it happens after they get the Brexit deadline extended.
 
2019-09-06 03:41:06 PM  
My wish is to keep them up, but let everyone know exactly what it is they fought for.  Let's learn about what shiatbags these traitors were.  How many slaves did they own?  How many Americans did they kill?  I think tearing them down lets the racists pretend it didn't happen.  They're up, so let's rub their noses in it.

And EVERY confederate monument should have this quote by the Confederate President - "African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."

Do not let them run from the ugliness of it.
 
2019-09-06 03:43:08 PM  

LL316: My wish is to keep them up, but let everyone know exactly what it is they fought for.  Let's learn about what shiatbags these traitors were.


I assume you've got a thread about Confederate civil war monuments open in another tab.
 
2019-09-06 03:44:03 PM  

stoli n coke: Limey Ralph Wiggum is having a bad week.


I'd just love to be there when he has his next meeting with the Queen.  You think he's getting pilloried now?  She's got personal experience with more than a dozen PMs that she can compare him to.
 
2019-09-06 03:44:40 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: And because it only gets "better"

Boris Johnson's Irish border plan stalls after 'disastrous' EU talks


Good Christ, much like the real thing, Muppet Trump is simply incapable of doing anything right.
 
2019-09-06 03:44:51 PM  

LL316: My wish is to keep them up, but let everyone know exactly what it is they fought for.  Let's learn about what shiatbags these traitors were.  How many slaves did they own?  How many Americans did they kill?  I think tearing them down lets the racists pretend it didn't happen.  They're up, so let's rub their noses in it.

And EVERY confederate monument should have this quote by the Confederate President - "African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing."

Do not let them run from the ugliness of it.


I want to say you're in the wrong thread, but who the fark knows what the Tories are gonna do once they're out from the ECHR?
 
2019-09-06 03:47:15 PM  

DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.


Any number of things might happen if you go to the polls now. You might get a hung Parliament, then back to the polls, and whoops No Deal. Or you might get a fragile coalition, which implodes, and then whoops No Deal. Or Boris might win, and then *maniacal laughter* No Deal. Or Corbyn might win, but pseudo-constitutional delays and intrigue (which Boris has already proven himself capable of) ensure that the new government does not actually take power until 48 hours before Brexit, making it impossible to get the EU27 to sign off on it and whoops No Deal. Why wouldn't you wait another month to take all that off the table?

Plus, if you do it now, you're just going to guarantee that Team Nigel rallies around Boris as the unsullied Champion who will Protect Brexit -- whereas, if you wait a month, he's yet another big-mouth Tory who talked a big Brexit game but let it slip away again.
 
2019-09-06 03:58:53 PM  
That band aid is gonna get ripped off wether or not you are ready.
 
2019-09-06 04:01:32 PM  
I'm assuming a no confidence in HM's Government vote is fair game between now and Monday, when Parliament enters suspended animation and can't do anything until the 14th.

It comes down to how many independents will vote to topple HM's Government and how many of the "bad Tories" are still salty over getting kicked out of the Party. Basically the opposition parties have 308 votes (Boris has 299 between the DUP and the "good Tories") and, depending on how many don't vote, need between 12-14 of the regular independents and "bad Tories" to bring it all down.

There are 14 regular independents and 21 bad Tories, although a few of the regular independents are either not in regular attendance (due to health or ethical considerations) or would vote to support Johnson.

But I'd be really surprised if Corbyn isn't doing some head counting or figuring out the ten-dimensional chess aspects of putting a no confidence vote out there. Alternately, BoJo may get desperate and put forth his own confidence vote (and presumably offer forgiveness for the "bad Tories.") Also disagreement over what a caretaker government would do could be delaying things (e.g. I can't see the LibDems and "bad Tories" agreeing on PM Corbyn, since that'd make him look like the Hero of Stopping No-Deal Brexit.)

If that happens, the House of Commons has two weeks to figure something out, at which point elections are auto-called if a new government doesn't form.  The earliest that could happen, assuming there's a no confidence vote on Monday, would be October 29. (I'm guessing a new PM would run down the street to Buckingham Palace and ask to cancel or shorten the prorogation enough to secure a Brexit extension.)

Other options:
* BoJo attempts to amend the Fixed-Term Parliament Act to allow early elections just this once. Only needs a majority there but this could itself be amended to say allow 16 year olds to vote.
* The opposition does nothing, leaving Boris as very weak. Only disadvantage is that Corbyn, for all his Leave mindedness, would face a massive rebellion among HIS caucus (the Labour members in Parliament are a good deal more supportive of Remaining than is their leader) if October 31 passed and the UK left. Coming back in would be a LOT harder.

At least Jo Johnson didn't resign immediately prompting a by-election - his seat is an exurban London seat of the sort that has swung Con->Lib Dem quite a bit - the Tories had only won by single-digit margins through the 1990s and 2000s.

Of course, this depends on how well Johnson can play out the clock until October 31.
 
2019-09-06 04:13:24 PM  

Subtonic: I continue to care about this stupid island's politics just barely enough to register my near total lack of interest on Fark.com.


Thanks for letting us know. Now you can fark off back to whatever MAGAt hole you oozed out of.
 
2019-09-06 04:15:38 PM  

dywed88: DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.

The opposition wants an election. Once they ensure that Boris can't force the timing to be after the Brexit deadline.


Johnson doesn't want to have to go to Brussels and request an extension. That'd make him look less Brexity and mean lost Tory support to the Brexit Party.

But if he resigned there's a chance the opposition could form a caretaker government. Corbyn of course wants to lead said caretaker government, whose only tasks would be to (1) get a Brexit extension and (2) call early elections. But then that'd portray Corbyn as the Hero of Stopping No-Deal, which other opposition parties (LibDems especially) don't want. For the same reason, naming one of the "bad Tories", a LibDem, or the Green as PM of a multi-party coalition would mean *they* look like the Hero of Stopping No-Deal. (SNP I suppose don't want to do it on principle.) I imagine someone who's going to stand down at the next election might be agreeable and when October 25-27 comes along, things that are unacceptable to the anti-hard Brexit crowd might be acceptable then.

If an actual election is scheduled before 31 October, I suspect the EU will grant their extension with a little room for New!Parliament to actually agree on something.

Johnson is trying to play out the clock here. It doesn't matter if he loses every vote - if the opposition cannot unite to win a vote, then he gets to remain (heh) as PM. Whether his end goal is a no-deal Brexit or a last-minute concession or two at  10pm on the 30th, it's irrelevant.

Even if he lost a NC vote on Monday, the earliest an election could be was October 29.
 
2019-09-06 04:17:59 PM  

stpickrell: I'm assuming a no confidence in HM's Government vote is fair game between now and Monday, when Parliament enters suspended animation and can't do anything until the 14th.


Doubt it, unless Boris calls a vote of confidence on himself, which may be the one vote he wins when the opposition votes for him. The opposition doesn't want elections until they have the extension. Once the extension is in had, Corbyn will drop a no-confidence motion and off we go. Two wins: One, they can herd Johnson until they get the extension, Two, half the seats become Tory vs. Brexit party. A MAJOR part of this effort by Johnson is to attempt to neuter what he perceives as his biggest threat, the Brexit party.

They don't want the election now because they don't trust Boris to call it as promised. He says October 15th, they vote for it, he then say "I meant the 31st" and the UK leaves without a deal. So, he's not getting it. Plus, the one promise he swore was "We will leave by October 31st" and making him eat that is good politics for Not-Tory.

(Oh, what happens if they don't get the extension? If it gets down to leave with no deal or don't leave, I think don't leave has the votes. But that won't happen until it is literally that choice - if there's any chance of an extension, they won't revoke.)
 
2019-09-06 04:18:22 PM  

DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.


Boris gets to schedule the election.  If he schedules it after the deadline, he can crash out regardless of what Parliament says
 
2019-09-06 04:22:35 PM  
Of course they are assuming the EU will give them yet another delay.  They may be making an ass out of you and me with that assumption.
 
2019-09-06 04:24:14 PM  

pkjun: DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.

Any number of things might happen if you go to the polls now. You might get a hung Parliament, then back to the polls, and whoops No Deal. Or you might get a fragile coalition, which implodes, and then whoops No Deal. Or Boris might win, and then *maniacal laughter* No Deal. Or Corbyn might win, but pseudo-constitutional delays and intrigue (which Boris has already proven himself capable of) ensure that the new government does not actually take power until 48 hours before Brexit, making it impossible to get the EU27 to sign off on it and whoops No Deal. Why wouldn't you wait another month to take all that off the table?

Plus, if you do it now, you're just going to guarantee that Team Nigel rallies around Boris as the unsullied Champion who will Protect Brexit -- whereas, if you wait a month, he's yet another big-mouth Tory who talked a big Brexit game but let it slip away again.


The operative phrase there is "No Deal".  Which is what the UK's going to get, whether their PM is Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn, or Lord Buckethead.  All this is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
2019-09-06 04:27:36 PM  

gremlin79: DivByZero: I don't claim to have any insight into UK politics, and I'm trying to make sense of the strategy of avoiding an election. Assuming Labour can win, wouldn't that sweep both Boris Johnson and the Tories out of power? Or is this because Labour feels they'll not be able to build a strong enough coalition to stop them? 

There's some nuance I'm not grasping here.

Boris gets to schedule the election.  If he schedules it after the deadline, he can crash out regardless of what Parliament says


This is all clock management just like an NFL game. Boris is trying to make sure the opposition doesn't get a chance to score before time runs out.  To do that he's making some plays that don't make sense on the surface.
 
2019-09-06 04:28:27 PM  

Geotpf: Of course they are assuming the EU will give them yet another delay.  They may be making an ass out of you and me with that assumption.


There is absolutely no reason to think the EU wouldn't give them the extension. The EU doesn't want Brexit and the really don't want a no deal Brexit.

The order of things the EU prefers:

No Brexit
Deal Brexit
No deal Brexit
Boris's demand for Brexit but the border to be left wide open effectively giving the UK full access to the common market with none of the obligations or oversight that comes with it
 
2019-09-06 04:34:33 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: stpickrell: I'm assuming a no confidence in HM's Government vote is fair game between now and Monday, when Parliament enters suspended animation and can't do anything until the 14th.

Doubt it, unless Boris calls a vote of confidence on himself, which may be the one vote he wins when the opposition votes for him. The opposition doesn't want elections until they have the extension. Once the extension is in had, Corbyn will drop a no-confidence motion and off we go. Two wins: One, they can herd Johnson until they get the extension, Two, half the seats become Tory vs. Brexit party. A MAJOR part of this effort by Johnson is to attempt to neuter what he perceives as his biggest threat, the Brexit party.

They don't want the election now because they don't trust Boris to call it as promised. He says October 15th, they vote for it, he then say "I meant the 31st" and the UK leaves without a deal. So, he's not getting it. Plus, the one promise he swore was "We will leave by October 31st" and making him eat that is good politics for Not-Tory.

(Oh, what happens if they don't get the extension? If it gets down to leave with no deal or don't leave, I think don't leave has the votes. But that won't happen until it is literally that choice - if there's any chance of an extension, they won't revoke.)


Fair enough. Boris doesn't want to be PM Went-To-Brussels, and the various opposition leaders don't want each other to be seen as St. Defeated-No-Deal-Brexit.

Oddly enough, in many ways, Johnson doesn't want a revoke + elections combo as that means (as you say) half the seats become Tory vs. Brexit, and the fury of the Leavers will be legendary (there's some Leavers in Labour, both hard-left Corbynites who think the EU is a project of liberal fascism and some older folks who like socialism but only for White people.) The LibDems would continue to hoover up the "we really want to remain" votes, as well.

The next potential roadblock is when the Benn bill is either not given assent b/c the Queen's ministers (i.e. Boris) advise against signing it - in that case, the House of Commons would almost have to toss Johnson out (but can't until they come back on the 14th.)

Then, will the EU grant the extension? If not, that really forces everyone's hands on the 14th. If an election is actually scheduled, I think it'd happen, though.
 
2019-09-06 04:37:44 PM  

21-7-b: [i.guim.co.uk image 300x180]

if only there had been some sign


Fark user imageView Full Size
Fark user imageView Full Size


awfully brave for a kid to go with the bruce vilanch look
 
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