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(Boing Boing)   Micro$soft has joined the legion of manufacturers opposing Right To Repair. iFixit's Surface Laptop teardown (repairability score=0/10) should have told you so   (boingboing.net) divider line
    More: Obvious, Affiliate marketing, iFixit's Repair Radio, Privacy policy, use of dirty tricks, tax proposal, STEM education, Microsoft support, Amazon Services LLC Associates Program  
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1414 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Apr 2019 at 4:22 AM (4 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



32 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
4 days ago  
Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?
 
4 days ago  

syrynxx: Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?


They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.
 
4 days ago  

syrynxx: Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?


My employer in the UK has just bought around 3000 of them for my office alone and we have multiple offices all over the UK, so yeah I'd say it's a pretty safe bet they do - Surface Pro 2 I believe.

Not a huge fan of it but it's free and it allows me to work from home when I want to, so I have no real issues with it.
 
4 days ago  
I'm not well versed on this issue, but it seems to me that:
1. You open the case, you void the warranty.
2. I don't know if there's a law that requires companies to provide replacement parts for their products but I doubt it.
3. If a replacement part is proprietary and a third party company makes one that's got to violate a patent or copyright.
4. If consumers want high-tech products that are thin and light then be prepared for them to be disposable because making cases and other parts replaceable requires screw of some sort, and that kind of mounting results in larger sizes and more weight.
5. "You can't have everything, where would you put it?" - Steven Wright
 
4 days ago  

syrynxx: Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?


Having wanted a convertible for a while, I tried a few traditional fold-over touchscreen laptop formats (like the Lenovo Yoga) and found them too bulky and noisy for my liking.
Finally succumbed and put down the 1400€ for a Pro 6. It's a great little piece of kit if you want something that's super mobile (like a tablet), yet can handle some actual work tasks beyond dicking around on the internet. It handles photo editing like a snap and does some light video stuff as well.

So far, I like it a lot. It's great for what it is and is unrivalled in its form factor - if the form factor is what you're after.
Don't buy it if you just need a laptop.
 
4 days ago  

Unscratchable_Itch: I'm not well versed on this issue, but it seems to me that:
1. You open the case, you void the warranty.
2. I don't know if there's a law that requires companies to provide replacement parts for their products but I doubt it.
3. If a replacement part is proprietary and a third party company makes one that's got to violate a patent or copyright.
4. If consumers want high-tech products that are thin and light then be prepared for them to be disposable because making cases and other parts replaceable requires screw of some sort, and that kind of mounting results in larger sizes and more weight.
5. "You can't have everything, where would you put it?" - Steven Wright


The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves. Many companies attempt to scare their customers by plastering "warranty void if removed" stickers all over their devices. But these stickers are unenforceable. More importantly, they're illegal.

The Right to Repair would go a step further, and force companies to give consumers access to
the manuals and diagnostic tools the dealers use, as well as completely unrestrict the ability to unlock and jailbreak the software on our devices.

So while you still have the ability to fix your devices yourself, or have it repaired by a 3rd party under Magnuson-Moss, you have to do it through a reverse-engineering standpoint. Unlocking/Jailbreaking is another subject entirely. Cell Phone providers were scared enough by just the threat of the FTC coming down on them with locked devices that just about all of them now have a way to unlock their phones after you pay them off. But that's just phones.
 
4 days ago  

GrailOfThunder: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves.


Really?   Which section?

Care to quote the Act?
 
4 days ago  
Rep. Jeff Morris told iFixit Repair Radio that national Right to Repair legislation was killed by Microsoft, in a piece of horse trading that saw Microsoft backing funding for STEM education in exchange for Right to Repair (and unrelated privacy rules) dying

Microsoft was opposed to STEM funding?  That's like Google being opposed to more internet bandwidth, or Glenn Beck being opposed to more derp.

So Microsoft caved and ALLOWED MORE STEM FUNDING?

Why in the name of all that's holy was Microsoft in charge of this to begin with?

What a farking country.
 
4 days ago  

scanman61: GrailOfThunder: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves.

Really?   Which section?

Care to quote the Act?


https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/f​t​c-warranty-warning/

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press​-​releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-compa​nies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-cov​erage

FTC Gives Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo 30 Days to Get Rid of Illegal Warranty-Void-if-Removed Stickers

How Sony, Microsoft, and Other Gadget Makers Violate Federal Warranty Law

Note: I'm commenting on what the FTC themselves have said, I haven't read the complete law itself (as I probably wouldn't understand half of it anyway).. But if you want it, you can find it at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te​x​t/15/chapter-50
 
4 days ago  

Marcus Aurelius: Rep. Jeff Morris told iFixit Repair Radio that national Right to Repair legislation was killed by Microsoft, in a piece of horse trading that saw Microsoft backing funding for STEM education in exchange for Right to Repair (and unrelated privacy rules) dying

Microsoft was opposed to STEM funding?  That's like Google being opposed to more internet bandwidth, or Glenn Beck being opposed to more derp.

So Microsoft caved and ALLOWED MORE STEM FUNDING?

Why in the name of all that's holy was Microsoft in charge of this to begin with?

What a farking country.


They likely had no opinion before and traded their support (which is to say they leaned on their Congress critters to support stem funding or they would publicize that they didn't) for killing the bill.  That's a guess, but I'd bet a dollar.
 
4 days ago  

GrailOfThunder: scanman61: GrailOfThunder: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves.

Really?   Which section?

Care to quote the Act?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ft​c-warranty-warning/

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-​releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-compa​nies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-cov​erage

FTC Gives Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo 30 Days to Get Rid of Illegal Warranty-Void-if-Removed Stickers

How Sony, Microsoft, and Other Gadget Makers Violate Federal Warranty Law

Note: I'm commenting on what the FTC themselves have said, I haven't read the complete law itself (as I probably wouldn't understand half of it anyway).. But if you want it, you can find it at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/tex​t/15/chapter-50


Still didn't see anything about maintaining warranty after you've modified a product.
 
4 days ago  

scanman61: GrailOfThunder: scanman61: GrailOfThunder: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves.

Really?   Which section?

Care to quote the Act?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ft​c-warranty-warning/

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-​releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-compa​nies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-cov​erage

FTC Gives Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo 30 Days to Get Rid of Illegal Warranty-Void-if-Removed Stickers

How Sony, Microsoft, and Other Gadget Makers Violate Federal Warranty Law

Note: I'm commenting on what the FTC themselves have said, I haven't read the complete law itself (as I probably wouldn't understand half of it anyway).. But if you want it, you can find it at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/tex​t/15/chapter-50

Still didn't see anything about maintaining warranty after you've modified a product.


"The letters warn that FTC staff has concerns about the companies' statements that consumers must use specified parts or service providers to keep their warranties intact. Unless warrantors provide the parts or services for free or receive a waiver from the FTC, such statements generally are prohibited by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, a law that governs consumer product warranties. Similarly, such statements may be deceptive under the FTC Act."
 
4 days ago  

EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.


I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.
 
4 days ago  

bisi: syrynxx: Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?

Having wanted a convertible for a while, I tried a few traditional fold-over touchscreen laptop formats (like the Lenovo Yoga) and found them too bulky and noisy for my liking.
Finally succumbed and put down the 1400€ for a Pro 6. It's a great little piece of kit if you want something that's super mobile (like a tablet), yet can handle some actual work tasks beyond dicking around on the internet. It handles photo editing like a snap and does some light video stuff as well.

So far, I like it a lot. It's great for what it is and is unrivalled in its form factor - if the form factor is what you're after.
Don't buy it if you just need a laptop.


I'm still rocking my first generation Surface. The only thing I've tried to throw at it that it struggled with so far is mobile app development with Visual Studio, and that's pretty much all down to the Android emulation environment being such a resource hog.
 
4 days ago  

PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.


As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.
 
4 days ago  

Windle Poons: Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.


That's what i was figuring. Also, MS telling people that they'd stop selling a product if the act passes isn't necessarily them being against the act, it's them saying that there is no reason for them to continue making the product for business reasons.
Remember, MS still lets you build a computer out of parts salvaged from the curb, and they're very big on compatibility via generic drivers. It's hard to hate on them.
 
4 days ago  

xalres: I'm still rocking my first generation Surface. The only thing I've tried to throw at it that it struggled with so far is mobile app development with Visual Studio, and that's pretty much all down to the Android emulation environment being such a resource hog.


They do seem to be well made. I hope for mine to last, what with no repairs being possible and all.
 
4 days ago  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
4 days ago  

Windle Poons: PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.

As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.


Given this argument, I think that people should still have the right to repair, but if they fark it up, it is on them. However, if this is the case the manufacturer needs to be responsible for free repairs for much longer than 30 days or whatever.
 
4 days ago  

gbv23: [i.imgur.com image 600x479]


Homer Simpson and Bill Gates buy out
Youtube H27rfr59RiE
 
4 days ago  

syrynxx: Threatening not to sell Surface tablets? Do they still make those?


I'm typing this on a Surface Pr so I'm really getting a kick etc.

/Love it. Great machine, hardware and OS. And it spends every day being thrown into a squishy backpack and being thrown around without complaining.
 
4 days ago  
Of course that would have come over better had I been able to spell Pro correctly....
 
4 days ago  

phimuskapsi: Windle Poons: PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.

As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.

Given this argument, I think that people should still have the right to repair, but if they fark it up, it is on them. However, if this is the case the manufacturer needs to be responsible for free repairs for much longer than 30 days or whatever.


Another point in favor of right to return is that if all manufacturers are held to the same standard, it would remove the last line of my reply (bolded).

My personal opinion is that the battery needs to be replaceable. Under regular circumstances that is your component with the shortest lifespan.
 
3 days ago  
 
3 days ago  
Oh boy, subby, that $ in Microsoft is almost as fresh and funny as whomever keeps submitting "Career Suicide Squad" headlines to the Entertainment tab.
 
3 days ago  

Teufelaffe: Oh boy, subby, that $ in Microsoft is almost as fresh and funny as whomever keeps submitting "Career Suicide Squad" headlines to the Entertainment tab.


I like how subby managed to fark it up by leaving in the 's' that the $ is supposed to substitute.
 
3 days ago  

Windle Poons: phimuskapsi: Windle Poons: PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.

As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.

Given this argument, I think that people should still have the right to repair, but if they fark it up, it is on them. However, if this is the case the manufacturer needs to be responsible for free repairs for much longer than 30 days or whatever.

Another point in favor of right to return is that if all manufacturers are held to the same standard, it would remove the last line of my reply (bolded).

My personal opinion is that the battery needs to be replaceable. Under regular circumstances that is your component with the shortest lifespan.


Yeah fark this whole non-replaceable battery trend right in it's ear, and fark apple too for making it the norm.
It's bad for consumers and it's really bad for the environment.
 
3 days ago  

Neondistraction: Windle Poons: phimuskapsi: Windle Poons: PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.

As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.

Given this argument, I think that people should still have the right to repair, but if they fark it up, it is on them. However, if this is the case the manufacturer needs to be responsible for free repairs for much longer than 30 days or whatever.

Another point in favor of right to return is that if all manufacturers are held to the same standard, it would remove the last line of my reply (bolded).

My personal opinion is that the battery needs to be replaceable. Under regular circumstances that is your component with the shortest lifespan.

Yeah fark this whole non-replaceable battery trend right in it's ear, and fark apple too for making it the norm.
It's bad for consumers and it's really bad for the environment.


Apple secures batteries with quick release glue strips.

It's Microsoft that created a laptop design where it is literally impossible to replace the battery without destroying the whole device.

It's clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be repaired because it's a completely sealed device. There aren't even any screws to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from the metal chassis. That's never going back together.

The inner metal shield is also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this is probably not going to be reassembled.

The motherboard unsurprisingly contains the SSD and RAM, which are soldered in place. So, no upgrades here. surface Only after taking the motherboard completely out of the case can you access the battery.

Replacing a defective or worn out battery is one of the most common repairs on laptops, but it's really not feasible here. Even if the case could be opened without destroying it, you have to take everything out to access the battery. You're likely to break more things in the process. Seeing as they needed to destroy the laptop to take it apart.
 
3 days ago  

BullBearMS: Neondistraction: Windle Poons: phimuskapsi: Windle Poons: PIP_the_TROLL: EvilEgg: They are actually pretty good quality hardware. But fark them for encouraging a disposable culture.

I'm not for the disposable thing either, but there are recycling options available - especially for the expensive materials these Surfaces are made from.

As to the specific question at hand, I wonder if it's that they designed the device to not be repairable by lay-techs (in that case, fark them) or if the complexity of the design (fitting so much into such a small form-factor, cooling issues, etc.) makes it impractical for that kind of repair.

As a veteran of the industry, I can confidently say option #2 is the reason.

Design wants a slim form factor, video wants a big screen, audio needs great bass, power wants a big battery, reliability needs durability, EE needs to keep it cool, etc. etc. That cannot be done in a way that is easy to repair without compromises that would make the device less competitive.

Given this argument, I think that people should still have the right to repair, but if they fark it up, it is on them. However, if this is the case the manufacturer needs to be responsible for free repairs for much longer than 30 days or whatever.

Another point in favor of right to return is that if all manufacturers are held to the same standard, it would remove the last line of my reply (bolded).

My personal opinion is that the battery needs to be replaceable. Under regular circumstances that is your component with the shortest lifespan.

Yeah fark this whole non-replaceable battery trend right in it's ear, and fark apple too for making it the norm.
It's bad for consumers and it's really bad for the environment.

Apple secures batteries with quick release glue strips.

It's Microsoft that created a laptop design where it is literally impossible to replace the battery without destroying the whole device.

It's clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be repaired because it's a completely sealed device. There aren't even any screws to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from the metal chassis. That's never going back together.

The inner metal shield is also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this is probably not going to be reassembled.

The motherboard unsurprisingly contains the SSD and RAM, which are soldered in place. So, no upgrades here. surface Only after taking the motherboard completely out of the case can you access the battery.

Replacing a defective or worn out battery is one of the most common repairs on laptops, but it's really not feasible here. Even if the case could be opened without destroying it, you have to take everything out to access the battery. You're likely to break more things in the process. Seeing as they needed to destroy the laptop to take it apart.


Ok yeah, that's worse than what apple does.  But they still started the trend.  Much like Cher started the god-awful trend of cranking up the auto tune.
 
3 days ago  

GrailOfThunder: scanman61: GrailOfThunder: scanman6h1: GrailOfThunder: The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which goes way back to 1975, forbids companies from voiding warranties on their products just because the owner modified or repaired said product themselves.

Really?   Which section?

Care to quote the Act?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/ft​c-warranty-warning/

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-​releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-compa​nies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-cov​erage

FTC Gives Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo 30 Days to Get Rid of Illegal Warranty-Void-if-Removed Stickers

How Sony, Microsoft, and Other Gadget Makers Violate Federal Warranty Law

Note: I'm commenting on what the FTC themselves have said, I haven't read the complete law itself (as I probably wouldn't understand half of it anyway).. But if you want it, you can find it at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/tex​t/15/chapter-50

Still didn't see anything about maintaining warranty after you've modified a product.

"The letters warn that FTC staff has concerns about the companies' statements that consumers must use specified parts or service providers to keep their warranties intact. Unless warrantors provide the parts or services for free or receive a waiver from the FTC, such statements generally are prohibited by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, a law that governs consumer product warranties. Similarly, such statements may be deceptive under the FTC Act."


Ok, I guess you and I have a different definition of "modified".

I've been dealing with Mag-Moss for a long time from the auto repair side.  Mag-Moss covers "like kind" replacement parts (Chevy can't void your engine warranty because you used a Fram oil filter) but if you "modify" the device then the warranty is kaput.
 
3 days ago  
Um, not to be overly cynical, but, this article is literally "we talked to a guy that heard, from the 'word on the street', that Microsoft may have convinced folks in the House Rules committee to not present a bill."

No evidence to any of what he's saying - none at all. He even says that in the interview - from the original article:

In an interview on iFixit's Repair Radio, Morris, who was the original sponsor of the bill last year, claimed that "word on the street" was that big tech companies, specifically Microsoft, "marshaled forces to keep the bill from moving out of the House Rules committee."

Rep. Morris further claimed that, while he didn't see the "smoking gun," "there was a tax proposal here...to pay for STEM education." Furthermore, "in exchange for Microsoft support[ing that tax,] having Right to Repair die..." was a condition, as well as another privacy policy Microsoft wanted to advance.


This is as valid as me saying that I once heard that Glenn Beck raped and killed a woman in 1990. Sure, I didn't see him do it, and, sure, I don't have any evidence, but, 'word on the street' says he did it, and I've seen a few people say that they've seen something about it.

Seriously, watch the interview.

The whole article's meant to be a support pitch for U.S. PIRG - something with which I agree, mind you - but it's slanted all to hell, so it's hard to figure out if I'm looking at anything other than hearsay.
 
3 days ago  

BullBearMS: The Microsoft Surface line not only has reliability issues...
Consumer Reports has pulled its recommended rating from Microsoft laptops based on reliability ratings from surveys. The ratings service found that 25 percent of Microsoft laptops and tablets will give owners problems by the end of the second year of ownership.
It also has repairability issues when the inevitable happens.
According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn't repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a "glue-filled monstrosity." Ouch. That's never happened before. The lowers scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro


Mac products are barely repairable as well. Even their desktop machines are pretty much disposable.
 
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