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(gHacks)   Another day, another problem with Windows 10 updates   (ghacks.net) divider line
    More: Obvious, Windows Update, Microsoft Windows, Windows 7, Windows Vista, recent updates, Windows Server 2008, new known issues, operating systems  
•       •       •

1368 clicks; posted to Geek » on 15 Apr 2019 at 8:22 PM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2019-04-15 08:33:11 PM  
After the most recent updates, my Win10 laptop has picked up the annoying habit of disabling the wi-fi adapter at random and setting it to manual start. Anyone else notice something similar?
 
2019-04-15 08:34:15 PM  
with certain antivirus solutions installed

The Microsoft hate is strong this month on Fark... Who's getting the kickbacks?

Also, "ghacks" about page is hysterical..

After putting up advertisement accidentally on the site just to see how it would go, Martin realized that Ghacks had the potential to become a full time job.
 
2019-04-15 08:47:05 PM  
Whatever "long term thinker" at microsoft decided to force restarts regardless of the user's choice needs to have their work computer on an hourly restart schedule...

It'd only be fair
 
2019-04-15 08:51:57 PM  
"WAHHH OUR COMPUTERS REBOOT THEMSELVES, WINDOWS IS SO BROKEN"

Microsoft: "Fine, we'll make updates optional again."

"WAHH OUR UNPATCHED COMPUTERS ARE LOUSY WITH VIRUSES, WINDOWS IS SO BROKEN"
 
2019-04-15 08:53:47 PM  
That's why I don't permit updates.

As dumb as that may be, I'll be damned if I'll permit my OS to play stupid games with me.

That's SUPPOSED to be the task of the viruses!
 
2019-04-15 09:00:35 PM  

Somaticasual: Whatever "long term thinker" at microsoft decided to force restarts regardless of the user's choice needs to have their work computer on an hourly restart schedule...

It'd only be fair


Any employer that has an IT Dept. worth a dime will have their computers managed, with updates rolled out on IT's schedule (not Microsoft's) and notices before reboots that give the user the option of delaying the reboot.
 
2019-04-15 09:15:12 PM  

fortheloveofgod: Somaticasual: Whatever "long term thinker" at microsoft decided to force restarts regardless of the user's choice needs to have their work computer on an hourly restart schedule...

It'd only be fair

Any employer that has an IT Dept. worth a dime will have their computers managed, with updates rolled out on IT's schedule (not Microsoft's) and notices before reboots that give the user the option of delaying the reboot.


Granted, I believe the pro/enterprise windows does still have update management.

But, they've systematically stripped it out of windows 10 home, even going so far as to close loopholes people had found (like setting the wifi to metered, or using registry hacks).

I understand updates are important, but it's a little irritating to come back to the system to find that it has automatically restarted 3 days in a row, the last being at about noon. Microsoft could have easily made it opt-out in lieu of forcing the updates
 
2019-04-15 09:24:03 PM  
Um, I'm not sure what W7 and W8.1 have to do with anything.
sent from my pos Compaq running ME on dial-up.
 
2019-04-15 09:31:04 PM  
One update affects Windows 7 and 8/8.1, and older Server versions.
One update affects Windows 10 using clustered server volumes.

Neither of these things affect the normal user (well maybe the last bastion of 7/8 users). 

Carry on, nothing to see here.
 
2019-04-15 09:39:55 PM  
I only care about one update:

FIX
THE
FARKING
      FILE ASSOCIATIONS!
 
2019-04-15 09:47:46 PM  

I Like Bread: "WAHHH OUR COMPUTERS REBOOT THEMSELVES, WINDOWS IS SO BROKEN"

Microsoft: "Fine, we'll make updates optional again."

"WAHH OUR UNPATCHED COMPUTERS ARE LOUSY WITH VIRUSES, WINDOWS IS SO BROKEN"


Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?
 
2019-04-15 10:06:35 PM  

Jensaarai: After the most recent updates, my Win10 laptop has picked up the annoying habit of disabling the wi-fi adapter at random and setting it to manual start. Anyone else notice something similar?


Mine has stopped maintaining the file view in folders. It's set to be Large icons and switches randomly to Medium icons, details, and list for my Documents folder and any subsequent folders on the same drive. The second hard drive where the OS is not installed is not affected.

Weird and annoying, no wi-fi issues....yet.
 
2019-04-15 10:12:17 PM  
When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.
 
2019-04-15 10:40:45 PM  

fortheloveofgod: Somaticasual: Whatever "long term thinker" at microsoft decided to force restarts regardless of the user's choice needs to have their work computer on an hourly restart schedule...

It'd only be fair

Any employer that has an IT Dept. worth a dime will have their computers managed, with updates rolled out on IT's schedule (not Microsoft's) and notices before reboots that give the user the option of delaying the reboot.


Yeah, well I work for a multimillion dollar company.
They have a shot it department.
They make software.
They buy shiatware.
Their entire portfolio is a fat market share of software.

I don't know who to blame whem my system bricks. Which it does. All the time.

When I need to use a computer off work, i use the one I built.

Get on, get off (easy there, sparky) and go out and play.

I get paid to drive a shiatwagon on the information highway, but my personal vehicle is spiffy.
 
2019-04-15 11:15:00 PM  

OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.


Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.
 
2019-04-15 11:20:31 PM  

Somaticasual: Whatever "long term thinker" at microsoft decided to force restarts regardless of the user's choice needs to have their work computer on an hourly restart schedule...

It'd only be fair


It's stupid easy to configure:
img.fark.netView Full Size


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 11:24:52 PM  

phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.


Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..
 
2019-04-15 11:44:06 PM  
Well, I'm not using 7, 8.1, or an anti-virus program made in Poland so I'm not worried. Any issues I've had with 10 since it came out have been related to Visual Studio, not the OS. (thinks a second..) Yeah, that's it.
 
2019-04-16 12:13:27 AM  
styckx

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!

I have to agree, they got serious about a solution and it is very robust.
 
2019-04-16 12:43:13 AM  

styckx: phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..


I've gotten rid of all the tools. I had hung on to RogueKiller and MBAM, but their free versions constantly barrage you with notifications asking to upgrade. It makes me sad to see them fall, they were the last of the good free ones. Every single AV product ends up the same. A bloated mess.
 
2019-04-16 01:08:49 AM  

phimuskapsi: styckx: phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..

I've gotten rid of all the tools. I had hung on to RogueKiller and MBAM, but their free versions constantly barrage you with notifications asking to upgrade. It makes me sad to see them fall, they were the last of the good free ones. Every single AV product ends up the same. A bloated mess.


The last real good bare bones one was Adwcleaner, then MalwareBytes bought it and I stopped using it as MWB is dead set on suckering users into their premium services.
 
2019-04-16 01:11:27 AM  

styckx: phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..


Is that what they're calling Security Essentials now?  If so I agree completely.  Credit where it's due, they knocked that one out of the park.
 
2019-04-16 01:16:15 AM  

Neondistraction: styckx: phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..

Is that what they're calling Security Essentials now?  If so I agree completely.  Credit where it's due, they knocked that one out of the park.


I honestly at this point don't even think they call it Windows Defender anymore it's just what we refer to it as. They sort of phased out naming it anything at this point. It's just hard baked into the OS... But yes it's what started out as Security Essentials, morphed into Defender, and now is just seamlessly baked into the OS
 
2019-04-16 01:19:32 AM  

Neondistraction: Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?


Ha ha, you're right. Microsoft will probably NEVER make security updates optional ever again, no matter how many armchair gurus piss and moan about needing to be babysat as if it's some sort of design flaw.
 
2019-04-16 01:25:10 AM  

I Like Bread: Neondistraction: Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?

Ha ha, you're right. Microsoft will probably NEVER make security updates optional ever again, no matter how many armchair gurus piss and moan about needing to be babysat as if it's some sort of design flaw.


I was more referring to these supposed hoards of people complaining about getting a virus because their PCs aren't patched.
 
2019-04-16 02:16:55 AM  

styckx: phimuskapsi: styckx: phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!  It started out as a joke and is now literally one of the only things most people need on their PC for protection outside of Adblock or uBlock Origin for their browser.   There is ZERO reason for Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, MalwareBytes, you name it..  It's low resources and simply just works.. Also like you said, it's updated multiple times a day at this point.  Defender alone has slowly but surely put the entire "PC threat" market in check..

I've gotten rid of all the tools. I had hung on to RogueKiller and MBAM, but their free versions constantly barrage you with notifications asking to upgrade. It makes me sad to see them fall, they were the last of the good free ones. Every single AV product ends up the same. A bloated mess.

The last real good bare bones one was Adwcleaner, then MalwareBytes bought it and I stopped using it as MWB is dead set on suckering users into their premium services.


Combofix FTW - except it looks like it'll never be upgraded for W10. Never used a better tool to rescue some serious malware infections - infections that Norton and the like allowed to happen.

Today I removed Avast from a customer's computer because five minutes after Windows splash screen, it still hadn't produced a usable desktop. Uninstall and 80 seconds from splash to desktop. "We're sorry to see you go. Care to tell us why? YES - YOUR BLOATED PIECE OF CRAP CRIPPLED MY COMPUTER!"
 
2019-04-16 03:00:33 AM  

Neondistraction: I Like Bread: Neondistraction: Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?

Ha ha, you're right. Microsoft will probably NEVER make security updates optional ever again, no matter how many armchair gurus piss and moan about needing to be babysat as if it's some sort of design flaw.

I was more referring to these supposed hoards of people complaining about getting a virus because their PCs aren't patched.


Oh man, so you're too young to even remember the days of Windows pre-Vista and the great Windows/Mac/Linux virus debate? I can't even imagine what that's like. Thank the gods those days are over, though. May they never return.
 
2019-04-16 03:54:54 AM  

I Like Bread: Neondistraction: I Like Bread: Neondistraction: Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?

Ha ha, you're right. Microsoft will probably NEVER make security updates optional ever again, no matter how many armchair gurus piss and moan about needing to be babysat as if it's some sort of design flaw.

I was more referring to these supposed hoards of people complaining about getting a virus because their PCs aren't patched.

Oh man, so you're too young to even remember the days of Windows pre-Vista and the great Windows/Mac/Linux virus debate? I can't even imagine what that's like. Thank the gods those days are over, though. May they never return.


Remember peak Limewire where people were dumb enough to download a full copy of Half Life 2 dropping in at a whopping 54mb and then wonder why their computer was raped without lube when they ran it? Pre-Vista days where an hilarious cluster fark across the board
 
2019-04-16 05:23:40 AM  

Jensaarai: After the most recent updates, my Win10 laptop has picked up the annoying habit of disabling the wi-fi adapter at random and setting it to manual start. Anyone else notice something similar?


Mrs Coast and I both had to deal with that yesterday.  So far it's behaving.
 
2019-04-16 05:57:07 AM  
I work remotely and connect to my firm via VPN/remote desktop.  In my case, my remote desktop is a virtual machine running on one of our Win10 servers.  Since the April patch, connecting has become a PITA.  Disconnecting, even for an hour during lunch, results in the VM session locking up, requiring one of the admins to restart the session (fortunately, I never disconnect with unsaved work).

They can't figure out what's going on, so my only two workarounds now are to 1) don't disconnect during lunch, and 2) reboot the VM at the end of the workday, and finish the restart when I connect the following morning.
 
2019-04-16 10:31:32 AM  
HAHAHAHA WINDOWS 10
 
2019-04-16 11:37:46 AM  
Thank Jeebus that no other OS platforms have had update issues, ever...
 
2019-04-16 12:10:06 PM  

phimuskapsi: OlderGuy: When 10 came out, I cloned the drives on my 7 machines and installed 10 on the clones.. run them every 6 months for a week to allow updates, hoping that MS would bring 10 out of Beta..  they haven't.  If they ever  come out with a finished product, I would look at it. As is, 7 works well and will continue to do so..  XP still works.  Keep in mind that hackers and malware producers are not concentrating on obsolete systems, and while 7, XP, and previous systems dealt with the computer alone, 10 has to work with multiple devices, all interconnected... hence the issues. Difficult to cover all the bases, so to speak...  Win10 is a swiss army knife.

Boy, does that username check out.

The reason you don't hear about mass infections anymore is because with Windows 10 updates functioning as a SaaS 0-day exploits are harder and harder to exploit. I think the defender service updates 4 or 5 times a day now.


???     Who mentioned mass infections ?   What I said is that Win10 is designed to be an all- in- one system, and the coding needs to be extremely complex to accomplish the designed goals.  Unplanned consequences from line interactions seem to be the problem.. Didn't have that problem with previous systems.  Apple is only dealing with iStuff, MS is dealing with everything.. there will be bugs.  I won't go to 10 until either the bugs are worked out or a new OS for PCs comes out. Add in that there are an increasing number of people that just love to screw stuff up for S&G.. overcomplication = more to mess with..  nope, not going there.  Win10, by design, is a CF... MS needs to go back to a basic OS that just works.  Forget all of the bells and whistles.
 
2019-04-16 01:24:46 PM  

OlderGuy: Apple is only dealing with iStuff, MS is dealing with everything.. there will be bugs.  I won't go to 10 until either the bugs are worked out or a new OS for PCs comes out.


Until you actually come up with a practical example you are just assuming that it is broken. It's not. It's the most stable version of Windows ever, and I've had precisely 0 'bugs' (whatever those are in your mind). What magical OS are you waiting for? Windows 10 isn't going anywhere, Linux desktop is hot garbage, your other option is OSX.

Win10, by design, is a CF... MS needs to go back to a basic OS that just works.  Forget all of the bells and whistles.

A CF? What does that even mean? Forget all the bells and whistles? How old are you? 70? 80?
 
2019-04-16 02:52:11 PM  

Random Anonymous Blackmail: styckx

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!

I have to agree, they got serious about a solution and it is very robust.


you know what I run for the best desktop anti-virus/anti-maleware? Linux
https://www.howtogeek.com/135392/htg-​e​xplains-why-you-dont-need-an-antivirus​-on-linux-and-when-you-do/
 
2019-04-16 03:41:15 PM  

I Like Bread: Neondistraction: I Like Bread: Neondistraction: Nice strawmen you have there.  Were they included in the latest update?

Ha ha, you're right. Microsoft will probably NEVER make security updates optional ever again, no matter how many armchair gurus piss and moan about needing to be babysat as if it's some sort of design flaw.

I was more referring to these supposed hoards of people complaining about getting a virus because their PCs aren't patched.

Oh man, so you're too young to even remember the days of Windows pre-Vista and the great Windows/Mac/Linux virus debate? I can't even imagine what that's like. Thank the gods those days are over, though. May they never return.


Nope, my first PC was a 386.  33mhz, 4 MB of ram, it was a beast.
And that was a silly argument anyway.  Sure Microsoft could have done better security wise, but the main reason there weren't mac viruses was because at their peak they only made up 10% of the market; there wasn't much incentive for people to write viruses for them.
 
2019-04-16 04:34:28 PM  

petec: Random Anonymous Blackmail: styckx

Defender is one of the most under appreciated or complimented pieces of software Microsoft has contributed to their OS period!

I have to agree, they got serious about a solution and it is very robust.

you know what I run for the best desktop anti-virus/anti-maleware? Linux
https://www.howtogeek.com/135392/htg-e​xplains-why-you-dont-need-an-antivirus​-on-linux-and-when-you-do/


So your argument is that 'security through obscurity' is an option? Sure, I guess. But there are plenty of Linux malware variants that do exist and kernel exploits as well. Given that it is open source, it also opens up the kernel to attack vectors and the like more easily than Windows. 

https://resources.whitesourcesoftware​.​com/blog-whitesource/top-5-linux-kerne​l-vulnerabilities-in-2018
https://www.zdnet.com/article/eset-di​s​covers-21-new-linux-malware-families/
https://null-byte.wonderhowto.com/how​-​to/perform-local-privilege-escalation-​using-linux-kernel-exploit-0186317/

That last link is a 'how-to' on how to hack a linux box to gain root, hack shadow hashes and so on. Linux is vulnerable but not heavily used. Were that to change they'd have to come up with some kind of Defender like solution of their own.
 
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