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(LA Times)   What would universal basic income mean for America? Stockton, California thinks it has the answer with its pilot program for future basic income policies   (latimes.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Basic income, Income, Guaranteed minimum income, universal basic income, Employment, case others, Old Age Security, head of the Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration  
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553 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2019 at 10:04 AM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-04-15 09:32:26 AM  
I wish Delaware would try it out, too. I could use the money.
 
2019-04-15 09:59:20 AM  
I know, I know, let's let Alaska try it. They will try anything.
 
2019-04-15 10:01:28 AM  
i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 10:09:06 AM  
"I spent a lot of 5th and 6th grade just, like, in those tables at Subway so that I could keep my mom some company and spend some time with her," Samra said. "Five hundred a month would have meant that my mom spent a couple more hours at home with us every night."

What are we doing, America? Why do we allow this to continue?
 
2019-04-15 10:10:35 AM  
We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.
 
2019-04-15 10:11:38 AM  

Soup4Bonnie: What are we doing, America? Why do we allow this to continue?


GOP policy
 
2019-04-15 10:13:12 AM  
We just need a constitutional amendment punishing greed. Then we'll have a shot at getting UBI off the ground.
 
2019-04-15 10:13:58 AM  

Soup4Bonnie: "I spent a lot of 5th and 6th grade just, like, in those tables at Subway so that I could keep my mom some company and spend some time with her," Samra said. "Five hundred a month would have meant that my mom spent a couple more hours at home with us every night."

What are we doing, America? Why do we allow this to continue?


Jamie Dimon needs a 20th yacht.
 
2019-04-15 10:14:16 AM  

snocone: I know, I know, let's let Alaska try it. They will try anything.


Problem is, their shared income is from fossil fuel extraction (gasp!). So the same people who are pushing a universal guaranteed income are fighting, in this case, the source of it.

Of course, one option is simply to print it, which will cause inflation commensurate with the newfound "wealth" that everyone has, effectively cancelling out any positive effect.

/But that's only obvious if you study it out.
 
2019-04-15 10:14:39 AM  
Why in the bloody blue fark are they even spending any graphs on reparations when discussing UBI?

The Stockton program doesn't involve reparations, but it could provide insight on that, too.

Who said that?  I bet the scope of the farking study doesn't.  Asshats.
 
2019-04-15 10:15:46 AM  

Mercutio74: We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.


Some people still don't research (and if they do research, they probably ignore for either "Stiggin' it" or racism or other stupid reasons) of politicians that show when they mean, "I am going to stop supporting those lazy welfare queens." they mean that person too and not just the black family down the street that person wishes left the neighborhood.
 
2019-04-15 10:19:55 AM  
We already have that in Alaska, and no matter how many times it's called a dividend, it's not a dividend.

A dividend is given willfully by a corporation to its shareholders in proportion to the number of shares owned.  The corporation can cancel the dividend at any time.

The Alaska Permanent Fund is a tax taken by force from oil corporations and distributed equally to all Alaskans regardless of power, influence, or age.  It is in the state Constitution and would be all but impossible to cancel.
 
2019-04-15 10:20:14 AM  
Basic income is good for capitalism because the money goes straight back into the economy instead of rotting in a 1%er's bank account as a tax cut.
 
2019-04-15 10:21:55 AM  
Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.
 
2019-04-15 10:23:23 AM  

DarkSoulNoHope: Mercutio74: We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.

Some people still don't research (and if they do research, they probably ignore for either "Stiggin' it" or racism or other stupid reasons) of politicians that show when they mean, "I am going to stop supporting those lazy welfare queens." they mean that person too and not just the black family down the street that person wishes left the neighborhood.


Oh my god, it was even better than that.  Doug Ford (brother of Rob, the crack mayor, but Doug is more evil and less charismatic) won the party leadership without either a majority of votes or a majority of regions won (it was due to some weird regional weighting system).

Then he went on to run without any specifics in his platform.  It's traditional for party leader ship to produce a costed platform that includes a rough blue print of their plans using real numbers.  They didn't do that.

Ford ran on bringing "buck a beer" back to Ontario and on some fantasy of lowering electricity bills by 12% based on firing the CEO of the public/private hydro electric company and replacing him with someone else.  Basically, they were elected without any discernible policy goals.

To be fair, it's because the center-left vote was split and the conservatives are way out their on the right by themselves so they won a majority government with 40% of the popular vote.  Still though, 4/10 Ontarians voted for an evil idiot with no platform.
 
2019-04-15 10:29:15 AM  

GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.


We aren't going to have much of an option as automation continues to take over. We are getting close to point where there just won't be jobs for everyone, especially the unskilled. The way I see it working is that every adult is guaranteed a basic income until they earn an income of x amount.
 
2019-04-15 10:29:28 AM  

fernt: snocone: I know, I know, let's let Alaska try it. They will try anything.

Problem is, their shared income is from fossil fuel extraction (gasp!). So the same people who are pushing a universal guaranteed income are fighting, in this case, the source of it.

Of course, one option is simply to print it, which will cause inflation commensurate with the newfound "wealth" that everyone has, effectively cancelling out any positive effect.

/But that's only obvious if you study it out.


Or we could try actually taxing the wealthy and big corporations more than regular people and small businesses that don't make nearly as much money.
 
2019-04-15 10:30:03 AM  

Mercutio74: We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.


Ever hear of Kentucky and Matt Bevin?
 
2019-04-15 10:32:40 AM  

fernt: snocone: I know, I know, let's let Alaska try it. They will try anything.

Problem is, their shared income is from fossil fuel extraction (gasp!). So the same people who are pushing a universal guaranteed income are fighting, in this case, the source of it.

Of course, one option is simply to print it, which will cause inflation commensurate with the newfound "wealth" that everyone has, effectively cancelling out any positive effect.

/But that's only obvious if you study it out.


That is a nice deflection ya got there. And it is a shame.
 
2019-04-15 10:33:14 AM  

I want that sauce Morty!: Mercutio74: We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.

Ever hear of Kentucky and Matt Bevin?


On some level I expect Kentucky to have a shiat government.  It is a state that continues to elect McConnell.  I naively hoped for more from my fellow Canadians.
 
2019-04-15 10:35:00 AM  

fernt: snocone: I know, I know, let's let Alaska try it. They will try anything.

Problem is, their shared income is from fossil fuel extraction (gasp!). So the same people who are pushing a universal guaranteed income are fighting, in this case, the source of it.

Of course, one option is simply to print it, which will cause inflation commensurate with the newfound "wealth" that everyone has, effectively cancelling out any positive effect.


So lets just take it from the wealthy. They have all the money and worry about it constantly. The only humane thing to do is relieve them of their worries.
 
2019-04-15 10:41:41 AM  
They see basic income as a way to keep society from collapsing if the robots they are building and the artificial intelligence they are coding eventually combine to take over most jobs now performed by humans.

We've moved to associating it with reparations to automation. super. Maybe next we'll get to climate change.
 
2019-04-15 10:43:07 AM  

snocone: [i.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Thanks.  Now I feel farking old.
 
2019-04-15 10:43:44 AM  
Good God, I want this.  I'm so farking sick of working.
 
2019-04-15 10:45:41 AM  

orclover: snocone: [i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

Thanks.  Now I feel farking old.


Is that not the best revenge?
 
2019-04-15 10:46:26 AM  
Here's an idea.

Earn your own money.
 
2019-04-15 10:46:38 AM  

optimistic_cynic: GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.

We aren't going to have much of an option as automation continues to take over. We are getting close to point where there just won't be jobs for everyone, especially the unskilled. The way I see it working is that every adult is guaranteed a basic income until they earn an income of x amount.


I agree completely. The issue is that small, failed experiments mislabeled UBI will make it harder to get there and the transition much more painful.
 
2019-04-15 10:51:52 AM  

GRCooper: optimistic_cynic: GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.

We aren't going to have much of an option as automation continues to take over. We are getting close to point where there just won't be jobs for everyone, especially the unskilled. The way I see it working is that every adult is guaranteed a basic income until they earn an income of x amount.

I agree completely. The issue is that small, failed experiments mislabeled UBI will make it harder to get there and the transition much more painful.


actually, I do disagree with the last bit.  I don't care if you're homeless or a billionaire.  You get the same UBI, untaxed.  The problems (and bureaucracy needed to enforce it - and thus the expense) aren't worth making a cutoff.  Everyone gets it.  Need basic shelter, food, and utilities?  You're covered.  Want a big screen TV or the latest smartphone?  Work for it.
 
2019-04-15 10:52:37 AM  

GRCooper: optimistic_cynic: GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.

We aren't going to have much of an option as automation continues to take over. We are getting close to point where there just won't be jobs for everyone, especially the unskilled. The way I see it working is that every adult is guaranteed a basic income until they earn an income of x amount.

I agree completely. The issue is that small, failed experiments mislabeled UBI will make it harder to get there and the transition much more painful.


It would seem to me that it would much more difficult to achieve with a smaller population and that is likely why these smaller localized experiments are failing. You'd need a fairly large population of middle and upper class to be able to support it.
 
2019-04-15 10:54:20 AM  

randomjsa: Here's an idea.

Earn your own money.


Right after you get your own dirt.
 
2019-04-15 10:55:23 AM  

GRCooper: GRCooper: optimistic_cynic: GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.

We aren't going to have much of an option as automation continues to take over. We are getting close to point where there just won't be jobs for everyone, especially the unskilled. The way I see it working is that every adult is guaranteed a basic income until they earn an income of x amount.

I agree completely. The issue is that small, failed experiments mislabeled UBI will make it harder to get there and the transition much more painful.

actually, I do disagree with the last bit.  I don't care if you're homeless or a billionaire.  You get the same UBI, untaxed.  The problems (and bureaucracy needed to enforce it - and thus the expense) aren't worth making a cutoff. Everyone gets it.  Need basic shelter, food, and utilities?  You're covered.  Want a big screen TV or the latest smartphone?  Work for it.


That's a good point.
 
2019-04-15 10:58:30 AM  

snocone: randomjsa: Here's an idea.

Earn your own money.

Right after you get your own dirt.


With enough money, you can buy some dirt! The Founders felt that private property rights were kind of important, thank god.
 
2019-04-15 11:01:26 AM  
i.vimeocdn.comView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 11:02:04 AM  

fernt: snocone: randomjsa: Here's an idea.

Earn your own money.

Right after you get your own dirt.

With enough money, you can buy some dirt! The Founders felt that private property rights were kind of important, thank god.


That is what we call begging the issue, a common logical fallacy when using metaphors.
 
2019-04-15 11:04:50 AM  
UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It only works if the majority of people have income from other sources than UBI, so that that extra income can be taxed to provide the money to pay for UBI. When enough people depend solely on UBI, it becomes an unsustainable ouroboros.
 
2019-04-15 11:06:51 AM  

Purple_Urkle: Basic income is good for capitalism because the money goes straight back into the economy instead of rotting in a 1%er's bank account as a tax cut.


and people don't lay on their ass and expect it to take care of everything.  People still work because it' still a rat race. They know it's called basic for a reason.  Even this study is only a piss in the pot for a short period.

For the next year and a half, 130 residents of this struggling Central Valley city will get $500 every month, with no strings - such as employment or sobriety requirements - attached, in a social experiment that is as much public relations as rigorous research.

Hardly universal, and takes "basic" to a new meaning if anyone thinks it's going to provide for any kid of rent in Stockton.  Feeling this is more the PR than the Rigorous Research, but it's an effort I'm happy to see and would support here in Seattle.

Half serious: here's where I think researchers will overlook an important social piece of information; ain't no pussy chasing after UBI.  Fools are still going to need to strut and preen and flash their colored feathers.  The rat race didn't end just because a few at the poor end got a percentage to even the playing field a tiny bit, the people in the middle get an extra Christmas present for their kids, and the greedy rich can haven another coin in their farking pockets.

You know what we used to do?  Group of uneven aged kids'd sit down to play Monopoly and us older ones would give the younger kids a few extra hundreds just to make the game more interesting for everyone.   How farking hard is that concept?

Right.  Rage amount achieved.  Back to work.
 
2019-04-15 11:09:13 AM  

RoomFullOfMonkeys: UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It only works if the majority of people have income from other sources than UBI, so that that extra income can be taxed to provide the money to pay for UBI. When enough people depend solely on UBI, it becomes an unsustainable ouroboros.


i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 11:11:07 AM  
Now just why in the hell would a Welfare Queen need UBI

/sic and sic
 
2019-04-15 11:28:04 AM  
Humanity already saw UBI.  It allowed a nation of 350,000 to resist hostility from all directions and birthed thinkers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Sure, they kept slaves.  They weren't perfect.  But that doesn't change that UBI cemented the birth of Western Civilization.
 
2019-04-15 11:28:11 AM  
It's a start, but $6k/year, even tax free, isn't enough.
 
2019-04-15 11:34:31 AM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: Humanity already saw UBI.  It allowed a nation of 350,000 to resist hostility from all directions and birthed thinkers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Sure, they kept slaves.  They weren't perfect.  But that doesn't change that UBI cemented the birth of Western Civilization.


Automation will replace slaves.
 
2019-04-15 11:35:58 AM  

WhackingDay: It's a start, but $6k/year, even tax free, isn't enough.


Yea, not even gonna cover the insulin.
 
2019-04-15 11:40:14 AM  
But you'd have to live in Stockton to benefit, right? Is it worth it?
 
2019-04-15 12:03:17 PM  

GRCooper: backhand.slap.of.reason: Humanity already saw UBI.  It allowed a nation of 350,000 to resist hostility from all directions and birthed thinkers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Sure, they kept slaves.  They weren't perfect.  But that doesn't change that UBI cemented the birth of Western Civilization.

Automation will replace slaves.


Automation will replace being paid for your labors.  It will also make you so useless to the people holding all the food and property that they won't even bother to sell it to you.  Non-AI controlling people will be so divorced from self-determination that they will effectively be slaves.  There will not be many of them.  The future of humanity is bleak.
 
2019-04-15 12:03:58 PM  
not sold on the "automation causing massive unemployment" fantasy and don't care to get into it, but if it's a reason to explore the novel concept of giving poor people some money so they aren't as poor, then we have aligned goals
 
2019-04-15 12:10:21 PM  

GRCooper: Just don't. Small, localized experiments of a universal basic income that fail are used as examples of why it won't work.


Small/localized experiments have shown moderate success.  Fullscale implementation would be much more successful because it would allow the elimination of a shiat-tonne of overhead.
 
2019-04-15 12:11:34 PM  

Mercutio74: We had a pilot program going on in Ontario.  Then we elected a conservative provincial government an they killed it.  So we'll never know up here unless a responsible government gets elected soon.

I read a delightful article about some idiot that counted on the money for the welfare of his family being all dumbfounded that he voted for Ford and then Ford turned around and made his existence much more difficult.


Conservatives love running away from evidence.
 
2019-04-15 12:11:35 PM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: GRCooper: backhand.slap.of.reason: Humanity already saw UBI.  It allowed a nation of 350,000 to resist hostility from all directions and birthed thinkers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Sure, they kept slaves.  They weren't perfect.  But that doesn't change that UBI cemented the birth of Western Civilization.

Automation will replace slaves.

Automation will replace being paid for your labors.  It will also make you so useless to the people holding all the food and property that they won't even bother to sell it to you.  Non-AI controlling people will be so divorced from self-determination that they will effectively be slaves.  There will not be many of them.  The future of humanity is bleak.


To an oligarch persons are nothing but walking, talking, breathing and breeding entitlements they choose not to uphold.
 
2019-04-15 12:13:06 PM  

Purple_Urkle: Basic income is good for capitalism because the money goes straight back into the economy instead of rotting in a 1%er's bank account as a tax cut.


Money in the hands of people who spend?  What a novel idea.
 
2019-04-15 12:15:44 PM  
If I ever come into fark you money, I've got the basics of a plan to quietly fund X number of people X amount of money. They'd be treated as employees of a company with a significant salary and health care, barring single payer ever being implemented. Their "job" would be to do whatever the fark they want to. The only requirements would be mandatory financial classes annually, with an eye towards teaching or refreshing employees on best practices for managing their income, and that a percentage of any money they make over and above thier salary goes back into the pile to fund expansion. That percentage would be strongly graduated with an eye to minimizing multi-millionaires.

Employees offering services useful to the company would still get to charge for thier services above whatever the base salary is. The base salary is pay for simply existing. It would be standardized, meaning that base is the same no matter where you live. That's deliberate and intended to encourge people to move away from high cost of living areas.

The point is to have a giant pile of money generating investment income/interest that's used to fund everyone's salary. With people adding more to the pile all the time in order to hire more people, on and on.

If someone hit it really big, wanted to be greedy and stop being an employee part of the "employment" contract is their pay to that point would be treated as a loan to be paid back. Once they've paid whatever they got out of it they'd be free and clear.

One key point is that even kids could be "employees." They'd "earn" the same money as adults but those funds could only be accessed for heath care or education until they are 25. After that it's theirs to do with as they please. For the kind of salary I'm thinking that should easily pay for college/tech schools or give them a nice nest egg to start their life with.

This has the perks of not needing any political support while functionally being a UBI structured in such a way that civilization would have to completely collapse to stop getting it. Very long term the company could have almost everyone on it's payroll except for the Galt assholes. Benefits to society would be a permanent positive feedback loop on the economy and pretty much eliminating the welfare state and the need for charities. Any impact it would have on the economy would look like normal economic growth.
 
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