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(Business Insider)   So does anyone know how to use a sextant?   (businessinsider.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Global Positioning System, Vladimir Putin, Global navigation satellite system, Russian President Vladimir Putin, satellite navigation systems, large area, critical national infrastructures, GPS systems  
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5270 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2019 at 5:33 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-04-15 02:09:43 AM  
Until the last couple of years, C4AD believed the Russians used GNSS jamming or spoofing mostly to disguise the whereabouts of President Putin.

By conspicuously jamming GPS you're doing a bang up job of making sure nobody knows where Putin is
 
gcc [TotalFark]
2019-04-15 02:49:59 AM  
So, I used to work on this.

The US government knows that GPS is easy to spoof and to jam. They have a thing called the US Federal Radionavigation Plan which, no shiat, gives authority to the *coast guard* to deal with it. It also tepidly suggests further development of systems like eLORAN, which they basically did exclusively because they were lobbied and our government knows nothing about technology or security.

Systems like the EU's Galileo safety-of-life service that had any kind of provable security properties have struggled to come online and are probably not going to be usable in the next 5-10 years, if at all.

It's a clusterfark out there. Both time and navigation systems today are absurdly easy to compromise, even for systems you would desperately hope were hardened against it.
 
2019-04-15 04:04:09 AM  
It's possibe to figure out where you are using just a clock and a shadow. It's not easy, but it is doable.
 
2019-04-15 04:29:38 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 05:11:57 AM  
When they first allowed GPS to go public and especially when they opened access to the additional digits that permitted accuracy within something like a foot, I just assumed that they had a replacement system or security measures just waiting in the wings.  You don't have to read all of Von Clausewitz. Sun Tsu etc to realize that those things would have military implications.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2019-04-15 05:24:01 AM  
The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.
 
2019-04-15 05:38:16 AM  
Not only that, but they're blocking access to the news stories, too! Sneaky farkin' Russians...

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
KIA
2019-04-15 05:42:19 AM  

gcc: So, I used to work on this.

The US government knows that GPS is easy to spoof and to jam. They have a thing called the US Federal Radionavigation Plan which, no shiat, gives authority to the *coast guard* to deal with it. It also tepidly suggests further development of systems like eLORAN, which they basically did exclusively because they were lobbied and our government knows nothing about technology or security.

Systems like the EU's Galileo safety-of-life service that had any kind of provable security properties have struggled to come online and are probably not going to be usable in the next 5-10 years, if at all.

It's a clusterfark out there. Both time and navigation systems today are absurdly easy to compromise, even for systems you would desperately hope were hardened against it.


Plus civilians will pretty much drive off a cliff if their GPS tells them to.

But what happened with the 2005 Space Shuttle global 3-d mapping project?  I always felt like that was done specifically to develop an alternative to GPS or to permit cruise missile targeting without GPS.  But I'm a really suspicious person.
 
2019-04-15 05:45:36 AM  
Yes, yes I do subby ...  Also can use a compass for landnav.  Still won't stop and ask for directions, even when Mrs. Maelstrom is rolling her eyes!
 
2019-04-15 05:56:37 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 06:05:57 AM  
Good thing there's a stable genius in the White House who knows more than the general.

/ Believe me.
 
2019-04-15 06:07:44 AM  
Generals.

/ FTFM
 
2019-04-15 06:13:43 AM  
This guy does...

cdn.cnn.comView Full Size


/smilin' Jeff
 
2019-04-15 06:13:50 AM  

tramp stamp: It's possible to figure out where you are using just a clock chronometer and a shadow. It's not easy, but it is doable.


Edited for accuracy.

/clocks don't mean sh*t
//real time pieces = navigation
///rum, sodomy, and the lash (or cannibalism)
 
2019-04-15 06:18:32 AM  
No, but your mom does.

Because she went to the Naval Academy.
 
2019-04-15 06:23:30 AM  
Yes
 
2019-04-15 06:26:02 AM  

sithon: [img.fark.net image 640x640]


i.makeagif.comView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 06:29:18 AM  
Yup, I can use a sextant,  a compass, a map and this thing called dead-reckoning too.

/tis amazing the skills one can acquire while serving in the military
 
2019-04-15 06:40:02 AM  

ZAZ: The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.


Funny you should mention this.

I work near the cruise pier in Boston. Last summer we got a goodwill visit from a Navy destroyer (Ney Work gets the aircraft carriers, we only rate a destroyer). Anyway, they were giving deck and bridge tours for all comers.  So we spent our lunch hour seeing the ship. The bridge officer was an Academy graduate, and the Navigation officer, so I quizzed him. Yes, he said, he does use a sextant daily and tests himself against the GPS.  He said his last fix was 200 yards off. He also said they still use the blinker light between ships, so someone still uses Morse Code.

200 yards is excellent. I have a sextant (for fun) and my fixes are lucky to be in the same state. From the beach. He's on a rolling ship.
 
2019-04-15 06:47:41 AM  
Funny enough, I just happen to have one of these....

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-04-15 07:02:20 AM  

gcc: So, I used to work on this.

The US government knows that GPS is easy to spoof and to jam. They have a thing called the US Federal Radionavigation Plan which, no shiat, gives authority to the *coast guard* to deal with it. It also tepidly suggests further development of systems like eLORAN, which they basically did exclusively because they were lobbied and our government knows nothing about technology or security.

Systems like the EU's Galileo safety-of-life service that had any kind of provable security properties have struggled to come online and are probably not going to be usable in the next 5-10 years, if at all.

It's a clusterfark out there. Both time and navigation systems today are absurdly easy to compromise, even for systems you would desperately hope were hardened against it.


This is why I come to Fark
 
2019-04-15 07:04:04 AM  
Yes.  Rule number one is she should not be your own aunt.  There is no rule number two.
 
2019-04-15 07:09:09 AM  

Truck Fump: ZAZ: The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.

Funny you should mention this.

I work near the cruise pier in Boston. Last summer we got a goodwill visit from a Navy destroyer (Ney Work gets the aircraft carriers, we only rate a destroyer). Anyway, they were giving deck and bridge tours for all comers.  So we spent our lunch hour seeing the ship. The bridge officer was an Academy graduate, and the Navigation officer, so I quizzed him. Yes, he said, he does use a sextant daily and tests himself against the GPS.  He said his last fix was 200 yards off. He also said they still use the blinker light between ships, so someone still uses Morse Code.

200 yards is excellent. I have a sextant (for fun) and my fixes are lucky to be in the same state. From the beach. He's on a rolling ship.


<CSB> Was doing some work at 17 Wing in Winnipeg around 2005 which is one of the bases that houses Hercules and was able to get a tour. They still had the bubbles for using the sextant and had only removed the sextants from the planes a couple years before. Wouldn't surprise me if they brought them back
</CSB>
 
2019-04-15 07:15:53 AM  
Yes.
 
2019-04-15 07:20:36 AM  

Just another Heartland Weirdass: Yes.  Rule number one is she should not be your own aunt.  There is no rule number two.


MAN, your GPS is borked :)
 
2019-04-15 07:26:03 AM  
I know how to use a sextant. In actual practice you are getting a location three times a day and it's within about three to twelve miles. More accuracy is definitely possible but not practical, especially for your average sailor. That is in no way a replacement for GPS.

Military GPS is still encrypted. That does not mean it can't be jammed, it's difficult to spoof though. Ships can generally use a combination of other things to navigate. It really needs to be drilled in not to trust any single location source though.

Airplanes could be in trouble with bad GPS info. I don't know. I drive ships not airplanes.

It's really tough to see the security benefit from spoofing GPS nearby a state leader. If you have to worry about GPS guided ordinance you are way past the point at which you should have stayed home.
 
2019-04-15 07:27:32 AM  

2wolves: tramp stamp: It's possible to figure out where you are using just a clock chronometer and a shadow. It's not easy, but it is doable.

Edited for accuracy.

/clocks don't mean sh*t
//real time pieces = navigation
///rum, sodomy, and the lash (or cannibalism)


But three clocks are probably cheaper than a chronometer, if that's all you have - although a cruise ship in distress should have enough decent timepieces on guests' wrists to do the job.
 
2019-04-15 07:29:43 AM  

ZAZ: The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.


Celestial navigation I think you mean, and yes, they did, we even had a Fark thread about it:

https://www.fark.com/comments/8891568​/​You-cant-hack-a-sextant-US-Naval-Acade​my-going-back-to-teaching-celestial-na​vigation-after-16-year-hiatus-as-a-hed​ge-against-cyberwarfare

That was back in October of 2015.
 
2019-04-15 07:35:48 AM  
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs, I said. We have a protractor."

-- Character in Neil Stephanson novel, whose senor upon finding their GPS is disabled, instructs him to make a purchase from a stationary store so they can navigate to their goal by first principles
 
2019-04-15 07:39:25 AM  
So does this or does this not have anything to do with the recent ship crashes?

/things that make you go hmm
//also, amazing how quickly we forgot about those and their promised investigations
///damage control propaganda
 
2019-04-15 07:40:00 AM  
There was a plan to put better jammer detection in the current block of GPS sats. Guess what didn't happen.

Jammers that just block the signals are under $100 now. Ones that send fake signals are more expensive. Early GPS simulators were about $20,000. I expect a $2,000 Gnu radio system could be made to fake the signals.
 
2019-04-15 07:42:19 AM  

dittybopper: ZAZ: The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.

Celestial navigation I think you mean, and yes, they did, we even had a Fark thread about it:

https://www.fark.com/comments/8891568/​You-cant-hack-a-sextant-US-Naval-Acade​my-going-back-to-teaching-celestial-na​vigation-after-16-year-hiatus-as-a-hed​ge-against-cyberwarfare

That was back in October of 2015.


Sorry to disappoint. That was misreported. For the Navy celestial navigation now means azimuths and amplitudes (calculating direction to the sun/stars) and calculating sunrise and sunset long hand. The merchant marine still teaches navigating though!
 
2019-04-15 07:42:55 AM  
I can use a Sextoy. Same thing, right?
 
2019-04-15 07:43:34 AM  
Herbie Hancock - Sextant [Full album] | 1973
Youtube 6Mz5rR0y0fM

Herbie do
 
2019-04-15 07:48:37 AM  
I do. I also have navmap software on a thumb drive.
 
2019-04-15 07:52:24 AM  

Aufdie: I know how to use a sextant. In actual practice you are getting a location three times a day and it's within about three to twelve miles. More accuracy is definitely possible but not practical, especially for your average sailor. That is in no way a replacement for GPS.


The SR-71 had an automated celestial navigation system accurate to within 300 yards back in the 1960's. I think the Navy could gin something up at least as accurate.

But even assuming they couldn't, few practical navigation problems require more accuracy than 3 to 12 miles anyway.  For those that do, you're generally near land where you can more accurately determine your location.

For roughly 200 years navies did quite will navigating without GPS.  It wasn't until the 1980's that they started depending on it.

Not only that, but we've got pretty accurate inertial systems, and have had them for decades.  They were originally produced for nuclear ballistic missile submarines which needed to know where they were with some accuracy but which couldn't for obvious reasons surface every 12 hours and do star sights.  Though they could periodically update their position by taking star sights through a periscope adapted for that:  Celestial Sighting Thought the Submarine Periscope
 
2019-04-15 07:55:57 AM  

lycanth: I do. I also have navmap software on a thumb drive.


img.fark.netView Full Size


INHERENTLY JAM PROOF.  EVEN RASPBERRY.
 
2019-04-15 07:58:26 AM  

whither_apophis: Until the last couple of years, C4AD believed the Russians used GNSS jamming or spoofing mostly to disguise the whereabouts of President Putin.

By conspicuously jamming GPS you're doing a bang up job of making sure nobody knows where Putin is


I'd guess it's more an effort to screw up a cruise missle's guidance or something similar rather than hide his physical presence.
 
2019-04-15 08:03:09 AM  
As a member of the US Coast Guard in the 1980s, I was taught to use a sextant.  I might be able to remember how today.  But I don't know if they still publish the reference table books for sight reductions anymore.
 
2019-04-15 08:07:39 AM  

tommyl66: Not only that, but they're blocking access to the news stories, too! Sneaky farkin' Russians...

[img.fark.net image 850x253]


Opera browser goes right there with no problem.
 
2019-04-15 08:11:49 AM  

lizyrd: whither_apophis: Until the last couple of years, C4AD believed the Russians used GNSS jamming or spoofing mostly to disguise the whereabouts of President Putin.

By conspicuously jamming GPS you're doing a bang up job of making sure nobody knows where Putin is

I'd guess it's more an effort to screw up a cruise missle's guidance or something similar rather than hide his physical presence.


But why bother?  We've got missiles guided by TERCOM and DSMAC.  No GPS required, especially not in the terminal phase.

In fact, even our GPS guided missiles are generally provided with a backup inertial system so that if there is GPS jamming at the target the missile will continue on to where it was aimed, with little degradation of accuracty.
 
2019-04-15 08:12:38 AM  

dittybopper: with little degradation of accuracty.


But with minor issues related to spelling accuracy, however.
 
2019-04-15 08:18:20 AM  

Mad Scientist: As a member of the US Coast Guard in the 1980s, I was taught to use a sextant.  I might be able to remember how today.  But I don't know if they still publish the reference table books for sight reductions anymore.


Yes, they do, because not everyone is enamored of modern technology that relies on things like electricity.

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comView Full Size


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comView Full Size


You can also get free electronic versions of the data.  But I would expect that you'd want the actual book if you were going to use it for actual navigation purposes.  There isn't much point in having a completely manual process if it relies on using some electronics.
 
2019-04-15 08:20:45 AM  
*clutches astrolabe nervously*
 
2019-04-15 08:21:37 AM  
I learned to navigate an airplane by pilotage before GPS even existed so getting a kick out of this story. Our fathers and grandfathers flew around the world without GPS and too many pilots today can't leave the traffic pattern without it.

Yes I still fly with charts. Already folded to the correct area.

(I fly open cockpit so they better be already folded to correct area.)
 
2019-04-15 08:22:55 AM  

dittybopper: Mad Scientist: As a member of the US Coast Guard in the 1980s, I was taught to use a sextant.  I might be able to remember how today.  But I don't know if they still publish the reference table books for sight reductions anymore.

Yes, they do, because not everyone is enamored of modern technology that relies on things like electricity.

[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 309x450]

[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 315x450]

You can also get free electronic versions of the data.  But I would expect that you'd want the actual book if you were going to use it for actual navigation purposes.  There isn't much point in having a completely manual process if it relies on using some electronics.


Ah yes, those look familiar.  Of course, I learned celestial nav in the pre-GPS days.  Only LORAN back then.  Why yes, I'm old.
 
2019-04-15 08:24:01 AM  

gcc: So, I used to work on this.

The US government knows that GPS is easy to spoof and to jam. They have a thing called the US Federal Radionavigation Plan which, no shiat, gives authority to the *coast guard* to deal with it. It also tepidly suggests further development of systems like eLORAN, which they basically did exclusively because they were lobbied and our government knows nothing about technology or security.

Systems like the EU's Galileo safety-of-life service that had any kind of provable security properties have struggled to come online and are probably not going to be usable in the next 5-10 years, if at all.

It's a clusterfark out there. Both time and navigation systems today are absurdly easy to compromise, even for systems you would desperately hope were hardened against it.


I'm doubtful that there aren't others who have noticed this.
 
2019-04-15 08:24:06 AM  

ol' gormsby: 2wolves: tramp stamp: It's possible to figure out where you are using just a clock chronometer and a shadow. It's not easy, but it is doable.

Edited for accuracy.

/clocks don't mean sh*t
//real time pieces = navigation
///rum, sodomy, and the lash (or cannibalism)

But three clocks are probably cheaper than a chronometer, if that's all you have - although a cruise ship in distress should have enough decent timepieces on guests' wrists to do the job.


The problem in that case is when they last set their watches, and to what time standard?

You probably don't know.
 
2019-04-15 08:24:25 AM  
Wasn't this, literally, the plot of NCIS just last week?
 
2019-04-15 08:25:05 AM  

ZAZ: The Navy started teaching navigation again a few years ago. I think. I hope.


Yes, they restarted use of Nav aids.
 
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