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(CBS4Denver - KCNC)   Colorado Lotto won't pay winner full amount even though the other two winners cheated. Now he hopes to win big in court   (denver.cbslocal.com) divider line
    More: Strange, Multi-State Lottery Association, Lottery, Powerball, Lotteries in the United States, Mega Millions, State lotteries of the United States, Colorado engineer Amir Massihzadeh, Associated Press  
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7766 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2019 at 5:35 PM (8 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-04-14 05:36:49 PM  
I would say he has a pretty good case, but he's going up against a state agency that gets to write their own rules, so the deck is stacked against him.
 
2019-04-14 05:37:39 PM  
I hope he wins. I hope he wins so farking hard
 
2019-04-14 05:38:29 PM  
So, the Lotto agency is giving people one more reason to not pay the stupid tax?
 
2019-04-14 05:39:51 PM  
The lawyers are the only ones who won here either way it goes.
 
2019-04-14 05:41:14 PM  

Glorious Golden Ass: So, the Lotto agency is giving people one more reason to not pay the stupid tax?


People that are going to play will do so no matter how many reasons there are not to.

Also, consider yourself bit
 
2019-04-14 05:44:55 PM  
I'm hoping the judge has the gavel cocked and ready to award this guy what he deserves.
 
2019-04-14 05:47:59 PM  
I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?
 
2019-04-14 05:48:37 PM  
Just do like the Native American owned casinos do around here, anytime they have to pay out a huge amount of money, claim that it was a mistake and don't pay out anything.
 
2019-04-14 05:49:34 PM  
The plus interest might be a harder sell but im counting that as his legal fees and wishing him luck.
 
2019-04-14 05:51:39 PM  
Ahhh, this is the Eddie Tipton deal, isn't it?

The guy will win. And if he asks for them, the lottery will likely be ordered to pay his attorney fees.

Tipton was lottery employee. This guy shouldn't get a pipe up his ass because the lottery didn't keep an eye on their employees. Or, at least that would be my argument in court.
 
2019-04-14 05:51:42 PM  

rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?


Lotteries keep track of what numbers are sold where (they announce where the winning ticket was sold) so they seem to have a large database of all tickets sold. I guess the way to find out would be to see if any two or more jackpot winners bought quick pick tickets instead of playing their choice of numbers.

A true RNG could sell all tickets purchased with the same winning numbers. It's statistically unlikely, but it's possible.
 
2019-04-14 05:54:24 PM  
Don't get me started on state lotteries, giant scam top to bottom . And the winner loses, Hit it Ice!
 
2019-04-14 05:57:33 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: Ahhh, this is the Eddie Tipton deal, isn't it?

The guy will win. And if he asks for them, the lottery will likely be ordered to pay his attorney fees.

Tipton was lottery employee. This guy shouldn't get a pipe up his ass because the lottery didn't keep an eye on their employees. Or, at least that would be my argument in court.


Colorado could possibly wiggle out of it by saying they're just as much a victim as this guy is.  Tipton wasn't their direct employee, he worked for the association (yes, run by all of the participating lottery states) that coordinated multi-state games in which Colorado participated.  The guy could get better traction suing all of those lotteries at once, or the association they run.
 
2019-04-14 05:59:14 PM  

DemonKing561: I hope he wins. I hope he wins so farking hard


You seem to be salivating over his hard winner
 
2019-04-14 06:02:15 PM  

Bermuda59: Just do like the Native American owned casinos do around here, anytime they have to pay out a huge amount of money, claim that it was a mistake and don't pay out anything.


I thought that was *any* casino.
 
2019-04-14 06:02:28 PM  
FTFA:  October 5, 2017 at 1:29 pm

Can I be first with "Old news is so exciting"?
 
2019-04-14 06:03:36 PM  

BlazeTrailer: DemonKing561: I hope he wins. I hope he wins so farking hard

You seem to be salivating over his hard winner


Well yeah.  You don't want it going in dry.
 
2019-04-14 06:04:55 PM  

rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?


No, true random.  Or as random as a computer can get.

They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.
 
2019-04-14 06:06:49 PM  

mrmopar5287: rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?

Lotteries keep track of what numbers are sold where (they announce where the winning ticket was sold) so they seem to have a large database of all tickets sold. I guess the way to find out would be to see if any two or more jackpot winners bought quick pick tickets instead of playing their choice of numbers.

A true RNG could sell all tickets purchased with the same winning numbers. It's statistically unlikely, but it's possible.


I was always told true RNG is impossible since it is done by a computer, and that is based on clock speed and the flops of the CPU or whatever jargon. I remember the neat trick my math teacher showed us on out Ti-83 graphing calculators, and a standard RNG plot eventually forms a neat spiralling pattern. So, at least back in my olden days, you have to actually code RNG to be noticeably random to the human observer. Otherwise you can plot random chance and increase your odds.

Am I near the mark for any math geeks in the audience?
 
2019-04-14 06:08:57 PM  

bobobolinskii: The lawyers are the only ones who won here either way it goes.


agreed. Mind i have always felt that the lawyers of some one who wins a settlement in court should have to be paid by the loser separately from the settlement.  The settlement should go solely to victims and legal fees paid by the loser in a lawsuit should not be subtracted from it.
 
2019-04-14 06:09:47 PM  

MiamiChef: rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?

No, true random.  Or as random as a computer can get.

They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.


Which could happen randomly.
 
2019-04-14 06:14:53 PM  

rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?


Quick picks are supposed to be random; if they worked like you described, It seems like it would be extra dumb (beyond the usual dumb for playing the lottery) to play anything other than quick picks, and to buy a ticket except just before the drawing, unless you were in on a scam.

If they're random, then the best choice if you have any insight into what numbers the public has typically picked in the past, would be to manually select numbers that people are less likely to pick, to avoid split jackpots. If everyone were rational and nobody had any special insight and lottery systems weren't rigged, then quick picks would be at least as good as any other method, but in general people aren't rational, some people do have insider data access, and many (most?) lottery systems are rigged in various ways.
 
2019-04-14 06:16:29 PM  
AppleOptionEsc:

I was always told true RNG is impossible since it is done by a computer

This hacked lottery was using a Geiger counter as a source of random data for their computer generated number draws.

The point that it wasn't random was the handful of lines of code that made the numbers a pool of a few hundred specific combinations on a select few days each year. Invest a couple hundred dollars on all those picks the cheater knew about and you've got a guaranteed winner.
 
2019-04-14 06:16:49 PM  
If this like when casinos say a machine "malfunctioned"?
I hope he wins. What would be the interest on $5M for the last 14 years? I'd be going after that too.
 
2019-04-14 06:17:58 PM  

BlazeTrailer: DemonKing561: I hope he wins. I hope he wins so farking hard

You seem to be salivating over his hard winner


Sorry, must have been a Pavlovian reaction
 
2019-04-14 06:18:55 PM  
What is Random?
Youtube 9rIy0xY99a0
 
2019-04-14 06:19:27 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: MiamiChef: rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?

No, true random.  Or as random as a computer can get.

They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Which could happen randomly.


Right, but wouldn't happen if it checked for duplicates.
 
2019-04-14 06:19:34 PM  
What is NOT Random?
Youtube sMb00lz-IfE
 
2019-04-14 06:19:52 PM  

wxboy: Farkin_Crazy: Ahhh, this is the Eddie Tipton deal, isn't it?

The guy will win. And if he asks for them, the lottery will likely be ordered to pay his attorney fees.

Tipton was lottery employee. This guy shouldn't get a pipe up his ass because the lottery didn't keep an eye on their employees. Or, at least that would be my argument in court.

Colorado could possibly wiggle out of it by saying they're just as much a victim as this guy is.  Tipton wasn't their direct employee, he worked for the association (yes, run by all of the participating lottery states) that coordinated multi-state games in which Colorado participated.  The guy could get better traction suing all of those lotteries at once, or the association they run.


The guy has no claim against the other state lotteries. He didn't win them. He won the Colorado Lottery.

Even though the MUSL bound a high percentage of states together for Powerball and Mega Millions and others, this was a Colorado Lottery that was dicked with.

This case is getting intertwined with other MUSL lotteries that Colorado participates. And it shouldn't.

This case is strictly about the Colorado Lottery. Not Powerball, Mega-Millions, or other MUSL lotteries, even though Colorado participates in those.

The Colorado Lottery can't make a very strong argument because of that as far as I can see.
 
2019-04-14 06:26:50 PM  

MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.


Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.
 
2019-04-14 06:27:41 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: mrmopar5287: rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?

Lotteries keep track of what numbers are sold where (they announce where the winning ticket was sold) so they seem to have a large database of all tickets sold. I guess the way to find out would be to see if any two or more jackpot winners bought quick pick tickets instead of playing their choice of numbers.

A true RNG could sell all tickets purchased with the same winning numbers. It's statistically unlikely, but it's possible.

I was always told true RNG is impossible since it is done by a computer, and that is based on clock speed and the flops of the CPU or whatever jargon. I remember the neat trick my math teacher showed us on out Ti-83 graphing calculators, and a standard RNG plot eventually forms a neat spiralling pattern. So, at least back in my olden days, you have to actually code RNG to be noticeably random to the human observer. Otherwise you can plot random chance and increase your odds.

Am I near the mark for any math geeks in the audience?


Roughly speaking, computers generate random numbers by having a seed number, and then doing a bit of math to turn that seed number into a random number.  Or at least its a random number in the sense that an ensemble of such numbers should have certain statistical properties.

So it really comes down to how you generate the seed.  But most of the time you don't care too much about the seed, and just want certain statistical properties in the result.  But in principle with this sort of generation, you can reverse engineer the whole thing if you have enough sample random numbers, which would be bad if you don't want people to hack your stuff.

You can hook your computer to something that produces "true" random numbers.  These devices usually make some sort of physical measurement (e.g. measure atmospheric noise or the radioactive decay of something).  This isn't that hard to do, but its generally really slow compared to the pseudo random techniques.

For quick pick numbers on lottery tickets, I can't imagine that they really care if the numbers are truly random or pseudo random.  So they probably just do it the easy way.  But for actually generating the winning numbers, they'd need to do something truly random.
 
2019-04-14 06:28:13 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: mrmopar5287: rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?

Lotteries keep track of what numbers are sold where (they announce where the winning ticket was sold) so they seem to have a large database of all tickets sold. I guess the way to find out would be to see if any two or more jackpot winners bought quick pick tickets instead of playing their choice of numbers.

A true RNG could sell all tickets purchased with the same winning numbers. It's statistically unlikely, but it's possible.

I was always told true RNG is impossible since it is done by a computer, and that is based on clock speed and the flops of the CPU or whatever jargon. I remember the neat trick my math teacher showed us on out Ti-83 graphing calculators, and a standard RNG plot eventually forms a neat spiralling pattern. So, at least back in my olden days, you have to actually code RNG to be noticeably random to the human observer. Otherwise you can plot random chance and increase your odds.

Am I near the mark for any math geeks in the audience?


True random use something like nuclear decay or background radio noise or some natural phenomena to make numbers. People and most computers ( made by people ) are anything but random.
 
2019-04-14 06:31:28 PM  

rubi_con_man: I wonder this :

When you ask for a 'quick pick' does the machine choose a number that isn't already purchased?

In other words : If everyone bought 'quick pick' tickets, could there never be more than one grand prize winner?


No.  It's completely random.  It's unlikely two people will get the same quick pick, but it is possible.
 
2019-04-14 06:35:42 PM  

mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.


Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.
 
2019-04-14 06:38:08 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: wxboy: Farkin_Crazy: Ahhh, this is the Eddie Tipton deal, isn't it?

The guy will win. And if he asks for them, the lottery will likely be ordered to pay his attorney fees.

Tipton was lottery employee. This guy shouldn't get a pipe up his ass because the lottery didn't keep an eye on their employees. Or, at least that would be my argument in court.

Colorado could possibly wiggle out of it by saying they're just as much a victim as this guy is.  Tipton wasn't their direct employee, he worked for the association (yes, run by all of the participating lottery states) that coordinated multi-state games in which Colorado participated.  The guy could get better traction suing all of those lotteries at once, or the association they run.

The guy has no claim against the other state lotteries. He didn't win them. He won the Colorado Lottery.

Even though the MUSL bound a high percentage of states together for Powerball and Mega Millions and others, this was a Colorado Lottery that was dicked with.

This case is getting intertwined with other MUSL lotteries that Colorado participates. And it shouldn't.

This case is strictly about the Colorado Lottery. Not Powerball, Mega-Millions, or other MUSL lotteries, even though Colorado participates in those.

The Colorado Lottery can't make a very strong argument because of that as far as I can see.


There would be two separate arguments:

The simple one against Colorado for not paying what he is owed.

The second one against MUSL for providing the rigged software, especially if you can show negligence in their testing or supervision or something.

What are the odds that the state argues the game was invalid and therefore they aren't required to pay out anything? Thinking casinos with broken slot machines. The problem I see being that it would essentially concede to the other lawsuits demanding refunds and the winnings to be rolled over.
 
2019-04-14 06:40:10 PM  

max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.


Hah.  It should only pick the same numbers back-to-back once every few hundred million times.  What are the chances that people will buy that many lottery tickets?
 
2019-04-14 06:44:07 PM  
This thread demands some  Aaron Neville country black
 
2019-04-14 06:44:14 PM  
This entire story just keeps yielding more and more. I can't wait for the Netflix special.
 
2019-04-14 06:46:01 PM  

max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.


Because nobody would want to select the same set of numbers twice. Quick pick is supposed to be a convenience for a person buying tickets and I would expect it to have basic systems to not buy the same numbers twice on the same ticket.
 
2019-04-14 06:46:05 PM  

max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.


Because customers wanting multiple quick picks should expect they aren't sold the same pick twice or more. If two of the same picks on one ticket are winners, does the lottery pay them double? No, so quit stealing people's money (more than usual).
 
2019-04-14 06:47:23 PM  

dywed88: Farkin_Crazy: wxboy: Farkin_Crazy: Ahhh, this is the Eddie Tipton deal, isn't it?

The guy will win. And if he asks for them, the lottery will likely be ordered to pay his attorney fees.

Tipton was lottery employee. This guy shouldn't get a pipe up his ass because the lottery didn't keep an eye on their employees. Or, at least that would be my argument in court.

Colorado could possibly wiggle out of it by saying they're just as much a victim as this guy is.  Tipton wasn't their direct employee, he worked for the association (yes, run by all of the participating lottery states) that coordinated multi-state games in which Colorado participated.  The guy could get better traction suing all of those lotteries at once, or the association they run.

The guy has no claim against the other state lotteries. He didn't win them. He won the Colorado Lottery.

Even though the MUSL bound a high percentage of states together for Powerball and Mega Millions and others, this was a Colorado Lottery that was dicked with.

This case is getting intertwined with other MUSL lotteries that Colorado participates. And it shouldn't.

This case is strictly about the Colorado Lottery. Not Powerball, Mega-Millions, or other MUSL lotteries, even though Colorado participates in those.

The Colorado Lottery can't make a very strong argument because of that as far as I can see.

There would be two separate arguments:

The simple one against Colorado for not paying what he is owed.

The second one against MUSL for providing the rigged software, especially if you can show negligence in their testing or supervision or something.

What are the odds that the state argues the game was invalid and therefore they aren't required to pay out anything? Thinking casinos with broken slot machines. The problem I see being that it would essentially concede to the other lawsuits demanding refunds and the winnings to be rolled over.


The second argument isn't up to the winner to make.

It's up to the State of Colorado to argue that the MUSL screwed this up.
 
2019-04-14 06:51:55 PM  

mrmopar5287: max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.

Because customers wanting multiple quick picks should expect they aren't sold the same pick twice or more. If two of the same picks on one ticket are winners, does the lottery pay them double? No, so quit stealing people's money (more than usual).


It should pay double in the case of fixed prizes. Two sets of numbers on the same ticket should be no different than those same sets of numbers on two different tickets.

In the case of pot prizes, you should get two shares. For example, if there is one other winning ticket you should get 2/3 of the total rather than 1/2.

But I agree that it is terrible not to have a way to prevent such a situation.
 
2019-04-14 06:56:59 PM  

mrmopar5287: max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.

Because customers wanting multiple quick picks should expect they aren't sold the same pick twice or more. If two of the same picks on one ticket are winners, does the lottery pay them double? No, so quit stealing people's money (more than usual).


Yes, they do pay twice if the winning numbers are selected twice on one ticket.

Each chance you buy is a play. The lottery pays out for winning plays. Not tickets.
 
2019-04-14 06:57:01 PM  
I always play: 4 8 15 16 23 42
 
2019-04-14 06:58:46 PM  
Yeah, but did he used to be a Californian?
 
2019-04-14 07:03:10 PM  
With a pseudo random number generator (like what most computers and video fruit machines use),  the number generated is based on a seed number that is fed in.
That generated number is then used as the seed for the next one, and so on. So yes, if you feed the same seed in, you will get the same series of numbers out.

The "trick" is that the random number generator is always running. So every couple of milliseconds, there's another number. When you press the button to either play the slot machine or generate a quick pick, you get the next number off the generator.

Good luck figuring out how many iterations have passed when your request goes in. In fact, good luck figuring out the exact millisecond your button press was sent.
 
2019-04-14 07:15:32 PM  

Bermuda59: Just do like the Native American owned casinos do around here, anytime they have to pay out a huge amount of money, claim that it was a mistake and don't pay out anything.


This is why I play craps or roulette. If a human isn't making it random, it's not worth it.
 
2019-04-14 07:25:48 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: mrmopar5287: max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.

Because customers wanting multiple quick picks should expect they aren't sold the same pick twice or more. If two of the same picks on one ticket are winners, does the lottery pay them double? No, so quit stealing people's money (more than usual).

Yes, they do pay twice if the winning numbers are selected twice on one ticket.

Each chance you buy is a play. The lottery pays out for winning plays. Not tickets.


Not for pot prizes. A $100 million jackpot and you having two winning draws does not pay you $200 million.
 
2019-04-14 07:30:29 PM  
I play five Lotto tickets once a week, quick-pick. It generates for me a few hours of "what if I actually won" happiness, so it's worth it. And every now and then, I win a few bucks.
 
2019-04-14 07:35:41 PM  

mrmopar5287: Farkin_Crazy: mrmopar5287: max_pooper: mrmopar5287: MiamiChef: They showed a ticket a few months ago that was a quick pick that had the same six numbers on two lines.

Definite "whoops" moment if the programmers saw it. They'd put a bit of code in there to check multi-pick tickets for duplicate draws before dispensing them.

Why? The quick pick system is supposed to be random. The chances of the same quick pick numbers being randomly generated on the a single multi line ticket is low but will happen on occasion.

Because customers wanting multiple quick picks should expect they aren't sold the same pick twice or more. If two of the same picks on one ticket are winners, does the lottery pay them double? No, so quit stealing people's money (more than usual).

Yes, they do pay twice if the winning numbers are selected twice on one ticket.

Each chance you buy is a play. The lottery pays out for winning plays. Not tickets.

Not for pot prizes. A $100 million jackpot and you having two winning draws does not pay you $200 million.


No, but if there were 5 winners in the drawing and you had 2 of the winners on the same ticket, you would get 2/5 of the grand prize and the other winners would get 1/5 each.
 
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