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(Foreign Policy)   How China is becoming the leader of the skies thanks to being the first to ground the 737MAX   (foreignpolicy.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Federal Aviation Administration, China's civil aviation authority, Airline, Civil aviation authorities, Airliner, Civil aviation, Southwest Airlines, Aircraft  
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2497 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Mar 2019 at 10:01 PM (8 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-03-13 06:20:02 PM  
Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.
 
2019-03-13 06:30:04 PM  

themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.


US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.
 
2019-03-13 06:34:04 PM  

pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.


That's not the issue. The issue is the longer-term implications for US hegemony, which is what TFA goes into detail about.
 
2019-03-13 06:45:04 PM  
America suffers from extreme regulatory capture whenever the GOP gets to be in charge.  The Secretary of Transportation, Elaine Chao, is married to one Mitch McConnell.  Good luck regulating Boeing to begin with.
 
2019-03-13 06:47:29 PM  
China played a pivotal role in instituting the shutdown. Not long ago, it would have been unthinkable for the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) to jump ahead of America's Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in flagging a global safety concern

Trump dropped a giant turd in the international punch bowl.  China is going to make us EAT that turd.
 
2019-03-13 09:06:26 PM  
It doesn't really matter what order you ground them in, as long as you ground them before the next crash.

Two already, nobody should be the third. If they are, people will point and laugh at that country.

What's the over/under on Poland I wonder? Russia? Would be a good bet. Aeroflot as a very long and distinguished record in the field of unplanned interuptions to flight plans, and so does Russia.
 
2019-03-13 09:50:12 PM  

themindiswatching: pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.

That's not the issue. The issue is the longer-term implications for US hegemony, which is what TFA goes into detail about.


The US leads the world in delusional, shameless and cult-like support for treasonous, incompetent and criminal leadership.  They still got that going for them - which is nice.
 
2019-03-13 09:53:24 PM  

brantgoose: It doesn't really matter what order you ground them in, as long as you ground them before the next crash.

Two already, nobody should be the third. If they are, people will point and laugh at that country.

What's the over/under on Poland I wonder? Russia? Would be a good bet. Aeroflot as a very long and distinguished record in the field of unplanned interuptions to flight plans, and so does Russia.


Are any of these aircraft used for cargo?  Is that still permitted.  The risk is lower with far fewer people on board.
 
2019-03-13 10:04:57 PM  
They're serious about safety. Just look at the fire drills.
 
2019-03-13 10:06:05 PM  

pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.


"We have better pilots, so it doesn't matter if our government dragged its feet on grounding planes with significant, dangerous flaws" is a new take on all of this. I'm impressed.
 
2019-03-13 10:06:09 PM  
With an infant in the Oval Office, China is positioning itself to become the leader at everything.

/even ethnic cleansing
 
2019-03-13 10:08:53 PM  
I think we are going to hear from some whistleblowers inside of Boeing before this is all done. There or the FAA. Or both.

My gut tells me that people way up the food chain knew about this and they have been hoping to get a software patch applied before they started dropping out of the sky. And they didn't make it.

There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.
 
2019-03-13 10:12:26 PM  
Well, the story is mostly "speaking" about China acting on information that put passenger lives in real danger, but let's put a useless political spin on it, so that we hope the actions of the US administration in the matter look less damning.
 
2019-03-13 10:13:50 PM  
It's obviously the Bilderbergers downing these airplanes in order to make air travel seem hazardous, thus reducing demand in favor of rail and steamboat travel.
 
2019-03-13 10:15:04 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: I think we are going to hear from some whistleblowers inside of Boeing before this is all done. There or the FAA. Or both.

My gut tells me that people way up the food chain knew about this and they have been hoping to get a software patch applied before they started dropping out of the sky. And they didn't make it.

There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.


The problem with Challenger O-ring that caused it to explode was well-known by everyone for many years and incredibly well documented.  I think you are probably right.
 
2019-03-13 10:16:34 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.


I suspect the recommendation (heads-up) for the grounding was relayed to the President very early on and it was stalled by the President until the last minute.
 
2019-03-13 10:18:59 PM  
Meh, China's move is tainted by the political motivations behind their actions.
 
2019-03-13 10:20:25 PM  
They'll have to sell a lot more planes before they replace the US.
 
2019-03-13 10:20:26 PM  

pup.socket: Well, the story is mostly "speaking" about China acting on information that put passenger lives in real danger, but let's put a useless political spin on it, so that we hope the actions of the US administration in the matter look less damning.


There is nothing anyone can say that can make this administration look good in this. Nothing.

Waiting 4 days, and only after a possible link between the 2 previous crashes is announced, do they ground them? Nah. They should have all been grounded by the FAA within hours of the 2nd crash.

Congress (preferably the House) needs to drag both Boeing and the FAA in and get some explanations as to why they weren't ordered to the hangers.

Its a good thing those boxes went to France than the US. Because that is the only way the truth is going to come out about what they contain.
 
2019-03-13 10:20:47 PM  
China's boldness signals a new level of confidence in its institutional authority within the world of commercial aviation. But it speaks to something else, too: the country's ambition to own the skies.

They can start by fixing Air China (pretty much the worst major airline) and getting the PLA to give up some of the 70% of their domestic airspace that's controlled by the military.

I can't wait for Daxing to open up. Hopefully that will help alleviate some of the congestion, even if it means my connection options through Beijing are going to be more limited.
 
2019-03-13 10:23:56 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: There is nothing anyone can say that can make this administration look good in this. Nothing.


Obviously, but let's see if that'll stop them from trying, though.
 
2019-03-13 10:24:09 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.


The FAA grounds based on facts, not coincidence.  Until there was some information linking the cradles that was more definitive than "both aircraft list control shortly after take-off," there was little to work with in building a regulatory case.
 
2019-03-13 10:24:45 PM  

Bloody William: pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.

"We have better pilots, so it doesn't matter if our government dragged its feet on grounding planes with significant, dangerous flaws" is a new take on all of this. I'm impressed.


The racist America is full of can do "right stuff" compared to those monkey backwaters theme is really really strong among Boeing fans.

I've read about the FAA virtually being on Boeing's payroll for a long time. This basically seals it. it was very telling that the Ethiopians rejected Americans being the lead investigators on this crash. Apparently a larger than normal FAA contingent showed up to "help" the NTSB.
 
2019-03-13 10:26:35 PM  

wildcardjack: It's obviously the Bilderbergers downing these airplanes in order to make air travel seem hazardous, thus reducing demand in favor of rail and steamboat travel.


A good way to sour the Boeing brand to ease the blowback from the coming Boeing  SLS cancelation, to boot.
https://www.space.com/nasa-2020-budge​t​-request-sls-megarocket.html
 
2019-03-13 10:28:22 PM  

mrshowrules: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

I suspect the recommendation (heads-up) for the grounding was relayed to the President very early on and it was stalled by the President until the last minute.


The FAA wouldn't need Trump's approval to ground planes, I wouldn't think. They might give him a heads up as a courtesy, but I doubt they need his approval.

If he interfered in that decision, the motherfarker should be shot at sun-up. That is literally endangering 10's of thousands of lives (going in and out of major population centers) to keep a political ally from looking bad.
 
2019-03-13 10:29:50 PM  

mrshowrules: The risk is lower with far fewer people on board.


From what I've seen on the technical side, the two crashes are nearly identical (satellite information confirmed that) and involve a system that was added to compensate for the plane's tendency to nose up.  So, I don't think anyone would fly them even for freight.
 
2019-03-13 10:33:09 PM  

pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.


And meanwhile China will continue to surpass the USA in pretty much all aspects anymore.
For a country, yours is a "has been"
 
2019-03-13 10:34:49 PM  

Name_Omitted: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

The FAA grounds based on facts, not coincidence.  Until there was some information linking the cradles that was more definitive than "both aircraft list control shortly after take-off," there was little to work with in building a regulatory case.


How farkin' many have to fall out of the air before they go "Hey, something doesn't seem right here"? You make it sound like 15 or 20 could go down and if they can't pinpoint a reason, we can't order them grounded. That's just farkin' ignorant.

Don't give me this bullshiat about them needing facts. 2 downed aircraft in 5 months, at least 5 pilots on record as complaining about the issue. That's fact enough.

They should have been grounded and complete inspections, tail to nose, every single component checked.

Like I said, someone knew about this. Hell, Boeing has even said they had been working on it, but passed blame on to the shutdown as slowing them down. They knew there was a problem. Don't farkin' tell me they didn't.
 
2019-03-13 10:35:41 PM  

Rigger1955: pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.

And meanwhile China will continue to surpass the USA in pretty much all aspects anymore.
For a country, yours is a "has been"


Yeah, the world loves totalitarian dictatorships.
 
2019-03-13 10:35:49 PM  
Doesn't seem like a particularly bold move. With all the stuff going back and forth regarding trade and Huawei I'm sure this was just as attractive as it was sensible. If no other country joined in they would still be playing it for leverage.
 
2019-03-13 10:38:21 PM  
Sum Ting Wong!
 
2019-03-13 10:40:16 PM  

Marine1: They'll have to sell a lot more planes before they replace the US.


Re sell a lot of planes.  Not the most important point at all.  Over the next 20 years, China will buy 75% of the world's commercial planes.
China may never sell many planes, but who's planes are they gonna buy?  Boeing CrashMax 8 & Boeing SuperCrash?
 
2019-03-13 10:43:47 PM  

Rigger1955: pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.

And meanwhile China will continue to surpass the USA in pretty much all aspects anymore.
For a country, yours is a "has been"


Whatever...never was...except for smug...man you guys are serious assholes now.
 
2019-03-13 10:44:32 PM  

Marine1: They'll have to sell a lot more planes before they replace the US.


China has a LOT of 737s in service.

And COMAC has a narrowbody twin already on the production line.

This could be a tremendous opportunity if the 737 Max is grounded for any length of time.  It's pretty much a guarentee than the big 4 Chinese airlines will be buying local to replace their 737s as they age out.  But if confidence is shaken, a bunch of discounted COMAC C919's along with a nice trade package will go a long way to penetrating the SE Asian market.

Boeing's best hope for medium-long term survival is the corruption and incompetence of the Beijing cliques.  Which to be fair is even money.  But closer than I think anyone in the American aerospace industry would be happy with.
 
2019-03-13 10:45:42 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

...

You make it sound like 15 or 20 could go down and if they can't pinpoint a reason, we can't order them grounded. That's just farkin' ignorant.

Don't give me this bullshiat about them needing facts. 2 downed aircraft in 5 months, at least 5 pilots on record as complaining about the issue. That's fact enough.


I was not making an argument that there was not enough data to ground the fleet, I'm saying that it takes more than just hearing about a second crash that may be related.

We don't generally allow single people to hold the authority to make decisions that can have sweeping effects on our transportation system alone.  It takes some time to collect data. It's the result is several choices we've made that prevents personal fiefdoms within our government.
 
2019-03-13 10:45:47 PM  

Polartank13: Rigger1955: pxsteel: themindiswatching: Yeah, being the very last f*cking country to ground them isn't a good look at all. Especially when the company in question's been bribing lobbying the government not to do anything.

US pilots get a lot more training than most countries and therefore are better at handling problems when they arise.  Boing will figure out what the glitch is and the planes will be back in the air.

And meanwhile China will continue to surpass the USA in pretty much all aspects anymore.
For a country, yours is a "has been"

Whatever...never was...except for smug...man you guys are serious assholes now.


Now?
 
2019-03-13 10:46:00 PM  

J_Kushner: Marine1: They'll have to sell a lot more planes before they replace the US.

Re sell a lot of planes.  Not the most important point at all.  Over the next 20 years, China will buy 75% of the world's commercial planes.
China may never sell many planes, but who's planes are they gonna buy?  Boeing CrashMax 8 & Boeing SuperCrash?


They're going to buy their own planes.  There might be some token purchases from Airbus or Boeing to grease the trade wheels... but when you own both the plants and the airlines (or rather the shell corporations that own their assets) it makes negotiations a lot smoother.
 
2019-03-13 10:47:49 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: China played a pivotal role in instituting the shutdown. Not long ago, it would have been unthinkable for the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) to jump ahead of America's Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in flagging a global safety concern

Trump dropped a giant turd in the international punch bowl.  China is going to make us EAT that turd.


TRUMP is the turd in the punch bowl.
 
2019-03-13 10:51:33 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: mrshowrules: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

I suspect the recommendation (heads-up) for the grounding was relayed to the President very early on and it was stalled by the President until the last minute.

The FAA wouldn't need Trump's approval to ground planes, I wouldn't think. They might give him a heads up as a courtesy, but I doubt they need his approval.

If he interfered in that decision, the motherfarker should be shot at sun-up. That is literally endangering 10's of thousands of lives (going in and out of major population centers) to keep a political ally from looking bad.


Remember that the current head of the DoT is Mrs. Turtle. Of course they need his permission. Under a real a distraction, that wouldn't be the case.
 
2019-03-13 10:52:04 PM  

iron_city_ap: Farkin_Crazy: mrshowrules: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

I suspect the recommendation (heads-up) for the grounding was relayed to the President very early on and it was stalled by the President until the last minute.

The FAA wouldn't need Trump's approval to ground planes, I wouldn't think. They might give him a heads up as a courtesy, but I doubt they need his approval.

If he interfered in that decision, the motherfarker should be shot at sun-up. That is literally endangering 10's of thousands of lives (going in and out of major population centers) to keep a political ally from looking bad.

Remember that the current head of the DoT is Mrs. Turtle. Of course they need his permission. Under a real a distraction, that wouldn't be the case.


Administration not distraction
 
2019-03-13 10:55:14 PM  
I guess the Chinese won't be stealing and copying those blueprints then.
 
2019-03-13 10:56:10 PM  

mrshowrules: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

I suspect the recommendation (heads-up) for the grounding was relayed to the President very early on and it was stalled by the President until the last minute.


Boeing certified it themselves, they didn't need to wait for the FAA to do it. People were noting the similarities between this one and LION air within hours of the crash. They were right.
 
2019-03-13 10:58:42 PM  

wildcardjack: It's obviously the Bilderbergers downing these airplanes in order to make air travel seem hazardous, thus reducing demand in favor of rail and steamboat travel.


[Gasps, adjusts monacle]
 
2019-03-13 10:59:31 PM  
I wonder who took possession of the data recorders after the Indonesian crash. Indonesia or the US?
 
2019-03-13 11:03:05 PM  
OH noes! How will Al Gore fly around spreading awareness of global warming now? End of the world is 2030, people! We gotta take some chances. What would Jake Gyllenhaal do?
 
2019-03-13 11:04:30 PM  
Eh, I'm guessing something in the software. It's always software.
 
2019-03-13 11:13:15 PM  

Marine1: They'll have to sell a lot more planes before they replace the US.


Well, they already make almost all of your smartphones, comms equipment, PC's, laptops, etc., So they're well on the way...
 
2019-03-13 11:19:08 PM  

stirfrybry: OH noes! How will Al Gore fly around spreading awareness of global warming now? End of the world is 2030, people! We gotta take some chances. What would Jake Gyllenhaal do?


Instead of devoting time and energy to "owning the libs" Jake Gyllenhaal popped Taylor Swift's cherry.

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2019-03-13 11:22:37 PM  

Name_Omitted: Farkin_Crazy: Farkin_Crazy: There is no reason for the FAA not to have immediately grounded these planes the minute they heard about the 2nd crash. None whatsoever.

...

You make it sound like 15 or 20 could go down and if they can't pinpoint a reason, we can't order them grounded. That's just farkin' ignorant.

Don't give me this bullshiat about them needing facts. 2 downed aircraft in 5 months, at least 5 pilots on record as complaining about the issue. That's fact enough.

I was not making an argument that there was not enough data to ground the fleet, I'm saying that it takes more than just hearing about a second crash that may be related.

We don't generally allow single people to hold the authority to make decisions that can have sweeping effects on our transportation system alone.  It takes some time to collect data. It's the result is several choices we've made that prevents personal fiefdoms within our government.


Boeing knew there was a problem with stalling and nose diving long ago. Problem is, they consciously decided not to inform pilots about it. And the FAA was aware of that.

Pilots flying Boeing's 737 MAX for American Airlines and Southwest Airlines were not informed during training about a key change to an automatic system that's been linked to the fatal crash of a Lion Air jet last month, according to pilot representatives at both airlines.
Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said Monday the airline and the pilots "were kept in the dark."

"We do not like the fact that a new system was put on the aircraft and wasn't disclosed to anyone or put in the manuals," he said in an interview. What's more, he noted, Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration have now warned "that the system may not be performing as it should."

"Is there anything else on the MAX Boeing has not told the operators?" he added. "If there is, we need to be informed."

In order to protect against a possible stall on the MAX, Boeing made a change to a flight-control system so that it automatically pushes the nose of the aircraft down when a bladelike sensor that sticks out of the fuselage indicates that the nose is pitched up and putting the plane in danger of a stall
.

There needs to be some people at Boeing and in the FAA headed to prison for this shiat.
 
2019-03-13 11:31:35 PM  

The Zen Philosopher Basho: stirfrybry: OH noes! How will Al Gore fly around spreading awareness of global warming now? End of the world is 2030, people! We gotta take some chances. What would Jake Gyllenhaal do?

Instead of devoting time and energy to "owning the libs" Jake Gyllenhaal popped Taylor Swift's cherry.

[i.imgur.com image 320x240]


That's indeed a revelation to me. Good for Jake. I bet her nether regions smell like a rose.
 
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